ROMANS 8 EXPLAINED

[Episkopos]

There is no transition. A child of God still lives in a sinful body of flesh.

But we have this treasure in earthen vessels. Gnosticism backs up your kind of reasoning. It is a reasoning that denies the active power of God in one who has been accepted into the Beloved.

 

[Episkopos]

1 John 3:9 “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”

This is written by the same man you have misquoted to mean we can sin IN Christ.

 

[bbyrd009]

In your experience up till now....wadr!

seems to me you are mixing concepts there, but i dunno

 

[H. Richard]

The irony here is that you are denying Romans 8...because you are stuck in Romans 7. We are to put to death the deeds of the flesh (sin) through the Spirit. THAT is what life in Christ is all about. That is what Romans 8 is all about.

You are preaching a powerless gospel here, as so many do. The power that raised Jesus from the dead is SUFFICIENT to stop us from sinning. His grace is sufficient for His will in us.

I am not denying anything of the sorts except your idea that Jesus is making your sinful flesh into non-sinful flesh.

You claim your power to not sin in the flesh. I claim the power of the cross which has set me free from the condemnation of my sinful flesh.. Not by giving ME the power but by His power. He has imputed me with His righteousness.

Salvation is the work of Jesus on the cross for all those that trust in it. Like Paul I can say I thank God who has saved me from the condemnation of my sinful body.

 

[Episkopos]

seems to me you are mixing concepts there, but i dunno

We can only perceive according to our experience. Otherwise faith is required.

 

[Episkopos]

I am not denying anything of the sorts except your idea that Jesus is making your sinful flesh into non-sinful flesh.

You claim your power to not sin in the flesh. I claim the power of the cross which has set me free from the condemnation of my sinful flesh.. Not by giving ME the power but by His power. He has imputed me with His righteousness.

Salvation is the work of Jesus on the cross for all those that trust in it. Like Paul I can say I thank God who has saved me from the condemnation of my sinful body.

Jesus put on this flesh, yet He was sinless. When we put on Christ we are equipped in the very same way as Jesus was in His time here.

1 John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Richard, I wanted to hear your thoughts on verse a few posts ago. Just wanted to be sure you didn't miss it.

 

[Episkopos]

Hopefully we are getting around to the title of the OP...just sayin'

 

[H. Richard]

1 John 3:9 “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”

This is written by the same man you have misquoted to mean we can sin IN Christ.

Just keep up your lies. NO ONE HAS SAID THAT A CHILD OF GOD SINS IN CHRIST. But everyone, including the child of God sins in their sinful flesh.

By the way, if you keep up this idea after this then you are committed sins of the flesh.

But I think you and some others just will not see that Romans 7 is valid for the born again child of God because you dismiss it as being before he was saved.

 

[bbyrd009]

We can only perceive according to our experience. Otherwise faith is required.

well that's maybe deep, ty, but really doesn't address that the two concepts of Living Sacrifice and Sacrifice Burned Up conflated will be at odds with Works Burned Up in God's Fire at some point?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Something doesn't seem quite right to me. I get where you say breaking God's law is sin unto death. (The soul that sins must die. All men sin, therefore all men must die.) I have sinned, therefore I must die.

where does Jesus come in and what makes His Sacrifice any different than all the other sacrifices? I get that i must still physically die because I am in a condemned building. Even if I never sinned again, (which at this point is doubtful considering that anger in my heart is murder) that building is still condemned.

So where is any good news for me? The willful part you mention is a mashed up mess in me, because in my mind I can convince myself of all sorts of justifications ( he made me do it because he was so rude to me, she is being obscenely selfish and not caring about anyone else in the house, etc., etc.) And those are fig leaves
So I can convince myself I wasn't willfully sinning and it was some one ELSE'S fault that I murdered them in my heart. But if I deceive myself in that way, can I escape by saying it wasn't willful because I hid the sin in my heart from myself? If I lie long enough, I start believing the lie to be true. But it didn't work for ada m and eve, so why on earth would it work for me?

I'm rattling on. I just think something in what you say is not right. Where is any help for me?

The blood of bulls and goats merely covered our sin, while it remained under the blood. It never went away, but was there year after year. But there was no sacrifice at all for the breaking of any of the Ten Commandments. They usually killed them, or put them outside the camp. If someone committed adultery, both were stoned to death. If someone murdered, he himself was killed. Although, if someone stole, they had to repay in kind, but in multiples, so the victim could be relived. Killing them wouldn't serve the victim at all.

The blood of Jesus on the other hand took away the sin altogether, it doesn't remain. Thus, no sin, no punishment.

Anger is not a sin. The word says, "Be angry, and sin not." Jesus got very angry, yet never sinned. Remember when he turned over the tables of the money changers? His anger was righteous indignation, and when we get angry, it is usually over an injustice. Right? That is not sin. The word also says to not let the sun go down on our anger. So if we are angry with someone, we must try to reconcile with them. If they won't reconcile, we need to take another with us to them. If that still doesn't work, they are brought before the congregation. We must act, and not let a root of bitterness enter our peace.

