Rome's 7 0F 10 Hills

[BibleScribe]

...

Babylon is a city and is not the beast. The fact it sits on the beast with ten heads etc makes me believe it sits on the Roman Empire. I think Babylon is Rome or maybe the Vatican city. ...

Hi Tsigano,

You assert that "Babylon is a city", and then you assert "I think Babylon is Rome or maybe ...". If you don't know the full picture, then do you really know any of it?

The picture is complete. There is no ambiguity. The only question is, why isn't it complete for you?



BibleScribe

 

[revturmoil]

You're kidding, right?

Absolutely not! It is blasphemy to attribute the evils of the man of sin to the church.

Name another organization that uses as it's symbol a "golden chalice" ( as the whore is holding ). No town, country, nation, religious order, or other world religion uses as it's symbol a golden chalice. Furthermore, I never said it was Rome, or Italy or whatever. I said Babylon the Great was A BELIEF SYSTEM. And until you understand the significance of why women are used as symbols in The Revelation, you also will be in error concerning your interpretation of Rev 17 / 18. But, for your sake, I'll suffer you this:

You have been fooled! Prophecy was written in a way that it can easily fool people who have been indoctrinated. Christians have been indoctrinated to believe that 'Rome' would become the end-time beast ever since the reformers. They were convinced that since Rome crucified Christ, destroyed the temple, and persecuted Christians they would also become the end-time beast, but there's not one verse to support that idea.

A cup is figurative of divine appointments whether favorable or unfavorable..of prosperity or adversity.

The same word for cup in Revelation 17:4 　And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
Is the same word for cup in Mathew 26:39!

The verse focuses more on the contents of the cup rather than the cup itself!
Strong's #4221
http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strongs.cgi?file=greeklexicon&isindex=cup

Matthew 26:39 　And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt

http://www.bluelette...ngs=G4221&t=KJV

In Revelation 17:4 the 'cup' is full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

In Catholicism the cup is filled with bread that represents the presence and body of Christ....NOT the abominations of the earth!

It's not altar boys, priest, bishops, cardinals, or the pope that is committing the abominations of the earth today. It is Muslim's who fly planes into skyscrapers. Not Catholics! It is Muslim's who bury people up to their waste and stone them to death. Not Catholic's! It is Muslim's who blow themselves up in market places and kill people/children. Not Catholics! It is Muslim's who behead people. Not Catholic's! Beheading is the prefered method of persecution in the book of Revelation.


It is Muslim's who bow to Satan 5 times a day toward a black rock in Mecca. Not Catholic's!

A woman is used twice in The Rev as belief systems / churches. They are also both capable of giving birth. Indeed, the woman of Rev 12 literal "gives birth". And the woman of Rev 17 is "the Mother of prostitutes / harlots" also indicating that she, too, gave birth to someone. Women also are used to indicate they are a church who is wed to The Lamb, or to God.

The woman of Rev 12 is Judaism, which gave birth to Christianity.

The woman of Rev 17 is Catholicism, which gave birth to Protestantism.

The harlot is symbolic of Islam who has given birth to the jihadist, and they fill the harlot's cup daily in hopes of obtaining up to 70 virgins and 70 mansions in paradise. Babylon is synonymous with a cruel and oppressive false religion.

The Greek word for worship used in the book of Revelation is proskuneo (4352) which literally means to bow down before someone. The Complete Word Study Dictionary says,
In the NT, generally, to do reverence or homage to someone, usually by kneeling or prostrating oneself before him.

In Strong's Concordance it say's
4352. proskuneo pros-koo-neh'-o from 4314 and a probable derivative of 2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master's hand); to fawn or crouch to, i.e. (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore):--worship.

Every instance of the word "worship" in the book of Revelation is proskuneo. Bowing before someone was considered a form of worship and the Greek word proskuneo refers to this form of worship.

The word worship in Revelation 13 is the bowing toward Mecca that Muslims do five times every day. THAT FORM OF WORSHIP ISN'T ONE THAT CATHOLIC'S PRACTICE.

John could have used one of several different Greek words such as "sebomai" (4576) which means,
To revere, stressing the feeling of awe or devotion, to worship religiously. To stand in awe of someone, to reverence, venerate, worship.

"Sebomai" appears several times in the New Testament, such as in Matt. 15:9, Mark 7:7, and five times in Acts.

You are welcome to think you know who Babylon the Great is, but you will be in error until you can justify why two women are used in The Rev, and why they were used, and what their significance is metaphorically and symbolically. Everyone who thinks that Babylon the Great is a place, country, person, or location is in error. Unfortunately, Vatican City and Catholicism is headquartered in Rome, and you will just have to live in denial of this until you accept The Truth.

Islam, Babylon the Great, Mother of Jihadist and abominations of the earth!

AND UNFORTUNATELY BABYLON IS NOT ROME! It has only one literal meaning....Babylon! It is figurative of cruel and oppressive rule! That reflects Islam much more than Catholicism!

http://www.eliyah.co...isindex=babylon

I also see you totally disregarded all the descriptions and explanations given in my line x line analysis of Rev 17 / 18. You might want to check it out again, and reconsider.

I didn't disregard anything. I just don't agree with you!

The mark...

Literally meaning "a raisin", the zebiba is a patch of hardened skin where the forehead touches the ground during Muslim prayers.

A devout Muslim’s forehead is meant to touch the ground at least 34 times a day in symbolic submission to Allah's will which could add up to more than a million prostrations in a lifetime.

Here's a picture of the raisin. Maybe this is the mark???

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&rlz=1W1ADRA_en&q=PRAYER+BUMP&rlz=1W1ADRA_en&aq=f&aqi=g4g-o1&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&fp=a1f1772fa946fa0b

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Prayer_bump

Read about the followers of the beast...the Muslim's...

Who does God say he will raise up in the last days? Muslim's face east and bow with their forehead to the mat.

Habakkuk 1:6 For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, (Babylonian's) that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not theirs.

