Rome's 7 0F 10 Hills

[BibleScribe]

Thanks BS! I have never been opposed to double fulfillments for any prophecy, including this one. Indeed, I believe there are many double fulfillments for all prophecy, both figurative and physical fulfillments. My guess for a "physical fulfillment" for "that Great City", outside of Vatican City, would be Rome, however. The European Union started with the Treaty of Rome back in the 50's. More credence is brought to the table when you consider that the coming AC's nationality is Italian. However, I won't expand on that belief in this thread.

Hi Popeye,

I would observe that may have the expectation of a ~Revived Holy Roman Empire~, based upon the Daniel 2 sequence 4a/4b interpretation:

1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4a. Iron, Roman
4b. Clay with Iron, Revived Roman

Fortunately GOD clarifies this sequence in verse 45, which separates the Clay from the Iron (iron, bronze, clay, silver, gold, -- i.e., 4,3,5,2,1) such that there are FIVE distinct empires which history agrees:

1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4. Iron, Roman
5. Clay with Iron, "divided"

And if you'll observe wold history, the Roman Empire was lost to the dust-bin of history, but never conquered and replaced. Thus the Roman representative government model still survives as envisioned:


The foundation of this Roman Empire can be found in the structure of government -- the Senatus Populusque Romanus. This “Senate and the Roman People,” was comprised of the Consulate which had two consuls that served one year terms as co-chief executives; a Senate which had 300 members; and a Centuriate Assembly which provided representation for the commoners.[1] <br clear="all"> [1] Christopher, John B., and Robert Lee Wolf, A History of Civilization, Prentice-Hall, Englewood Cliffs, NJ, 1967, p 100



So not only do we retain this model in our government, but one can consider the Pledge of Allegiance: "... and to the Republic, for which it stands ...".




Or maybe GOD simply guessed at what the future might hold, and these aspects are mere coincidences. :lol:


BibleScribe

 

[Tsigano]

Fortunately GOD clarifies this sequence in verse 45, which separates the Clay from the Iron (iron, bronze, clay, silver, gold, -- i.e., 4,3,5,2,1) such that there are FIVE distinct empires which history agrees:

1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4. Iron, Roman
5. Clay with Iron, "divided"

And if you'll observe wold history, the Roman Empire was lost to the dust-bin of history, but never conquered and replaced. Thus the Roman representative government model still survives as envisioned:

Yh. I never thought of it like this... Makes sense and is true facts. Rome was the last great empire. We are a divide front nowadays. Would yet be more 100% fulfilled Bible prophecy.
Going off to read the verse to see wording where the clay & iron represents a 5th.
Thanks.


All in all it is Rome still being a major influence to the powers that be as we are approaching the last days.

I still think the kings mentioned in Rev 13 and on wards are different kings mentioned in Daniel and Revelations 12. They are however a part of the same beast or some type of stem or stems from that beast (Rome).
Daniel was writing primarily to the Jews. Most of the Old Testament message to the Jews was prophecy and teaching concerning the coming of Christ yet many failed to see this and were expecting someone Proud and mighty of an Earthly understanding. John when he wrote Revelations was primarily speaking to the Church.

 

[popeye]

Hi Popeye,

I would observe that may have the expectation of a ~Revived Holy Roman Empire~, based upon the Daniel 2 sequence 4a/4b interpretation:

1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4a. Iron, Roman
4b. Clay with Iron, Revived Roman

Fortunately GOD clarifies this sequence in verse 45, which separates the Clay from the Iron (iron, bronze, clay, silver, gold, -- i.e., 4,3,5,2,1) such that there are FIVE distinct empires which history agrees:

1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4. Iron, Roman
5. Clay with Iron, "divided"

And if you'll observe wold history, the Roman Empire was lost to the dust-bin of history, but never conquered and replaced. Thus the Roman representative government model still survives as envisioned:


The foundation of this Roman Empire can be found in the structure of government -- the Senatus Populusque Romanus. This “Senate and the Roman People,” was comprised of the Consulate which had two consuls that served one year terms as co-chief executives; a Senate which had 300 members; and a Centuriate Assembly which provided representation for the commoners.[1] <br clear="all"> [1] Christopher, John B., and Robert Lee Wolf, A History of Civilization, Prentice-Hall, Englewood Cliffs, NJ, 1967, p 100



So not only do we retain this model in our government, but one can consider the Pledge of Allegiance: "... and to the Republic, for which it stands ...".




Or maybe GOD simply guessed at what the future might hold, and these aspects are mere coincidences. :lol:


BibleScribe

Once again, BS, our beliefs mesh. Good points on Daniel's statue!

Is anyone interested in why the nationality of the coming AC is Italian? It's direct from the pages of Daniel, in very direct fashion....and in a single statement.

Tsigano - Glad you're learning some good stuff....as am I!

 

[BibleScribe]

....
Daniel was writing primarily to the Jews. Most of the Old Testament message to the Jews was prophecy and teaching concerning the coming of Christ yet many failed to see this and were expecting someone Proud and mighty of an Earthly understanding. John when he wrote Revelations was primarily speaking to the Church.

Hi Tsigano,

If the commentators had obeyed the angelic instructions (Ref. Dan. 12:4 & Daniel 12:9), you wouldn't have been told ancient fulfillment lies. However, because you were fed these lies, you are now in a position of that error.

