No, I think it's time someone else try to get you to see how simple that Dan.9 Scripture really is, ESPECIALLY since Christ has already come once to fulfill the 62 weeks period, leaving only one symbolic "week" yet to be fulfilled today.
Rome's 7 0F 10 Hills
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No, I think it's time someone else try to get you to see how simple that Dan.9 Scripture really is, ESPECIALLY since Christ has already come once to fulfill the 62 weeks period, leaving only one symbolic "week" yet to be fulfilled today.
Just quickly read through this and from what I can see it is very accurate. I think it is important for Christians to know and understand the facts on Islamic belief of the end times as it fits exactly in with the Christian understanding only showing the other side (as shown above).
The only thing I disagree with is I have been lead to believe(from Muslim friends) that the end time Muslim Jesus isn't the secondary figure. Mahdi comes first but from my understanding it is the Muslim Jesus that comes to assist and form an alliance with Mahdi but then is the final one to the end. Mahdi is in the line of the prophet. Jesus is not seen as the prophet.
From my understanding Muslims believe there will be a battle (somewhere near Syria) where the Muslim Jesus will come and assist the Mahdi who will be at war. Muslims believe that at this point half of Christians will become Muslims and the other half will become the enemy.
I just want to add I do not see the first beast with ten horns as Islam but rather that was Rome and is to be a new form of Rome (it is no coincidence that Babylon then Persia / Medes then Greece then Rome. Rome had seven kings then three prior to becoming an Empire. It is no coincidence that the first Emperor was alive during the birth of Christ. Rome was the beast in reign of the known world at the time of Christ and the spread of Christianity. It is still the Empire that has had the most power not even matched to this day. The Vatican still has influence on the world to this day. Who and where is the Pope in the trinity? Yet he represents Jesus and is seen as the closest man and spokesman to God in Christianity to the majority of non-Christian world. Since when did Jesus's Church have gold and wealth? He said the Holy Spirit is our Counselor in His absence. He gave the fruits of the Spirit to the Church and not one man - This does not mean I have a problem with Catholics or I do not see them as Christians. I just don't share their authorities). I see the second beast from the land as Islam.
Two horn = sunni & Shiite
Looks like a lamb = appears to be a religion of peace and sacrifice like Christianity (Jesus was the lamb who preached peace and love. Muhammad tries to appear like this but was a man of many wives and spread his message through plunder, war and fear)
speaks like a dragon = preaches words of war and hate (study the Quran to see the truth of this. I can provide many verses that are horrid - especially towards Jews and Christians).
Hi Veteran,
I wish you'd share your insight with the Scholars:
1. Per Walvoord: "...Montgomery, for all of his scholarship and knowledge of the history of interpretation, ends up with no reasonable interpretation at all.”, P.218
2. Per Walvoord: "...as Young points out, the word ‘sevens’ is in the masculine plural instead of the usual feminine plural. No clear explanation is given except that Young feels ‘it was for the deliberate purpose of calling attention to the fact that the word “sevens” is employed in an unusual sense.’", P.217
3. Per Walvoord: "...Young finally concludes after some discussion that Keit and Kliefoth are correct when they hold that the word ‘sevens’ does not necessarily mean year-weeks, but an intentionally indefinite designation of a period of time measured by the number seven, which chronological duration must be determined on other grounds.” , P.218
4. Per Montgomery: "... efforts to obtain an exact chronology fitting into the history of Salvation, after these 2,000 years of infinitely varied interpretations, would seem to preclude any use of the 70 Weeks for the determination of a definite prophetic chronology.", P. 217
5. Per Walvoord: "Some amillenarians, however, use a literal year time unit for the first sixty-nine weeks but an indefinite period for the last seven years, as in the case of Philip Mauro...", P. 218
6. Per Montgomery: "... the great Catholic chronographers ... as well as those of all subsequent chronographers (including the great Scalinger and Sir Isaac Newton) have failed.. And Edward Young too, finds no satisfactory conclusion for the seventy sevens ... and leaves it without a satisfactory explanation.", P. 217
7. Per Young, regarding "the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem": "This phrase has reference to the issuance of the word, not from a Persian ruler but from God." , P. 224 -
John Wolvoord, "Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation", Moody Press, Chicago, 1971
8. Per Newton: "We avoid also the doing violence to the language of Daniel, by taking the seven weeks and sixty two weeks for one number. Had that been Daniel’s meaning, he would have said sixty and nine weeks, and not seven weeks and sixty two weeks, a way of numbring used by no nation."