7 They are terrible and dreadful: ( a terrorist nation) their judgment and their dignity shall proceed of themselves.

8 Their horses also are swifter than the leopards, and are more fierce than the evening wolves: and their horsemen shall spread themselves, and their horsemen shall come from far; they shall fly as the eagle that hasteth to eat.

9 They shall come all for violence: their faces shall sup up as the east wind, and they shall gather the captivity as the sand.
Explain to me how verse 9 applies to Catholic's!

In Rev 17 John is taken by the Spirit into the wilderness, translated dessert, to be shown the judgment of the great whore. The Dessert is where Mecca resides. Rome Italy does not reside in a dessert. Islam has been called "the desert religion." Islam came out of the desert and the seat of Islam is still in the desert today in Mecca, another city of seven hills. The harlot is used interchangeably with Babylon and "that great city." Ancient Babylon is located in Iraq, a Muslim country in the very geographical center of the Islamic world. It was "Arabian's" who dominated the Muslim world from 622 to 1058 and they persecute both the church and Israel today, Rome doesn't.

Mecca has ten spires and seven entrances. Do those numbers sound familiar to you?

Halley's Bible Handbook says,
The Crusades have been considered as one of the greatest atrocities of all of history. For 600 years Christianity flourished in the bible lands. That is until Islam emerged. In the 7th century, Muslim's nearly exterminated Christianity. From Southwest Asia to Northern Africa and all of the Middle East, Christianity was blotted out. Now, and for the last 1300 years, the "bible lands" have been completely dominated by Islam. After Asia, Northern Africa and the Middle-East fell to Islam, they headed for France and encountered my ancestor, Charles Martel at Tours. The Muslim's army was defeated. That was one the most decisive battles of the Middle Ages. Many historians and secularist say that had it not been for Charles Martel, not only would all of Europe had fallen to Islam, but Christianity may have been completely wiped out!

Here are some statistics from that time. Info source: Halley's Bible Handbook.

From 1206 to 1227 under Genghis Kahn,
In Asia; 50,000 cities and towns were burned; 5,000,000 people were murdered; In Asia Minor, 630,000 people were butchered;

Under Tamerlane, 1337 to 1402,
A similsr hurricane of destruction, route everywhere marked with ruined fields and burned villages and blood. At the gate of every city it was his custom to build piles of thousands of heads; at Baghdad, 90.000 skulls!
The fall of Constantinople, (1453) to the Turks, brought to an end the Eastern Roman Empire, and jarred Europe with a second threat of Islamic control which later was stopped by John Sobieski in the battle of Vienna (1683).

The Papacy was a world power in the 6th century and reached it's height in the 13th century, and has declined in power from about the 13th century to now.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Anybody who researches this without bias will find that the amount of people murdered by Rome is miniscule compared to Islam over the centuries. No other religion or government on earth today kills people like Muslim's do. And no religion or government in the past, to include Hitler and the like, have murdered more people than Muslim's. They've had 1400 years to become the most murderous people on earth.

Over the centuries the amount of people murdered at the hands of Muslim's far out number those of Rome. It is a fact that Muslim's have murdered more Christian's since 1998 than in all of history! (Voice of the Martyr's)

The news reveals the murderous nature of Islam everyday. They love to kill children as they did in Beslan, Russia. Their goal is to kill 4 million American's! And they want 2 million of them to be children. They have a name for that attack. It's called the American Hiroshima.

Muslim's actually believe that the bible is inspired by God but that it was tampered with. They say that the Koran is the only unadulterated word of God. They deny the apostles and the prophets and have a false prophet called Muhammad. They have a false bible called the koran. They have a false prophetic scenario similar to Christianity's. Islam is the perfect counterfeit of Christianity and actually claim that Allah is the same God as Jehova.

Muslim's celebrate after terror attacks by exchanging gifts as they did after the 911 attacks. They will do the same after they murder the two witnesses.

Revelation 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Mecca, Jerusalem, and Rome, and some say Baghdad, are all cities of seven hills. However the word is 'oros' and is actually translated 'mountain'. Jerusalem is the only city that is 'surrounded' by 7 mountains. Rome and Mecca have their 'hills' off to one side.

Vatican City and the city of Rome is not built on seven hills, but on only one: Vatican Hill! This hill is not one of the seven Rome was constructed upon. Those seven (the Quirinal, Viminal, Esquiline, Caelian, Aventine, Palatine, and Capitoline hills) are located on the east side of the Tiber River. Vatican Hill is located on the west side. That makes 8 hills total.

Mecca is a city in the desert and John was taken to a dessert for the angel to show him the judgment of the Great whore. Mecca is Islam's spiritual headquaters in the dessert!. Many believe that the 'kaaba' or infamous black rock could house a meteorite. Mecca is the "glory of Kadar."

I think the great city could be Jerusalem because it is surrounded by seven "mountains." Jerusalem will get tread upon again by the gentiles, i.e. Arab/Muslims.
Babylon must "sit on" or occupy seven mountains, and I believe those mountains could be the seven mountains that surround Jerusalem or 7 Muslim countries that Islam "occupies" as the anti-christ kingdom.

"As the mountains surround Jerusalem, so the Lord surrounds his people both now and forevermore," the psalmist writes. (Psalm 125:2)
You can say that Babylon is Rome but where is the scriptural evidence? Babylon is synonymous with a cruel and oppressive false religion. Rome did not give birth to harlot 'false' religions. It acquired them from Babylon. Babylon gave birth to false religions and Rome isn't a false religion anyway!

 

[popeye]

Quite the diatribe on Islam!
It is clear you are quite adamant about defaming Islam....and RIGHTLY SO!!
Islam is certainly a false religion. Unfortunately, you are obviously "caught-up" in the current anti-Islamic fervor, and understandably,
try to "fit" this current condition to something you think is relative to prophecy.

Unfortunately, you completely ignored any study of why a woman is used in The Rev, and I can understand why.
Frankly, Islam has no connection, whatsoever, to the two women used in prophecy. So it would be best to ignore it altogether.