The truth is the book of Daniel is NOT written to the Jews, or the Church. It's written to the Nations. In fact if you consider Chapter 9, you should perceive that Daniel had to don the mantle of Jeremiah to prophecy to his own kinsmen. And so Chapters 2, 7, 8 & 11 pertain to the nations of the earth.


BibleScribe

Once again, BS, our beliefs mesh. Good points on Daniel's statue!

Is anyone interested in why the nationality of the coming AC is Italian? It's direct from the pages of Daniel, in very direct fashion....and in a single statement.

Tsigano - Glad you're learning some good stuff....as am I!

OK, Popeye, -- I'll bite, even though I not only know who the a/c is, but know the year he will take power.


BibleScribe

 

[popeye]

OK, Popeye, -- I'll bite, even though I not only know who the a/c is, but know the year he will take power.

BibleScribe

Check out your "bone of contention" from Daniel....Dan 9:26..."...and the PEOPLE of the PRINCE THAT SHALL COME shall DESTROY THE CITY and THE SANCTUARY...."

PEOPLE - Roman armies under Titus destroyed the Temple and Jerusalem in 70 AD. The Roman armies at this time in their history were predominately Italian.

PRINCE THAT SHALL COME - AntiChrist

Therefore, if the "people" of the "prince to come" are Italian, then AC must be Italian.


THAT SIMPLE!!

 

[BibleScribe]

Check out your "bone of contention" from Daniel....Dan 9:26..."...and the PEOPLE of the PRINCE THAT SHALL COME shall DESTROY THE CITY and THE SANCTUARY...."

PEOPLE - Roman armies under Titus destroyed the Temple and Jerusalem in 70 AD. The Roman armies at this time in their history were predominately Italian.

PRINCE THAT SHALL COME - AntiChrist

Therefore, if the "people" of the "prince to come" are Italian, then AC must be Italian.


THAT SIMPLE!!

Hey Popeye,

Cute, -- but no cigar.

However, if there were an entity with had NO geography, NO population, and NO army, then it would have to rely on other "people". And because we are instructed that the prophecies are shut up and sealed until the time of the end (i.e., 1948) and we know that the Roman Empire is already in the dust-bin of history, then certainly we could arrive to your premise where the ONLY available "people" would be the members of the U.N., and the "prince that shall come" shall arrive AFTER the seventy shibiym/shabuwa (plural/singular).

But per my suggestion in a previous post, -- Who are the ten nations which were determined in the Aug. 1993 vote? (HINT: They do NOT include Italy.)


BibleScribe

 

[veteran]

Vet-
There are some clues dropped in Rev 17 & 18 that debunks the idea that Bab the Great is a city. Indeed, the clues show us that it is a belief system, and not a physical place at all.

For instance:

Rev 17:4 - "a golden cup in her hand" - Catholicism, cup for taking the sacramental offering of Christ's blood
Rev 17:9 - "seven mountains on which the woman sits" - Catholicism, Vatican City
Rev 17:16 - "and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh and burn her with fire" - Catholicism, Vatican City and St. Peter's cathedral will be burned to the ground, her adherants cast into jail and killed during the GT.
Rev 18:5 - "her sins have reached unto heaven" - Catholicism's message concerned God, and they have corrupted that message through man-imposed ritual standards, calling the Pope and priests "father".
Rev 18:12 - "and fine linen" - fine linen is the material of the saints robes in heaven
Rev 18:13 - "and souls of men" - the catholic Church have corrupted the very souls of many of her adherants over the years.
Rev 18:14 - "and thy fruits thy soul lusted after are departed from thee" - Originally, the CC had good intentions to bear good fruit and therefore, good Christians.
Rev 18:16 - "that great city ( Vatican City ) that was clothed in fine linen" - Again, originally, the CC had good intentions to produce good Christians and in it's infancy was worthy to wear white clean linens.
Rev 18:23 - "and a light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee" - This statement says it all. The ONLY object that could truely satisfy this statement, is a Church or religion that is symbolized by a candlestick burning a flame of light and marriage ceremonies conducted within her organization and church walls.

Rev 17:18
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
(KJV)

Christ showed John it IS about a "great city", and it reigns over the kings of the earth.

The "seven heads" are seven mountains per our Lord. Rev.12:3-4 about the beast the red dragon drew a third of the stars with also had "seven heads". That beast was what Satan rebelled with of old, long... before Rome ever existed. The "seven heads" point to the whole earth, seven continents, not seven hills. One world globalism outstretches its power way over the Catholic Church and Rome, and the pope today. The globalists are no more listening to the pope than a man in the moon. Even the internationalists of the Club of Rome doesn't heed the Church in Rome.


Jer 51:7
7 Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD's hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.
(KJV)

The golden cup reference was to historical Babylon, not to Rome. In Rev.11, Christ refers to Jerusalem as Sodom and Egypt symbolically, pointing to Jerusalem in a fallen spiritual status against God. The whole matter is about the enemies of Christ setting up their "one world government" and "New World Order" over all the earth, not the Catholic faith which still does not have the amount of influence those globalists and secret societies of occult initiation have. The real enemy are not the Catholics or Rome. The real enemy are the servants of Satan here on earth that worship him de facto, and they are hiding in secret. They are the "synagogue of Satan".

