Sabbath-Keeping

[ATP]

Even satan and his demons BELIEVE in God/Jesus....James 2..and therefore are "believers".....Do they follow His commandments? Nope...Sounds familiar doesn't it!

They don't follow His commandments because demons haven't accepted Christ as their Savior.

Believing in Him in this context means a bit more than just knowing Who He is and what He did for you at Calvary.
It even means more than trusting Him. It means loving Him. If you love Him, you are going to obey Him. If you love Him, you will try to keep yourself from sin....and if...make that when...you fall into temptation and sin, you will repent.

I agree.

 

[Barrd]

They don't follow His commandments because demons haven't accepted Christ as their Savior.


I agree.

Well, then, ATP, I don't understand what we've been arguing about all this time.
It seems that you think exactly as I do.

IOW, I do believe in eternal security...but only for those who keep themselves in the faith.
An apostate would be someone who has left the faith. You can say that they "had no root"...but without being able to know people's hearts, that's nothing more than a guess.
Perhaps someone you or I might think of as having left his faith, has only wandered off the path, and Jesus is even now leaving the ninety and nine to go and bring that one back...we should not be too quick to judge.

All we have to know is that God loves us so much that He sent His Son to die for us...let each one walk his or her own walk with the Lord in his or her own way...

 

[ATP]

Well, then, ATP, I don't understand what we've been arguing about all this time.

You believe that a believer can become an apostate over time and go to hell, but that's not biblical.

An apostate never crossed over from death to life. Apostates remain apostates. John 5:24 NIV.

 

[heretoeternity]

Romans 2.13 and James 1.22.....not just the hearers of the law, but doers of the law are justified before God...


Remember always, Salvation is through the Son of God, God's grace and commandments and not the sungod/satan and his doctrines and days of sunday,dec 25th and easter all of which are non Biblical and of pagan origin.

 

[ATP]

Romans 2.13 and James 1.22.....not just the hearers of the law, but doers of the law are justified before God...

Rom 2:13 is about righteousness, not the security of your salvation.

James 1:22 mentions nothing about salvation. It's simply stating what you should do.

 

[Phoneman777]

Didn't you say earlier that these people came out and confessed that they no longer believed? Christian turned atheist?

It's impossible for a born again believer to go back to atheism, especially when you've been saved by grace.

Either you're indwelled with the Holy Spirit or you're not.

ATP, Jesus said, "he (the Christian) that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved." Jeff has chosen not to endure to the end and if he continues on this course he will be lost.

I think this verse alone is enough to disprove OSAS.

 

[heretoeternity]

Rom 2:13 is about righteousness, not the security of your salvation.

James 1:22 mentions nothing about salvation. It's simply stating what you should do.

Read and think about your post..does it make sense to you? It sure does not make Biblical sense!

 

[ATP]

ATP, Jesus said, "he (the Christian) that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved." Jeff has chosen not to endure to the end and if he continues on this course he will be lost.

I think this verse alone is enough to disprove OSAS.

Where does it say "the Christian". Nowhere. In fact, the majority of those translations say "but the one", "but he who", "but the person", "but whoever", "but those".

Matt 24 is about end times events. Jesus is comparing the endurance of false prophets turning away from the faith in Matt 24:4-5 NIV, Matt 24:10-11 NIV vs the endurance of believers, and that is who will endure to the end; true believers in Christ John 17:26 NIV, 1 Cor 1:8-9 NIV, 2 Cor 1:9-10 NIV, 2 Tim 2:13 NIV, Heb 6:19 NIV, Heb 7:25 NIV, Heb 13:5 NIV, 1 Pet 1:23 NIV, 2 John 1:2 NIV, Jude 1:1 NIV, Jude 1:24-25 NIV.

Notice Matt 13:21 NIV and Matt 24:9 NIV both mention persecution, but Matt 13:21 NIV clearly states that apostates fall away because of persecution, not believers. Why? Because they had no root...

Matt 13:21 NIV But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

Matt 24:3-14 NIV As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” 4Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains. 9“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

2 Thess 2:3 KJV Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Read and think about your post..does it make sense to you? It sure does not make Biblical sense!

Well, it does make biblical sense because God is not contradictory. We are sealed until redemption, and by His blood our redemption is secure forever. If I'm wrong you would have to disprove these verses...

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 NIV And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Heb 9:12 NLT With his own blood--not the blood of goats and calves--he entered the Most Holy Place once for all time and secured our redemption forever.