The "cup" used is described as "golden", therefore indicating the woman who's using it to be rich, or is perceived to be. You also
completely ignore the rest of the description of the whore. What? Is this "pick n' choose" prophecy you practice?

Do me a favor. Do a word x word, line x line exegesis, as I have done, with chapters 17 & 18, and show me where Islam would "fit" that prophecy. Then I'll seriously consider your interpretation.

Otherwise, as far as I'm concerned, you're adding extra-biblical material and fact to substantiate your hatred of Islam as fitting the prophecy.

You keep mentioning that I subscribe to R O M E being Babylon. I didn't say that. I said Bab the Great is a belief system. You would also do well to do a history lesson on the Catholic Church, and how she murdered her own, controlled kings and countries, and dictated divine standards for nearly her entire history. And, unfortunately for you, she still exists today in a form that insults the very God that allows her to exist to this day.

Islam, and her terroristic hoards, will be summarily exterminated during the Gog / Magog battle, which, if you know prophecy, will take place shortly before the rise of AC. Islam will be a non-entity by the time of AC. That is another reason why your obsession with defaming Islam and placing it into prophetic context is also in error.

 

[BibleScribe]

Hi Tsigano,

You assert that "Babylon is a city", and then you assert "I think Babylon is Rome or maybe ...". If you don't know the full picture, then do you really know any of it?

The picture is complete. There is no ambiguity. The only question is, why isn't it complete for you?



BibleScribe

To All,

I'm amazed that prophetic topics are so difficult. It's simply History before history is written, and once it's written, it agrees with prophecy. So the first aspect is the FIRST KING, -- who is Nebuchadnezzar. As such he is distinct among his peers, simply because he offered a NEW model of governance:


The Babylonian Empire was “the first true metropolis in western history, a business as well as an administrative center,”[1] -- the prototype of governments as we see them to this day. The Babylonians controlled trade and commerce across western Asia, from the Mediterranean Sea to the Persian Gulf, building highways, legislating business, and beautifying the capital.[2] <br clear="all"> [1] John B. Christopher and Robert Lee Wolf, A History of Civilization, Prentice-Hall, Englewood Cliffs, NJ, 1967, p. 35

[2] Will Durant, Story of Civilization: Part II, Simon and Schuster, NY, 1954, pp. 223-224




And where Daniel 2:45 demands FIVE world empires, -- History provides that evidence:


DANIEL 2
1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4. Iron, Roman
5. Clay, "divided"


... so that when further information is supplied, so too History supports that:


DANIEL 2 & 7
1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4. Iron, Roman
-- Clay, "divided"
-- 5. Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S.
-- 6. Bear, Russia
-- 7. Leopard, China
-- 8. "dreadful", United Nations (please note that this entity has NO geography, NO populous, NO army, etc., thus "was and is not")


Thus of these seven "heads", Russia will be "mortally wounded" when it attacks Israel and is spanked by China. And of course, we also know the identity of the ten horns, as identified in the Aug. 1993 U.N. vote.



Does anyone need to borrow a History book?

BibleScribe

 

[revturmoil]

Islam is certainly a false religion. Unfortunately, you are obviously "caught-up" in the current anti-Islamic fervor, and understandably,
try to "fit" this current condition to something you think is relative to prophecy.

I don't fit things into prophecy. That's how people go wrong because you can fit just about anything into prophecy. To eliminate the possibilities, I look at the prophecy in God's Word first, then that eliminates a host of things...like Rome!

Is it asking too much for you to quote one verse of prophecy that infers Rome will emerge as an end-time beast?

Can I see ONE verse of ROMAN end-time prophecy???

Unfortunately, you completely ignored any study of why a woman is used in The Rev, and I can understand why.
Frankly, Islam has no connection, whatsoever, to the two women used in prophecy. So it would be best to ignore it altogether.

I'm not ignoring anything. You're the one who mis-interprets the word woman to make it fit your beliefs. If you have a study on it then let's see it.

In the book of Revelation the word woman is always # 1135 and means..."a woman!" http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1135&t=KJV

Here are the other words that "could have been used." http://www.eliyah.co...n&isindex=woman

You can make all the accusations about me that you like but you're only trying to build yourself up. Bring on your bible study about the "women" of the book of Revelation. I would like to see it!

If Islam has no connection then you explain to me why God's Word quotes Habukkuk as raising up the Babylonian's and not the Romans....

Habakkuk 1:5 ¶Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvellously: for I will work a work in your days, which ye will not believe, though it be told you.
6 For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, (People) which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not theirs. (World domination)

If Islam has no connection they why does Habukkuk quote these people (terrorist) as...

Habakkuk 1:9 They shall come all for violence: their faces shall sup up as the east wind, and they shall gather the captivity as the sand.
Do Catholic's or Protestants faces "sup up as the east wind???"

If Islam has no connection then why is it that all Islamic countries are mentioned here...

Psalms 83:4 They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.
5 For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee:
6 The tabernacles of Edom, and the Ishmaelites; of Moab, and the Hagarenes;
7 Gebal, and Ammon, and Amalek; the Philistines with the inhabitants of Tyre;
8 Assur also is joined with them: they have holpen the children of Lot. Selah.
9 ¶Do unto them as unto the Midianites; as to Sisera, as to Jabin, at the brook of Kison:
10 Which perished at Endor: they became as dung for the earth.
11 Make their nobles like Oreb, and like Zeeb: yea, all their princes as Zebah, and as Zalmunna:
12 Who said, Let us take to ourselves the houses of God in possession.

If Islam has no connection then why is it that all Islamic countries are mentioned here...

Ezekiel 38:1 ¶And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,
3 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:
6 Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.
13 Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?

Why is it that every other end-time prophecy mention Islamic countries???

And why is Rome omited?

Why is the form of worship described in the book of Revelation similar to that of Muslim's? Why is the prefered method of persecution in Islam the one mentioned in the book of Revelation?