Isaac Newton, "Observations upon the Prophecies of Daniel, and the Apocalypse of St. John (1733)", http://www.isaacnewton.ca/daniel_apocalypse/pt1ch10.html
... and of course we know that this is only the beginning of the commentator problems because of their failure to obey the angelic instruction in 12:4 & 9.
BibleScribe
... so what are the other commentator problems?
Well, Chapter 7 ascribes the four beasts as end-time, but the commentators assign them as ancient empires. And where the Lion/Eagle depiction is so symbolic as to be indeterminable, the Bear is concise. And where this Bear has three-ribs between it's teeth, it should be easy to assign how the Medo/Persian Empire conquered three nations, and then let them go (to free up it's mouth) so it could attack an even greater prey at the end if it's empire reign.
The only problem is that the sequence NEVER HAPPENED during the Medo/Persian Empire.
Oops! I guess the commentators don't bother themselves with such details, because obviously GOD kinda, sorta missed History. Yep, maybe GOD either fell asleep or was indisposed when those words were written.
BibleScribe
Well, Chapter 7 ascribes the four beasts as end-time, but the commentators assign them as ancient empires. And where the Lion/Eagle depiction is so symbolic as to be indeterminable, the Bear is concise. And where this Bear has three-ribs between it's teeth, it should be easy to assign how the Medo/Persian Empire conquered three nations, and then let them go (to free up it's mouth) so it could attack an even greater prey at the end if it's empire reign.
The only problem is that the sequence NEVER HAPPENED during the Medo/Persian Empire.
Oops! I guess the commentators don't bother themselves with such details, because obviously GOD kinda, sorta missed History. Yep, maybe GOD either fell asleep or was indisposed when those words were written.
BibleScribe
Seven hills of Rome
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (Redirected from 7 hills of Rome)For the film starring Mario Lanza, see Seven Hills of Rome (film).
Schematic map of Rome showing the seven hillsThe seven hills are:
- Aventine Hill (Latin, Aventinus; Italian, Aventino)
- Caelian Hill (Caelius, Celio)
- Capitoline Hill (Capitolinus, Capitolino/Campidoglio)
- Esquiline Hill (Esquilinus, Esquilino)
- Palatine Hill (Palatinus, Palatino)
- Quirinal Hill (Quirinalis, Quirinale)
- Viminal Hill (Viminalis, Viminale)
The 7 Kings of Rome (753 BC-509 BC)
1. Romulus
REX ROMULUS753 BC716 BC
2. Numa Pompilius
REX NVMA POMPILIVS715 BC674 BC
3. Tullus Hostilius
REX TVLLVS HOSTILIVS673 BC642 BC
4. Ancus Marcius
REX ANCVS MARCIVS641 BC617 BC
5. Lucius Tarquinius Priscus
REX LVCIVS TARQVINIVS PRISCVS616 BC579 BC
6. Servius Tullius
REX SERVIVS TVLLIVS578 BC535 BC
7. Lucius Tarquinius Superbus
REX LVCIVS TARQVINIVS SVPERBVS534 BC509 BC
Lex Titia (The rule of three)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The Lex Titia was a Roman law passed on November 27, 43 BC, that granted triumvirates the right to rule for a period of five years. It is commonly known as the law that formalized and legalized the second triumvirate of Augustus, Mark Antony and Lepidus (the first triumvirate had existed outside of the law).
The passing of the Lex Titia marked the formal end of the Roman Republic, taking away most of the important decision-making powers from the Roman Senate and the popular assemblies, though in practice these powers had already been almost completely subverted by the contending parties in the civil war which was then beginning. The law, ostensibly only a temporary measure, was renewed in 38 BC, but quarrels between Octavian and Antony after the downfall of Lepidus in 36 BC prevented another period from being enacted, leading to the expiration of Lex Titia in 33 BC and the ensuing Final War of the Roman Republic.
The birth of the great Roman Empire (& the first Roman Emperor)
The Roman Empire (Latin: Imperium Romanum) was the post-Republican period of the ancient Roman civilization, characterised by an autocratic form of government and large territorial holdings in Europe and around the Mediterranean.[sup][5][/sup] The term is used to describe the Roman state during and after the time of the first emperor, Augustus. This includes from about 44 BC to 1453 AD
Augustus Augustus (
I find the honesty of Abbingdon particularly refreshing in this regard:
“[The] five of whom are fallen [presumes John’s work to be written in] Vespasian’s reign. Titus is to come, but only to last for a short time. Perhaps the writer knew of the hopeless condition of Titus’ health. He is therefore either using a literary convention, and assuming an earlier date than is the fact to give his words the force of a prophecy concerning Titus, or, more likely, his is using here material written in Vespasian’s reign which partly suits his purpose and partly not; for there are very good reasons for thinking that this book was written, not in Vespasian’s reign, but in Domitian’s.”[1]
[1] Eiselen, Frederick, Edwin Lewis, & David Downey, The Abingdon Bible Commentary, Abingdon Press, NY, 1929, p. 1392
If John is supposing that which you presume, then Abbingdon is calling John a ~liar~ (i.e., using a "literary convention, and assuming an earlier date that is the fact"). And because this is TRUE for a Roman fulfillment, then all who support that view share an equal opinion of John.