Righteous indignation is not murder.

Does that help?

 

[Episkopos]

Just keep up your lies. NO ONE HAS SAID THAT A CHILD OF GOD SINS IN CHRIST. But everyone, including the child of God sins in their sinful flesh.

This is the schizoid teaching of gnosticism. Very popular in the early days...since people could not understand grace...just like today.

The flesh is not sinful in itself. It is the POWER of the flesh which is sinful.

You are ignoring and obfuscating here. Jesus walked in OUR kind of flesh. He was like us. And we can be just like Him IN HIm



The rest is just unbelief on your part.

Dispensationalism brings unbelief.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Just keep up your lies. NO ONE HAS SAID THAT A CHILD OF GOD SINS IN CHRIST. But everyone, including the child of God sins in their sinful flesh.

By the way, if you keep up this idea after this then you are committed sins of the flesh.

But I think you and some others just will not see that Romans 7 is valid for the born again child of God because you dismiss it as being before he was saved.

I'm curious to know what Romans 8:9 mean to you? Also, what does not inheriting the Kingdom of God in Galatians 5:19-21 mean to you.

cc: @Episkopos, you never answer this second question.

 

[Episkopos]

The flesh...of itself...is just weak. We have very limited faculties....being without spiritual faculties.

When the flesh begins to assert itself...sin comes into being.
But the meek shall inherit the earth.

 

[H. Richard]

I'm curious to know what Romans 8:9 mean to you? Also, what does not inheriting the Kingdom of God in Galatians 5:19-21 mean to you.

cc: @Episkopos, you never answer this second question.

You will not believe my answers because you will not see them as answers.

You and some others are telling everyone that you do not sin in the flesh because you now have the power to not sin in the flesh.
According to the scriptures if a person says they have no sin then they are lying. I will go with this and I don't see much point in discussing things with a person that lies.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

You will not believe my answers because you will not see them as answers.

You and some others are telling everyone that you do not sin in the flesh because you now have the power to not sin in the flesh.
According to the scriptures if a person says they have no sin then they are lying. I will go with this and I don't see much point in discussing things with a person that lies.

It doesn't matter if I don't believe your answers does it? I just want to know what you believe those scriptures mean, or don't you even have an answer, and are just too proud to show ignorance?

I'm also curious how old you are? Maybe you are too young to know anything.

 

[Episkopos]

I'm curious to know what Romans 8:9 mean to you? Also, what does not inheriting the Kingdom of God in Galatians 5:19-21 mean to you.

cc: @Episkopos, you never answer this second question.

The works of the flesh? What of them? No one inherits the kingdom by the works of the flesh.

 

[H. Richard]

Richard, what do you make of this : if we abide in Him we do not sin.

We abide in Him by faith in Him. Meaning faith, belief, trust, and confidence in His work on the cross where He paid for our sins of the flesh.

A child of God has been spiritually placed in Christ by the Holy Spirit. It is our spirit that is placed in Christ and since He is sinless so are our spirits.

But our sinful flesh is still sinful. This is the weakness of the law. The law does not save, it condemns. But God has made a plan of salvation called grace that saves sinners (the ungodly). It doesn't make the flesh sinless and it will die but the spirit will live forever with Jesus.

OUR ARK: (the “in Christ” doctrine)

2 Cor 1:19-22
19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us-- by me, Silvanus, and Timothy-- was not Yes and No, but in Him was Yes.
20 For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us.
21 Now He who establishes us with you ""in Christ"" and has anointed us is God,
22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
(NKJ)

I look at the words ""in Christ"" and think of them in reference to Noah and the flood.

Noah was told by God to build an Ark. It was built by human hands (Noah’s hands). The waters of God‘s wrath in the flood did not touch Noah and those with him. Noah, by his choice, obeyed God and went into the Ark he had built. --- The waters of the flood were the judgment of God on a sinful world full of sinful people. That does not mean that Noah was sinless. It means Noah believed what God told him.

Today there is another Ark. It is “”NOT”” built by human hands. It is built by the hands (will) of God. - Man can not go into the Ark that God has built by his own efforts (will). He must be placed in God’s Ark (Jesus) by God (the Holy Spirit). God places a person in the Ark (Jesus) He built when that person places their faith, trust and confidence in Jesus’ work on the cross to save him/her. -- This Ark that God has built carries those in it safely over the sins “THEY” commit in their flesh. Their sins can not touch them since they have been atoned (paid) for by the blood of Jesus on the cross.

Jesus Christ is OUR ARK, and just as those in Noah's Ark were kept from the waters of the flood, we who are placed ""in Christ,"" by God, and are kept from the judgment of the law. If we are not ""in Christ"" the law condemns us.

I believe what Paul said when he penned the words ""in Christ."" I also believe that we are placed ""in Christ"" by God. It is an operation of the Holy Spirit (God).