Babylon gave birth to false religion...NOT ROME!

The "cup" used is described as "golden", therefore indicating the woman who's using it to be rich, or is perceived to be. You also
completely ignore the rest of the description of the whore. What? Is this "pick n' choose" prophecy you practice?

Well that's not true! A cup is figurative of divine appointments whether favorable or unfavorable..of prosperity or adversity.

And if you want to continue a debate with me stop with the foolish judgemental accusations! I pick and chose who and what I want to reply to. Don't accuse me of crap like that!

Do me a favor. Do a word x word, line x line exegesis, as I have done, with chapters 17 & 18, and show me where Islam would "fit" that prophecy.

I should pick apart your word x word, line x line exegesis. Your mentors have you well misled and indoctrinated.

Then I'll seriously consider your interpretation.

A game only a child plays!

Otherwise, as far as I'm concerned, you're adding extra-biblical material and fact to substantiate your hatred of Islam as fitting the prophecy.

How about this. It's your game and I want to play! I've already asked you this question a few times.
If you can post one verse of end-time prophecy that implicates Rome then I'll continue this conversation. I have already considered the Revived Roman Empire theory and consider it debunked. If you can't quote one verse of end-time prophecy where Rome is implied, then why would I want to continue a debate on something that is scripturally unfounded! And you accuse me of adding extra-biblical material when the Psalm 83 nations are all Islamic and the Ezekiel 38 nations are all islamic...And you haven't yet quoted a verse of prophecy that implicates Rome! Go back to school and stop with the accusations and snide comments!

You keep mentioning that I subscribe to R O M E being Babylon. I didn't say that. I said Bab the Great is a belief system. You would also do well to do a history lesson on the Catholic Church, and how she murdered her own, controlled kings and countries, and dictated divine standards for nearly her entire history. And, unfortunately for you, she still exists today in a form that insults the very God that allows her to exist to this day.

You're living in the past. Rome no longer persecutes people and has been declining in power for 600 years. Babylon is Babylon is Babylon!

You have said that Babylon and the woman (harlot) is part of the church and that's why I call that blasphemy!
I don't need a history lesson about Rome and I doubt that you would be the one to give it to me. I'm a Catholic! All you know about Rome is what you've learned from those who hate Catholic's! You need a brief history lesson on Islam.

Islam, and her terroristic hoards, will be summarily exterminated during the Gog / Magog battle, which, if you know prophecy, will take place shortly before the rise of AC. Islam will be a non-entity by the time of AC. That is another reason why your obsession with defaming Islam and placing it into prophetic context is also in error.

I don't believe a word you said in the above quote!

So! How about that one verse of prophecy about Rome I've been asking you about???

If you can't post it...your game is over!

 

[BibleScribe]

...
So! How about that one verse of prophecy about Rome I've been asking you about???
...

I'd like to provide a verse regarding Rome, -- and significance, or lack thereof, in the false doctrine of a ~Revived Holy Roman Empire~.


BibleScribe

 

[revturmoil]

Who is Daniel Pipes?

http://www.danielpipes.org/

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Daniel_Pipes

Daniel Pipes once said on a yahoo forum; (bold is mine) And we should all listen.

Symbols are obviously at the core of the Revelation story. Because of this
extensive use of symbols, Revelation - in my view - has very little present
value as a tool in understanding end-times prophecy. It is an interesting
exercise to see how many of the symbols can be matched up with events and
characters past, present and future, but I don't know of any Christian sect
that holds Revelation to be immutable doctrine. That is simply because there
are so many different understandings of the symbolism, and that different
views become more or less fashionable over the years. The time will come,
I'm sure, when the Holy Spirit will reveal to the church the meaning and use
of the symbols, but that time isn't now.

The leading theologians, past and present, including the Fathers of the
Church, have held to significantly different understandings of Revelation.
A group of competent, knowledgeable, and sincere scholars can complete a
bible-based study of Revelation, and reach a completely different and
contradictory understanding from a second group of competent, knowledgeable
and sincere scholars using the same bible. And yet a third group can reach
a completely different conclusion. Because of the abundance and vagueness of
the symbols, the possible variety of conclusions is almost endless.

In fact, Preterits can make an excellent argument that Revelation is not
prophecy at all, and they can cite verse and chapter of the bible to prove
it . Futurists can argue just as effectively that it is indeed prophecy,
and they have their own list of bible verses. It all depends on how you
interpret the symbols. I personally am reluctant to confront anyone holding
any firm conclusion about Revelation because they immediately drown me in
bible verses.

This sort of prose that depends so heavily on symbolism opens the door to
subjective understanding on the part of the individual reader. There are
any number of well documented studies showing that subjective understanding
is influenced heavily by the reader's previous experience. In other words,
the individual reader instinctively applies the symbols to reinforce and
document something he already believes.

That becomes apparent from some of the posts by this group. Some of the
contributors see Revelation as forecasting the total destruction of some of
the specific things they didn't like it the first place, and they are
pleased to read Revelation which proves that God agrees with them.

It is because of all this that I think we should approach the study and
discussion of Revelation with some caution. Such can be interesting and
worthwhile, so long as everyone realizes that all understandings - and that
means "all" - are speculative and subject to further enlightenment by the
Holy Spirit.

Dan
________________________________________________________________________________________

Thus of these seven "heads", Russia will be "mortally wounded" when it attacks Israel and is spanked by China. And of course, we also know the identity of the ten horns, as identified in the Aug. 1993 U.N. vote.


Does anyone need to borrow a History book?

WE KNOW!!!???
How about "you think!"

Sounds to me that you need more than a bible and a history book!

 

[BibleScribe]

Who is Daniel Pipes?
...
Symbols are obviously at the core of the Revelation story. Because of this
extensive use of symbols, Revelation - in my view - has very little present
value as a tool in understanding end-times prophecy. ...