BibleScribe
Per Revelation 17, the seven beast kings only went up to the sixth in John's day with Domitian. The seventh was still expecting.
Christ made a distinction between the "seven mountains" and the seven kings...
Rev 17:9
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
(KJV)
That "woman" is put for the Babylon harlot there in Rev.17. She is to sit upon those "seven mountains" only at a specific time for the end of this world just prior to Christ's return. It's impossible to miss her time of judgment by Christ's coming in the later Revelation chapters.
But the seven kings, they are a separate idea, and also involve the pagan kings of OT history even before Rome ever was, with only the sixth possibly representing a Roman emperor in John's days. The seventh beast king was not yet, and still not yet today, for that will be the coming Antichrist/false messiah.
And then the "ten kings" (ten horns) of Rev.17:16 represent ten specific kings contemporary with each other, meaning they all rule at the same time with the coming Antichrist (seventh beast king). That points far away from Rome's history, because it has not happened yet.
Christ made a distinction between the "seven mountains" and the seven kings...
Rev 17:9
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
(KJV)
That "woman" is put for the Babylon harlot there in Rev.17. She is to sit upon those "seven mountains" only at a specific time for the end of this world just prior to Christ's return. It's impossible to miss her time of judgment by Christ's coming in the later Revelation chapters.
But the seven kings, they are a separate idea, and also involve the pagan kings of OT history even before Rome ever was, with only the sixth possibly representing a Roman emperor in John's days. The seventh beast king was not yet, and still not yet today, for that will be the coming Antichrist/false messiah.
And then the "ten kings" (ten horns) of Rev.17:16 represent ten specific kings contemporary with each other, meaning they all rule at the same time with the coming Antichrist (seventh beast king). That points far away from Rome's history, because it has not happened yet.
[email protected]
Choir Loft
Double prophecy? I'm not familiar with the term. Is it like double 'talk'?
Babylon exists to this day. It was NOT destroyed and Daniel's prophecy is for OUR future as well as the future of John the revelator. John says so in his passage. If John isn't sufficient how about St. Peter?
the following from 1 Peter 5:13
"She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you greetings, and so does my son, Mark."
Babylon is not America, Rome or a symbol for the pope, wall street or communism. It is a town and/or city. It stood in the days of Daniel, it stood in the days of John, it stood in the days of Peter and it stands to this day. This is not fiction, imagination or pseudo-interpretation of scripture. Peter says 'she who is in Babylon' meaning a real person in a real town and a real point in time.
The future destruction described by John in Revelations is very similar to a nuclear strike. Read the book, meaning the Bible. Read the words. They say Babylon IS. Enough with making up stories and false interpretations already. References to Babylon are REAL geographic points on earth. READ THE BOOK.
Stop imagining things and read the Bible.
revturmoil
New Member
Scribbler,
You're often doing the same thing you did on the other forum. Stop telling people that they are calling one another liars simply because they are in disagreement with you.
You seem to think that 'your theology' is the only correct one and everyone else is a liar.
Rome isn't the city of seven hills. I've said, and the diagram proves, that all of the hills are to the east of the Tiber river and Vatican hill is to the west of it. Vatican hill makes 8! And the word is 'oros' which means 'mountain', NOT HILL!
I tend to believe that the ten horned beast with seven heads and ten crowms, as well as the great whore, is an entire end-time entity. (So are the beast depicted in Daniel 7). This is an end-time symbol and not a historical account or a review of a sucession of past empires up to the present. The ten horned beast is in the formation stages as we speak. Is it coincidence that Mecca has ten spires (horns) and seven entrances? There are 18 countries in revolt/rebellion in the Middle-East and this situation will eventually reveal the man of sin. This is the apostasy.
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the REBELLION occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
Revelation 17:1 ¶And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
The word 'sitteth' means to occupy. Islam is the dominate religion of or 'occupies' the geographical area of the Middle-East. The Great whore is symbolic of Islam and all of it's radical sects who fill the harlots cup with the abominations of the earth
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
Being of one mind indicates this is an end-time symbol.
