ROMANS 8 EXPLAINED

[Episkopos]

#2
Salvation is not "the prize" Paul already had it when he wrote "I press toward the Prize of the high calling...."
Even James and John knew this, when they said- "can we sit on your right and left hand in the kingdom..." Jesus said...that is not my call, but my fathers call.

The 'prize' is our placement in the kingdom...for that we run daily.

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I think this is kind of right...but for some issues.....that 1st century Lady is seeing as well.

It depends on what you mean by "saved" and "in the kingdom".

If you believe a person can be saved in a state of eternal loss...as in naked and shamed...then OK that's still salvation.

But I find that most people just use "saved" to mean that everything's going to be great and all the promises are guaranteed to be MINE!!! (emphasis mine...or MINE)

I see salvation AT THIS TIME (drop the status thing for the moment) in the PLACE where Jesus dwells. Salvation is ALWAYS in HIS presence.

So if you think there is life away from God's presence....so do a lot of people. But you get to the point where you see LIFE as only having value in it's eternal form...ie...when it is drawn from Jesus Himself. To me, THAT is salvation. It is the present walk of victory over sin, the devil and the world.

Then there is a future salvation where those who have been faithful TILL THE END...will inherit the promises or not.

That is a separate issue.

I think most believers confuse these two time periods....not realizing the race they are in at this time. A person who thinks they have won already and cannot possibly be disqualified will not run as one who runs to win.

So we are to walk by faith NOW...entering into the Spirit as our salvation from the world.

And we are to walk in the hope of an eternal inheritance. Confident that what we are walking into is worth more than what we see and hear today.....even when we are not walking in the spiritual realm.

FAITH for NOW......HOPE for the FUTURE. There is no such thing as faith for the future. That is a man-made doctrine.

So how many confuse faith and hope?

 

[Episkopos]

In my view, the spiritual walk is about location, location, location.

Heb. 12:22 But you are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Statements such as these show a depth of walk that few indeed will be able to tolerate let alone strive for. There is a spiritual walk IN Zion....that Jesus says is for they who believe TO Him. Jesus is in a location...Zion. He has gone to make spiritual abodes there. And we can go to Him WHERE He is. THAT is what salvation looks like now.

Those who walk there are the Bride of Christ.....and overcomers who will rule with Him.

To me, THAT is the salvation we are to strive for.

 

[Helen]

@Episkopos I was using "saved" the way I believe she was...ie "a believer"

 

[Episkopos]

@Episkopos I was using "saved" the way I believe she was...ie "a believer"

I am very careful with Christianese....or Christian sounding buzzwords. Once we get in the habit of replacing an accurate biblical statement with the religious jargon of our times...well it's a slippery slope as they say.

To me, "saved" is not a status. One can be a believer, even a disciple...but "saved"?

What does that even mean?

A guarantee of some kind?

Do athletes competing in the Olympics go there with any other guarantee than the chance to compete? And even then it is health permitting.

So then the outcome is not as sure as many think it is.

We see through a glass darkly...no?

 

[Helen]

To me, "saved" is not a status. One can be a believer, even a disciple...but "saved"?

What does that even mean?

A guarantee of some kind?

NT. the greek word sozo which has been translated in the New Testament the following ways:

1. save or saved
2. whole
3. healed
4. preserve
5. well

To save from death
To be healed
Salvation

 

[Episkopos]

NT. the greek word sozo which has been translated in the New Testament the following ways:

1. save or saved
2. whole
3. healed
4. preserve
5. well

To save from death
To be healed
Salvation

Exactly! So if I have a sore knee and it is healed...I have been saved. Is that the same as becoming like Jesus?

Paul said "you cannot be saved unless you remain in the ship!" in Acts. (I am kind of surprised that a sect has not arisen that lives on ships thinking that this is the only way to be saved)

So we can see the confusion that buzzwords create.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I am very careful with Christianese....or Christian sounding buzzwords. Once we get in the habit of replacing an accurate biblical statement with the religious jargon of our times...well it's a slippery slope as they say.

