ROMANS 8 EXPLAINED

[1stCenturyLady]

Paul says in Romans 7...the sin I would not do...I do. So then that isn't willful sinning. That is sinning through weakness. Also Paul says here...it isn't I who desire to sin but it is the power of sin in my members.


The law of sin!

Now, most Christians i know still sin...

Is that not your experience?

1 John 3:4 talks of sin being lawlessness. Those are sins unto death. In the OT there wasn't even a sacrifice that would cover them. So, no, I do not believe Romans 7 is a Christian. Galatians 5:19-21 seems to go along with the fight of Spirit vs flesh. What do you believe 'not inheriting the Kingdom of God means?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

1 John 3:4 talks of sin being lawlessness. Those are sins unto death. In the OT there wasn't even a sacrifice that would cover them. So, no, I do not believe Romans 7 is a Christian. Galatians 5:19-21 seems to go along with the fight of Spirit vs flesh. What do you believe 'not inheriting the Kingdom of God means?

Something doesn't seem quite right to me. I get where you say breaking God's law is sin unto death. (The soul that sins must die. All men sin, therefore all men must die.) I have sinned, therefore I must die.

where does Jesus come in and what makes His Sacrifice any different than all the other sacrifices? I get that i must still physically die because I am in a condemned building. Even if I never sinned again, (which at this point is doubtful considering that anger in my heart is murder) that building is still condemned.

So where is any good news for me? The willful part you mention is a mashed up mess in me, because in my mind I can convince myself of all sorts of justifications ( he made me do it because he was so rude to me, she is being obscenely selfish and not caring about anyone else in the house, etc., etc.) And those are fig leaves
So I can convince myself I wasn't willfully sinning and it was some one ELSE'S fault that I murdered them in my heart. But if I deceive myself in that way, can I escape by saying it wasn't willful because I hid the sin in my heart from myself? If I lie long enough, I start believing the lie to be true. But it didn't work for ada m and eve, so why on earth would it work for me?

I'm rattling on. I just think something in what you say is not right. Where is any help for me?

 

[bbyrd009]

Where is any help for me?

recognize death in baptism imo

 

[Episkopos]

There are at least 3 different kinds of sins...and many sins fall into one of these categories.

A person can sin through weakness, ignorance, pride...etc...

Jesus died for all these types of sins. We can be forgiven all...but we must move forward...repent after sinning...and continue to move forward.

God decides when the process ends. Of course we also have a say in this by our attitude. We can turn what is supposed to be more or less a straight line into a never ending merry-go-round. I'm not saying that God will endure this kind of attitude for too long.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

recognize death in baptism imo

Or maybe just trust that He will make me what He said He will?

 

[H. Richard]

Another way to look at it is, many in church identify with Romans 7 because they are not born again. They battle the flesh with the flesh using nothing but law as their motive. We have a false legalistic gospel today they wield as a substitute for the Ten Commandments.

But in the power of the Holy Spirit, we overcome the flesh and even retrain it to a degree. We seldom sin outwardly, but battle temptation on a daily basis. But like 1stCentury said, we really do not want to sin and seek to avoid it.

***

How can they identify with Romans 7 if they were not born again and did not have two natures?

No child of God WANTS TO SIN but it is a fact that the sinful bodies they live in DO SIN. If you say you have no sin then according to scripture the truth is not in you.

 

[Dave L]

***

How can they identify with Romans 7 if they were not born again and did not have two natures?

No child of God WANTS TO SIN but it is a fact that the sinful bodies they live in DO SIN. If you say you have no sin then according to scripture the truth is not in you.

Paul tells what it is like trying to keep the law as an unregenerate Jew in Romans 7. He tells what it is like being a born again Jew walking in the Spirit instead in Galatians 3.

 

[bbyrd009]

Or maybe just trust that He will make me what He said He will?

seek your own salvation imo, and see that He also said "twice the sons of hell you are" and "seven worse spirits."

God is not going to make anyone do anything imo, except reap what they sow

 

[Episkopos]

***

How can they identify with Romans 7 if they were not born again and did not have two natures?

No child of God WANTS TO SIN but it is a fact that the sinful bodies they live in DO SIN. If you say you have no sin then according to scripture the truth is not in you.

Paul transitions from...it is no longer I who sins but sin in me....to...it is no longer I but Christ who lives in me.

Does Christ sin?

If it is no longer I, (the person that sins that is) who lives...but Christ????

When we put on Christ we cannot sin...as John says. But every man sins of himself. In us (according to the flesh) dwells no good thing.

But to say that we must still sin in Christ is unbelief and false doctrine.

 

[Episkopos]

seek your own salvation imo, and see that He also said "twice the sons of hell" and "seven worse spirits."

God is not going to make anyone do anything imo, except reap what they sow

But if we sow to the Spirit....we shall also reap of the Spirit. Here we see that reaping and sowing is not just in the natural world...but also the spiritual heavenly realm.

