Sabbath-Keeping

[UppsalaDragby]

When the Jews criticized Jesus for healing on the Sabbath, He told them that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. He could just as easily have said that the Sabbath was made for the Jews, and not the Jews for the Sabbath, but that is not what He said.

Well he could have, yes, but ... why would Jesus have to say something concerning a fact that was not only obvious at the time, but which would also contradict scripture?

For us today, in hindsight - knowing that gentiles would be ingrafted into Israel, it might have seemed obvious to do so, but Jesus was addressing people that already understood that the sabbath was given to the Jews. So not only was such a clarification not necessary, you also need to bear in mind that the sabbath was not only given to the Jews to remind them of the creation week. It was also given to remind them that they were slaves in Egypt:

"Remember that you were slaves in Egypt, and that I, the Lord your God, rescued you by my great power and strength. That is why I command you to observe the Sabbath." (Deut 5:15)

Even though I think there is a figurative connotation here, it is obvious that most of the rest of mankind had never set their foot into Egypt.

Now as I pointed out, the "escape from Egypt" was most likely figurative, representing our escape from bondage to sin. We were once "slaves to sin", but through faith in the new creation and by follwing the Spirit, we have been set free from our bondage. Does that mean that we never sin? No, we are still on a journey to the promised land - which in that analogy would represent the perfection of the Saints at the end of time. All of this ties together with the real sabbath rest, not the Mosaic shadow.

He said that it was made for man. Now, I don't know about you, but I am a member of the race known as "man"...therefore the Sabbath was made for me.

The word "man" used in this verse can be used similarly to the way we use it in English. It does not necessarily mean the entire human race, but rather can simply apply to "human beings". If I went to finland and noticed that the all had the habit of eathing cans of cat food I don't think I would tell them that cat food was not made for Islanders. I would say that cat food was not made for human consumption. (A bad analogy, I know..)

I think the problem is that you are associating the Sabbath today with the Sabbath of the Old Testament. This is no longer the Sabbath where you get stoned to death if you are caught picking up sticks.

Stoning has nothing to do with the reason I don't think we are under the obligation to observe the Mosaic sabbath. You seem to be trying to guess, instead of just asking me. No, the reason has to do with what scripture tells us - that we are no longer under the Old Covenant - with or without stoning.

The Lord of the Sabbath (Who is Jesus) has declared that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath day.

Which is perfectly true. It is also lawful to do good on the other days too, is it not? Again, you are reading too much into this verse. Jesus was simplyl responding to a certain group of poeple in defence of the actions of his disciples during that particular day. He was not making any statement about Christians being bound to keep the Mosaic sabbath.

We live in an era where we are surrounded by labor saving devices. There should be no problem at all in preparing for a day of rest.
I honestly do not see what all the screaming is about.

Firstly, I don't have any issue with people resting on the sabbath... or any other day of the week for that matter. I have an issue when people introduce doctrines that disagree with what scripture says. And what does scripture say? It says:

1. "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ."

2. "One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind." (Rom 14:5).

Secondly, I am not screaming. I just think it is important that our doctrines are sound. That is an important part of "contending for the gospel". I see it as being of utmost importance that what is being taught is not based on any human theories, that it does not add to scripture, and that it harmonizes with all of scripture.

 

[Barrd]

Well he could have, yes, but ... why would Jesus have to say something concerning a fact that was not only obvious at the time, but which would also contradict scripture?

For us today, in hindsight - knowing that gentiles would be ingrafted into Israel, it might have seemed obvious to do so, but Jesus was addressing people that already understood that the sabbath was given to the Jews. So not only was such a clarification not necessary, you also need to bear in mind that the sabbath was not only given to the Jews to remind them of the creation week. It was also given to remind them that they were slaves in Egypt:

"Remember that you were slaves in Egypt, and that I, the Lord your God, rescued you by my great power and strength. That is why I command you to observe the Sabbath." (Deut 5:15)

Even though I think there is a figurative connotation here, it is obvious that most of the rest of mankind had never set their foot into Egypt.

Now as I pointed out, the "escape from Egypt" was most likely figurative, representing our escape from bondage to sin. We were once "slaves to sin", but through faith in the new creation and by follwing the Spirit, we have been set free from our bondage. Does that mean that we never sin? No, we are still on a journey to the promised land - which in that analogy would represent the perfection of the Saints at the end of time. All of this ties together with the real sabbath rest, not the Mosaic shadow.


The word "man" used in this verse can be used similarly to the way we use it in English. It does not necessarily mean the entire human race, but rather can simply apply to "human beings". If I went to finland and noticed that the all had the habit of eathing cans of cat food I don't think I would tell them that cat food was not made for Islanders. I would say that cat food was not made for human consumption. (A bad analogy, I know..)


Stoning has nothing to do with the reason I don't think we are under the obligation to observe the Mosaic sabbath. You seem to be trying to guess, instead of just asking me. No, the reason has to do with what scripture tells us - that we are no longer under the Old Covenant - with or without stoning.


Which is perfectly true. It is also lawful to do good on the other days too, is it not? Again, you are reading too much into this verse. Jesus was simplyl responding to a certain group of poeple in defence of the actions of his disciples during that particular day. He was not making any statement about Christians being bound to keep the Mosaic sabbath.


Firstly, I don't have any issue with people resting on the sabbath... or any other day of the week for that matter. I have an issue when people introduce doctrines that disagree with what scripture says. And what does scripture say? It says:

1. "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ."

2. "One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind." (Rom 14:5).

Secondly, I am not screaming. I just think it is important that our doctrines are sound. That is an important part of "contending for the gospel". I see it as being of utmost importance that what is being taught is not based on any human theories, that it does not add to scripture, and that it harmonizes with all of scripture.

