Rome vs Melchizedek

[Stranger]

1) [SIZE=11pt]The faithful who are still alive at the 2nd Coming of Christ will indeed be caught up in the air to meet the Lord.[/SIZE]

2) [SIZE=11pt]I’ve already answered this – repeatedly.[/SIZE]

There are NO Goat or Sheep “Nations”. Sheep and Goats refer to INDIVIDUALS. I’ve also told you several times that there will NOT be a 2nd and 3rd Coming of Christ. He’s only coming ONE more time, which is described in 1 Thess. 4:17.

Please don’t ask me to repeat either of these answers this again.

3) [SIZE=11pt]You are NOT part of the Catholic Church, as you have repeatedly repudiated the Church. How can you be PART of the Church if you reject it??

You may be part of one of the tens of thousands of disjointed, perpetually-splintering Protestant sects who ALL teach different doctrines but ALL claim to have the “Truth”. These are splinters of the Church who have separated themselves FROM it. It is not the ONE, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church built by Jesus.[/SIZE]

4) [SIZE=11pt]2 Cor. 5:10[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] refers to the GENERAL Judgment – and it’s NOT only about rewards.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]It’s also about punishment:[/SIZE]

2 Cor. 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good OR bad.

[SIZE=11pt]As for [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]1 Cor.3:11-15[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] – it is about JUDGMENT, period.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]IF the persons works of “wood, hay or stubble” are burned up, it says:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]“But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Yes, their works are burned up - but the PERSON will be saved but that PERSON will suffer “AS THROUGH FIRE.”
[/SIZE]
5) You keep referring to the “Thousand Years” as if it were a literal span of time. The “Thousand years” is metaphorical for a “LONG time”. Hardly ANYTHING in Revelation is literal. The thousand years began when Jesus ascended into Heaven.

In Scripture - a “thousand” is usually metaphorical and NOT literal. We read in Psalm 50:10 that God owns the cattle "on a thousand hills.”
Ummmm, WHO owns the cattle on hill number 1001??
God owns the cattle on ALL of the hills on earth. “1000” is symbolic of this.

Finally – ALL thrones spoken of in regards to Judgment are in Heaven.
YOU think of Heaven as something that has boundaries and restrictions to size and time. You have a very immature and limited view of Heaven and of God’s power.

1.) If the faithful are raptured at the Second Coming, then who are the believing individuals who make up the sheep nations on the earth and enter into the kingdom on earth? Your claim that the 1000 years is a metaphor is incorrect. Two types of people are addressed concerning this time period. (Rev.20:4-6) During the 1000 year reign one group of people reign with Christ. But the rest of the dead were not resurrected until after the 1000 years. Unless you say the people are a metaphor also.

2.) The point of this question was the destination of Christ. In one, He meets the believers in the air. In another, He comes to the earth. Different locations, different judgments.

3.) I have never repudiated the Catholic Church. I am part of the Catholic Church.

4.) (2Cor. 5:10) is a judgment of reward or loss of reward. It is a judgment of rewards. (1Cor 3:11-15) is the same judgment of reward as (2Cor.5:10). It is the 'works' that are tried and burnt. (1Cor.3:13-15) Not the believer.

5.) As I said earlier, you can't make the 1000 year reign a metaphor without making the two distinct people a metaphor also. So do you? You're mistaken, there is much that is literal in Revelation. The millennial throne will be on earth. As will the judgments of the sheep and goat nations. But the Great White Throne Judgment is neither in Heaven or Earth, as both fled from this judgment. (Rev. 20:11)

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

THIS is what you said in post #301:
"No, it is not an oxymoron because all that is required of Christ's true Church is that faith in Him as the Son of God and Saviour. That is all that is required....but that is required."

You mentioned nothing about the necessity of Baptism.
Do you agree that Baptism is required for salvation, as Jesus says in Mark 16:16?

I was addressing Mungo concerning post #306. Not #301.

Stranger

 

[Mungo]

Mungo

Comprehension. I didn't say baptism doesn't save. What did I say?

Stranger

You said:
"Baptism saves no on, as far as heaven and hell. Your first reference to (1 Peter 3:20-21) proves it."

But Baptism does save us regarding Heaven and Hell and 1Pet 3:20-21 doesn't prove otherwise.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I was addressing Mungo concerning post #306. Not #301.

