Sabbath-Keeping

[ATP]

ATP, haven't you heard?
Staff says we can't talk about OSAS in this thread....we were politely asked to take it to the OSAS thread.
But if you want to talk about what day is the Sabbath, this is the place.

We don't want Staff to get cranky with us....

Well, if Phoneman responds on this thread I am going to respond back.

 

[ATP]

ATP, Jesus said, "he (the Christian) that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved." Jeff has chosen not to endure to the end and if he continues on this course he will be lost.

I think this verse alone is enough to disprove OSAS.

Also, running the race and enduring is about crowns in heaven, not about salvation. God is the one who keeps us strong until the end..

1 Cor 4:12 NIV We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it;

1 Cor 9:24-27 NIV Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

1 Cor 1:8-9 NIV He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.

 

[Barrd]

Also, running the race and enduring is about crowns in heaven, not about salvation. God is the one who keeps us strong until the end..

1 Cor 4:12 NIV We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it;

1 Cor 9:24-27 NIV Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

1 Cor 1:8-9 NIV He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.

The verse says:
Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

There is not a word in there about crowns. I'm pretty sure that if Jesus had meant "he that endureth to the end shall receive a crown", He would have said so. But that is not what He said...he said "he that endureith to the end shall be saved".

Quite a difference, there....

EDIT:
BTW, ATP, what are you doing Saturday?

 

[ATP]

The verse says:
Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

There is not a word in there about crowns. I'm pretty sure that if Jesus had meant "he that endureth to the end shall receive a crown", He would have said so. But that is not what He said...he said "he that endureith to the end shall be saved".

Quite a difference, there....

Well, most people take that scripture out of context. We don't endure because of what we do, rather because of what God is doing in us.

1 Cor 1:8-9 NIV He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.

 

[Barrd]

Well, most people take that scripture out of context. We don't endure because of what we do, rather because of what God is doing in us.

1 Cor 1:8-9 NIV He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.

God does not force Himself on anyone.
There is a requirement, if you expect God to keep you strong till the end...you must put on the whole armor of God.

Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God

 

[ATP]

God does not force Himself on anyone.
There is a requirement, if you expect God to keep you strong till the end...you must put on the whole armor of God.

Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God

I agree, we should put on the shield of faith and not works Eph 6:16 NIV.

He is the one that began a good work in you, and He is the one that will finish it...

Phil 1:6 NIV being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

 

[Phoneman777]

Well, God is not contradictory. We are sealed for the day of redemption. With His own blood He secured our redemption forever. Amen...

http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/18216-the-doctrine-of-osas/

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 NIV And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Heb 9:12 NLT With his own blood--not the blood of goats and calves--he entered the Most Holy Place once for all time and secured our redemption forever.

ATP, did you not hear what the Moderator said about continuing OSAS in another thread? Rules are necessary to maintain order, be they Christianity Board rules of what God wrote with His finger in stone. Sadly, it is the unavoidable outcome of OSAS: to disregard any and all rules in the name of "freedom".

 

[Barrd]

ATP, did you not hear what the Moderator said about continuing OSAS in another thread? Rules are necessary to maintain order, be they Christianity Board rules of what God wrote with His finger in stone. Sadly, it is the unavoidable outcome of OSAS: to disregard any and all rules in the name of "freedom".

I agree.

We need to respect the Moderator, and move the OSAS discussion to a more appropriate thread.

Thanks, PM!

 

[ATP]

ATP, did you not hear what the Moderator said about continuing OSAS in another thread? Rules are necessary to maintain order, be they Christianity Board rules of what God wrote with His finger in stone. Sadly, it is the unavoidable outcome of OSAS: to disregard any and all rules in the name of "freedom".

Let's do it. Let's move.

 

[heretoeternity]

Thank you for moving...sigh...
And remember the sabbath day to keep it Holy...Genesis 2 and Exodus 20


Remember always, salvation is through the Son of God, God's grace and commandments, and not the sungod/satan and his doctrines and days of sunday, dec 25th and easter, all of which are non Biblical and of pagan origin.

 

[Phoneman777]

And here is the definition of the doctrine...
The perseverance of the saints means that all those who are truly born again will be kept by God’s power and will persevere as Christians until the end of their lives, and that only those who persevere until the end have been truly born again.
Now again if you desire to continue the topic of OSAS please move over to that thread...
Thank you for your cooperation!

Hi, Justaname, long time no see! The person who hijacked this thread in order to debate OSAS has been advised and I thank you for your help.

Regarding your interpretation of Matthew 24:13, I think you've made a HUGE mistake because it is clear that Jesus is contrasting the "he" of verse 13 with the "many" of verse 12:

"And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many will grow cold, but he that endureth into the end, the same shall be saved."

You suppose only "truly born again" people will endure to the end but those of verse 12 who obviously don't endure to the end CAN ONLY BE TRULY BORN AGAIN, AS WELL.

Why? Because their "AGAPE" grows cold, and only truly born again Christians are capable of "AGAPE".

Therefore, by these two verses, Jesus is telling us there will be those who's "AGAPE" will grow cold, they will fail to endure to the end, and will be lost, but those who's "AGAPE" does not grow cold, by which they are enabled to endure to the end, these will be saved. What do you think of this comparison of 12 and 13?

 

[ATP]

Hi, Justaname, long time no see! The person who hijacked this thread in order to debate OSAS has been advised and I thank you for your help.

You're such a hypocrite, calling people out when we've been debating for like a month. And you're still continuing with Matt 24:13??