Take it as though Veteran is sharing his insights with YOU! Most of the scholars are as misled as you are!
First of all, my screen name is "BibleScribe".
Secondly, Abbingdon provide the TRUTH of the analysis:
Please feel free to edit Scripture verses and historical records that don't suit your doctrines.
BibleScribe
Hi [email protected],
I would suggest that a "type" of Babylon is what exists today. Have you not read the comic book "Superman"? The city where Clark Kent lived is "mystery Babylon".
BibleScribe
revturmoil
New Member
I'll call you scribbler as long as you keep calling people liars, telling them to inform the scholars or historians about their new insights, or like you telling me to 'edit the scriptures' to suit my doctrines.
We disagree...so get over it!
You're a wise guy! Stop with the judgemental self righteous know it all attitude.
Abingdon is a commentary and is susceptible to mistakes just like other commentaries.
If I may interject here....Two women are used in The Revelation to denote and symbolize churches. One women ( Rev 12 ) is the Jewish Faith. The other women ( Rev 17 / 18 ) is the Christian Faith . Both women begot ( gave birth to ) an offspring belief. The woman of Rev 12 begot Christianity. The woman of Rev 17 / 18 begot Protestantism. With this as a base of understanding then,
Babylon the Great is none other than the Catholic Church, per the following:
Chapter 17
1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters ( Italy, Rome, sits on the Mediteranian-sic- Sea, and also "sits", or oversees many different peoples, from many different nations - waters = many people):
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. ( Kings in the past have conspired with the RCC, and Catholics have been fooled by her luxaries and opulance as being part of being a Christian )
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. ( Composite symbol of a confederated union of nations whose structure and intent is opposed to God - the EU fits this description most closely to any other country at this time )
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:( The priestly class of the RCC are often arrayed in purple and scarlet in ceremonial dress, with very expensive garb and crosses, holding a chalice used for the sacrimental offering of the blood of Christ. Instead, she holds a cup full of the blood of those memebers of the RCC who toiled for righteousness over the years while the heirarchy of the church garnered all the advantages and power of their sweat and blood )
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. ( See note to verse 4 above )
7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. 8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. ( the AC ascends to power in the EU after ascending from the bottomless pit, and he is someone who was incarnate on earth previously )
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. ( Rome has always been referred-to as the "City of Seven hills" from antiquity )
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. ( A mystery yet to be solved )
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. ( The EU most closely fits this description )
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. ( This speaks how the authorities of the nations under AC, shall carry-out AC's plan to rid the world of Christians in the GT )
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. ( See comment to verse 1 above )
16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. ( The authorities of the nations, and the peoples in those nations that are under the rule of AC, shall carry-out AC's wishes to rid the world of Christianity. They shall kille Christians, aka, "eat her flesh", and shall burn Christian churches the world over, to the ground, aka, " burn her with fire" )
17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. 18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. (Rome by any other name )
Chapter 18
1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. ( I believe this to be Michael, the archangel )
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. ( I believe Michael is the precursor messenger of the 2nd advent of Christ, and at the zenith of his ministry, he will condemn the RCC to destruction )
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. ( Over the years and cennturies, merchants traded with the RCC, building her Cathedrals, making her churches and buildings, providing all sorts of bibles, crosses, candles, wood, services, etc., that runs the full gambit of materials, including those described herein )
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. ( This is a plea from God saying to dis-enfranchise yourself from this Church and belief, because she, and her heirarchy shall be utterly comnsummed )
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. ( Only a belief system intent on pleasing God, can have sins that have reached unto heaven )
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. ( NC )
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.( NC )
8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.( The heirarchy of the RCC shall be killed, and they will mourn who know them, and w/o the mark, they shall be unable to purchase foodstuffs )
9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. ( Those that traded with the RCC, and those that provide services for the RCC, and those that built their Cathedrals, and buildings, and bibles, and clothes, and candles, and crosses, and, and, and... shall miss her payments to them - some going bankrupt because of it )
11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more Any materials that have anything at all to do with Christianity )
12 The merchandise of gold ( crosses ), and silver ( other metal objects associated with "trinkets" of worship ), and precious stones,( ditto ) and of pearls ( ditto ), and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet ( clothing for ceremonial dress in worship, etc. ), and all thyine wood ( in buildings of the RCC ), and all manner vessels of ivory ( in Cathedrals, ie; trim work ), and all manner vessels of most precious wood ( ditto ), and of brass ( building materials ), and iron ( steel structures of buildings ), and marble ( Floors in Cathedrals, churches, etc ),
13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.( the fragrances are for worship services, etc. The foodstuffs are for their programs that "feed the poor", animals and army - but most importantly, THE SOULS OF MEN )
14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all. ( Originally the RCC had the proper intent, but time and money and power corrupted them. Christian jewelry, and other trinkets showing their faith in God, will be against the law to wear )
15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, 16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! 17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, 18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! 19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. ( This is implied sorrow )
20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her. ( The Apostles started the church only to have it corrupted, and those who gave their lives for The Faith, who were members, did so, unwittingly, to help the RCC get rich off their sweat and blood )
21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. ( I have reason to believe that this is Michael again )