Rather than "Who", better "What". As to the "What", -- he's at a minimum, uniformed. As to the greater error, he should heed the advice: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." -- Abraham Lincoln

Regarding BibleScribes statement:: "... we also know the identity of the ten horns, as identified in the Aug. 1993 U.N. vote."

WE KNOW!!!???
How about "you think!"
...

"We", the world, have been made aware of the identity of the ten horns as identified in the Aug. 1993 vote. Certainly some individuals may be oblivious to this fact, but the pronouncement is public. Furthermore, some individuals refuse information.


BibleScribe

 

[revturmoil]

Rather than "Who", better "What". As to the "What", -- he's at a minimum, uniformed. As to the greater error, he should heed the advice: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." -- Abraham Lincoln




"We", the world, have been made aware of the identity of the ten horns as identified in the Aug. 1993 vote. Certainly some individuals may be oblivious to this fact, but the pronouncement is public. Furthermore, some individuals refuse information.


BibleScribe

I refuse your foolish arrogance. Daniel Pipes is a well informed man and scholar. And you're still in pre-school!

I've told you before. You don't explain yourself well at all and are full of ambiguity. And of course you have nothing good to say about anybody except yourself.

You have a lot to learn and are unwilling to learn it. You come accross as though you know everything there is to know about everything there is to know about.

You could learn a lot from Daniel Pipes and Laurie Milroy. But hey! You already know it all!

Because of your last reply, I have even a more unfavorable opinion of you!

 

[veteran]

I know some aren't going to like this, but the pointers in Revelation to the Babylon harlot whore is about a certain city, and several of those pointers are directly to Jerusalem.


Rev 17:15-18:24
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Christ described to John the "sea" of waters of the first beast of Rev.13:1 with that. It's about whole nations that "whore" is to sit over in power (revealed in next chapter).


16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Back in Rev.17 John was shown that "woman" decked out in purple and scarlet, with gold and precious stones, and a golden cup in her hand. What is symbolic of purple and scarlet? Royalty, showing she is a queen harlot. Saddam tried to rebuild the literal geographical city of Babylon (in Iraq). But he failed to do it. Though it still exists, it is still a waste pretty much. There's no signs of rulership there, nor of royal rulership being setup there.

God pronounced sentence upon the historical city of Babylon per Jer.50-51. And it came to pass. After Alexander's death, another city near historical Babylon became the new head, and lot of the houses and buildings in Babylon were demolished to build it and other cities, leaving Babylon in "heaps" per God's prophecy in Jer.51:37.



CHAPTER 18

1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen", and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Much of this is a repeat from the Old Testament prophets about the historical destruction of the city of Babylon. But this is for the last days. How will "all nations" become a part of this in the last days if the waste area of the literal city of Babylon in today's Iraq is meant? Take a look today, that location is not a great area of commerce by merchants.


4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Christ is not just talking about Christians here. He's talking about Israel, for the literal city of Babylon had already gone to ruin by the time of Christ's first coming.


7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

Very important verse that links with the purple and scarlet she wears. She says she sits a queen, and is no widow. A queen that is not widow means what? Think. It means she married, but to whom? Who's the king she is married to? And what kind of marriage is that pointing to about with marriage to a 'city'? Did God not give this type of analogy before though His prophets, about being married to a 'city'? Yeah, He did, several times. Ezekiel 16 is about His description of marrying the city of Jerusalem on earth. So think of how He's comparing that to this Babylon harlot queen who says she is no widow, and consider that if she's playing the harlot, and she is married, then who is it to?


Then we come down to this description about the Babylon harlot city...

20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

Per Bible history, what city was it that persecuted God's prophets He sent? Rome? No. New York? No. The ancient city of geographical Babylon? No, for Israel was well taken care of in Babylon during their 70 years captivity, so much so, that the majority of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi elected to remain in Babylon after the 70 years. They actually increased in numbers during that Babylon captivity. The city is Jerusalem that persecuted God's prophets He sent. Likewise Jerusalem persecuted Christ's Apostles, especially Apostle Paul.


21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
(KJV)

The "blood of the prophets" is a very specific pointer to Jerusalem. Jerusalem only can claim that history of persecuting God's Old Testament prophets, not Rome, and not historical Babylon.

The Babylon harlot is about a false marriage in the last days. Jerusalem is going to marry someone, and it won't be our LORD obviously. God has given us all kinds of signs today to show this coming in today's Jerusalem. The unbelieving Jews think to establish the kingdom of Israel of old there like in Solomon's days, with a new temple. And the one-world globalists are helping them, continually trying to bring their peace plan for Jerusalem into lasting effect. And Islam is revealing its believe of a coming messiah, even as the orthodox Jews there also are doing, while we Christians prophesy of our Lord Jesus' return there.

The pimple is large today, and the abscess is pointing to end time Jerusalem as a harlot city because of the Antichrist getting ready to come there first, to meet his own bride (the deceived) and consummate his own marriage with Jerusalem to spite our Heavenly Father.

 

[[email protected]]

Babylon Is Fallen
[sup]1[/sup] After these things I saw another [sup][/sup]angel [sup][/sup]coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was [sup][/sup]illumined with his glory. [sup]2[/sup] And he cried out with a mighty voice, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She [sup][/sup]has become a dwelling place of demons and a [sup]4[/sup] I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “[sup][/sup]Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;


This verse makes me think she was not always evil. It also says for Christians to come out from being a part of her. Why then would Christians be within her?

Why would Christians be within her? The same reason Christians are within Las Vegas or Atlantic City.

I agree with you that many portions of scripture can be used to illustrate a point be it moral, physical, spiritual, etc. Babylon may be used as a figure as well as a reference to a real place. The trick is to know which is which.

--------------------
NEWS ITEM FROM TURKEY...

"Supporters of the present government were excited with 'the idea of an empire' long before the Syrian crisis. The personal popularity of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan and of Turkish foreign policy in the Middle East were being interpreted with reference to the Ottoman background and this has already started to pave the way to dream of some sort of future 'imperial role' in the region.....

Turkey has its own problem with Kurds and is not doing well to solve the problem peacefully. There may be some hopes for constraining the problem by intervening in Syria and killing two birds with one stone."
-Nuray Mert
HURRIET DAILY NEWS (Turkey) 07/25/11

----end of news item----

The Kurds are acting as a restraint against some sort of Turkish adventure into Muslim domination or imperial caliphate. The uSA is also a form of restraint in the region, or so we are led to believe. What happens if these 'restraints' are removed? What happens if that political and military force which blocks or restrains Muslim hopes for a new Ottoman Empire is removed?

The Bible predicts that the A/C and beast will not move until some sort of 'restraint' is removed. The proponents of one millenial theory believe the restraint is the Holy Spirit, but did not God promise that He would never leave us? The debate's answer to that one is that Our Lord would remove us and the Holy Spirit as well. I personally reject that scenario because it doesn't make any logical sense. It doesn't make any spiritual sense either. Therefore the 'restraint' which opposes the A/C must be something else. Might this restraint be geo-political in nature? It doesn't take a wild imagination to predict what would happen if western armies were removed from the middle east. The whole place is on fire as it is.

see Revelation 2:12 & 13 Pergamun (spelling can also be Pergamon), Turkey is the throne of Satan. The Bible says so.

WATCH TURKEY

 

[popeye]

Is it asking too much for you to quote one verse of prophecy that infers Rome will emerge as an end-time beast?

Can I see ONE verse of ROMAN end-time prophecy???

How about this. It's your game and I want to play! I've already asked you this question a few times.
If you can post one verse of end-time prophecy that implicates Rome then I'll continue this conversation. I have already considered the Revived Roman Empire theory and consider it debunked. If you can't quote one verse of end-time prophecy where Rome is implied, then why would I want to continue a debate on something that is scripturally unfounded! And you accuse me of adding extra-biblical material when the Psalm 83 nations are all Islamic and the Ezekiel 38 nations are all islamic...And you haven't yet quoted a verse of prophecy that implicates Rome! Go back to school and stop with the accusations and snide comments!

So! How about that one verse of prophecy about Rome I've been asking you about???

If you can't post it...your game is over!

Let me ask you a simple question first. Answer it truthfully, without any extended summary, and I'll produce the scriptural proof you've so long requested.

question:

Who was the dominate world power who occupied Palestine at the time of the birth and death of Christ?

 

[BibleScribe]

I refuse your foolish arrogance. Daniel Pipes is a well informed man and scholar.
...

Only a less-than-well-informed individual would discount that which they don't understand as "very little ... value". As such, not only is this individual of "very little ... value", but so are those who believe him.

You ... are full of ambiguity. ...

Ask and it shall be opened, seek and you shall find.


BibleScribe

 

[popeye]

I know some aren't going to like this, but the pointers in Revelation to the Babylon harlot whore is about a certain city, and several of those pointers are directly to Jerusalem.


Rev 17:15-18:24
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Christ described to John the "sea" of waters of the first beast of Rev.13:1 with that. It's about whole nations that "whore" is to sit over in power (revealed in next chapter).


16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Back in Rev.17 John was shown that "woman" decked out in purple and scarlet, with gold and precious stones, and a golden cup in her hand. What is symbolic of purple and scarlet? Royalty, showing she is a queen harlot. Saddam tried to rebuild the literal geographical city of Babylon (in Iraq). But he failed to do it. Though it still exists, it is still a waste pretty much. There's no signs of rulership there, nor of royal rulership being setup there.

God pronounced sentence upon the historical city of Babylon per Jer.50-51. And it came to pass. After Alexander's death, another city near historical Babylon became the new head, and lot of the houses and buildings in Babylon were demolished to build it and other cities, leaving Babylon in "heaps" per God's prophecy in Jer.51:37.



CHAPTER 18

1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen", and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Much of this is a repeat from the Old Testament prophets about the historical destruction of the city of Babylon. But this is for the last days. How will "all nations" become a part of this in the last days if the waste area of the literal city of Babylon in today's Iraq is meant? Take a look today, that location is not a great area of commerce by merchants.


4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Christ is not just talking about Christians here. He's talking about Israel, for the literal city of Babylon had already gone to ruin by the time of Christ's first coming.


7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

Very important verse that links with the purple and scarlet she wears. She says she sits a queen, and is no widow. A queen that is not widow means what? Think. It means she married, but to whom? Who's the king she is married to? And what kind of marriage is that pointing to about with marriage to a 'city'? Did God not give this type of analogy before though His prophets, about being married to a 'city'? Yeah, He did, several times. Ezekiel 16 is about His description of marrying the city of Jerusalem on earth. So think of how He's comparing that to this Babylon harlot queen who says she is no widow, and consider that if she's playing the harlot, and she is married, then who is it to?


Then we come down to this description about the Babylon harlot city...

20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

Per Bible history, what city was it that persecuted God's prophets He sent? Rome? No. New York? No. The ancient city of geographical Babylon? No, for Israel was well taken care of in Babylon during their 70 years captivity, so much so, that the majority of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi elected to remain in Babylon after the 70 years. They actually increased in numbers during that Babylon captivity. The city is Jerusalem that persecuted God's prophets He sent. Likewise Jerusalem persecuted Christ's Apostles, especially Apostle Paul.


21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
(KJV)

The "blood of the prophets" is a very specific pointer to Jerusalem. Jerusalem only can claim that history of persecuting God's Old Testament prophets, not Rome, and not historical Babylon.

The Babylon harlot is about a false marriage in the last days. Jerusalem is going to marry someone, and it won't be our LORD obviously. God has given us all kinds of signs today to show this coming in today's Jerusalem. The unbelieving Jews think to establish the kingdom of Israel of old there like in Solomon's days, with a new temple. And the one-world globalists are helping them, continually trying to bring their peace plan for Jerusalem into lasting effect. And Islam is revealing its believe of a coming messiah, even as the orthodox Jews there also are doing, while we Christians prophesy of our Lord Jesus' return there.