How do we sow to the Spirit? By faith.

 

[bbyrd009]

But if we sow to the Spirit....we shall also reap of the Spirit. Here we see that reaping and sowing is not just in the natural world...but also the spiritual heavenly realm.

How do we sow to the Spirit? By faith.

yes, unfort we apparently justify ourselves the same way i guess

 

[Dave L]

seek your own salvation imo, and see that He also said "twice the sons of hell you are" and "seven worse spirits."

God is not going to make anyone do anything imo, except reap what they sow

“Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12–13)

 

[Episkopos]

yes, unfort we apparently justify ourselves the same way i guess

People justify themselves for NOT sowing to the Spirit and not BECAUSE they did. A person who sows to the Spirit waits on God....not people. Our justification comes from above...not from ourselves who think our own faith or belief is sufficient for salvation.

If our faith were sufficient for salvation...then we would enter immediately into the heavenly realm. If our sacrifice is accepted by God...will fire not come down to consume it? God intervenes to justify us...or not.

 

[bbyrd009]

If our sacrifice is accepted by God...will fire not come down to consume it?

i would have to say no? so just using diff terms still maybe, dunno

 

[larry2]

Where is any help for me?

Dear stunnedbygrace, take stock in the user name you’ve selected, and realize its usefulness to your future, especially if you can believe God’s sacrifice for you.

Help? God has provided His grace for you, all at great cost, and especially love for you. Without judgment, I ask you to examine Romans chapter seven, and Paul’s testimony in Christ. Remember the word grace, grace, & grace.

Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus!!! Believe it and you’ll begin experiencing peace.
Although we’re being molded into the very image of our Savior (Rom 8:29), there’s an old saying: “Be patient with me, God ain’t finished with me yet.”

How does our Father see us? In Christ without sin, and blessed unto the day of redemption. When we believe on the Lord Jesus, we are born of God, have become a son and heir, and 1Jn 5:18 tells us: We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but He (Jesus) that is begotten of God keepeth himself (us), and that wicked one (Satan) toucheth him not.

Eph 4:30 (Believe it or not) . . . ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. (Believing this will give you freedom to walk with God in love, and the freedom from fear.) King David put it like this in: Psa 51:12, Restore unto me the joy of Thy salvation; and uphold me with Thy free spirit.

I pray this helps some. Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[Episkopos]

i would have to say no? so just using diff terms still maybe, dunno

In your experience up till now....wadr!

 

[H. Richard]

Paul transitions from...it is no longer I who sins but sin in me....to...it is no longer I but Christ who lives in me.

Does Christ sin?

If it is no longer I who live...the person that sins that is.

When we put on Christ we cannot sin...as John says. But every man sins of himself. In us (according to the flesh) dwells no good thing.

But to say that we must still sin in Christ is unbelief and false doctrine.

No one is saying that a child of God sins in Christ as you have indicated. That is a false charge.

IMHO -- Paul recognized that a born again child of God has two natures. No one is saying (as you indicated) that a child of God sins in the spirit, but it seems that there are those that just can't see that they still sin in their bodies with a sinful nature. The child of God does not worry about their sinful nature because Jesus has already saved them from it's condemnation. Not by making the sinful body sinless but by paying for it's sins on the cross. That is why Paul and the child of God thanks Jesus for saving them from the condemnation of their sinful flesh.

 

[Episkopos]

No one is saying that a child of God sins in Christ as you have indicated. That is a false charge.

IMHO -- Paul recognized that a born again child of God has two natures. No one is saying (as you indicated) that a child of God sins in the spirit, but it seems that there are those that just can't see that they still sin in their bodies with a sinful nature. The child of God does not worry about their sinful nature because Jesus has already saved them from it's condemnation. Not by making the sinful body sinless but by paying for it's sins on the cross. That is why Paul and the child of God thanks Jesus for saving them from the condemnation of their sinful flesh.

The irony here is that you are denying Romans 8...because you are stuck in Romans 7. We are to put to death the deeds of the flesh (sin) through the Spirit. THAT is what life in Christ is all about. That is what Romans 8 is all about.

You are preaching a powerless gospel here, as so many do. The power that raised Jesus from the dead is SUFFICIENT to stop us from sinning. His grace is sufficient for His will in us.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Richard, what do you make of this : if we abide in Him we do not sin.

 

[H. Richard]

Paul transitions from...it is no longer I who sins but sin in me....to...it is no longer I but Christ who lives in me.

Does Christ sin?

If it is no longer I, (the person that sins that is) who lives...but Christ????

When we put on Christ we cannot sin...as John says. But every man sins of himself. In us (according to the flesh) dwells no good thing.

But to say that we must still sin in Christ is unbelief and false doctrine.

There is no transition. A child of God still lives in a sinful body of flesh.