Stranger

Fair enough.

In post #306, YOU said:
"Baptism saves no on, as far as heaven and hell."

I've already shown you that Jesus disagrees with you in Mark 16:16 . . .

 

[tabletalk]

Thanks to BreadOfLife for this one: " ...perpetually-splintering Protestant sects..." Say that fast, 10 times!

 

[BreadOfLife]

1.) If the faithful are raptured at the Second Coming, then who are the believing individuals who make up the sheep nations on the earth and enter into the kingdom on earth? Your claim that the 1000 years is a metaphor is incorrect. Two types of people are addressed concerning this time period. (Rev.20:4-6) During the 1000 year reign one group of people reign with Christ. But the rest of the dead were not resurrected until after the 1000 years. Unless you say the people are a metaphor also.

2.) The point of this question was the destination of Christ. In one, He meets the believers in the air. In another, He comes to the earth. Different locations, different judgments.

3.) I have never repudiated the Catholic Church. I am part of the Catholic Church.

4.) (2Cor. 5:10) is a judgment of reward or loss of reward. It is a judgment of rewards. (1Cor 3:11-15) is the same judgment of reward as (2Cor.5:10). It is the 'works' that are tried and burnt. (1Cor.3:13-15) Not the believer.

5.) As I said earlier, you can't make the 1000 year reign a metaphor without making the two distinct people a metaphor also. So do you? You're mistaken, there is much that is literal in Revelation. The millennial throne will be on earth. As will the judgments of the sheep and goat nations. But the Great White Throne Judgment is neither in Heaven or Earth, as both fled from this judgment. (Rev. 20:11)

Stranger

1.) One more time: There is NO earthly 1000 year reign after the 2nd Coming.

2.) We will be changed in an instant and meet the Lord in the air. It doesn't say that we STAY in the air with Jesus.

3.) Really?? What Parish do you attend? Who is your Bishop?

4.) WRONG. 2 Cor. 5:10 talks about everybody being judged for the good and the BAD that they did while i. the body.
It is about reward for those who did good and punishment for those who did bad. 1 Cor. 3:13-15 is about the individual being judged and whether they will be saved or NOT saved.
Those who ARE saved but whose works were that or "wood, hay and stubble" must be SUFFER through purification first.

5.) Again - you have exposed your Scriptural bankruptcy here. We're IN the so-called "millennium".
As I've shown you - "1000 years" is simply a way of illustrating a "long time". I even gave you an example from Psalm 10:10 - which you completely blew off . . .

 

[Stranger]

1.) One more time: There is NO earthly 1000 year reign after the 2nd Coming.

2.) We will be changed in an instant and meet the Lord in the air. It doesn't say that we STAY in the air with Jesus.

3.) Really?? What Parish do you attend? Who is your Bishop?

4.) WRONG. 2 Cor. 5:10 talks about everybody being judged for the good and the BAD that they did while i. the body.
It is about reward for those who did good and punishment for those who did bad. 1 Cor. 3:13-15 is about the individual being judged and whether they will be saved or NOT saved.
Those who ARE saved but whose works were that or "wood, hay and stubble" must be SUFFER through purification first.

5.) Again - you have exposed your Scriptural bankruptcy here. We're IN the so-called "millennium".
As I've shown you - "1000 years" is simply a way of illustrating a "long time". I even gave you an example from Psalm 10:10 - which you completely blew off . . .

1.) Says you, not Scripture. Again, who are the two types of people addressed?

2.) This is strange indeed. It says '1000'. But that according to you doesn't mean '1000'. It says 'in the air' . But, according to you the faithful don't stay in the air. So, according to you, it says something, but that isn't really what is being said. It doesn't say something, but that is really what it means. With rules of interpretation like that, you can make it say whatever you want. Which is what you do.

3.) I don't have a parish or a bishop, or a pope. Who said that is part of the Catholic Church? Who is your Pastor/Teacher? Who are your Elders in the Church. Who are your Deacons? Better yet, who are your Saints? These are all part of the Catholic Church, of which I am part of.