The pimple is large today, and the abscess is pointing to end time Jerusalem as a harlot city because of the Antichrist getting ready to come there first, to meet his own bride (the deceived) and consummate his own marriage with Jerusalem to spite our Heavenly Father.

Vet-
There are some clues dropped in Rev 17 & 18 that debunks the idea that Bab the Great is a city. Indeed, the clues show us that it is a belief system, and not a physical place at all.

For instance:

Rev 17:4 - "a golden cup in her hand" - Catholicism, cup for taking the sacramental offering of Christ's blood
Rev 17:9 - "seven mountains on which the woman sits" - Catholicism, Vatican City
Rev 17:16 - "and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh and burn her with fire" - Catholicism, Vatican City and St. Peter's cathedral will be burned to the ground, her adherants cast into jail and killed during the GT.
Rev 18:5 - "her sins have reached unto heaven" - Catholicism's message concerned God, and they have corrupted that message through man-imposed ritual standards, calling the Pope and priests "father".
Rev 18:12 - "and fine linen" - fine linen is the material of the saints robes in heaven
Rev 18:13 - "and souls of men" - the catholic Church have corrupted the very souls of many of her adherants over the years.
Rev 18:14 - "and thy fruits thy soul lusted after are departed from thee" - Originally, the CC had good intentions to bear good fruit and therefore, good Christians.
Rev 18:16 - "that great city ( Vatican City ) that was clothed in fine linen" - Again, originally, the CC had good intentions to produce good Christians and in it's infancy was worthy to wear white clean linens.
Rev 18:23 - "and a light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee" - This statement says it all. The ONLY object that could truely satisfy this statement, is a Church or religion that is symbolized by a candlestick burning a flame of light and marriage ceremonies conducted within her organization and church walls.

These clues should show us that what we're talking about in Rev 17 & 18 is a Church. And THE ONLY CHURCH that could bear offspring ( albeit harlots ) is the Catholic Church from which were born PROTESTANT DENOMINATIONS, many of whom have also prostituted themselves to the ways of the world.

 

[BibleScribe]

Vet-
There are some clues dropped in Rev 17 & 18 that debunks the idea that Bab the Great is a city. Indeed, the clues show us that it is a belief system, and not a physical place at all.

...

Hi Popeye,

You are correct in a figurative interpretation. And if I might suggest, the empires represented in the Image of Metals have the commonality of ALL following the Metropolis model:


The Babylonian Empire was “the first true metropolis in western history, a business as well as an administrative center,”[1] -- the prototype of governments as we see them to this day. The Babylonians controlled trade and commerce across western Asia, from the Mediterranean Sea to the Persian Gulf, building highways, legislating business, and beautifying the capital.[2] <br clear="all"> [1] John B. Christopher and Robert Lee Wolf, A History of Civilization, Prentice-Hall, Englewood Cliffs, NJ, 1967, p. 35

[2] Will Durant, Story of Civilization: Part II, Simon and Schuster, NY, 1954, pp. 223-224




This model exceeded the Babylonian Empire as represented by such pinnacle cities as: ~Alexandria; ~Athens; ~Rome; ~Paris; ~London; and as presently evidenced, the city which the creators of Superman dubbed "Metropolis", -- New York City. And of course Scripture suggests that the next pinnacle city will be Jerusalem, when the U.N. takes possession of that disputed city and offers: ~Access to all, but possession by none~.


BibleScribe

 

[popeye]

Veteran-

I also might add that the women in The Rev are symbolically used to indicate a "bride" form of belief. Just as Rev 12's woman is possibly the "bride" of God ( Judaism / Israel ) , Rev 17 is composed of many individuals who may be found worthy to be included in the "bride" of Christ. Women are also used as symbols in The Rev because they can give birth. The woman of Rev 12 , being Judaism, gave birth to Christianity. The woman of Rev 17 , being the "mother" gave birth to harlots. This can ONLY mean a belief system that gave birth to another belief system. That belief system, therefore, could ONLY be Catholicism giving birth to Protestantism.

If one knows the dispensation of the fulfillment of the prophecies relative to the Great Tribulation, then it is much easier to assign and interpret Rev 17 & 18 to the destruction of a belief system, and all her symbolisms, to include: churches, bibles, jewlery such as crosses, trinkets, and anything else the merchants of the world produced for those churches and belief systems and including, the destruction of those that claim themselves Christian. This prophecy is a foretelling of the complete annihilation and obliteration on earth of anything to do with Christianity. And it will be carried out by none other than the AC, and the authorities for the countries under the rule of AC.

One last note: Jerusalem was destroyed and abandoned for 2 millennia, when the Jews were dispersed into their enemies countries during the Diaspora. They, AND JERUSALEM, have paid the full measure of their iniquity ( see Ezk 39 ). However, the Catholic Church has not been held accountable for her sins on earth to this day. In similar fashion then, Vatican City and St. Peter's Cathedral and any Catholic will have their "come-uppance" in our future, the same way Jerusalem and Jews did in 70 AD, because The Rev is all about Jews and Christians equally being included in the prophecies.

 

[Tsigano]

Hi Tsigano,

You assert that "Babylon is a city", and then you assert "I think Babylon is Rome or maybe ...". If you don't know the full picture, then do you really know any of it?

The picture is complete. There is no ambiguity. The only question is, why isn't it complete for you?



BibleScribe

The same way Elijah was to come before Christ and we know through Jesus that Elijah has already come and it was John the Baptist.

He was the literal Elijah.

Explain this?

Babylon sits on the beast with ten horns. There is too much prophecy to connect this with Rome. Therefore why would Babylon be the same city that once stood just south of Baghdad in what is now Iraq. That city died as a long time ago. It does not exist anymore.

ten horns was seven then three at once replaced by a smaller horn that was more powerful than the previous.