The ten kings of Rev.17:16 represent the leaders the New World Order hosts plan to setup in power over the "seven heads" (i.e., all nations). They are USING religion as a basis to bring their final plans for world domination about. This is why Socialism has been so busy creeping into ALL religions on earth, including Christianity, both the Catholic Church and the Protestant Church. Part of the New World Order's plan is to rape all religions with deception in order to destroy all religions, and cause all to bow to 'their' 'king of the world' they plan to set up. That's why and how they hate the whore, because in Jerusalem is where the coming false messiah/Antichrist is going to be setup over all nations.

The Babylon harlot's sins reach up to Heaven because Jerusalem is where God has chosen to dwell forever. Our Heavenly Father is a jealous God like He said. When the false worship many of His Own will do in Jerusalem in the last days, to a false one coming to sit in Jerusalem in His Place, it's going to make Him very angry. Just as the historical king of Babylon did grave insult to God, likewise the same will occur when the coming false messiah is exalted in Jerusalem above all that is worshipped.

The fine linen is with the description of what merchants trade in Rev.18:12. That's another... pointer to one world globalists and their attempt to setup a "one world government", with a one world economic system over all peoples and nations. It's specifically the prophecy in Daniel about the false one coming to destroy using 'peace', and with craft prospering in his hand. The global market is not run by the Vatican, though it may take part just as a lot of Protestant Church systems also do.

The most corrupting of the souls of men is done by non-Christian elements in this world. Pointing to pagan Rome prior to the Roman Church would have fit Rome then, but not today, except for internationalist like the Club of Rome, yet those kind of internationalists groups don't just exist in Rome; they exist all over the world. Like Paul said, the love of money is the root of all evil. And one cannot get any more corrupt than literal worship of the devil, which is what the pagan secret societies are still doing today.


Rev 18:14-15
14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.
15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
(KJV)

Those fruits are linked with the working of those merchants, the rich and powerful of this world. That's who's really behind the big show. It was the same idea with world commerce in ancient times with the island city of Tyre, before God had it destroyed by Alexander's army. Satan's plan for the last days is to rape the wealth of God's people, that's what it's about. When the false messiah shows up in Jerusalem, with craft prospering in his hand, that's when Jerusalem is going to become a center of world commerce like that old island city of Tyre once was.

Rev 18:16-18
16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
(KJV)

That's what that fine linen is about, i.e., Jerusalem in a fallen spiritual state like the ancient city of Babylon, and as a place of world commerce like Tyre, with merchant ships coming and going.


Rev 18:20
20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
(KJV)

Once again, Rome was not who killed God's OT prophets. It was Jerusalem.

The idea of that "great city" as a candle is put for false worship, not true worship. Many Christian brethren are going to flock there thinking Christ has returned when that false messiah shows up proclaiming himself as God. So yet, there's going to be wedding there in Jerusalem when the false messiah arrives, but it will be a false wedding, which is what Jerusalem as a 'harlot' for the last days is about. A false king is coming to marry her instead of The LORD GOD.

These clues should show us that what we're talking about in Rev 17 & 18 is a Church. And THE ONLY CHURCH that could bear offspring ( albeit harlots ) is the Catholic Church from which were born PROTESTANT DENOMINATIONS, many of whom have also prostituted themselves to the ways of the world.

That final statement of yours is troublesome. It reveals you don't claim to be of either the Catholic Church nor the Protestant Church. To be a Christian one must be an offshoot of one of them. Thus, you must be coming from some form of Messianic Jew roots. So no wonder why you hate both the Catholic and Protestant Churches. You should spend more time looking at some of your own, like orthodox Judaism which is still on the old Pharisee traditions which Christ rebuked. Some of those elements are at the top of the food chain in attempting to destroy Christianity. I can understand why you fail to mention the idea of globalists and the merchants Rev.18 is pointing to. Many of them are orthodox Jews, and are right at the center of preparing the world for the coming false messiah.

 

[popeye]

Rev 17:18
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
(KJV)

Christ showed John it IS about a "great city", and it reigns over the kings of the earth.

The "seven heads" are seven mountains per our Lord. Rev.12:3-4 about the beast the red dragon drew a third of the stars with also had "seven heads". That beast was what Satan rebelled with of old, long... before Rome ever existed. The "seven heads" point to the whole earth, seven continents, not seven hills. One world globalism outstretches its power way over the Catholic Church and Rome, and the pope today. The globalists are no more listening to the pope than a man in the moon. Even the internationalists of the Club of Rome doesn't heed the Church in Rome.


Jer 51:7
7 Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD's hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.
(KJV)

The golden cup reference was to historical Babylon, not to Rome. In Rev.11, Christ refers to Jerusalem as Sodom and Egypt symbolically, pointing to Jerusalem in a fallen spiritual status against God. The whole matter is about the enemies of Christ setting up their "one world government" and "New World Order" over all the earth, not the Catholic faith which still does not have the amount of influence those globalists and secret societies of occult initiation have. The real enemy are not the Catholics or Rome. The real enemy are the servants of Satan here on earth that worship him de facto, and they are hiding in secret. They are the "synagogue of Satan".

The ten kings of Rev.17:16 represent the leaders the New World Order hosts plan to setup in power over the "seven heads" (i.e., all nations). They are USING religion as a basis to bring their final plans for world domination about. This is why Socialism has been so busy creeping into ALL religions on earth, including Christianity, both the Catholic Church and the Protestant Church. Part of the New World Order's plan is to rape all religions with deception in order to destroy all religions, and cause all to bow to 'their' 'king of the world' they plan to set up. That's why and how they hate the whore, because in Jerusalem is where the coming false messiah/Antichrist is going to be setup over all nations.