4.) You haven't proved any 'everybody' at this judgment. This is a judgment of believers for what they have done in their body while on earth. It is a judgment of a gain or loss of rewards. The question of saved or not saved was already decided. See (1Cor.3:11-12) "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation..." This is believers building upon the foundation of their faith, Jesus Christ. It is a judgment of works built upon the foundation of Christ. Their works are judged. Not themselves.

5.) Who says we are in the millennium? You? Again, who are the living and the dead on each side of the millennium? Are they metaphors? There is a judgment in the air where believers are raptured to Christ. (1Thess. 4:17) There is a judgment of the sheep and goat nations on earth to enter the millennium. (Matt. 25:32) There is the Great White Throne Judgment which is not on earth or in heaven. (Rev.20:11)

Concerning your explanation of the '1000' year reign meaning a long time, it does nothing to explain the two types of people on both sides of the 1000 year reign. Come on...dream up something. Use your imagination. Wax eloquently.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Fair enough.

In post #306, YOU said:
"Baptism saves no on, as far as heaven and hell."

I've already shown you that Jesus disagrees with you in Mark 16:16 . . .

Jesus does not disagree. He said, in Mark 16:16 "...he that believeth not shall be damned". And I agree.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

You said:
"Baptism saves no on, as far as heaven and hell. Your first reference to (1 Peter 3:20-21) proves it."

But Baptism does save us regarding Heaven and Hell and 1Pet 3:20-21 doesn't prove otherwise.

Heaven and hell are not the subject in (1Peter 3:20-21) The eight souls that were saved by water were already believers. That is why they were in the ark. The waters of the flood saved them like baptism saves us, destroying the worlds affect on us and giving us the answer of a good conscience toward God. Baptism is important in our walk of salvation. Not in getting us from a lost to a saved state. Baptism is part of our salvation that we work out with fear and trembling while on earth. (Philp. 2:12)

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

Jesus does not disagree. He said, in Mark 16:16 "...he that believeth not shall be damned". And I agree.

Stranger

You conveniently left out the FIRST part of what He said:
"He who believes and is BAPTIZED will be saved . . ."

If ONLY belief was required - He would have said so . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

1.) Says you, not Scripture. Again, who are the two types of people addressed?

2.) This is strange indeed. It says '1000'. But that according to you doesn't mean '1000'. It says 'in the air' . But, according to you the faithful don't stay in the air. So, according to you, it says something, but that isn't really what is being said. It doesn't say something, but that is really what it means. With rules of interpretation like that, you can make it say whatever you want. Which is what you do.

3.) I don't have a parish or a bishop, or a pope. Who said that is part of the Catholic Church? Who is your Pastor/Teacher? Who are your Elders in the Church. Who are your Deacons? Better yet, who are your Saints? These are all part of the Catholic Church, of which I am part of.

4.) You haven't proved any 'everybody' at this judgment. This is a judgment of believers for what they have done in their body while on earth. It is a judgment of a gain or loss of rewards. The question of saved or not saved was already decided. See (1Cor.3:11-12) "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation..." This is believers building upon the foundation of their faith, Jesus Christ. It is a judgment of works built upon the foundation of Christ. Their works are judged. Not themselves.

5.) Who says we are in the millennium? You? Again, who are the living and the dead on each side of the millennium? Are they metaphors? There is a judgment in the air where believers are raptured to Christ. (1Thess. 4:17) There is a judgment of the sheep and goat nations on earth to enter the millennium. (Matt. 25:32) There is the Great White Throne Judgment which is not on earth or in heaven. (Rev.20:11)

Concerning your explanation of the '1000' year reign meaning a long time, it does nothing to explain the two types of people on both sides of the 1000 year reign. Come on...dream up something. Use your imagination. Wax eloquently.

Stranger

1.) We can't have an intelligent conversation about this until you are able to grasp that there are no "Goat Nations" or "Sheep Nations".
The Bible NEVER mentions these weird countries of yours . . .

2.) Really??
What does Psalm 10:10 mean when it talks about a "Thousand years"??

3.) Without Bishops - you have no Catholic Church. Without a Pope you have no Catholic Church.
The Apostles were the original Bishops of the Church (Acts 1:20). Peter was the first Pope (Matt. 16:18-19).

YOU belong to one of the almost 50,000 perpetually-splintering sects who teach different doctrines yet ALL claim to have the "Truth".
What a mess you've all made . . .