Yes, Jesus knew that the Gentiles would be grafted in. Not only that, but one of His Own disciples was a greek...a man named Philip. It is a mistake to assume that everyone in the crowd that heard Him knew that the Sabbath was given only to the Jews. Among the multitudes that followed Him where ever He went, there were bound to be several Gentiles.
Besides, Jesus was always careful to say just what He meant. Evidently, He meant that the Sabbath was made for man, because that is what He said.

Now, I was always taught that the Egyptian slavery represents mankind's slavery to sin, which God, by His great power, has set us free from. Figuratively, then, we have all been set free by God's great power and strength...and the Sabbath is for all of us. I still do not see how this is a problem.

LOL...cat food? Yes, I'm afraid it was a very bad analogy. But you get credit for trying, anyway. I would have to agree with you that cat food is made for cats...all cats, not just cats living in Finland. And it is not for people...not any people, whether they live in Finland or not.
In the same way, the Sabbath is made for man...all of man, whether they are Jewish or Gentile. It is not made for cats, no matter whether their owners are Jewish or Gentile...

We are no longer under the Old Covenant, that is true. However, the New Covenant does include God's law. The difference is that
1. We no longer need a priesthood to teach us about God (although for some reason we still pay clergy for this), as we will know Him personally. Didn't Jesus say that HIs sheep know His voice, an He knows them? They will not listen to the voice of strangers.
2. Grace. Under the New Covenant, God has promised to forgive our sin. He didn't promise to take the law out of the way....but He did promise that we would be forgiven when we find it impossible to keep.

It being lawful to do good on the Sabbath day is a major issue. Each of the men accusing Jesus, He said, would help His animal if it fell into a pit, and yet they had a problem because He healed a man on that day, or because He and His disciples picked corn and warmed it between their hands on that day. Under the Old Covenant, either of those things was enough to get a person stoned...remember the guy picking up sticks?...but Jesus, Who is God in the flesh, explained that it was lawful to do good on the Sabbath.

It amazes me that people who refute the Sabbath always go to Paul. Poor, misunderstood Paul would be the first one to tell you that he is not the head of the church. If he were here for us to consult, he would tell us that if anything he said even seemed to contradict something that Jesus said, it is because we have misunderstood him. Paul says that we are not justified by works of the law, but he never tells us that it is alright for us to ignore the law, or to break the law. Paul, himself, says that he wishes to keep the law, but that his flesh makes it impossible for him, and he cries out "Who shall deliver me from this body of death"? We like to focus on the deliverance part...but I think we ought to take some time to consider what it means to be trapped in a body of death.
Yes, hallelujah that the Lord took our punishment and brought to us the gift of eternal life...but let's never forget the price He paid for that gift.
Long ago, someone told me that every cut of the whip that He bore was put there by our sin. I remember as a little girl crying my eyes out thinking about that. Little girl? The thought still breaks my heart, even as an old great grandmother...the little girl insides of me is still weeping at the thought that something I did caused His suffering.
I don't think we actually "get" that. By His stripes (stripes!) we are healed.

Therefore, do not judge me that I do my best to keep the Lord's Sabbath.
I also do not eat pork or shellfish...
If you come to my house for Easter dinner, you will not find a ham on my table. Just as well that my family prefers turkey...

And isn't it grand that in our time we have electric lights? We need not fear the darkness of the new moon...but there is another kind of darkness that we seem to have forgotten all about.

This controversy over the Sabbath is pure human foolishness.

 

[UppsalaDragby]

Yes, Jesus knew that the Gentiles would be grafted in. Not only that, but one of His Own disciples was a greek...a man named Philip. It is a mistake to assume that everyone in the crowd that heard Him knew that the Sabbath was given only to the Jews. Among the multitudes that followed Him where ever He went, there were bound to be several Gentiles.

Oh I am very sure that Philip knew exactly who the sabbath was given to. But even if he didn't, I doubt Jesus would have expressed himself in the way you suggested. After all he was responding to the Pharasees, not to Philip, or any of the other Gentiles that "may" have been present.

Now let me give you "2 or 3 witnesses to disprove the false idea that the sabbath was given to all people at all times:

1) the Gentiles "did not have the law" (Romans 2:14), and were "excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise" (Ephesians 2:12), and

2) the Old Covenant law was not made with either the patriarchs, or anyone else that lived before Sinai:

"It was NOT with our fathers that the LORD made this covenant, but with US, with all of us who are alive here today. (Deut 5:3,4)

3) The Sabbath was "made known" by Moses, proving that no one knew about it before that time:

"You made known to them your holy Sabbath and gave them commands, decrees and laws through your servant Moses." (Neh 9:14)

So this is exactly what I am talking about. We need to harmonize scripture, not just pick out a verse or a word or two, and think that it proves our points. That's why the 2 or 3 wittnesses rule is all about.

Now, I was always taught that the Egyptian slavery represents mankind's slavery to sin, which God, by His great power, has set us free from. Figuratively, then, we have all been set free by God's great power and strength...and the Sabbath is for all of us. I still do not see how this is a problem.

That doesn't make sense at all. We have been set free.. therefore the sabbath is for all of us?? I think you need to look at what scripture teaches us about freedom:

"But now we have been released from the law, since we have died to what held us, so that we may serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old letter of the law." (Rom 7:6)

"Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. (2 Cor 3:17)

Notice, the freedom we have in Christ is NOT the Mosiac law, but the Spirit of Christ. And do we get the freedom of the Spirit by observing the law? No:

"You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?" (Gal 3:1)

And I could go on and on.

We are no longer under the Old Covenant, that is true. However, the New Covenant does include God's law. The difference is that

1. We no longer need a priesthood to teach us about God (although for some reason we still pay clergy for this), as we will know Him personally. Didn't Jesus say that HIs sheep know His voice, an He knows them? They will not listen to the voice of strangers.

2. Grace. Under the New Covenant, God has promised to forgive our sin. He didn't promise to take the law out of the way....but He did promise that we would be forgiven when we find it impossible to keep.