To me, "saved" is not a status. One can be a believer, even a disciple...but "saved"?

What does that even mean?

A guarantee of some kind?

Do athletes competing in the Olynpics go there with any other guarantee than the chance to compete? And even then it is health permitting.

So then the outcome is not as sure as many think it is.

We see through a glass darkly...no?

I see "saved" as assurance of eternal life. That to me is NOT OSAS, but something we need to keep in check. Otherwise, if OSAS why the fear and trembling in working out our own salvation?

1 John 3:18-22
18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.

This has a verse I would like someone to explain. I'm not sure what John's saying in 20. 22 I see as a kind of self-test.

 

[Episkopos]

I see "saved" as assurance of eternal life. That to me is NOT OSAS, but something we need to keep in check. Otherwise, if OSAS why the fear and trembling in working out our own salvation?

1 John 3:18-22
18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.

This has a verse I would like someone to explain. I'm not sure what John's saying in 20. 22 I see as a kind of self-test.

I think...for all the grief that this will cause on judgment day...that we should not assume anything. So many have been sold a lie on this subject.

To me the proof of salvation is to walk in the salvation of a new life by the Spirit. And that is not to mean that 'I'M" saved for ever because of this.

There is only One Salvation.

That is to be in Christ.

So if we walk as Jesus walked in the same power and light...then we can say we are walking in the salvation of the Lord. But i would never say..."NOW I'm saved". To me, such talk is gratuitous and foolish.

Wait, I say, on the Lord.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I think...for all the grief that this will cause on judgment day...that we should not assume anything. So many have been sold a lie on this subject.

To me the proof of salvation is to walk in the salvation of a new life by the Spirit. And that is not to mean that 'I'M" saved for ever because of this.

There is only One Salvation.

That is to be in Christ.

So if we walk as Jesus walked in the same power and light...then we can say we are walking in the salvation of the Lord. But i would never say..."NOW I'm saved". To me, such talk is gratuitous and foolish.

Wait, I say, on the Lord.

I believe the OSAS doctrine is full of error, however, if one has no way of knowing assurance along the way, then we live in fear. The error comes in the level of test. The OSAS believes as Luther did and taught, that not even committing murder and adultery multiple times a day could make you at risk of damnation.

 

[Episkopos]

I believe the OSAS doctrine is full of error, however, if one has no way of knowing assurance along the way, then we live in fear. The error comes in the level of test. The OSAS believes as Luther did and taught, that committing murder and adultery multiple times could make you at risk of damnation.

It is simple to just work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. That is the way of it for those who can abide it.

Most people would rather abide a convenient lie than an obvious truth.

I prefer the raw truth of it!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

It is simple to just work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. That is the way of it for those who can abide it.

Most people would rather abide a convenient lie than an obvious truth.

I prefer the raw truth of it!

I do too. I prefer to err on the side of holiness, which is why I never dated after my Christian husband left me. Not even after Christians told me I was free. But how does one "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling?

 

[Episkopos]

I do too. I prefer to err on the side of holiness, which is why I never dated after my Christian husband left me. Not even after Christians told me I was free. But how does one "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling?

Good on you!

Well because you wish to not transgress holiness...you are well on your way working out your salvation...in my books.

I believe that the fear of the Lord keeps us lean...it keeps us in the race. It causes us to not rest on our laurels or be satisfied with a status that says it's ok, whereby can be slack now...we're saved already.

I don't mind competing against those who think they won already. But these are supposed to be a team whereby we run together for the prize.

I see that we are running against other times and places. We will be compared with the diligence of the early church. We will be compared to all they who have run the race with faith and courage.

Can we compare ourselves to the saints of old?

This is why we fear and tremble...lest we are not worthy of the same calling as they had.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Good on you!