The Babylon harlot's sins reach up to Heaven because Jerusalem is where God has chosen to dwell forever. Our Heavenly Father is a jealous God like He said. When the false worship many of His Own will do in Jerusalem in the last days, to a false one coming to sit in Jerusalem in His Place, it's going to make Him very angry. Just as the historical king of Babylon did grave insult to God, likewise the same will occur when the coming false messiah is exalted in Jerusalem above all that is worshipped.

The fine linen is with the description of what merchants trade in Rev.18:12. That's another... pointer to one world globalists and their attempt to setup a "one world government", with a one world economic system over all peoples and nations. It's specifically the prophecy in Daniel about the false one coming to destroy using 'peace', and with craft prospering in his hand. The global market is not run by the Vatican, though it may take part just as a lot of Protestant Church systems also do.

The most corrupting of the souls of men is done by non-Christian elements in this world. Pointing to pagan Rome prior to the Roman Church would have fit Rome then, but not today, except for internationalist like the Club of Rome, yet those kind of internationalists groups don't just exist in Rome; they exist all over the world. Like Paul said, the love of money is the root of all evil. And one cannot get any more corrupt than literal worship of the devil, which is what the pagan secret societies are still doing today.


Rev 18:14-15
14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.
15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
(KJV)

Those fruits are linked with the working of those merchants, the rich and powerful of this world. That's who's really behind the big show. It was the same idea with world commerce in ancient times with the island city of Tyre, before God had it destroyed by Alexander's army. Satan's plan for the last days is to rape the wealth of God's people, that's what it's about. When the false messiah shows up in Jerusalem, with craft prospering in his hand, that's when Jerusalem is going to become a center of world commerce like that old island city of Tyre once was.

Rev 18:16-18
16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
(KJV)

That's what that fine linen is about, i.e., Jerusalem in a fallen spiritual state like the ancient city of Babylon, and as a place of world commerce like Tyre, with merchant ships coming and going.


Rev 18:20
20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
(KJV)

Once again, Rome was not who killed God's OT prophets. It was Jerusalem.

The idea of that "great city" as a candle is put for false worship, not true worship. Many Christian brethren are going to flock there thinking Christ has returned when that false messiah shows up proclaiming himself as God. So yet, there's going to be wedding there in Jerusalem when the false messiah arrives, but it will be a false wedding, which is what Jerusalem as a 'harlot' for the last days is about. A false king is coming to marry her instead of The LORD GOD.




That final statement of yours is troublesome. It reveals you don't claim to be of either the Catholic Church nor the Protestant Church. To be a Christian one must be an offshoot of one of them. Thus, you must be coming from some form of Messianic Jew roots. So no wonder why you hate both the Catholic and Protestant Churches. You should spend more time looking at some of your own, like orthodox Judaism which is still on the old Pharisee traditions which Christ rebuked. Some of those elements are at the top of the food chain in attempting to destroy Christianity. I can understand why you fail to mention the idea of globalists and the merchants Rev.18 is pointing to. Many of them are orthodox Jews, and are right at the center of preparing the world for the coming false messiah.

Please tell me you're not one of those conspiracy theorists who think there's a secret underground evil organization that pervades democratic governments in a patient game of subversive takeovers of governments of the world. If you are, then you've been watching too many Hollywood movies and/or listening to too many paranoid delusional christian extremists who believe these things. Frankly, if you want to see the transmission of evil working it's iniquity, you needn't go further than next door, or across the street to see it. Evil is pervading this world, and this country, OPENLY, and in full view of everyone. And to try and "force-fit" Jerusalem into a prophecy where candlesticks, lamps, clean linens, souls of men and golden cups are described is an attempt to complicate the obvious and confuse the masses similar to the way scholars try to impress us with their raw biblical knowledge with historical accounts and word derivations. Yet, they all lack understanding, and are slaves to prophetic dogma.

As to "hating Christian churches", I will only say that you're living in denial of The Truth. The Truth is The Truth whether it hurts to hear it or not. Indeed, the HIERARCHY of the Catholic and Protestant Churches of today have been corrupted to the ways of the world. This is NOT TO SAY many of their individual worshipers are not true Christians. But, they are members of mainstream christian organizations that have made a business of The Truth, rather than making The Truth their business. And if you know the central core message of the ET prophecies, then you know that end time christian churches OF EVERY DISTINCTION, throughout the entire Christian world, WILL COME TO THEIR END during the GT. Rev 17 & 18 is a prophecy especially taylored just for the end time christian church and it's inevitable destruction. Mainstream Christian organizations and Churches, under the rule of the AC and his national cohorts, will be obliterated from the face of the earth. And the power of The ET Church will then be transferred from the corrupted mainstream organizations into the capable hands of the individual Tribulation Saints shortly before the GT begins when the prophecy of Joel 2:28-32 is fulfilled.

BTW, I was baptized Episcopalian, raised Baptist, and married Methodist. But, I hold to know prophetic dogma, or end time doctrine of any Protestant or Catholic church.

 

[Tsigano]

Hi Tsigano,

If the commentators had obeyed the angelic instructions (Ref. Dan. 12:4 & Daniel 12:9), you wouldn't have been told ancient fulfillment lies. However, because you were fed these lies, you are now in a position of that error.