There is nothing in scripture that teaches us that God kept the law and just "lowered the rib". It teaches us that we are no longer under the Old Covenant, which not only "includes" the 10 commandments, those commandments themselves were specifically identified as "the words of the covenant":

"He wrote down on the tablets the words of the covenant-the Ten Commandments." (Ex 34:28)

So if you agree that the old covenant is obsolete, then you are also agreeing that the 10 commandments are obsolete. And there is a very good reason why they are obsolete - they don't do what people think they do. The commandments do not solve the problem of sin. Paradoxically they just make things worse! They make sin increase (Rom 5:20), they produce covetous desires (Rom 7:8), the bring death and condemnation (2 Cor 3:7-9), they do not impart life (Gal 3:21), they are the law of sin and death (Rom 8:2), they made nothing perfect (Heb 7:19), they bring wrath (Rom 4:14,15) and they were powerless to do what was achieved through Jesus (Rom 8:3).

It being lawful to do good on the Sabbath day is a major issue. Each of the men accusing Jesus, He said, would help His animal if it fell into a pit, and yet they had a problem because He healed a man on that day, or because He and His disciples picked corn and warmed it between their hands on that day. Under the Old Covenant, either of those things was enough to get a person stoned...remember the guy picking up sticks?...but Jesus, Who is God in the flesh, explained that it was lawful to do good on the Sabbath.

I have already dealt with this, why are you repeating it?

It amazes me that people who refute the Sabbath always go to Paul.

Why not, when it was Paul who wrote the doctrine for the Christain church? I notice that a lot of "Jewish roots" people, which you seem to be, say things like that, which I find really odd.

Poor, misunderstood Paul would be the first one to tell you that he is not the head of the church.

I never claimed that Paul was head of the church, so what's your point?

If he were here for us to consult, he would tell us that if anything he said even seemed to contradict something that Jesus said, it is because we have misunderstood him.

The reason people missunderstood Paul, and still missunderstand him, is because it seemed to them that since Paul was saying that we no longer are under the law then surely that must be interpreted as our being free to sin all we want. But that kind of conclusion only comes when people do not study Paul's message in its entirety.

Paul says that we are not justified by works of the law, but he never tells us that it is alright for us to ignore the law, or to break the law.

And neither am I. Paul promised us that if we "live by the spirit then we will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature". Putting oneself under a law that was made "not for the righteous, but for rebells and lawbreakers" does not stop anyone from doing evil. Those who were most zealous for the law, and primarily the sabbath were the greatest sinners in history. So you need to take this into consideration, instead of missunderstanding Paul.

Paul, himself, says that he wishes to keep the law, but that his flesh makes it impossible for him, and he cries out "Who shall deliver me from this body of death"? We like to focus on the deliverance part...but I think we ought to take some time to consider what it means to be trapped in a body of death.
Yes, hallelujah that the Lord took our punishment and brought to us the gift of eternal life...but let's never forget the price He paid for that gift.

Which is what I have been saying all along. At least you acknowledge that we cannot keep the law. But the solution was never to reduce the 10 commandments to 10 suggestions. That is not what grace and faith is all about. It involves a totally different mindset altogether. We are no longer to focus on lists of rules, and God is no longer "counting sins". We have been set free from that way of thinking and can now concentrate on following the Spirit.

That's all for now...

 

[Barrd]

Evidently, you see the Sabbath as a burden. That is very sad.
You know, I'd be willing to bet that you keep most of the law of Moses yourself, without even thinking about it. For instance, you bathe regularly in water, don't you? And you keep your clothing and your home clean? Mold or mildew are not allowed to grow unchecked in your house, I'd just about bet on it.
Of course, you are not obligated in any way to keep those laws any more, they are Old Covenant laws. Still...we do these things for our own health and comfort. And they are so much easier, with indoor plumbing, aren't they?
And speaking of indoor plumbing...you may not need a weapon with a spade on one end of it...but I'll bet that you do bury your waste when you relieve yourself, don't you? And you have a special place where you do this...of course the miracle of indoor plumbing is a very special blessing in this department, isn't it?
And you seem very sure that the Ten Commandments are "Old Covenant Law", and not binding on Christians in our day.
Yet I'm pretty sure that you don't worship any other gods...do you? You don't make idols to worship, I hope. You don't "take the Name of the Lord in vain"...of course, there are other ways to do that other than to use His Name as a swear word, but that's a whole other thread...
Skipping over the troublesome fourth command...
Do you honor your parents? That is, do you care for them in their old age? Or did you just stick them off into a home somewhere and forget them? I mean, as long as you are footing the bill for their care, you've "done your duty"...I do know Christians...or should I say "Christians" who think that way.
Have you killed anyone, that you know of?
I would ask you if you had committed adultery...but if you have, I doubt you'd type it out for us. After all, your spouse just might be in the room!
You don't have a penchant for taking things that don't belong to you, do you? Or are you one of those WalMart shoppers who take the "five-finger-discount"?
Are you a gossip? Do you tell nasty fibs about people? I hope not.
I'd bet that you don't purposely do any of those things, nor would you teach others that doing them would be okay. Yet, we aren't "under the law"...so what's the problem?
Of course, none of these things would make you very popular...with God or with men. And some of them could land you in prison...or worse!
And, of course, we know that the Lord expanded on these commandments while He was here with us. Didn't He?

 

[UppsalaDragby]

Evidently, you see the Sabbath as a burden. That is very sad.

Well, evidently you are not listening to what I am saying, and that is very sad. I have told you why I don't believe that Christians are required to keep the Mosaic sabbath, which I have done in great detail providing scriptures to support what I say.

If you really believe that we are under the 10 commandments, then don't give false testimony against your brother.

Now why don't you address these scriptures rather than opting to missrepresent my views?

You know, I'd be willing to bet that you keep most of the law of Moses yourself, without even thinking about it. For instance, you bathe regularly in water, don't you? And you keep your clothing and your home clean? Mold or mildew are not allowed to grow unchecked in your house, I'd just about bet on it.
Of course, you are not obligated in any way to keep those laws any more, they are Old Covenant laws. Still...we do these things for our own health and comfort. And they are so much easier, with indoor plumbing, aren't they?
And speaking of indoor plumbing...you may not need a weapon with a spade on one end of it...but I'll bet that you do bury your waste when you relieve yourself, don't you? And you have a special place where you do this...of course the miracle of indoor plumbing is a very special blessing in this department, isn't it?

Most people, including atheists, do these things. So what's your point?

And you seem very sure that the Ten Commandments are "Old Covenant Law", and not binding on Christians in our day.
Yet I'm pretty sure that you don't worship any other gods...do you? You don't make idols to worship, I hope. You don't "take the Name of the Lord in vain"...of course, there are other ways to do that other than to use His Name as a swear word, but that's a whole other thread...
Skipping over the troublesome fourth command...
Do you honor your parents? That is, do you care for them in their old age? Or did you just stick them off into a home somewhere and forget them? I mean, as long as you are footing the bill for their care, you've "done your duty"...I do know Christians...or should I say "Christians" who think that way.
Have you killed anyone, that you know of?
I would ask you if you had committed adultery...but if you have, I doubt you'd type it out for us. After all, your spouse just might be in the room!
You don't have a penchant for taking things that don't belong to you, do you? Or are you one of those WalMart shoppers who take the "five-finger-discount"?
Are you a gossip? Do you tell nasty fibs about people? I hope not.
I'd bet that you don't purposely do any of those things, nor would you teach others that doing them would be okay. Yet, we aren't "under the law"...so what's the problem?
Of course, none of these things would make you very popular...with God or with men. And some of them could land you in prison...or worse!
And, of course, we know that the Lord expanded on these commandments while He was here with us. Didn't He?

Again, all you are doing is confusing the 10 commandments with a sense of morality, which the majority of people share. The fact that someone behaves morally does not mean that they are under the 10 commandments.

Now I gave you scripture that proves that the Mosiac sabbath was not given to all people at all times. Why don't you be honest and acknowledge this, rather than resorting to arguments that don't prove your point. I am not arguing against the existence of a sense of morality. That sense has always existed and I think we both agree to that.

 

[Barrd]

Well, evidently you are not listening to what I am saying, and that is very sad. I have told you why I don't believe that Christians are required to keep the Mosaic sabbath, which I have done in great detail providing scriptures to support what I say.

Are you calling me a liar? Why don't you address these scriptures rather than opting to missrepresent my views?

I'm sorry if I offended you. That was not my intention.
Truly, however, I don't understand how the Sabbath might be a burden.
It's a day of rest. And that can only be a blessing...
And if we can see it as a blessing in our time, when we are, as I mentioned earlier, surrounded by labor saving devices of every kind...can you even imagine what a blessing it should have been to the people in Christ's day?
If only they could have separated it from the curse of the law...which was death.


Oh, wait! Didn't Jesus do that?

 

[Barrd]

Most people, including atheists, do these things. So what's your point?

That is my point.
The whole world, whether it would or no, honors the law of God.
Why?
Because they are natural laws, intended for all people through all time.

And, if you'll look around you, the whole world also honors the Lord's Sabbath.

Why fight it?

 

[Barrd]

Again, all you are doing is confusing the 10 commandments with a sense of morality, which the majority of people share. The fact that someone behaves morally does not mean that they are under the 10 commandments.

Now I gave you scripture that proves that the Mosiac sabbath was not given to all people at all times. Why don't you be honest and acknowledge this, rather than resorting to arguments that don't prove your point. I am not arguing against the existence of a sense of morality. That sense has always existed and I think we both agree to that.

The point is that God is the Author of our morality. It is impossible t confuse morality and the law...the law is our morality. We keep these laws because they are just and good. They apply to everyone, not just to the Jews. Have you ever heard of Hammurabi? Surely you don't think God cribbed from him, do you? Of course not! God's laws are natural, and right, and good...society would break down without them.
Yes, we are grateful that Jesus died and took the punishment we are owed for not respecting these laws.
It's been over 2000 years, however.

Is our gratitude beginning to wear thin? Are we taking His sacrifice for granted?

These are hard questions...

 

[Barrd]

Maybe you think that I am advocating the Sabbath as the day of worship.
I assure you, that is not necessarily true.
Although I think we both know that Sunday worship began with Constantine. The first century church knew nothing of Sunday worship. When you worship on Sunday, you are obeying Catholic mandates, whether you would or no.

Not that it matters a fig what day you decide to meet for worship, as long as it is convenient for everyone.

And I do take issue with SDA, because they make such a huge deal out of their "keeping the Sabbath" when actually they don't. The minute they get into their car and start the engine, they have "broken the Sabbath". So, unless they are all walking to church, they are all hypocrites. They do many other things on Saturday that were forbidden in the Mosaic law...but I digress.

For me, the point is this...every day, for the Christian, ought to be a day of worship.
Every.
Single.
Day.

There is no such thing, for a Christian, as "a day of worship"...all seven days belong to God, and each one of them is a gift to us.
A gift that we too often take for granted.
One day, we will run out of these days...and we will regret each wasted opportunity.

I think it is time to stop straining at gnats, and swallowing camels....

 

[heretoeternity]

Good posts Barrd...seems the deniers of God's Seventh day Sabbath fourth commandment are very confused by all the false teachings they have endured from the Roman system of religion that, as you said, Constantine brought in..when God wrote the fourth Commandment "REMEMBER the Sabbath day to keep it Holy", God is reminding them back to Creation when He created the special seventh day of the week as a Holy day...He rested, blessed and sanctified this day as per Genesis 2...This was before there were any Israeli, Hebrew, Gentiles or whatever, just human beings..period..
Where the problem arises for the blind, who follow the Roman system is they are confused between the Law of God (ten commandments) and the law of Moses, the 613 sacrificial, ceremonial, festival, feast, food etc laws...yes the sacrifical system was a burden and did not atone for sins...Jesus came and ended this sacrificial system..the law of God was never changed, nor could it be, as God, Himself wrote the ten commandments, and "God changes not"...
The confused, quote some of Paul's writings such Col 2, and Hebrews which, if they read the complete Chapter is obviously referring to the Mosaic law...and there is nothing in there abolishing the Holy seventh day Sabbath..zero....of course not, it is God's law, and it does not change! As Paul says "Do we make void the law through faith? God forbid" and "do we sin more so grace abounds"? "God forbid", and the Apostle John in 1st John refers to sin as "transgression of the law", and John goes on to say "those who say they know Him and keep not His commandments are liars and the truth is not in them"..so makes those who follow the pagan Roman system out to be liars, and as Revelation 17, describes this anti christ system as a "harlot"...
and they should remember salvation is through the Son of God, God's grace and commandments, and not the sungod/satan and his doctrines and days of sunday, dec 25th and easter, all of which are non Biblical and of pagan orgin!

 

[Barrd]

Good posts Barrd...seems the deniers of God's Seventh day Sabbath fourth commandment are very confused by all the false teachings they have endured from the Roman system of religion that, as you said, Constantine brought in..when God wrote the fourth Commandment "REMEMBER the Sabbath day to keep it Holy", God is reminding them back to Creation when He created the special seventh day of the week as a Holy day...He rested, blessed and sanctified this day as per Genesis 2...This was before there were any Israeli, Hebrew, Gentiles or whatever, just human beings..period..
Where the problem arises for the blind, who follow the Roman system is they are confused between the Law of God (ten commandments) and the law of Moses, the 613 sacrificial, ceremonial, festival, feast, food etc laws...yes the sacrifical system was a burden and did not atone for sins...Jesus came and ended this sacrificial system..the law of God was never changed, nor could it be, as God, Himself wrote the ten commandments, and "God changes not"...
The confused, quote some of Paul's writings such Col 2, and Hebrews which, if they read the complete Chapter is obviously referring to the Mosaic law...and there is nothing in there abolishing the Holy seventh day Sabbath..zero....of course not, it is God's law, and it does not change! As Paul says "Do we make void the law through faith? God forbid" and "do we sin more so grace abounds"? "God forbid", and the Apostle John in 1st John refers to sin as "transgression of the law", and John goes on to say "those who say they know Him and keep not His commandments are liars and the truth is not in them"..so makes those who follow the pagan Roman system out to be liars, and as Revelation 17, describes this anti christ system as a "harlot"...
and they should remember salvation is through the Son of God, God's grace and commandments, and not the sungod/satan and his doctrines and days of sunday, dec 25th and easter, all of which are non Biblical and of pagan orgin!

Thank you, Heretoeternity.
Yes, I think that we need to leave the harlot AND her daughters behind us, and try to find our way back to the simplicity that is in Christ.
I honestly do not think we need a particular "day of worship", except as is convenient for each particular congregation. I read about one particular group of miners...for whatever reason, the only time they had when they could be all together was on Thursday afternoon...so, they decided to hold their worship service on Thursday afternoon.
My son and the other assistant manager at his store have Tuesdays off. Don't ask me why the store chose Tuesday, because I seriously do not have a clue...however, I'm trying to convince them that we ought to get together for worship in our homes on Tuesdays. I'm not making much progress though...both wives are set against it. Ahh, well...it was just a thought. I just make sure one or the other family is invited here for dinner, or I just "show up" at one of their homes...and we have a mini-service, whether they realize it or not.

One thing you and I do agree on...God's law cannot change. The entire world honors God's law, whether they would or no...including His Sabbath law. It is no coincidence that Saturday is THE day for things like The Big Game, The Family PicNic, The Trip to the Beach, The Big Date, The Big Party...etc, etc, etc...
God's law is natural, and right.

As for Christmas and Easter, I do not see any harm in either of these celebrations.
Oh, I know that Jesus was probably not born on December 25th...and I know that a great many of our Christmas traditions have their roots in paganism.
Still, most of the Christian world has chosen this time to thank God for the gift of His Son. For many centuries Christmas has been a holy time. Yes, I know it has become polluted with commercialism, and that is very sad...
But, to me, giving gifts to our children seems a very appropriate way to honor the Virgin and her Child...

Easter, also. We do try to keep our Easter celebration as close to the Jews Passover as possible, which is why the day for the celebration changes from year to year.
It is true, the rabbit and the eggs come to us from a pagan source. Again, though, I think much depends on our attitude toward these things.
Do we rush past the empty tomb in our hurry to get to the yummy treats (boiled eggs?)...or do we celebrate in grateful humility for the shed blood that covers out sin?

As I've tried to point out all through this thread...I am not SDA or any other stripe of "Sabbatarian".

I think each one needs to decide for him/herself just how they will honor God, and whether they choose to celebrate or not...

 

[heretoeternity]

Too many "christians" try to play god, and make days holy, such as Dec 25th, sunday, easter...only God can make days Holy...and these days are made "holy" by satan, and the whole world follows these pagan based days..as Jesus said "you follow the traditions of man and not the commandments of God" Matthew 15 and Mark 7, and Matthew 15 "you honour me with your lips, but your hearts are far from me", and "I will say to them in that day depart from me I never knew you, you who practice lawlessness"....
If we give thanks to God every day, as we should,, there is no need for the pagan day once a year celebrations. There is no commandment or word in the Bible about celebrating Jesus birth, or death, or resurrection..the only word Jesus said on the subject was to take communion the night before His crucifixion and said "do this in rembrance of me"....
although the "christian" world follows the trail of the easter bunny, and the goddess of fertility ishtar or whatever, it is not right...Jesus was crucified on the passover, which is sometimes a month different than the pgaqn ishtar "christian" celebrations...why not observe it on the proper day..the passover?
For those who do not want to follow God's law, one would think that if you are saved from a death penalty, you would want to follow the law after that? But "christians" are so blinded by satan they cannot see the big picture and what God has actually done for us...and why we should love Him and Honour Him by keeping His commandments...just like satan deceived Eve in the garden with the words "God will not mind", he is deceiving the vast majority of the christian community.

And yes, denominations, I feel, are the work of satan, a divide and conquer strategy that has worked very well for him....

and remember, Salvation is through the Son of God, Gods grace and commandments and notthe sungod satan and his days of sunday, dec 25th and easter, all of which are non Biblical and of pagan origin!

 

[Barrd]

Too many "christians" try to play god, and make days holy, such as Dec 25th, sunday, easter...only God can make days Holy...and these days are made "holy" by satan, and the whole world follows these pagan based days..as Jesus said "you follow the traditions of man and not the commandments of God" Matthew 15 and Mark 7, and Matthew 15 "you honour me with your lips, but your hearts are far from me", and "I will say to them in that day depart from me I never knew you, you who practice lawlessness"....
If we give thanks to God every day, as we should,, there is no need for the pagan day once a year celebrations. There is no commandment or word in the Bible about celebrating Jesus birth, or death, or resurrection..the only word Jesus said on the subject was to take communion the night before His crucifixion and said "do this in rembrance of me"....
although the "christian" world follows the trail of the easter bunny, and the goddess of fertility ishtar or whatever, it is not right...Jesus was crucified on the passover, which is sometimes a month different than the pgaqn ishtar "christian" celebrations...why not observe it on the proper day..the passover?
For those who do not want to follow God's law, one would think that if you are saved from a death penalty, you would want to follow the law after that? But "christians" are so blinded by satan they cannot see the big picture and what God has actually done for us...and why we should love Him and Honour Him by keeping His commandments...just like satan deceived Eve in the garden with the words "God will not mind", he is deceiving the vast majority of the christian community.

And yes, denominations, I feel, are the work of satan, a divide and conquer strategy that has worked very well for him....

and remember, Salvation is through the Son of God, Gods grace and commandments and notthe sungod satan and his days of sunday, dec 25th and easter, all of which are non Biblical and of pagan origin!

Do you celebrate your children's birthdays? Most folks who think as you do don't. I'm not exactly sure why. Children are a gift from God. And yes, we do celebrate birthdays at my house.
Whatever you do...or whatever you don't do...do it...or not...to the glory of God.
Do you keep Christmas? Then celebrate it in deep gratitude to God for the gift of HIs Son. Do not make it about the tinsel and the gifts, but about the Virgin and her Child. Whatever you do, do it to the glory of God.
When I was a kid, Christmas was preceded by a thorough cleaning of each kid's room...toys and books and such that had not been played with or read for awhile, got put in "the box", along with outgrown clothing. And each kid solemnly took his or her box and followed Grandma into the Salvation army, where each child put his or her own box on the counter, understanding that these things would be recycled so that other children could have Christmas presents, too. Okay, we were a little vague about how this worked...but we felt very proud of ourselves, as we walked out, empty handed, to be taken out on a trip to see Santa, or perhaps to a restaurant to eat some rare treat. Of course, we were all expected to have some money saved up for our own Christmas shopping...but if we had been less than frugal, we could usually depend on Grandma or Grandpa to help us make up the shortage...as long as we promised not to tell.
And of course, there were church services. It didn't matter what day of the week Christmas fell on, the little church we attended would have a special Christmas service. How we loved singing in the choir! And speaking of music...one of my favorite things about Christmas was hearing again the beautiful music of Handel's "Messiah".
And, of course, on Christmas Eve, we would all gather round the tree and listen again as Grandpa, or Dad, or one of the uncles, would read the Christmas story from the Bible. It brought God close to each of us.

And Easter. Yes, I remember being all dressed up for Easter in a new dress, new white shoes and matching purse...and of course, lovely Easter bonnets. There would be a church service (of course) and afterward, there would almost always be an Easter egg hunt. I never did like boiled eggs too much, so, when my kids were little, I'd substitute those plastic eggs that you open up, and I'd put some small toy or some candy in each one. I would make an "Easter tree" by blowing the inside out of several eggs and hand painting them, to hang on a branch one of the kids had collected and we had painted and set in plaster in a little planter.
I decided a new tradition needed to be instituted, so I had one of my boys read the story of the resurrection every year...and, you know, most of my kids carried this tradition over into their own families. Of course, their own husbands and wives brought their own family traditions with them, as well. Our holidays are always interesting, to say the least.
I have one daughter-in-law, for instance, who insists on gathering around the Christmas tree and singing carols. I always enjoy her Christmas celebrations... Another has a special way of fixing her Easter eggs...the child opens one each day during Easter week, and learns something new about Jesus' life and ministry, leading up to His trial and crucifixion, of course..and ending on Easter Morning with the glorious resurrection.

Now, some folks do think that celebrating these holidays is wrong, but Paul says not to let anyone judge you in respect of Sabbaths, or new moons....or holy days. Each one is to glorify God in whatever he or she decides...and me and my house have decided to rejoice in Him.,,,not just on these special occasions, but all through the year.

 

[heretoeternity]

If you are a true Christian then you follow the Bible, the word of God..it is never a good idea to try and playh God and make things holy which are not from God..many enlightened societies in the past of tried it and failed, as you should know...that is the reason the world is in the mess it is presently in...or do you think the cesspool of a world ie abortion/killing of preborn babies, legalizing sodomy/homosexuality, porno, drug overuse (legal nad illegal), killing, wars all over the planet..do you think it is okay? Humans have had rule over the earth, and have proven to be a failure, totally, mainly because they would sooner follow satan than God...so the human race is reaping what has sown....anything that detracts from the true word of God is idolatry....and goes againstthe commandments of God..plane and simple...sure birthdays each year are warm and fuzzy, but are they necessary? Do they enhance your walk with God? Celebrating the Sabbath each week gives us 24 hours of family closeness and get together to place God first and foremost, without those fancy, commercial little worldly traps which satan has laid for us..as Jesus said in Matthew 10 those who place father or mother (families) ahead of me are not worthy of me"...

BTW read again the verse your provided Col 2..and read the entire chapter...Paul is referring to the law of Moses, and the feast days and annual sabbaths...nothing to do with God's seventh day Sabbath the fourth commandment in God's law...it also refers to the problem the Colossians were having with their former pagan associates, who were ridiculing them for their new found christian beliefs...henceforth "let no man judge you"...take your pick..

And remember Salvation is through the Son of God, God's grace and commandments, and not the sungod/satan and his days of sunday, dec 25th and easter, all of which are non Biblical and of pagan origins!

 

[UppsalaDragby]

The point is that God is the Author of our morality. It is impossible t confuse morality and the law...the law is our morality.

No it is not impossble! This is EASY to prove. The Bible teaches us that there was a time when there was NO LAW, but that sin was in the world. During that time morality existed.

So how you came to that conclusion is anyone's guess. It seems that you are just making things up because you don't have any scriptural support for what you say.

We keep these laws because they are just and good.

You have just admitted that you don't keep them. You are contradicting yourself!

They apply to everyone, not just to the Jews.

That's what you say. The Bible disagrees with you, just as I pointed out. So why are you contradicting scripture?

Have you ever heard of Hammurabi? Surely you don't think God cribbed from him, do you? Of course not! God's laws are natural, and right, and good...society would break down without them.
Yes, we are grateful that Jesus died and took the punishment we are owed for not respecting these laws.
It's been over 2000 years, however.

Is our gratitude beginning to wear thin? Are we taking His sacrifice for granted?

These are hard questions...

What does that have to do with anything?

Legalism is based on human effort, and human effort is NOT showing grattitude towards God. If you want to show grattitude to him, then DO WHAT HE SAYS!

Now read Paul's comment to the Galatians when they started drifting back into legalism:

"After you started with the Spirit, are you now finishing up with your own human effort?" (Gal 3:3)

and then we have this:

"What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!
For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.
It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy." (Rom 9:14-16)

So please don't confuse legalism with grattitude.

 

[UppsalaDragby]

Maybe you think that I am advocating the Sabbath as the day of worship.
I assure you, that is not necessarily true.
Although I think we both know that Sunday worship began with Constantine. The first century church knew nothing of Sunday worship. When you worship on Sunday, you are obeying Catholic mandates, whether you would or no.

Not that it matters a fig what day you decide to meet for worship, as long as it is convenient for everyone.

And I do take issue with SDA, because they make such a huge deal out of their "keeping the Sabbath" when actually they don't. The minute they get into their car and start the engine, they have "broken the Sabbath". So, unless they are all walking to church, they are all hypocrites. They do many other things on Saturday that were forbidden in the Mosaic law...but I digress.

For me, the point is this...every day, for the Christian, ought to be a day of worship.
Every.
Single.
Day.

There is no such thing, for a Christian, as "a day of worship"...all seven days belong to God, and each one of them is a gift to us.
A gift that we too often take for granted.
One day, we will run out of these days...and we will regret each wasted opportunity.

I think it is time to stop straining at gnats, and swallowing camels....

Now you're making sense!

 

[Barrd]

Now you're making sense!

That made me smile!
I still believe that God's laws are for all people and for all time.
I still believe that God is the source of morality, and that His laws are basic common sense.
Although we are not "under the law" in the sense that if we trespass even a wee little bit, we are condemned to hell, yet we may not break God's laws with impunity.
Are the Ten Commandments still binding in our time?
You tell me.
What Christian would dare to suggest that it would be alright if I
1. Worshiped some other god? Perhaps I might want to add the Roman pantheon of gods to my worship of the Christian God? Or, being female, maybe I could also worship the Wiccan goddess?
2. Had an idol and worshiped it? Athena, the goddess of wisdom makes a pretty statue...she'd go very well with my living room decor. And who couldn't use a bit of wisdom?
3. Yeah, I used God's name to curse! That guy cut me off just as I was about to make my turn!
4. For some reason, Christians don't seem too worried about this one. Strange...
5. My Mom makes me so mad! She criticizes every thing I do! I just want to smack her face and get it over with! Would that be okay?
6. I know my uncle left all his money and property to me and I'm broke. I need to kill him, so I can collect. I'm not "under the law"...so it'd be okay, right? As long as I plan it well and don't get caught?
7. I'm bored with my husband. An exciting new man has moved into the neighborhood, and he's been giving me "the look". Would it be okay if I go and play a little? What hubby doesn't know won't hurt him, right?
8 Back to that rich uncle...murder is so messy, you know? Maybe I could just steal something valuable from him? Why not? I'm not "under the law" any more, right?
9. I hate that new girl at work! She thinks she's all that. She's younger than I am, and she's getting all the attention that I was used to! I think I'll start a few rumors about her...after all, I'm not "under the law"...and this is a matter of keeping my place!
10. All of these sins start in the heart...but if we're not "under the law" it's alright to think this way, isn't it?

Do you see where I'm going, here? Of course, none of these things are now okay...how silly! Nor should any Christian even think this way.
Don't you see that God's laws are natural, and right? The whole world keeps these laws, without even realizing that they are keeping God's law. To say that these necessary rules for life have been "abolished" or, fapeetsakes "nailed to the cross" is just the height of ridiculous, and Paul never meant any such nonsense.
Of course, it is not possible for us to keep these laws perfectly. Thoughts such as those I outlined above do slip into our unruly minds and we'd be liars if we tried to deny it.

I skipped the fourth command, partly because it is the one everyone seems to have a problem with...but think about it. It is the only one of the ten that is not a "thou shalt not" so much as it is a reward to us...a pleasant gift of a day of rest.
Yes, I know...under the Old Covenant, there were all sorts of burdensome rules and regulations attached to it.
But that was the Old Covenant. There's been some changes made. Jesus has said that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath...which means that I may cook, and have heat in my house if we need it, or I may go for a drive if that's what I want to do. I don't have to make this my one day of worship...it is my day to rest and rejuvenate. And it is my privilege to give this day to the rest of my family. For this one day, I will not nag my kids to do their chores. It doesn't matter that they didn't make their beds this morning. I have no "honey-do" list for hubby...he gets to spend the day watching sports, or going fishing, or just snoozing on the couch if that's what he wants to do.

And I have the very best "scriptural support" for my Sabbath that there is.
I have Jesus. He is the One Who said that the Sabbath was made for man. I am a member of the race of man...therefore the Sabbath belongs to me just as much as it ever belonged to the Jews. He declared Himself to be the Lord of the Sabbath. He is my Lord, and my King. The Sabbath belongs to Him, and through Him, it also belongs to me.

I don't know why everyone is so insistent on taking the joy out of my worship. Worship for me is not a chore. It is a blessing. I love my Jesus, and He loves me. I belong to Him, and I will follow Him as long as I live.
Let others do as they will...

 

[mjrhealth]

And I have the very best "scriptural support" for my Sabbath that there is.
I have Jesus. He is the One Who said that the Sabbath was made for man. I am a member of the race of man...therefore the Sabbath belongs to me just as much as it ever belonged to the Jews. He declared Himself to be the Lord of the Sabbath. He is my Lord, and my King. The Sabbath belongs to Him, and through Him, it also belongs to me.

Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

The sabbath is only a burden to those who keep it by the law. You keep one day to God some keep everyday to God, God will not give us brownie points for either decision

Our greatest worship to God is to have faith and believe in Him, for in that we show we love Him.

In all His Love.

 

[Barrd]

Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

The sabbath is only a burden to those who keep it by the law. You keep one day to God some keep everyday to God, God will not give us brownie points for either decision

Our greatest worship to God is to have faith and believe in Him, for in that we show we love Him.

In all His Love.

I have said all through this thread...every day for the Christian is, or ought to be, a day of worship.
If one is truly following the Lord, Jesus Christ, that person's entire life will be an act of worship.

To those who keep the Old Covenant Sabbath under the old Mosaic law, yes, it is a burden.
But Jesus took all that out of the way, didn't He?
He could have told those scribes and Pharisees who challenged Him that the Sabbath was made for Jews, not Jews for the Sabbath...they were Jews, He was a Jew...what would have been more natural? But there were Gentiles in the crowd. Indeed, one of His own apostles was a Greek. So He made it clear that the Sabbath was made for man. And He further made it clear that heating and eating corn...or doing any other good thing...was lawful on the Sabbath. Yes, we may now gather sticks on the Sabbath if we feel there is a need for sticks. We may have a family bar-b-que, or go for a drive, or, if it is a cold winter day, we may curl up by a fire with a good book...

Every day...every single day of the week, every week, every month, all year long...all belong to God.
But that one day...that one special day each week...has been set aside, and sanctified as a day of rest. A time to rejuvenate. Time to spend with family, or just off by yourself.
It is a gift, though there are those who try to turn it into a burden.

 

[Phoneman777]

Well, evidently you are not listening to what I am saying, and that is very sad. I have told you why I don't believe that Christians are required to keep the Mosaic sabbath, which I have done in great detail providing scriptures to support what I say.

If you really believe that we are under the 10 commandments, then don't give false testimony against your brother.

Now why don't you address these scriptures rather than opting to missrepresent my views?


Most people, including atheists, do these things. So what's your point?


Again, all you are doing is confusing the 10 commandments with a sense of morality, which the majority of people share. The fact that someone behaves morally does not mean that they are under the 10 commandments.

Now I gave you scripture that proves that the Mosiac sabbath was not given to all people at all times. Why don't you be honest and acknowledge this, rather than resorting to arguments that don't prove your point. I am not arguing against the existence of a sense of morality. That sense has always existed and I think we both agree to that.

Upp, your problem is that you fail to understand the difference between the just man who falls seven times and rises up again (Proverbs 24:16 KJV) and the unjust man to whom Jesus will say, "Depart from Me, ye that work iniquity" (Matthew 7:23 KJV).

The just man "falls" into the pit of sin, and with a tearful, sorrowed heart, he clasps the hand of Jesus and is put back on the path of righteousness with renewed determination to do as His Savior bids him from there on out. Do you finally get it? He "falls" into it. When a child learning to walk falls down, does the father scold the child or slap the child? No, he lifts him up, wipes away the tears, encourages him saying, "you can do this! you can do this!" and taking by the hand, he bids him to keep trying until he finally learns to walk. Grace is ever proffered for the man who strives to learn to "walk even as He walked." (1 John 2:6 KJV)

Conversely, the professed Christian who almost breaks his neck hurrying over to the pit, leaps down into it, sits down among the filth and makes himself at home with no intent to leave is "unjust and filthy" (Revelation 22:11 KJV) and will soon hear Jesus say, "Depart from Me, ye that work iniquity." This is exactly the fate which awaits those who deliberately "break any one of the least of these commandments and teaches men to do so." (Matthew 5:19 KJV) Stop teaching people that we are not obligated to keep the Ten Commandments.