4.) 2 Cor. 5:10 explicitly says:
For we must ALL appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or BAD.

You don't get rewarded for doing "BAD" things.
WHO taught you that you do??

5.) BOTH Judgments take place in Heaven.
Wherever there is God on a Throne in the Bible - it is ALWAYS in Heaven.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Heaven and hell are not the subject in (1Peter 3:20-21) The eight souls that were saved by water were already believers. That is why they were in the ark. The waters of the flood saved them like baptism saves us, destroying the worlds affect on us and giving us the answer of a good conscience toward God. Baptism is important in our walk of salvation. Not in getting us from a lost to a saved state. Baptism is part of our salvation that we work out with fear and trembling while on earth. (Philp. 2:12)

Stranger

The ark and the Water spoken of in 1 Pet. 3:20-21 is being COMPARED to the saving value of Baptism.
Are you really so dense that you actually believe that Peter is making a straight physical comparison??

 

[Stranger]

1.) We can't have an intelligent conversation about this until you are able to grasp that there are no "Goat Nations" or "Sheep Nations".
The Bible NEVER mentions these weird countries of yours . . .

2.) Really??
What does Psalm 10:10 mean when it talks about a "Thousand years"??

3.) Without Bishops - you have no Catholic Church. Without a Pope you have no Catholic Church.
The Apostles were the original Bishops of the Church (Acts 1:20). Peter was the first Pope (Matt. 16:18-19).

YOU belong to one of the almost 50,000 perpetually-splintering sects who teach different doctrines yet ALL claim to have the "Truth".
What a mess you've all made . . .

4.) 2 Cor. 5:10 explicitly says:
For we must ALL appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or BAD.

You don't get rewarded for doing "BAD" things.
WHO taught you that you do??

5.) BOTH Judgments take place in Heaven.
Wherever there is God on a Throne in the Bible - it is ALWAYS in Heaven.

1.) Again, who are the two types of people addressed?

2.) We're not talking about (Ps. 10:10). We're talking about (Rev. 20:4-6).

3.) No, the Catholic Church exists without the pope. Without Rome. So, again, who is your pastor/teacher, elders, deacons, saints?

4.) Yes, I know, you get a loss of rewards. All else is burnt up. But not the believer. Praise God.

5.) But that is not what Scripture says. And you have not proved otherwise. You just state it. That's easy.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

The ark and the Water spoken of in 1 Pet. 3:20-21 is being COMPARED to the saving value of Baptism.
Are you really so dense that you actually believe that Peter is making a straight physical comparison??

No, the water is the saving value of Baptism. Not the ark. Scripture is clear. " saved by water" Was Noah and his family believers or not? Don't tell me,....it's just a metaphor....sure.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

You conveniently left out the FIRST part of what He said:
"He who believes and is BAPTIZED will be saved . . ."

If ONLY belief was required - He would have said so . . .

You conveniently left out the FIRST part of what He said:
"He who believes and is BAPTIZED will be saved . . ."

If ONLY belief was required - He would have said so . . .

He did say so when He said, "...he that believeth not shall be damned." Why didn't He say 'he that believeth not and is not baptized, will be damned." Because 'belief' is sufficient to be saved.

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

He did say so when He said, "...he that believeth not shall be damned." Why didn't He say 'he that believeth not and is not baptized, will be damned." Because 'belief' is sufficient to be saved.

Stranger

What an impotent response.
What's the opposite of "saved", pray tell? It's damned.

In Mark 16:16, Jesus says you MUST be baptized to be saved.
If you're NOT baptized - then you don't believe, ergo the second part of the verse . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, the water is the saving value of Baptism. Not the ark. Scripture is clear. " saved by water" Was Noah and his family believers or not? Don't tell me,....it's just a metaphor....sure.

Stranger

Here it is in CONTEXT - something that YOU cannot grasp.

1 Pet. 3:18-22
He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved THROUGH water, and this water SYMBOLIZES baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. IT (baptism) SAVES YOU by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

Noah and his family weren't saved BY the water - but THROUGH it.
They were saved by the Ark, whereas WE are saved by the waters of Baptism.

 

[BreadOfLife]

1.) Again, who are the two types of people addressed?