BibleScribe

lol

 

[BibleScribe]

BibleScribe, on 26 July 2011 - 09:32 AM, said:

Hi Tsigano,

If the commentators had obeyed the angelic instructions (Ref. Dan. 12:4 & Daniel 12:9), you wouldn't have been told ancient fulfillment lies. However, because you were fed these lies, you are now in a position of that error.

BibleScribe

lol

Did you want evidence for this position, or are you content with their prevarications?


BibleScribe




To All,

Please be aware that Scripture call us "sheep", which are among the dumbest of animals. And where sheep follow a trail, if you place a stick and trip one, the rest will jump, even after you remove the stick. So too after the commentators present their lies, the sheep continue to believe them, -- in spite of evidence to the contrary.

So for anyone with cognitive skills, please consider how the commentators ascribe the Daniel 7 Bear as the Medo/Persian Empire. And although the Medo/Persian Empire conquests NEVER fulfilled the three-ribs, or the dropping of the three-ribs to arise and devour much flesh, the uninformed masses still leap over the imaginary stick.

Toward this consideration I would cite that my father drove truck in the mid-west as a young man, and still today he recounts the frustration hauling those stupid sheep. And I can only hope that the church is not as stupid as the analogy which Jesus correctly assigned.


BibleScribe

 

[popeye]

Hey Popeye,

Cute, -- but no cigar.

However, if there were an entity with had NO geography, NO population, and NO army, then it would have to rely on other "people". And because we are instructed that the prophecies are shut up and sealed until the time of the end (i.e., 1948) and we know that the Roman Empire is already in the dust-bin of history, then certainly we could arrive to your premise where the ONLY available "people" would be the members of the U.N., and the "prince that shall come" shall arrive AFTER the seventy shibiym/shabuwa (plural/singular).

But per my suggestion in a previous post, -- Who are the ten nations which were determined in the Aug. 1993 vote? (HINT: They do NOT include Italy.)


BibleScribe

I'm missing your point, BS.

Frankly, historical fact shows Italians destroyed the Temple and Jerusalem in 70 AD. This fact cannot be disputed.
And if those "people" are the AC's "people", then the AC is Italian also. This is easily understood.

What ten nations are you talking about? I'm referring to the EU, which member Italy is.....

 

[BibleScribe]

I'm missing your point, BS.

Frankly, historical fact shows Italians destroyed the Temple and Jerusalem in 70 AD. This fact cannot be disputed.
And if those "people" are the AC's "people", then the AC is Italian also. This is easily understood.

Hey Popeye,

You have several problems, the least of which is whether any "people" are those you assert.

As provided in the Topic "How Close Is The Seven Year Tribulation", the full context of the text is NOT for the era you assume:
Ref: http://www.christian...n/page__st__120


1. Daniel 9:2 specifies "years". -- This is a clue.

2. Daniel 9:2 does not use the simple shama to perceive the prophecy of Jeremiah as though reading that book, but rather the Soloman biyn to perceive the prophecy in the BOOKS.-- This is another clue.

3. Daniel 9:25 "going forth of the word" does NOT have the inference of any edict from man, but rather and edict directly from GOD. -- This is another clue.

4. The Daniel 9:25 seven is one duration with an anointed one "coming" after that duration. -- And another clue.

5. The Daniel 9:25 - 26 sixty-two weeks is a second duration with a second anointed one who is cut off after that duration. -- Still another clue.

6. The "weeks"/"week" are the inconcise Masculine gender text, which are specifically NOT 490 years. -- And yet another clues.

7. The second anointed one who is cut off is not killed upon the sixty-two, but simply AFTER. -- The clues keep on coming.

8. The destroyer does not come at the beginning, middle, or upon the end of the seventieth shabuwa, but "shall come" after the seventieth shabuwa. -- You can't handle these clues.

9. The seven, the sixty-two, the seventieth, and after the seventieth are chronologically connected, with NO ~2,000 year gaps. -- And still more clues.

10. This prophecy is shut up and sealed until the time of the end, which is approximate to 1948. -- The final clue which I've identified.



So if there is ANY merit to characterizing "the people of the prince", then it certainly wouldn't have a Roman inference, and would be reach to even assign it to the TRUE ~people~ from this destroyer.

What ten nations are you talking about? I'm referring to the EU, which member Italy is.....

Once again, if Rome had a 4a/4b fufillment, then Daniel would NOT have provided the Daniel 2:45 sequence: 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE. (Also please note that the Roman Empire is in the dust-bin of history, and another occupies that ancient geography.)

Thus the "seven heads" represent the seven world empires, and the ten toes/horns represent the ten members of the Permanent Security Council. -- Do you know who these are as cited in the Aug. 1993 vote?


BibleScribe

 

[veteran]

Please tell me you're not one of those conspiracy theorists who think there's a secret underground evil organization that pervades democratic governments in a patient game of subversive takeovers of governments of the world. If you are, then you've been watching too many Hollywood movies and/or listening to too many paranoid delusional christian extremists who believe these things. Frankly, if you want to see the transmission of evil working it's iniquity, you needn't go further than next door, or across the street to see it. Evil is pervading this world, and this country, OPENLY, and in full view of everyone. And to try and "force-fit" Jerusalem into a prophecy where candlesticks, lamps, clean linens, souls of men and golden cups are described is an attempt to complicate the obvious and confuse the masses similar to the way scholars try to impress us with their raw biblical knowledge with historical accounts and word derivations. Yet, they all lack understanding, and are slaves to prophetic dogma.