22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; ( Implied services to the RCC )
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; ( The RCC is known for their candles in their cathedrals, where you have to make a "donation" to light the candle. Also the candle is referred to in The Rev as a church. ) and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee and in what institution, and in what building, under what system of belief, are wedding ceremonies carried out? ) for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. 24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth
Babylon the Great is none other than the Catholic Church, per the following:
Chapter 17
1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters ( Italy, Rome, sits on the Mediteranian-sic- Sea, and also "sits", or oversees many different peoples, from many different nations - waters = many people):
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. ( Kings in the past have conspired with the RCC, and Catholics have been fooled by her luxaries and opulance as being part of being a Christian )
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. ( Composite symbol of a confederated union of nations whose structure and intent is opposed to God - the EU fits this description most closely to any other country at this time )
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:( The priestly class of the RCC are often arrayed in purple and scarlet in ceremonial dress, with very expensive garb and crosses, holding a chalice used for the sacrimental offering of the blood of Christ. Instead, she holds a cup full of the blood of those memebers of the RCC who toiled for righteousness over the years while the heirarchy of the church garnered all the advantages and power of their sweat and blood )
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. ( See note to verse 4 above )
7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. 8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. ( the AC ascends to power in the EU after ascending from the bottomless pit, and he is someone who was incarnate on earth previously )
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. ( Rome has always been referred-to as the "City of Seven hills" from antiquity )
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. ( A mystery yet to be solved )
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. ( The EU most closely fits this description )
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. ( This speaks how the authorities of the nations under AC, shall carry-out AC's plan to rid the world of Christians in the GT )
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. ( See comment to verse 1 above )
16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. ( The authorities of the nations, and the peoples in those nations that are under the rule of AC, shall carry-out AC's wishes to rid the world of Christianity. They shall kille Christians, aka, "eat her flesh", and shall burn Christian churches the world over, to the ground, aka, " burn her with fire" )
17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. 18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. (Rome by any other name )
Chapter 18
1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. ( I believe this to be Michael, the archangel )
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. ( I believe Michael is the precursor messenger of the 2nd advent of Christ, and at the zenith of his ministry, he will condemn the RCC to destruction )
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. ( Over the years and cennturies, merchants traded with the RCC, building her Cathedrals, making her churches and buildings, providing all sorts of bibles, crosses, candles, wood, services, etc., that runs the full gambit of materials, including those described herein )
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. ( This is a plea from God saying to dis-enfranchise yourself from this Church and belief, because she, and her heirarchy shall be utterly comnsummed )
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. ( Only a belief system intent on pleasing God, can have sins that have reached unto heaven )
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. ( NC )
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.( NC )
8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.( The heirarchy of the RCC shall be killed, and they will mourn who know them, and w/o the mark, they shall be unable to purchase foodstuffs )
9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. ( Those that traded with the RCC, and those that provide services for the RCC, and those that built their Cathedrals, and buildings, and bibles, and clothes, and candles, and crosses, and, and, and... shall miss her payments to them - some going bankrupt because of it )
11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more Any materials that have anything at all to do with Christianity )
12 The merchandise of gold ( crosses ), and silver ( other metal objects associated with "trinkets" of worship ), and precious stones,( ditto ) and of pearls ( ditto ), and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet ( clothing for ceremonial dress in worship, etc. ), and all thyine wood ( in buildings of the RCC ), and all manner vessels of ivory ( in Cathedrals, ie; trim work ), and all manner vessels of most precious wood ( ditto ), and of brass ( building materials ), and iron ( steel structures of buildings ), and marble ( Floors in Cathedrals, churches, etc ),
13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.( the fragrances are for worship services, etc. The foodstuffs are for their programs that "feed the poor", animals and army - but most importantly, THE SOULS OF MEN )
14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all. ( Originally the RCC had the proper intent, but time and money and power corrupted them. Christian jewelry, and other trinkets showing their faith in God, will be against the law to wear )
15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, 16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! 17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, 18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! 19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. ( This is implied sorrow )
20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her. ( The Apostles started the church only to have it corrupted, and those who gave their lives for The Faith, who were members, did so, unwittingly, to help the RCC get rich off their sweat and blood )
21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. ( I have reason to believe that this is Michael again )
22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; ( Implied services to the RCC )
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; ( The RCC is known for their candles in their cathedrals, where you have to make a "donation" to light the candle. Also the candle is referred to in The Rev as a church. ) and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee and in what institution, and in what building, under what system of belief, are wedding ceremonies carried out? ) for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. 24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth
Once again, my screen name is "BibleScribe". Please act like the Christian you apparently purport to be.