 

[heretoeternity]

But if you do not obey God and follow His commandments you cannot say you are redeemed can you? Those who say they know Him and keep NOT His commandments are liars and the truth is not in them 1st John....does God redeem liars who do not repent from sin? Obviously you think so...interesting theology!

 

[ATP]

But if you do not obey God and follow His commandments you cannot say you are redeemed can you?

I can agree with that.

 

[Phoneman777]

Where does it say "the Christian". Nowhere. In fact, the majority of those translations say "but the one", "but he who", "but the person", "but whoever", "but those".

Matt 24 is about end times events. Jesus is comparing the endurance of false prophets turning away from the faith in Matt 24:4-5 NIV, Matt 24:10-11 NIV vs the endurance of believers, and that is who will endure to the end; true believers in Christ John 17:26 NIV, 1 Cor 1:8-9 NIV, 2 Cor 1:9-10 NIV, 2 Tim 2:13 NIV, Heb 6:19 NIV, Heb 7:25 NIV, Heb 13:5 NIV, 1 Pet 1:23 NIV, 2 John 1:2 NIV, Jude 1:1 NIV, Jude 1:24-25 NIV.

Notice Matt 13:21 NIV and Matt 24:9 NIV both mention persecution, but Matt 13:21 NIV clearly states that apostates fall away because of persecution, not believers. Why? Because they had no root...

Matt 13:21 NIV But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

Matt 24:3-14 NIV As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” 4Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains. 9“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

2 Thess 2:3 KJV Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


Well, it does make biblical sense because God is not contradictory. We are sealed until redemption, and by His blood our redemption is secure forever. If I'm wrong you would have to disprove these verses...

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 NIV And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Heb 9:12 NLT With his own blood--not the blood of goats and calves--he entered the Most Holy Place once for all time and secured our redemption forever.

ATP, the "he" of Matthew 24:12 KJV points to either one of the two following subjects:

1. "The converted person that endures unto the end shall be saved."
2. "The unconverted person that endures unto the end shall be saved."

While it is evident to the entire theological world that the number 1 is correct, which demands the existence of the possibility of the converted person not enduring to the end and not being saved, you stubbornly refuse to accept the plain testimony of Scripture, likely due to your sad devotion to OSAS - the idea that dead faith can obtain that which can only be obtained by living faith: eternal life.

 

[ATP]

ATP, the "he" of Matthew 24:12 KJV points to either one of the two following subjects:

1. "The converted person that endures unto the end shall be saved."
2. "The unconverted person that endures unto the end shall be saved."

That is your opinion. You would have to expand on Matt 24:13 NIV since the scripture starts with a "but".

The premise of your entire belief is that a born again believer can be thrown into the lake of fire, when in fact the lake of fire is God's wrath poured out on nonbelievers Rev 14:10 NIV. And scripture clearly states that believers are not appointed to wrath!

Think of it this way. If I'm wrong about Matt 24 then God is contradictory and Jesus lied to us. Jesus says we are sealed until redemption, and by His blood our redemption is secure forever. If I'm wrong you would have to disprove these verses...

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 NIV And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Heb 9:12 NLT With his own blood--not the blood of goats and calves--he entered the Most Holy Place once for all time and secured our redemption forever.

 

[ATP]

While it is evident to the entire theological world that the number 1 is correct, which demands the existence of the possibility of the converted person not enduring to the end and not being saved, you stubbornly refuse to accept the plain testimony of Scripture, likely due to your sad devotion to OSAS - the idea that dead faith can obtain that which can only be obtained by living faith: eternal life.

Seems to me that the unconverted person is the one that will fall away. Notice Matt 13:21 NIV and Matt 24:9 NIV both mention persecution, but Matt 13:21 NIV clearly states that apostates fall away because of persecution, not believers. Why? Because they had no root.

 

[Barrd]

You believe that a believer can become an apostate over time and go to hell, but that's not biblical.

An apostate never crossed over from death to life. Apostates remain apostates. John 5:24 NIV.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

There is a condition here...you must believe in Him. As long as we believe in Him, we have His promise that we will not come into condemnation.

And apostate is someone who has left his faith.

 

[ATP]

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

There is a condition here...you must believe in Him. As long as we believe in Him, we have His promise that we will not come into condemnation.

and believing only comes once. we are only justified once Barrd. once we believe we have eternal life....