You've just shown how deep your head is buried in the sand brother. Might want to quit listening to media junk like CNN and MSNBC and start looking at the real world and signs right in front of you. That kind of talk reveals you actually aren't interested in heeding Bible prophecy about the end of days and the beast working over all nations and peoples. I don't know, maybe you're actually part of its working and don't know it yet. Let's do a check...

1. Do you support homosexuality in the Churches?

2. Are you a Communist or Socialist?

3. Are you a supporter of the United Nations?

4. Are you for, or against the Constitution of The United States as the law of the land in the United States of America?

5. Do you think the U.S. Constitution is outdated and needs to be changed?

6. Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of a mystical fraternity like the Freemasons, Rosicrucians, Order of The Golden Dawn, Knights Templars, Order of Jacques De Molay, Disciples of Pythagoras, Order of Illuminati, Traditional Martinist Order; Theosophical Society, etc.?

7. Are you a supporter of the European Union concept?

8. Are you a supporter of the International Monetary Fund and The World Bank?

9. Have you ever attended a Bilderburger meeting in Europe?

10. Are you a member of the internationalist Club of Rome?

11. Are you a supporter of disarmament for the United States?

12. Do you support representatives of other religions than Christianity coming into a Church to teach doctrine about those other religions?

13. Do you support the inter-faith joining of all the world's religions into one central religion for all peoples?

 

[BibleScribe]

You've just shown how deep your head is buried in the sand brother. Might want to quit listening to media junk like CNN and MSNBC and start looking at the real world and signs right in front of you. That kind of talk reveals you actually aren't interested in heeding Bible prophecy about the end of days and the beast working over all nations and peoples. I don't know, maybe you're actually part of its working and don't know it yet. Let's do a check...

1. Do you support homosexuality in the Churches?

2. Are you a Communist or Socialist?

3. Are you a supporter of the United Nations?

4. Are you for, or against the Constitution of The United States as the law of the land in the United States of America?

5. Do you think the U.S. Constitution is outdated and needs to be changed?

6. Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of a mystical fraternity like the Freemasons, Rosicrucians, Order of The Golden Dawn, Knights Templars, Order of Jacques De Molay, Disciples of Pythagoras, Order of Illuminati, Traditional Martinist Order; Theosophical Society, etc.?

7. Are you a supporter of the European Union concept?

8. Are you a supporter of the International Monetary Fund and The World Bank?

9. Have you ever attended a Bilderburger meeting in Europe?

10. Are you a member of the internationalist Club of Rome?

11. Are you a supporter of disarmament for the United States?

12. Do you support representatives of other religions than Christianity coming into a Church to teach doctrine about those other religions?

13. Do you support the inter-faith joining of all the world's religions into one central religion for all peoples?

Hi All,

The funny thing is, Scripture supports ALL the above positions. For where righteousness is against these, the world shall become so unrighteous that it will be destroyed. And in that destruction, the hand of man shall participate, launching weapons of mass destruction to the point of killing 1/4 of the earth's population, and 1/3 of the fish in the sea. And when there is but two hours of daylight, for all the dust, debris, smoke, and ash in the air, then man shall realize that the destruction of others will impinge on his own survival, and then he will cease his warfare.

But I would propose that those who are righteous shall withstand the path of the world, to the point of being martyred for not receiving the mark of the beast. And these shall be rewarded by returning with Christ for HIS Millennial Kingdom Reign. And those who should survive this holocaust and die of old age shall worship GOD forever.


BibleScribe

 

[popeye]

You've just shown how deep your head is buried in the sand brother. Might want to quit listening to media junk like CNN and MSNBC and start looking at the real world and signs right in front of you. That kind of talk reveals you actually aren't interested in heeding Bible prophecy about the end of days and the beast working over all nations and peoples. I don't know, maybe you're actually part of its working and don't know it yet. Let's do a check...

1. Do you support homosexuality in the Churches?

2. Are you a Communist or Socialist?

3. Are you a supporter of the United Nations?

4. Are you for, or against the Constitution of The United States as the law of the land in the United States of America?

5. Do you think the U.S. Constitution is outdated and needs to be changed?

6. Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of a mystical fraternity like the Freemasons, Rosicrucians, Order of The Golden Dawn, Knights Templars, Order of Jacques De Molay, Disciples of Pythagoras, Order of Illuminati, Traditional Martinist Order; Theosophical Society, etc.?

7. Are you a supporter of the European Union concept?

8. Are you a supporter of the International Monetary Fund and The World Bank?

9. Have you ever attended a Bilderburger meeting in Europe?

10. Are you a member of the internationalist Club of Rome?

11. Are you a supporter of disarmament for the United States?

12. Do you support representatives of other religions than Christianity coming into a Church to teach doctrine about those other religions?

13. Do you support the inter-faith joining of all the world's religions into one central religion for all peoples?

I guess I need to introduce myself to you, Vet.

First off, I answer NO to every question you asked. I might add, you left-off a number of secret underground organizations, including the Trilateral Commission, among many others. And it is clear you are a conspiracy theorist, who is trying to force-fit every single event that has been transpiring currently into either a conspiracy or a prophecy fulfillment. THIS is very dangerous, I might add. Whiling-away your time looking for fulfillments of prophecy taken from inconsequential current events detracts you from finding correct interpretations in any of the prophecies. If you know the prophecies well, then you know what shall transpire down-the-road, regardless of what is now taking place. We are in the "season" of Christ's return, but until the AOD is committed, His return IS NOT IMMINENT!