Well because you wish to not transgress holiness...you are well on your way working out your salvation...in my books.

I believe that the fear of the Lord keeps us lean...it keeps us in the race. It causes us to not rest on our laurels or be satisfied with a status that says it's ok, whereby can be slack now...we're saved already.

I don't mind competing against those who think they won already. But these are supposed to be a team whereby we run together for the prize.

I see that we are running against other times and places. We will be compared with the diligence of the early church. We will be compared to all they who have run the race with faith and courage.

Can we compare ourselves to the saints of old?

This is why we fear and tremble...lest we are not worthy of the same calling as they had.

One reason why I chose my profile name is comparing the church to the 1st century. How does our present church compare? The present church is almost like big business and self gratification. Those in the first century would see that as extortion and not even have lunch with some of the televangelists of today.

My biggest sin I see as laziness/slothfulness. It is out of avoiding pain. At 71 I've had some injuries, and the only time I'm pain free is when I'm sitting or lying down. I can only stand or walk for no more than 5 minutes. And, of course, with no help-mate things have piled up. Not many people know of my plight, but the two that do, never help out. They have their own lives, so I understand, but sometimes I find myself comparing them to how I helped people I saw in need when I was able. Pride. They only give advice on how I can get a handle on it. These sins cause fear in me of my eternal standing. I'm also very low on funds, and must find a job or prepare to sell my house. That preparation seems insurmountable. I know worry is a sin, so try to avoid being anxious. I also avoid asking anyone for help because of the two I have told and have been rejected. Please pray I find a sit-down job that can lighten this burden.

 

[Episkopos]

One reason why I chose my profile name is comparing the church to the 1st century. How does our present church compare? The present church is almost like big business and self gratification. Those in the first century would see that as extortion and not even have lunch with some of the televangelists of today.

My biggest sin I see as laziness/slothfulness. It is out of avoiding pain. At 71 I've had some injuries, and the only time I'm pain free is when I'm sitting or lying down. I can only stand or walk for no more than 5 minutes. And, of course, with no help-mate things have piled up. Not many people know of my plight, but the two that do, never help out. They have their own lives, so I understand, but sometimes I find myself comparing them to how I helped people I saw in need when I was able. Pride. These sins cause fear in me of my eternal standing. I'm also very low on funds, and must find a job or prepare to sell my house. That preparation seems insurmountable. I know worry is a sin, so try to avoid being anxious. I also avoid asking anyone for help because of the two I have told and have been rejected. Please pray I find a sit-down job that can lighten this burden.

I will pray for you, sister.

I agree that we can't fall into the slothfulness of the modern religious establishment. We need to watch and pray like never before.

If only you lived in Canada. We have a women's house.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I will pray for you, sister.

I agree that we can't fall into the slothfulness of the modern religious establishment. We need to watch and pray like never before.

If only you lived in Canada. We have a women's house.

So you agree I am sinning - slothfulness. I thought so, too.

 

[Episkopos]

So you agree I am sinning - slothfulness. I thought so, too.

Not at all..At your age...you shouldn't need to work to sustain yourself. Is there no spiritual community in your area that will take you in?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Not at all..At your age...you shouldn't need to work to sustain yourself. Is there no spiritual community in your area that will take you in?

I go to a food bank once a month. But any kind of move would be overwhelming. I'll just do a little here, a little there. And trust God that I can pay my bills with SS. And find a sit-down type job using a computer.

 

[FHII]

So H. Richard... You covered verses 1 - 13... Got more? I think some of the questions raised will benefit from whats coming next.

 

[Helen]

So, all this talk of "sins"
...what IS sin?

In anything and everything we do...
Sin is anything that is not 'of faith'.
" for whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

 

[farouk]

One reason why I chose my profile name is comparing the church to the 1st century. How does our present church compare? The present church is almost like big business and self gratification. Those in the first century would see that as extortion and not even have lunch with some of the televangelists of today.

Good, sober reflection there...