2.) We're not talking about (Ps. 10:10). We're talking about (Rev. 20:4-6).

3.) No, the Catholic Church exists without the pope. Without Rome. So, again, who is your pastor/teacher, elders, deacons, saints?

4.) Yes, I know, you get a loss of rewards. All else is burnt up. But not the believer. Praise God.

5.) But that is not what Scripture says. And you have not proved otherwise. You just state it. That's easy.

Stranger

1.) Sheep and goats is a metaphor for good and bad people - faithful and unfaithful. It's NOT about countries.
God doesn't judge us on a curve - no matter what your sect taught you.

2.) No - we're talking about Biblical metaphors as in the comparison between Psalm 10:10 and Rev. 20:4-6.
Just as a "thousand" years is metaphorical in Psalms 10:10 - the same is true for Rev. 20:4-6.

3.) WRONG. the Apostles were Bishops - and the Church doesn't exist without Bishops.
Pull out your little Greek Concordance and look up Acts 1:20. It says about Judas, ". . . may another take his EPISKPOAY (BISHOPRIC).

4.) Nobody said the believer gets burned up. He is saved - "but only as through FIRE."
This is a perfect illustration of the Purgatorial fire.

5.) ONE more time:
BOTH Judgments take place in Heaven.
Wherever there is God on a Throne in the Bible - it is ALWAYS in Heaven.

If YOU can show me an example of god sitting on a Throne OTHER than in Heaven - I'm ALL ears . . .

 

[Stranger]

1.) Sheep and goats is a metaphor for good and bad people - faithful and unfaithful. It's NOT about countries.
God doesn't judge us on a curve - no matter what your sect taught you.

2.) No - we're talking about Biblical metaphors as in the comparison between Psalm 10:10 and Rev. 20:4-6.
Just as a "thousand" years is metaphorical in Psalms 10:10 - the same is true for Rev. 20:4-6.

3.) WRONG. the Apostles were Bishops - and the Church doesn't exist without Bishops.
Pull out your little Greek Concordance and look up Acts 1:20. It says about Judas, ". . . may another take his EPISKPOAY (BISHOPRIC).

4.) Nobody said the believer gets burned up. He is saved - "but only as through FIRE."
This is a perfect illustration of the Purgatorial fire.

5.) ONE more time:
BOTH Judgments take place in Heaven.
Wherever there is God on a Throne in the Bible - it is ALWAYS in Heaven.

If YOU can show me an example of god sitting on a Throne OTHER than in Heaven - I'm ALL ears . . .

1.) The two types of people I am speaking of are those of the sheep nations before the thousand year reign of Christ, and those raised after the thousand years. (Rev. 20:4-6) So who are they?

2.) I don't see it in (Ps. 10:10)

3.) Yes, the Church does have the office of bishop. Just not an office for a pope. The Church already exists. Even if not every church has bishops. And, again, do you have pastor/teachers, elders, deacons, saints?

4.) (2Cor. 5:10) and (1Cor.3:11-15) is a judgment of reward only. (14-15) "he shall receive a reward...he shall suffer loss" . The foundation is already laid, (11). The believer is building on it. Therefore this is a different judgment than that of (Matt.25:32) and (Rev. 20:11-15).

5.) The judgment in (Matt. 25:32) takes place on earth. The judgement of rewards takes place in the air. (2Cor.5:10), (1Cor.3:11-15), (1Thess.4:13-17) The Great White Throne judgement is neither in heaven or earth. (Rev. 20:11)

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

What an impotent response.
What's the opposite of "saved", pray tell? It's damned.

In Mark 16:16, Jesus says you MUST be baptized to be saved.
If you're NOT baptized - then you don't believe, ergo the second part of the verse . . .

The opposite of 'saved' is 'not saved'. Not 'damned'. It all depends on the salvation you are speaking of. The believer is saved from the penalty of sin which is his initial salvation. He then has a walk of salvation, being saved from the corruption and affect the world has on him in this life. He will be later completly saved from the sin in his body by being given a glorified body. Future day. So, you see, saved doesn't always mean being saved from eternity in hell.

No, (Mark 16:16) says that "He that believeth, and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." One can be a believer and be saved from his sins without water baptism. But I don't think one can walk in that salvation without being obedient to the Lord and getting baptized.

Stranger