I am a die hard conservative, who was a member of B company, 2nd BN, 505 PIR, 82 Airborne Division with an MOS of 11B1P many years ago. So, I've served my time for the country, and owe nothing to it. I am currently reviewing the gaggle of Republican candidates for President, waiting patiently to see if Texas Governor, Rick Perry is going to enter the race. If not, I certainly won't vote for a Mormon, or a man who's had 20 wives. And Sara Palin has compromised any consideration from me while she rakes-in the $$ for her ridiculous pursuits...whatever they may be. None the same, they are all corrupted in my opinion, so I will vote for the less-corrupted nominee. Best I can do as a common man.

So, love of this country....er....love of what this country USE TO BE, is not my problem. I stand confirmed in my love for this country. However, The Truth be known: this country, currently, is a country "living carelessly for God". Whether we like it or not, that is The Truth. So, you need to get use to the idea that this country IS NOT what it use to be. And according to prophecy, she will NOT EVER RETURN to her former glory. PERIOD! Nonetheless, we must suffer with her as we move forward, and this is very hard to stomach for many of us.

As to "hating Christian Churches" I can tell you the prophecy reveals to me that this end times church is suffering the "falling-away" Paul alluded to, and many congregations are so consumed with keeping up with their sister churches in providing the latest, and best, sanctuaries, missions, $$, overseas exploits for their ministers and laymen, etc., etc, they are catering to no one else but mammon, and again, are making a business of The Truth.

I never said that A L L churches are corrupted, I said MANY churches are corrupted. And I think you would agree with me. And if you interpret what I interpret in Rev 17 & 18, along with much supporting scripture, you will begin to see that the ET church will be exterminated from existence in AC's world. Individuals will carry the load of The Church, because after all, the Church is NOT in a building or organization. The true Church lies in the individuals who commune together in Christ. This is the way it will be in the GT coming, as we all flee The Mark, and the authorites. And when we are captured and imprisoned with many of like minded individuals, we will not care if they are Catholic, Protestant, or secular-called. The fact is, we will be in brotherhood until we are executed for The Lord, and join our heavenly family at The Calling.

We have a difference of interpretation. Not a big deal, VET. Otherwise, we're more alike than you may perceive...

Best in Christ,

Mike

 

[popeye]

Hi All,

The funny thing is, Scripture supports ALL the above positions. For where righteousness is against these, the world shall become so unrighteous that it will be destroyed. And in that destruction, the hand of man shall participate, launching weapons of mass destruction to the point of killing 1/4 of the earth's population, and 1/3 of the fish in the sea. And when there is but two hours of daylight, for all the dust, debris, smoke, and ash in the air, then man shall realize that the destruction of others will impinge on his own survival, and then he will cease his warfare.

But I would propose that those who are righteous shall withstand the path of the world, to the point of being martyred for not receiving the mark of the beast. And these shall be rewarded by returning with Christ for HIS Millennial Kingdom Reign. And those who should survive this holocaust and die of old age shall worship GOD forever.


BibleScribe

THAT is the first time you spoke from your heart, BS, rather than from convoluted legal-eze. You a lwayer by trade? Well-put!

 

[Tsigano]

Did you want evidence for this position, or are you content with their prevarications?

sorry. I was laughing at the wording as to how you speak as though you are so much more sure of yourself and assume that everyone is but fed with lies. My apologies for laughing out loud.

I myself think it is wrong for anyone to claim to know it all unless given clear instruction from God and to have it confirmed to His church through multiple members. God does not make things unclear to His church and if He reveals things He does it in light and not in darkness.
I am myself certain in my mind of one thing----------- The beast with ten horns and seven hills was and is Rome as in the "Empire of Rome".

I am certain that the many prophecies in Daniel make this clear. Also the dragon with ten horn and seven hills in Revelations 12 also blatantly points to the Empire of Rome.

In addition to this the same way the ram with two horns was the Persians & Medes, the goat with one horn which becomes four was Greece and these verses can be proved through history (The Persians and Medes did attack as a combined force. The Medes being the bigger but the Persian became the greater. Alexander did conquer the known world in only a few years but when finished conquering, he died and his kingdom was split between his four generals), we can also prove the beast is Rome through history. Rome grew as a trading town out the corner of the Greek Empire but became even more terrifying. Rome had seven kings (7 horns), then a republic (no kings = no horns considered), then a rule of three (3 horns), then a republic with an Emperor who in effect was mightier than any of the kings (little horn). In addition to this Rome has seven recognizable hills (seven heads)

The next beast to be mention which comes out of the land I am certain is Islam. This being due to Islam being A. from the seed of Abraham, B. it is the only other big religion after Christianity, C. persecutes both Jews and Christians, D. has verses stating to "behead" non-believers as in comparison to verses in Revelations of the beast beheading Christians for God'sr Words - The Bible), E. if you study the beliefs of Islam they mirror that of Revelations but in reverse.
In addition to all this, It has two divisions (as in two horns). It appears to most as a religion of peace in the same way as Christianity is (looks like a lamb) but in reality teaches to hate and make war again non-believers (speaks like a dragon).

Rome came. It has never truly gone away but now sits central within a divided kingdom of the world's super powers of Europe, the US, Asia and the Pacific.