Why is it of no surprise that Rome had seven kings, then had a joint rule of three which was brought to a violent end to be replaced by Augustus. Augustus made Rome as a republic with all rule given to the senate (no king) yet still became the most powerful man Rome has ever seen. He lived at the time of Christ. It was under Roman rule that the firstborn males were killed. It was under Roman rule that Christ grew. It was under Roman rule that Christ was killed (though by His own people the Jews), It was by Roman rule that the temple was destroyed and the Jews were sent out into the nations of the Earth for safety until the appointed time that they got Israel back. It was under Roman rule that the early Christians were martyred.

What more do you want?

[sup]1[/sup] A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; [sup]2[/sup] and she was with child; and she *[sup](E)[/sup]cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth. (obviously Israel)

[sup]3[/sup] Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. [sup]4[/sup] And his tail *swept away a third of the stars of heaven and [sup](L)[/sup]threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child. (around at the birth of Christ)

[sup]5[/sup] And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. [sup]6[/sup] Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she *had a place prepared by God, so that there [sup][c][/sup]she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.


[sup]7[/sup] And the angel said to me, “Why do you wonder? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns. [sup]8[/sup] “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to [sup](Z)[/sup]come up out of the abyss and [sup][g][/sup]go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.


The next beast to come that is anything to this extent is Islam.

Is it no coincidence that Islam has two sects (two horns) = sunni & Shiite. Is it of no surprise that Islam appears to be of peace and love and is seen as a alternative religion to Christianity. People say that Christianity and Islam are entitled to equality. What they don't realize is that Jesus taught love and forgiveness and Muhammad taught hatred and oppression. Islam may looks like a lamb but it speaks like a dragon

 

[popeye]

Hi Popeye,

You are correct in a figurative interpretation. And if I might suggest, the empires represented in the Image of Metals have the commonality of ALL following the Metropolis model:


The Babylonian Empire was “the first true metropolis in western history, a business as well as an administrative center,”[1] -- the prototype of governments as we see them to this day. The Babylonians controlled trade and commerce across western Asia, from the Mediterranean Sea to the Persian Gulf, building highways, legislating business, and beautifying the capital.[2] <br clear="all"> [1] John B. Christopher and Robert Lee Wolf, A History of Civilization, Prentice-Hall, Englewood Cliffs, NJ, 1967, p. 35

[2] Will Durant, Story of Civilization: Part II, Simon and Schuster, NY, 1954, pp. 223-224




This model exceeded the Babylonian Empire as represented by such pinnacle cities as: ~Alexandria; ~Athens; ~Rome; ~Paris; ~London; and as presently evidenced, the city which the creators of Superman dubbed "Metropolis", -- New York City. And of course Scripture suggests that the next pinnacle city will be Jerusalem, when the U.N. takes possession of that disputed city and offers: ~Access to all, but possession by none~.


BibleScribe

Thanks BS! I have never been opposed to double fulfillments for any prophecy, including this one. Indeed, I believe there are many double fulfillments for all prophecy, both figurative and physical fulfillments. My guess for a "physical fulfillment" for "that Great City", outside of Vatican City, would be Rome, however. The European Union started with the Treaty of Rome back in the 50's. More credence is brought to the table when you consider that the coming AC's nationality is Italian. However, I won't expand on that belief in this thread.

 

[popeye]

Why is it of no surprise that Rome had seven kings, then had a joint rule of three which was brought to a violent end to be replaced by Augustus. Augustus made Rome as a republic with all rule given to the senate (no king) yet still became the most powerful man Rome has ever seen. He lived at the time of Christ. It was under Roman rule that the firstborn males were killed. It was under Roman rule that Christ grew. It was under Roman rule that Christ was killed (though by His own people the Jews), It was by Roman rule that the temple was destroyed and the Jews were sent out into the nations of the Earth for safety until the appointed time that they got Israel back. It was under Roman rule that the early Christians were martyred.

What more do you want?

[sup]1[/sup] A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; [sup]2[/sup] and she was with child; and she *[sup](E)[/sup]cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth. (obviously Israel)

[sup]3[/sup] Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. [sup]4[/sup] And his tail *swept away a third of the stars of heaven and [sup](L)[/sup]threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child. (around at the birth of Christ)

Tsigano - you answered Kaoticprofit's request for a single line of proof showing a revived Roman Empire as the end time beast...and you didn't even know it!

Unfortunately, it shoots your Islam beast all full of holes.

 

[Tsigano]

Thanks BS! I have never been opposed to double fulfillments for any prophecy, including this one. Indeed, I believe there are many double fulfillments for all prophecy, both figurative and physical fulfillments. My guess for a "physical fulfillment" for "that Great City", outside of Vatican City, would be Rome, however. The European Union started with the Treaty of Rome back in the 50's. More credence is brought to the table when you consider that the coming AC's nationality is Italian. However, I won't expand on that belief in this thread.

I never knew about the treaty of Rome being what founded the EU. I just did a search on it and found out more.

Thanks

Rome was the fourth beast to rule the Holy land from the time of Daniel (as prophesied by Daniel - why would he suddenly pick a random four rulers in times to come yet miss the immediate).
Rome was also formed from a rule of seven kings, then after a time period with no king (rule was done by the people with a senate of hundreds) there was a rule of three (all power taken from senate and given to the three). This was brought to a violent end by Octavian. Octavian was clever and gave all power back to the senate. The senate then renamed Octavian as Augustus and made him Romes first Emperor. That was the point when the Roman Empire was born.
Not of any importance, but just little additional facts: The senate even made Augustus a God and renamed the month of August after him. In Egypt he was regarded as a pharaoh. Roman Emperors were to be worshiped. That is why many early Christians were martyred due them refusing to worship a man. Saint George is one example.

In Revelations 12 we see a beast who is referred to as a dragon (obviously double reference to Satan) who persecuted the Jews and tries to stop Jesus being born. After Jesus dies, the Jews flee the beast into the nations of the world until a time when they get their country back.

In Revelations 13 we see again the beast with ten horns and seven hills yet it seems to be a different ten kings as also describes in Rev 15.