Scondly, please allow the SOURCE of the Scholarship which provided the assessment with which your so vehemently disagree:
Thus:
It appears you have a disagreement with Abbingdon and World History. Please resolve your issues with them.
BibleScribe
revturmoil
New Member
If I may interject here....
Babylon the Great is none other than the Catholic Church, per the following:
Chapter 17
1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters ( Italy, Rome, sits on the Mediteranian-sic- Sea, and also "sits", or oversees many different peoples, from many different nations - waters = many people):
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. ( Kings in the past have conspired with the RCC, and Catholics have been fooled by her luxaries and opulance as being part of being a Christian )
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. ( Composite symbol of a confederated union of nations whose structure and intent is opposed to God - the EU fits this description most closely to any other country at this time )
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:( The priestly class of the RCC are often arrayed in purple and scarlet in ceremonial dress, with very expensive garb and crosses, holding a chalice used for the sacrimental offering of the blood of Christ. Instead, she holds a cup full of the blood of those memebers of the RCC who toiled for righteousness over the years while the heirarchy of the church garnered all the advantages and power of their sweat and blood )
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. ( See note to verse 4 above )
7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. 8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. ( the AC ascends to power in the EU after ascending from the bottomless pit, and he is someone who was incarnate on earth previously )
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. ( Rome has always been referred-to as the "City of Seven hills" from antiquity )
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. ( A mystery yet to be solved )
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. ( The EU most closely fits this description )
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. ( This speaks how the authorities of the nations under AC, shall carry-out AC's plan to rid the world of Christians in the GT )
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. ( See comment to verse 1 above )
16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. ( The authorities of the nations, and the peoples in those nations that are under the rule of AC, shall carry-out AC's wishes to rid the world of Christianity. They shall kille Christians, aka, "eat her flesh", and shall burn Christian churches the world over, to the ground, aka, " burn her with fire" )
17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. 18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. (Rome by any other name )
Chapter 18
1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. ( I believe this to be Michael, the archangel )
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. ( I believe Michael is the precursor messenger of the 2nd advent of Christ, and at the zenith of his ministry, he will condemn the RCC to destruction )
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. ( Over the years and cennturies, merchants traded with the RCC, building her Cathedrals, making her churches and buildings, providing all sorts of bibles, crosses, candles, wood, services, etc., that runs the full gambit of materials, including those described herein )
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. ( This is a plea from God saying to dis-enfranchise yourself from this Church and belief, because she, and her heirarchy shall be utterly comnsummed )
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. ( Only a belief system intent on pleasing God, can have sins that have reached unto heaven )
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. ( NC )
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.( NC )
8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.( The heirarchy of the RCC shall be killed, and they will mourn who know them, and w/o the mark, they shall be unable to purchase foodstuffs )
9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. ( Those that traded with the RCC, and those that provide services for the RCC, and those that built their Cathedrals, and buildings, and bibles, and clothes, and candles, and crosses, and, and, and... shall miss her payments to them - some going bankrupt because of it )
11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any moreAny materials that have anything at all to do with Christianity )
12 The merchandise of gold ( crosses ), and silver ( other metal objects associated with "trinkets" of worship ), and precious stones,( ditto ) and of pearls ( ditto ), and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet ( clothing for ceremonial dress in worship, etc. ), and all thyine wood ( in buildings of the RCC ), and all manner vessels of ivory ( in Cathedrals, ie; trim work ), and all manner vessels of most precious wood ( ditto ), and of brass ( building materials ), and iron ( steel structures of buildings ), and marble ( Floors in Cathedrals, churches, etc ),
13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.( the fragrances are for worship services, etc. The foodstuffs are for their programs that "feed the poor", animals and army - but most importantly, THE SOULS OF MEN )
14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all. ( Originally the RCC had the proper intent, but time and money and power corrupted them. Christian jewelry, and other trinkets showing their faith in God, will be against the law to wear )
15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, 16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! 17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, 18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! 19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. ( This is implied sorrow )
20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her. ( The Apostles started the church only to have it corrupted, and those who gave their lives for The Faith, who were members, did so, unwittingly, to help the RCC get rich off their sweat and blood )
21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. ( I have reason to believe that this is Michael again )
22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; ( Implied services to the RCC )
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; ( The RCC is known for their candles in their cathedrals, where you have to make a "donation" to light the candle. Also the candle is referred to in The Rev as a church. ) and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee
It's great that you're able to quote scripture. But you have provided me with no basis of how you arrived at your conclusions!
The Catholic church isn't Babylon the Great. Babylon isn't Rome, Italy! Babylon is Babylon. It's always is used as 'literal' Babylon'. The only thng that it is synonymous with or figurative of is false religion.
I have asked a hundred times on several forums to quote one scripture implicating Rome as an end-time player. You are welcome to be the first to quote that one verse of scripture!
AND...
Every verse of end-time prophecy in all of scripture points to a mixture of Arab and Islamic countries. NOT ROME, ITALY!
I consider it blasphemous to attribute the evils of the beast to the church or to associate the church with any end-time beast.
revturmoil
New Member
I'm not in disagreement with world history.
So when you snap out of your accusations and act like the Christian you purport to be I'll call you BibleScribe!
I have disagreement with Abington as well as many other commentaries... but not world history. That's your twisted and false analogy of what I said! Why do you assume that this ten horned beast is a depiction of "world history," or a succession of world empires?
Revelation 17:13 These have ONE MIND, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
This beast is symbolic of an end-time entity. They have "one mind" which indicates that the horns and heads of the beast are descriptive of an end-time empire to be.
1. Abbingdon correctly identifies a problem.
2. Christianity does not start with ~the other guy~, it starts with the individual.
3. Have you considered the significance of Daniel 2:45?
4. This "beast" is NOT an end-time entity in Rev. 12, and IS an end-time entity in Rev. 13.
BibleScribe
revturmoil
New Member
Thanks for your detailed exegesis.
The beast(s) I was talking about are...
The two and ten horned beast of Revelation 13. And the ten horned beast of Revelation 17, and the four beast in Daniel 7.
I'm in disagreement that the ten horned beast depicts a succession of world empires.
I'll ask you again..."How, by what scriptural basis do you come up with that idea?"
You're kidding, right?:blink:
Name another organization that uses as it's symbol a "golden chalice" ( as the whore is holding ). No town, country, nation, religious order, or other world religion uses as it's symbol a golden chalice. Furthermore, I never said it was Rome, or Italy or whatever. I said Babylon the Great was A BELIEF SYSTEM. And until you understand the significance of why women are used as symbols in The Revelation, you also will be in error concerning your interpretation of Rev 17 / 18. But, for your sake, I'll suffer you this:
A woman is used twice in The Rev as belief systems / churches. They are also both capable of giving birth. Indeed, the woman of Rev 12 literal "gives birth". And the woman of Rev 17 is "the Mother of prostitutes / harlots" also indicating that she, too, gave birth to someone. Women also are used to indicate they are a church who is wed to The Lamb, or to God.
The woman of Rev 12 is Judaism, which gave birth to Christianity.
The woman of Rev 17 is Catholicism, which gave birth to Protestantism.
You are welcome to think you know who Babylon the Great is, but you will be in error until you can justify why two women are used in The Rev, and why they were used, and what their significance is metaphorically and symbolically. Everyone who thinks that Babylon the Great is a place, country, person, or location is in error. Unfortunately, Vatican City and Catholicism is headquartered in Rome, and you will just have to live in denial of this until you accept The Truth.
I also see you totally disregarded all the descriptions and explanations given in my line x line analysis of Rev 17 / 18. You might want to check it out again, and reconsider.
Gentlemen,
I would suggest that the solution is as simple as reading map instructions. -- If you fail to proceed from the starting point, you are lost.
THE STARTING POINT:
Daniel 2:45 iron, bronze, clay, silver, gold = ~4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE~
From there, all the prophecies work out.
BibleScribe
To All,
Please be aware that Walvoord is exactly correct in the title of his book: "Daniel, The Key To Prophetic Revelation". -- If you fail to understand Daniel, then you will not understand the Book of Revelation.