Yet BS you speak as superior on the subject even though to many the answers are quite simple and quite obvious

 

[popeye]

Thus the "seven heads" represent the seven world empires, and the ten toes/horns represent the ten members of the Permanent Security Council. -- Do you know who these are as cited in the Aug. 1993 vote?

BibleScribe

There are 5 permanent nations:
France
UK
USA
China
Russia

where's the other 5 ? There have only been at the most 6 permanent nations throughout the Sec Counsel's history.

I also think you are putting too much emphasis on Dan 2:45. I don't think there is any relevance to the order of Daniel's listing there. Daniel is simply listing the parts of the whole in 2:45 as a summary of the dream. Now, Dan 2:41 thru 2:44 is pertinent because it basically says that the 10 toes shall be in existence at the time of the start of the MK. And the "other people" mentioned in 2:44 is basically saying that existence on earth will not be left to any earthly leader but only the saints who accompany Christ at Armageddon, as it is written.

 

[BibleScribe]

There are 5 permanent nations:
France
UK
USA
China
Russia

where's the other 5 ? There have only been at the most 6 permanent nations throughout the Sec Counsel's history.

I also think you are putting too much emphasis on Dan 2:45. I don't think there is any relevance to the order of Daniel's listing there. Daniel is simply listing the parts of the whole in 2:45 as a summary of the dream. Now, Dan 2:41 thru 2:44 is pertinent because it basically says that the 10 toes shall be in existence at the time of the start of the MK. And the "other people" mentioned in 2:44 is basically saying that existence on earth will not be left to any earthly leader but only the saints who accompany Christ at Armageddon, as it is written.

Hi Popeye,

You are exactly correct in the current listing of the Permanent Membership of the Security Council. However, in August of 1993, five additional members where nominated as follows:

Nominees to the Permanent Membership of the Security Council *
#6. Germany, -- economic power
#7. Japan, -- economic power
#8. Brazil, -- regional representative for S. America
#9. Nigeria, -- regional representative for Africa
#10. India, -- regional representative for the Near East

* “The Road To Reform: Towards A New Clarity,” U.N. Chronicle, UMI, Vol. 30, Issue 4, December 1993, p. 46




So where we know that Daniel 2:45 specifies FIVE distinct world empires, for which the empire of Clay is "divided"; and we can interpret Daniel 7, knowing that FIVE ≠ FOUR, thus we must recognize that the "divided" empire of Clay consists of the three superpowers as represented by the Lion/Eagle, Bear, and Leopard. And of course the "dreadful" one-world-government (i.e., United Nations) shall subdue these three (head of Lion, body of Leopard, and feet of Bear) and have Ten Horns. Thus:

1. USA
2. UK
3. France
4. Russia
5. China
6. Germany, -- economic power
7. Japan, -- economic power
8. Brazil, -- regional representative for S. America
9. Nigeria, -- regional representative for Africa
10. India, -- regional representative for the Near East


But to validate both Scripture and History, -- can you explain exactly WHY the Lion/Eagle is the "head"; the Leopard is the "body"; and the Bear is the "feet"? -- Or is Scripture so inconcise that the assignment of each beast to the physical attribute was happenstance? -- (I.e., could the Lion/Eagle have been the "body"; the Leopard the "feet"; and the Bear the "head"?)

<br style="page-break-before: always;" clear="all"> BibleScribe

 

[popeye]

Hi Popeye,

You are exactly correct in the current listing of the Permanent Membership of the Security Council. However, in August of 1993, five additional members where nominated as follows:

Nominees to the Permanent Membership of the Security Council *
#6. Germany, -- economic power
#7. Japan, -- economic power
#8. Brazil, -- regional representative for S. America
#9. Nigeria, -- regional representative for Africa
#10. India, -- regional representative for the Near East

* “The Road To Reform: Towards A New Clarity,” U.N. Chronicle, UMI, Vol. 30, Issue 4, December 1993, p. 46




So where we know that Daniel 2:45 specifies FIVE distinct world empires, for which the empire of Clay is "divided"; and we can interpret Daniel 7, knowing that FIVE ≠ FOUR, thus we must recognize that the "divided" empire of Clay consists of the three superpowers as represented by the Lion/Eagle, Bear, and Leopard. And of course the "dreadful" one-world-government (i.e., United Nations) shall subdue these three (head of Lion, body of Leopard, and feet of Bear) and have Ten Horns. Thus:

1. USA
2. UK
3. France
4. Russia
5. China
6. Germany, -- economic power
7. Japan, -- economic power
8. Brazil, -- regional representative for S. America
9. Nigeria, -- regional representative for Africa
10. India, -- regional representative for the Near East


But to validate both Scripture and History, -- can you explain exactly WHY the Lion/Eagle is the "head"; the Leopard is the "body"; and the Bear is the "feet"? -- Or is Scripture so inconcise that the assignment of each beast to the physical attribute was happenstance? -- (I.e., could the Lion/Eagle have been the "body"; the Leopard the "feet"; and the Bear the "head"?)

<br style="page-break-before: always;" clear="all"> BibleScribe

Rev 13:2....but nothing I can produce through Google shows any more than 5 permanent members, as of 2011.
And let us not forget the terrible fourth beast had teeth of IRON, and nails of BRASS. And the 10 horns emanated from ONE HEAD ONLY, and the little horn subdues 3 of the 10 horns.