 

[Episkopos]

We abide in Him by faith in Him. Meaning faith, belief, trust, and confidence in His work on the cross where He paid for our sins of the flesh.

A child of God has been spiritually placed in Christ by the Holy Spirit. It is our spirit that is placed in Christ and since He is sinless so are our spirits.

But our sinful flesh is still sinful. This is the weakness of the law. The law does not save, it condemns. But God has made a plan of salvation called grace that saves sinners (the ungodly). It doesn't make the flesh sinless and it will die but the spirit will live forever with Jesus.

OUR ARK: (the “in Christ” doctrine)

2 Cor 1:19-22
19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us-- by me, Silvanus, and Timothy-- was not Yes and No, but in Him was Yes.
20 For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us.
21 Now He who establishes us with you ""in Christ"" and has anointed us is God,
22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
(NKJ)

I look at the words ""in Christ"" and think of them in reference to Noah and the flood.

Noah was told by God to build an Ark. It was built by human hands (Noah’s hands). The waters of God‘s wrath in the flood did not touch Noah and those with him. Noah, by his choice, obeyed God and went into the Ark he had built. --- The waters of the flood were the judgment of God on a sinful world full of sinful people. That does not mean that Noah was sinless. It means Noah believed what God told him.

Today there is another Ark. It is “”NOT”” built by human hands. It is built by the hands (will) of God. - Man can not go into the Ark that God has built by his own efforts (will). He must be placed in God’s Ark (Jesus) by God (the Holy Spirit). God places a person in the Ark (Jesus) He built when that person places their faith, trust and confidence in Jesus’ work on the cross to save him/her. -- This Ark that God has built carries those in it safely over the sins “THEY” commit in their flesh. Their sins can not touch them since they have been atoned (paid) for by the blood of Jesus on the cross.

Jesus Christ is OUR ARK, and just as those in Noah's Ark were kept from the waters of the flood, we who are placed ""in Christ,"" by God, and are kept from the judgment of the law. If we are not ""in Christ"" the law condemns us.

I believe what Paul said when he penned the words ""in Christ."" I also believe that we are placed ""in Christ"" by God. It is an operation of the Holy Spirit (God).

Gnosticism 101

I think Bono put it well when he sang..."I don't believe in the gun that just went off in my hand"

It's 21st century schizoid man! (think King Crimson)

 

[stunnedbygrace]

We abide in Him by faith in Him. Meaning faith, belief, trust, and confidence in His work on the cross where He paid for our sins of the flesh.

A child of God has been spiritually placed in Christ by the Holy Spirit. It is our spirit that is placed in Christ and since He is sinless so are our spirits.

But our sinful flesh is still sinful. This is the weakness of the law. The law does not save, it condemns. But God has made a plan of salvation called grace that saves sinners (the ungodly). It doesn't make the flesh sinless and it will die but the spirit will live forever with Jesus.

OUR ARK: (the “in Christ” doctrine)

2 Cor 1:19-22
19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us-- by me, Silvanus, and Timothy-- was not Yes and No, but in Him was Yes.
20 For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us.
21 Now He who establishes us with you ""in Christ"" and has anointed us is God,
22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
(NKJ)

I look at the words ""in Christ"" and think of them in reference to Noah and the flood.

Noah was told by God to build an Ark. It was built by human hands (Noah’s hands). The waters of God‘s wrath in the flood did not touch Noah and those with him. Noah, by his choice, obeyed God and went into the Ark he had built. --- The waters of the flood were the judgment of God on a sinful world full of sinful people. That does not mean that Noah was sinless. It means Noah believed what God told him.

Today there is another Ark. It is “”NOT”” built by human hands. It is built by the hands (will) of God. - Man can not go into the Ark that God has built by his own efforts (will). He must be placed in God’s Ark (Jesus) by God (the Holy Spirit). God places a person in the Ark (Jesus) He built when that person places their faith, trust and confidence in Jesus’ work on the cross to save him/her. -- This Ark that God has built carries those in it safely over the sins “THEY” commit in their flesh. Their sins can not touch them since they have been atoned (paid) for by the blood of Jesus on the cross.

Jesus Christ is OUR ARK, and just as those in Noah's Ark were kept from the waters of the flood, we who are placed ""in Christ,"" by God, and are kept from the judgment of the law. If we are not ""in Christ"" the law condemns us.

I believe what Paul said when he penned the words ""in Christ."" I also believe that we are placed ""in Christ"" by God. It is an operation of the Holy Spirit (God).

I agree that to abide in Him means to trust Him.
So then the verse could be said this way: anyone who trusts in Him does not sin.

So then my mind says: but I DO trust in Him...But I do still sin, so...the verse cannot be correct.
But I know the verse MUST be correct!

So then my mind says: okay, I have to come at the verse from this direction: it is the truth because God said it. So...when I do sin, I must not be abiding (trusting) in Him, but in something else.