BibleScribe
PS This does not suggest that Walvoord is correct in his prophetic theology.
1. The ten horns (Ref. Daniel 7 fourth beast; Rev. 13; & Rev. 17) align with the Daniel 2 ten toes. These are the ten nations which give their power to the beast, and are identified according to the Aug. 1993 vote.
2. The two horned beast is the "false prophet", -- the man who leads the one-world-government.
3. The three beasts of Daniel 7 are the Clay "divided" empire participants. The fourth beast is the one-world-government which subdues the three.
4. Have you read Daniel 2:45? If you have, then please tell me how many YOU count.
BibleScribe
I would suggest that the solution is as simple as reading map instructions. -- If you fail to proceed from the starting point, you are lost.
THE STARTING POINT:
Daniel 2:45 iron, bronze, clay, silver, gold = ~4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE~
From there, all the prophecies work out.
BibleScribe
To All,
Please be aware that Walvoord is exactly correct in the title of his book: "Daniel, The Key To Prophetic Revelation". -- If you fail to understand Daniel, then you will not understand the Book of Revelation.
BibleScribe
PS This does not suggest that Walvoord is correct in his prophetic theology.
1. The ten horns (Ref. Daniel 7 fourth beast; Rev. 13; & Rev. 17) align with the Daniel 2 ten toes. These are the ten nations which give their power to the beast, and are identified according to the Aug. 1993 vote.
2. The two horned beast is the "false prophet", -- the man who leads the one-world-government.
3. The three beasts of Daniel 7 are the Clay "divided" empire participants. The fourth beast is the one-world-government which subdues the three.
4. Have you read Daniel 2:45? If you have, then please tell me how many YOU count.
BibleScribe
As in most the stories of the old Testament where also a reference to coming of Jesus.
i.e. when God said to Abraham that he will have a son was it really a reference to Jesus?
The story of Moses is paralleled with Jesus.
The firstborn males being killed etc etc.
Egypt is often a representation for sin. Passing through the water is often compared as a symbol of water baptism. Being tested in the wilderness etc etc and entering into the promised land etc etc.
Also chapters like Ezekiel 27 & 28 being about Tyre but also being a verse with reference to Satan.
I certainly don't think the beast of the sea is the Catholic Church nor the Pope. I think the beast of the Sea is the Roman "Empire". It has gone away now but I believe it will reappear in a new form and'll be there up until the very end of days. I also think it will not be that obvious to spot but I'm guessing Rome will somehow be at the heart of it. The Roman Empire is to me a body of people connected with the gentiles. It is Jews who want miracles and Greeks who want science (or something like that - can't remember verse). The Old Testament is in Hebrew and the New Testament is in Greek. Rome grew out the presence of Greece and to me heads the gentile nations of the world. Greece (& Rome) are to me a symbol for the gentiles.
The second beast from the land is I believe a body of people connected with Abraham. The Jews were God's chosen people from Abraham (as to bring forth Jesus). The Arabs I believe are the people from Abraham's lineage who Satan has chosen to use to spread his deception. (as in to bring Muhammad & Islam).
Ishmael was born out of doubt when Abraham's wife advised. We know with Adam when he took a similar advice from his wife that it started with doubt of God's promise as fed from the devil.
That is why I believe the beast of the land is Islam (two horns = Shiite & Sunni)
Babylon is a city and is not the beast. The fact it sits on the beast with ten heads etc makes me believe it sits on the Roman Empire. I think Babylon is Rome or maybe the Vatican city. I personally see little in the way of Jesus in the Vatican. I do not see the pope as a man mentioned in the book of Acts. I see many suspicious symbolism in Rome connected to the moon and the sun as I do with Islam. This was something also seen with followers of Baal.
Why the importance? If Islam and the Arabs (Arabs as in the descendants of Ishmael = 12 princes from Ishmael compared to 12 sons from Jacob) is a mockery of God's promise of a son and also God's law (from Moses - Islam corrupts the scripture from Moses), then what is the mockery of Jesus and his church?
God's corrupted the seed of Abraham (sorry I do not believe Muhammad is a man of God) then how is he to corrupt the church and disciples of Jesus?
Babylon Is Fallen
[sup]1[/sup] After these things I saw another [sup][/sup]angel [sup][/sup]coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was [sup][/sup]illumined with his glory. [sup]2[/sup] And he cried out with a mighty voice, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She [sup][/sup]has become a dwelling place of demons and a [sup]4[/sup] I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “[sup][/sup]Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;
This verse makes me think she was not always evil. It also says for Christians to come out from being a part of her. Why then would Christians be within her?
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