John 3:14-16 NIV, John 3:36 NIV, John 4:13-14 NIV, John 5:24 NIV, John 5:39-43 NIV, John 6:40 NIV, John 6:47 NIV, John 6:54 NIV, John 10:28-30 NIV, John 17:1-3 NIV, Acts 13:46-48 NIV, Rom 5:21 NIV, Rom 6:22-23 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, 2 Thess 2:16-17 NIV, 1 Tim 1:15-16 NIV, Tit 1:1-3 NIV, Tit 3:7 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, Heb 9:15 NIV, 1 John 1:1-4 NIV, 1 John 5:9-14 NIV, 1 John 5:20 NIV...

on top of that, how can we stop believing in Him when He won't stop believing in us?........John 17:26 NIV, 1 Cor 1:8-9 NIV, 2 Cor 1:9-10 NIV, 2 Tim 2:13 NIV, Heb 6:19 NIV, Heb 7:25 NIV, Heb 13:5 NIV, 1 Pet 1:23 NIV, 2 John 1:2 NIV, Jude 1:1 NIV, Jude 1:24-25 NIV.

 

[Phoneman777]

That is your opinion. You would have to expand on Matt 24:13 NIV since the scripture starts with a "but".

The premise of your entire belief is that a born again believer can be thrown into the lake of fire, when in fact the lake of fire is God's wrath poured out on nonbelievers Rev 14:10 NIV. And scripture clearly states that believers are not appointed to wrath!

Think of it this way. If I'm wrong about Matt 24 then God is contradictory and Jesus lied to us. Jesus says we are sealed until redemption, and by His blood our redemption is secure forever. If I'm wrong you would have to disprove these verses...

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 NIV And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Heb 9:12 NLT With his own blood--not the blood of goats and calves--he entered the Most Holy Place once for all time and secured our redemption forever.

Wrong, ATP, the premise of my belief about Matthew 24:12 KJV is a plain understanding of good ol' KJV English which says that there are only two kinds of people in the world: the branch that yet abides in the Vine or the branch that is withering on the ground destined for the fire.

There is no spiritual Switzerland.

Therefore, "he that endureth unto the end shall be saved" must either refer to the one branch or the other branch.

 

[Phoneman777]

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

There is a condition here...you must believe in Him. As long as we believe in Him, we have His promise that we will not come into condemnation.

And apostate is someone who has left his faith.

Amen, TB!

OSAS is a form of apostasy which allows those in the church who have decided not to endure to the end to feel themselves secure in their lost condition. I fear that the longer they remain in this belief, the less audible the Lord's voice which calls them out of it will become.

 

[justaname]

Amen, TB!

OSAS is a form of apostasy which allows those in the church who have decided not to endure to the end to feel themselves secure in their lost condition. I fear that the longer they remain in this belief, the less audible the Lord's voice which calls them out of it will become.

And here is the definition of the doctrine...

The perseverance of the saints means that all those who are truly born again will be kept by God’s power and will persevere as Christians until the end of their lives, and that only those who persevere until the end have been truly born again.


Now again if you desire to continue the topic of OSAS please move over to that thread...

Thank you for your cooperation!

 

[ATP]

Wrong, ATP, the premise of my belief about Matthew 24:12 KJV is a plain understanding of good ol' KJV English which says that there are only two kinds of people in the world: the branch that yet abides in the Vine or the branch that is withering on the ground destined for the fire.

There is no spiritual Switzerland.

Therefore, "he that endureth unto the end shall be saved" must either refer to the one branch or the other branch.

Well, God is not contradictory. We are sealed for the day of redemption. With His own blood He secured our redemption forever. Amen...

http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/18216-the-doctrine-of-osas/

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 NIV And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Heb 9:12 NLT With his own blood--not the blood of goats and calves--he entered the Most Holy Place once for all time and secured our redemption forever.

 

[Barrd]

Well, God is not contradictory. We are sealed for the day of redemption. With His own blood He secured our redemption forever. Amen...

http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/18216-the-doctrine-of-osas/

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 NIV And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Heb 9:12 NLT With his own blood--not the blood of goats and calves--he entered the Most Holy Place once for all time and secured our redemption forever.

ATP, haven't you heard?
Staff says we can't talk about OSAS in this thread....we were politely asked to take it to the OSAS thread.
But if you want to talk about what day is the Sabbath, this is the place.

We don't want Staff to get cranky with us....