 

[ATP]

Regarding your interpretation of Matthew 24:13, I think you've made a HUGE mistake because it is clear that Jesus is contrasting the "he" of verse 13 with the "many" of verse 12:

"And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many will grow cold, but he that endureth into the end, the same shall be saved."

You suppose only "truly born again" people will endure to the end but those of verse 12 who obviously don't endure to the end CAN ONLY BE TRULY BORN AGAIN, AS WELL.

Why? Because their "AGAPE" grows cold, and only truly born again Christians are capable of "AGAPE".

Therefore, by these two verses, Jesus is telling us there will be those who's "AGAPE" will grow cold, they will fail to endure to the end, and will be lost, but those who's "AGAPE" does not grow cold, by which they are enabled to endure to the end, these will be saved. What do you think of this comparison of 12 and 13?

Those who are born again will endure to the end because they have the root of salvation and are not filled with dead mans bones.

Matt 13:21 NIV But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.
Matt 24:9 NIV “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.
1 Cor 4:12 NIV We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it;

 

[Barrd]

Those who are born again will endure to the end because they have the root of salvation and are not filled with dead mans bones.

Matt 13:21 NIV But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.
Matt 24:9 NIV “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.
1 Cor 4:12 NIV We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it;

This is evidently one of those arguments that has two sides....but no end.

To the end of my days, I will continue to believe that we must keep ourselves in the faith...we must resist temptation, and we must repent when we "mess up".
I will never believe that Christ's sufferings provide a "free ride"...there must be a response from us. There must be love, there must be obedience...God must be first in our lives.
Living faith will produce fruit, in the same way that a living vine produces grapes.
I will always believe that there are unlearned and unstable people who twist the scriptures to their own destruction....and, having blinded themselves, will continue to lead other blind ones into the pit with them.
Now, if I err, I err on the side of Christ...I will always believe in Him, and I will always love and strive to obey Him.
Let others do as they will....as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord....

 

[ATP]

To the end of my days, I will continue to believe that we must keep ourselves in the faith...

..and you're going to wake up tomorrow without the security of your redemption. that is false. either you have the root or you don't.

Matt 13:6 NIV But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.
Matt 13:21 NIV But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.
Rom 11:18 NIV do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.
Rev 22:16 NIV “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give youfn this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

 

[Phoneman777]

You're such a hypocrite, calling people out when we've been debating for like a month. And you're still continuing with Matt 24:13??

This is evidently one of those arguments that has two sides....but no end.

To the end of my days, I will continue to believe that we must keep ourselves in the faith...we must resist temptation, and we must repent when we "mess up".
I will never believe that Christ's sufferings provide a "free ride"...there must be a response from us. There must be love, there must be obedience...God must be first in our lives.
Living faith will produce fruit, in the same way that a living vine produces grapes.
I will always believe that there are unlearned and unstable people who twist the scriptures to their own destruction....and, having blinded themselves, will continue to lead other blind ones into the pit with them.
Now, if I err, I err on the side of Christ...I will always believe in Him, and I will always love and strive to obey Him.
Let others do as they will....as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord....

I like your post. It mingles the determination in our hearts to live as Jesus lived with the knowledge that it is not possible without Him in our hearts and the comfort that there is forgiveness proffered to those who slip up in the process of learning to walk as Jesus walked. It's a shame that Satan has so deluded people into believing that dead faith can obtain that which only living faith can obtain: eternal life.

 

[Barrd]

I like your post. It mingles the determination in our hearts to live as Jesus lived with the knowledge that it is not possible without Him in our hearts and the comfort that there is forgiveness proffered to those who slip up in the process of learning to walk as Jesus walked. It's a shame that Satan has so deluded people into believing that dead faith can obtain that which only living faith can obtain: eternal life.

Well, PM, Satan has always been out to separate people from God...and he has always used the same m.o.
He's very good at deception. He knows the Bible better than anyone else, and he is an expert at twisting scriptures.

 

[ATP]

I like your post. It mingles the determination in our hearts to live as Jesus lived with the knowledge that it is not possible without Him in our hearts and the comfort that there is forgiveness proffered to those who slip up in the process of learning to walk as Jesus walked. It's a shame that Satan has so deluded people into believing that dead faith can obtain that which only living faith can obtain: eternal life.

Well, PM, Satan has always been out to separate people from God...and he has always used the same m.o.
He's very good at deception. He knows the Bible better than anyone else, and he is an expert at twisting scriptures.

If I'm the one twisting scriptures then how am I twisting Eph 1:13-14, Eph 4:30, John 6:47 and Heb 9:12. Works salvation is false and any true believer knows this.

 

[Barrd]

If I'm the one twisting scriptures then how am I twisting Eph 1:13-14, Eph 4:30, John 6:47 and Heb 9:12. Works salvation is false and any true believer knows this.

You are lifting a handful of verses from the context of the Bible, and ignoring dozens of other verses that disagree with you.
Nobody here is advocating "works salvation." We all know that all of our works are filthy rags...that is why we need a Saviour to begin with.
However we are to bear fruit, aren't we?
What could possibly be wrong in striving to follow Him...loving Him, obeying Him...repenting when we "mess up" and striving to live a more holy life?
I honestly do not understand your problem with that....

 

[ATP]

You are lifting a handful of verses from the context of the Bible, and ignoring dozens of other verses that disagree with you.

Bu God is not contradictory. He is not a liar. He doesn't say in this verse you can't lose your salvation and then in another verse He says you can. :wacko: