Sabbath-Keeping

[ATP]

1st John..those who say they know him and keep not His commandments are liars and the truth is not in them, and sin is transgression of the law...

I definitely agree, as long as we understand the word "commandments" in the NT is not referring to "law under works", rather the "law under grace".

You know, I seriously doubt it.
I'm pretty sure they kept those commandments all of their lives, and taught other people to do the same...just as Jesus had told them to do.
Now, I don't know about you...but the Lord I am following very clearly said "If you love Me, keep my Commandments." I don't do this in order to be justified, or because I'm trying to work my way into heaven...I know that He has gone to prepare a place that where He is I may be also. I do this because I love Him. Simple as that.

I definitely agree, as long as we understand the word "commandments" in the NT is not referring to "law under works", rather the "law under grace".

 

[Barrd]

I definitely agree, as long as we understand the word "commandments" in the NT is not referring to "law under works", rather the "law under grace".


I definitely agree, as long as we understand the word "commandments" in the NT is not referring to "law under works", rather the "law under grace".

But that's what I've been saying all along.

There are obviously some very important differences between the Old Covenant, and the New Covenant. Jeremiah outlines these differences in his prophecy, and the writer of Hebrews looks backward on that same prophecy...

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

It's the same law that it always was...that hasn't changed.
What has changed is, as you say, GRACE!

Does grace mean we may break the law with impunity? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! To deliberately sin, with the notion that it doesn't matter, Jesus has your back....well, that would be spitting on Him, wouldn't it? It would be hypocrisy, at the very least....at worst it would be trampling His blood under your feet.

Remember this, my friend. The wages of sin is still death. Eternal life is not inherent in your being...it is a gift. God does not give you a gift of something you already have...unlike your Grandma, He knows what you have and what you need.

 

[ATP]

But that's what I've been saying all along.

There are obviously some very important differences between the Old Covenant, and the New Covenant. Jeremiah outlines these differences in his prophecy, and the writer of Hebrews looks backward on that same prophecy...

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

It's the same law that it always was...that hasn't changed.
What has changed is, as you say, GRACE!

Does grace mean we may break the law with impunity? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! To deliberately sin, with the notion that it doesn't matter, Jesus has your back....well, that would be spitting on Him, wouldn't it? It would be hypocrisy, at the very least....at worst it would be trampling His blood under your feet.

Remember this, my friend. The wages of sin is still death. Eternal life is not inherent in your being...it is a gift. God does not give you a gift of something you already have...unlike your Grandma, He knows what you have and what you need.

Agreed. With that said, OSAS is truth.

 

[Barrd]

Agreed. With that said, OSAS is truth.

Hahaha!!!!
Still looking for an argument, I see.

I suppose if I had to give an opinion on OSAS, I would say that it depends on what you mean by "saved". You can still sin...and you can still be forgiven, IF you repent and turn from that sin. (That's a big IF!)
If you will not, can you lose your salvation? I'd have to say, yes, you can.
Of course, if a person sins and will not repent or turn from that sin, then were they saved in the first place? There is room there for some doubt. Surely, if you have dedicated your life to Christ, then, like Paul, you will strive to keep the law...although you will find another law in your members. And it will grieve you.
You will be convicted by the Holy Spirit dwelling within you.
And you will be driven to your knees. You will repent, and you will strive to put that sin away from you.

Remember Peter's warning?

2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Your NIV says that, if you are led away with the error of lawless men, you can fall from your secure position...which would mean, you can lose your salvation.

Paul said:

1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Now, if the Apostle thought it was possible that he might be a castaway, perhaps we, too, ought to keep ourselves under subjection, for the same reason.
If we think we stand, as in "once saved always saved"...perhaps we ought to pay attention to Paul, who warns us to take heed, lest we fall...

One thing I am sure of...Christ will not desert those who believe in Him...He will raise them up at the last day as He promised.

 

[ATP]

Remember Peter's warning?

2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Your NIV says that, if you are led away with the error of lawless men, you can fall from your secure position...which would mean, you can lose your salvation.

Paul said:

1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Now, if the Apostle thought it was possible that he might be a castaway, perhaps we, too, ought to keep ourselves under subjection, for the same reason.
If we think we stand, as in "once saved always saved"...perhaps we ought to pay attention to Paul, who warns us to take heed, lest we fall...

One thing I am sure of...Christ will not desert those who believe in Him...He will raise them up at the last day as He promised.

Remember what we talked about with 2 Pet 3:14-17? It's not referring to salvation, it's about how strong or weak your faith is.

In 1 Cor 9:27, Paul is referring to being a castaway by men, not God. Notice it says, "after I have preached to others"..this passage also follows the passages about the five crowns in heaven. We lose crowns with disobedience, not salvation. Notice the words "race, runners, prize, crown"..1 Cor 9:24-27 NIV Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

1 Cor 10:12 NIV - This has nothing to do with salvation, it has to do with temptation. Also read 1 Cor 10:13 NIV.

 

[Barrd]

Remember what we talked about with 2 Pet 3:14-17? It's not referring to salvation, it's about how strong or weak your faith is.

I you'll recall, I did not agree wiith you then...and I still do not agree with you.



In 1 Cor 9:27, Paul is referring to being a castaway by men, not God. Notice it says, "after I have preached to others"..this passage also follows the passages about the five crowns in heaven. We lose crowns with disobedience, not salvation. Notice the words "race, runners, prize, crown"..1 Cor 9:24-27 NIV Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

From the Strong's concordance included with E-Sword:

G96

ἀδόκιμος

adokimos

ad-ok'-ee-mos

From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1384; unapproved, that is, rejected; by implication worthless (literally or morally): - castaway, rejected, reprobate.

Total KJV occurrences: 8

Also, see this website:
http://biblehub.com/greek/96.htm

1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

This one seems pretty straight-forward to me.

1 Cor 10:12 NIV - This has nothing to do with salvation, it has to do with temptation. Also read 1 Cor 10:13 NIV.

From my own beloved KJV:
1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

And from your NIV:
12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall! 13 No temptation[c] has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted[d] beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted,[e] he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

They both seem to say the same thing. So, let's look at it from your NIV...
It says "God is faithful"...I can't argue with that!
It says "He will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear"...I can testify from my own life that He definitely pushes the envelope on that one! Whew...I've been tempted right to the point of breaking more than once, I admit!
It says:
"But when you are tempted,[e] he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it."
AND THERE IT IS!!!!!
Yes...He will provide a way out so that you can endure it!
Of course, it is up to you whether or not you will take advantage of His escape route.
Sadly, I can also testify from my own life that, should you not take advantage of His way out, He will kick every prop you ever thought you had out from under you.
You will be pricked in your heart...and you will repent.
Yes, ATP, without going into a lot of detail, after my husband died, I did have an affair...it didn't last very long, and it wasn't worth the price...but I was, for a little while, a very "bad girl"...




Sorry...I still don't seem to have gotten this quote thingie quite straight...

 

[ATP]

Sorry...I still don't seem to have gotten this quote thingie quite straight...

When you read the NT Gospel as works salvation you are swimming upstream against the current. Let's focus on the word "seal" first. Why do you think this seal of God can be broken for example. There are three things to focus on in Eph 4:30 NIV. Scripture tells us...

(1.) Do not grieve the Holy Spirit
(2.) with whom you were sealed
(3.) for the day of redemption

(1.) Do not grieve. Take a look at Eph 4:30 NLT version and Eph 4:30 GWT version. Now the way I see it, NON-OSAS gives us a spirit of fear, fear that if we don't repent daily or obey Christ every minute of the day we are in danger of losing salvation and being thrown into the lake of fire. God clearly states that we no longer have the spirit of fear Rom 8:15 ESV, 2 Tim 1:7 ESV, Heb 2:14-15 ESV, 1 John 4:18 ESV.

Eph 4:30 NLT And do not bring sorrow to God's Holy Spirit by the way you live. Remember, he has identified you as his own, guaranteeing that you will be saved on the day of redemption.

Eph 4:30 GWT Don't give God's Holy Spirit any reason to be upset with you. He has put his seal on you for the day you will be set free [from the world of sin].

(2.) The word sealed here means sphragizó. Now, we aren't talking about a seal given to us from Humpty Dumpty. This is a seal that comes straight from God the Father, the creator of the universe. Who is the owner of the seal? God the Father!

4972 sphragízō (from 4973 /sphragís, "a seal") – properly, to seal (affix) with a signet ring or other instrument to stamp (a roller or seal), i.e. to attest ownership, authorizing (validating) what is sealed.

4972 /sphragízō ("to seal") signifies ownership and the full security carried by the backing (full authority) of the owner. "Sealing" in the ancient world served as a "legal signature" which guaranteed the promise (contents) of what was sealed.

(3.) The day of redemption here means apolutrósis, a release effected by payment of ransom. When we die and meet the Lord at the first resurrection, the Lord will grant us release and deliverance from our sin nature inside a sinful world. We are sealed from God the Father until that time comes.

- ATP

 

[Phoneman777]

Obedience to the law is not evidence you have Jesus in your heart, it just means that person is a religious zealot trying to buy his way into heaven. Belief in who Jesus Christ is, is the evidence. The Gospel I read says all I have to do is believe and I have eternal life. Either you believe or you don't, bro. Are you putting your trust in Jesus or your own works to keep you saved?

Bro, that conclusion is not Biblical at all. We see this plainly from John's first epistle:

"Hereby we do know that we know Him IF we keep His commandments. He that saith "I know Him" and keepeth not His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him." 1 John 2:3-4 KJV

Surely, John is not talking about buying entrance into heaven.

 

[Phoneman777]

When you read the NT Gospel as works salvation you are swimming upstream against the current. Let's focus on the word "seal" first. Why do you think this seal of God can be broken for example. There are three things to focus on in Eph 4:30 NIV. Scripture tells us...

(1.) Do not grieve the Holy Spirit
(2.) with whom you were sealed
(3.) for the day of redemption

(1.) Do not grieve. Take a look at Eph 4:30 NLT version and Eph 4:30 GWT version. Now the way I see it, NON-OSAS gives us a spirit of fear, fear that if we don't repent daily or obey Christ every minute of the day we are in danger of losing salvation and being thrown into the lake of fire. God clearly states that we no longer have the spirit of fear Rom 8:15 ESV, 2 Tim 1:7 ESV, Heb 2:14-15 ESV, 1 John 4:18 ESV.

Eph 4:30 NLT And do not bring sorrow to God's Holy Spirit by the way you live. Remember, he has identified you as his own, guaranteeing that you will be saved on the day of redemption.

Eph 4:30 GWT Don't give God's Holy Spirit any reason to be upset with you. He has put his seal on you for the day you will be set free [from the world of sin].

(2.) The word sealed here means sphragizó. Now, we aren't talking about a seal given to us from Humpty Dumpty. This is a seal that comes straight from God the Father, the creator of the universe. Who is the owner of the seal? God the Father!

4972 sphragízō (from 4973 /sphragís, "a seal") – properly, to seal (affix) with a signet ring or other instrument to stamp (a roller or seal), i.e. to attest ownership, authorizing (validating) what is sealed.

4972 /sphragízō ("to seal") signifies ownership and the full security carried by the backing (full authority) of the owner. "Sealing" in the ancient world served as a "legal signature" which guaranteed the promise (contents) of what was sealed.

(3.) The day of redemption here means apolutrósis, a release effected by payment of ransom. When we die and meet the Lord at the first resurrection, the Lord will grant us release and deliverance from our sin nature inside a sinful world. We are sealed from God the Father until that time comes.

- ATP

Bro, OSAS attempts to establish that a Christian can be simultaneously surrendered to Jesus and in rebellion to Him by sin. Impossible.

Why is the prospect of a moment by moment surrender to Jesus so "fearful" to you? Would you settle for a woman who shares her affections with another man, even for just a few moments a day? Then, why expect Christ to settle for a relationship with you where you steal away for a few moments each day with Satan to indulge his satanic temptations?

"If you're not willing to obey God, then you're not worth saving." Pastor Dr. C.D. Brooks

 

[ATP]

Bro, that conclusion is not Biblical at all. We see this plainly from John's first epistle:

"Hereby we do know that we know Him IF we keep His commandments. He that saith "I know Him" and keepeth not His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him." 1 John 2:3-4 KJV

Surely, John is not talking about buying entrance into heaven.

You're confusing Mosaic covenant with Grace covenant. The NT is not referring to the commandments of men or the law. It is about the injunctions of faith, love, and obedience. John and the other apostles never use "the law" to express the rule of Christian obedience: he uses it as the Mosaic law. The NT works off of Grace Salvation, not works. In the NT Jesus already died and had been resurrected, thus pouring out His Grace and Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

Bro, OSAS attempts to establish that a Christian can be simultaneously surrendered to Jesus and in rebellion to Him by sin. Impossible.

Why is the prospect of a moment by moment surrender to Jesus so "fearful" to you? Would you settle for a woman who shares her affections with another man, even for just a few moments a day? Then, why expect Christ to settle for a relationship with you where you steal away for a few moments each day with Satan to indulge his satanic temptations?

"If you're not willing to obey God, then you're not worth saving." C.D. Brooks

Scripture says it's not impossible because of our belief in Jesus Christ. The Gospel I read says once you believe you have eternal life. 1 John 5:13-14 NIV says we can be confident of this in approaching God.

John 3:14-15 NIV Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

John 3:16 NIV For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 5:24 NIV “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:40 NIV For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

John 6:47 NIV I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.

Acts 13:46-48 NIV Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. 47 For this is what the Lord has commanded us: " 'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.' " 48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

1 John 5:13-14 NIV I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God:

- ATP

 

[Barrd]

When you read the NT Gospel as works salvation you are swimming upstream against the current. Let's focus on the word "seal" first. Why do you think this seal of God can be broken for example. There are three things to focus on in Eph 4:30 NIV. Scripture tells us...

(1.) Do not grieve the Holy Spirit
(2.) with whom you were sealed
(3.) for the day of redemption

(1.) Do not grieve. Take a look at Eph 4:30 NLT version and Eph 4:30 GWT version. Now the way I see it, NON-OSAS gives us a spirit of fear, fear that if we don't repent daily or obey Christ every minute of the day we are in danger of losing salvation and being thrown into the lake of fire. God clearly states that we no longer have the spirit of fear Rom 8:15 ESV, 2 Tim 1:7 ESV, Heb 2:14-15 ESV, 1 John 4:18 ESV.

Eph 4:30 NLT And do not bring sorrow to God's Holy Spirit by the way you live. Remember, he has identified you as his own, guaranteeing that you will be saved on the day of redemption.

Eph 4:30 GWT Don't give God's Holy Spirit any reason to be upset with you. He has put his seal on you for the day you will be set free [from the world of sin].

(2.) The word sealed here means sphragizó. Now, we aren't talking about a seal given to us from Humpty Dumpty. This is a seal that comes straight from God the Father, the creator of the universe. Who is the owner of the seal? God the Father!

4972 sphragízō (from 4973 /sphragís, "a seal") – properly, to seal (affix) with a signet ring or other instrument to stamp (a roller or seal), i.e. to attest ownership, authorizing (validating) what is sealed.

4972 /sphragízō ("to seal") signifies ownership and the full security carried by the backing (full authority) of the owner. "Sealing" in the ancient world served as a "legal signature" which guaranteed the promise (contents) of what was sealed.

(3.) The day of redemption here means apolutrósis, a release effected by payment of ransom. When we die and meet the Lord at the first resurrection, the Lord will grant us release and deliverance from our sin nature inside a sinful world. We are sealed from God the Father until that time comes.

- ATP

I think you've missed the point.

What I actually said:

I suppose if I had to give an opinion on OSAS, I would say that it depends on what you mean by "saved". You can still sin...and you can still be forgiven, IF you repent and turn from that sin. (That's a big IF!)
If you will not, can you lose your salvation? I'd have to say, yes, you can.
Of course, if a person sins and will not repent or turn from that sin, then were they saved in the first place? There is room there for some doubt. Surely, if you have dedicated your life to Christ, then, like Paul, you will strive to keep the law...although you will find another law in your members. And it will grieve you.
You will be convicted by the Holy Spirit dwelling within you.
And you will be driven to your knees. You will repent, and you will strive to put that sin away from you.

Let's look again at that term "sealed":

2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts

"earnest" from Strong's:
G728 (Strong)

ἀῤῥαβών

arrhabōn

ar-hrab-ohn'

Of Hebrew origin [H6162]; a pledge, that is, part of the purchase money or property given in advance as security for the rest: - earnest.

Total KJV occurrences: 3

If you've ever bought a house, you might have come across this term before. You want the house. Coming up with the down payment might be a little tricky...but you really want that house.
The realtor wants to sell the house...how do you keep her from showing to someone else before you manage to come up with the cash?
That's where the earnest money comes in. It's like a partial down payment that you give to the realtor to keep your house off the market...highly simplified, but that's the general idea.

Now, what happens if you just can't come up with the rest of the money....or, in other words, if you can't keep your end of the deal?
Is the realtor obligated to keep the house off the market? No, she isn't. You didn't fulfill the contract.

Now, this seal that you're talking about is sort of the same idea. You received the holy spirit as a sort of guarantee...as long as you keep your part of the contract, God will keep His part. On the other hand, if you sin presumptuously...if you deliberately break God's law, or if you give in to temptation and sin and do not repent...well, then, yes, you can lose your salvation.

The other side of that question, if you will recall, was:

Of course, if a person sins and will not repent or turn from that sin, then were they saved in the first place?

 

[ATP]

Of course, if a person sins and will not repent or turn from that sin, then were they saved in the first place?

Of course they were saved. Born again believers sin every single day, with their thoughts and actions. We live in a fallen world that has a sin nature. It is impossible to live a perfect life. Until you recognize that you will not understand that belief only grants you eternal life. We are believing in what Jesus Christ did for us on the cross. He paid the sin penalty for our lives so we wouldn't have too. I want you to focus on these verses because it gives us a time line. Notice Eph 1:13-14 NIV, Eph 4:30 NIV and 1 Peter 1:3-5 NIV tells us how long we are sealed in Christ. How much more proof do you need though. The "day of redemption" and "the last time" is speaking about the first resurrection and rapture....

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 NIV And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

1 Peter 1:3-5 NIV Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[Barrd]

Of course they were saved. Born again believers sin every single day, with their thoughts and actions. We live in a fallen world that has a sin nature. It is impossible to live a perfect life. Until you recognize that you will not understand that belief only grants you eternal life. We are believing in what Jesus Christ did for us on the cross. He paid the sin penalty for our lives so we wouldn't have too. I want you to focus on these verses because it gives us a time line. Notice Eph 1:13-14 NIV, Eph 4:30 NIV and 1 Peter 1:3-5 NIV tells us how long we are sealed in Christ. How much more proof do you need though. The "day of redemption" and "the last time" is speaking about the first resurrection and rapture....

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 NIV And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

1 Peter 1:3-5 NIV Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

The question wasn't "If they sin, were they saved." The question was "if they sin and will not repent or turn from their sin."

So, then, it is your contention that the saved believer in Jesus Christ may deliberately sin, and still inherit the Kingdom of Heaven?
Or that he may "mess up" and fall into temptation, and not bother to repent, or to turn away from his sin? You think that, because he is "sealed" that he need not concern himself with following Jesus, or obeying His commandments?
It doesn't matter how one behaves, as long as they believe in the finished work of Christ on Calvary...is that what you are telling me?

If that is your "gospel," I have only one thing to say to you, sir.
"Get thee behind me, Satan."

Please tell me that I am misunderstanding what you are saying, here. Please tell me, at least, that you realize that coming to Jesus Christ will result in a changed life....you must realize that those who indulge themselves in sin will not inherit eternal life....

 

[ATP]

So, then, it is your contention that the saved believer in Jesus Christ may deliberately sin, and still inherit the Kingdom of Heaven?

100% yes.

 

[Joyful]

100% yes.

Thank you for your honestly.

I know this is the most protestants' churches position.

It is misrepresentation of Jesus.

 

[Barrd]

100% yes.

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Are you paying attention, ATP?
They which to such things WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

 

[ATP]

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Are you paying attention, ATP?
They which to such things WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

Well, most who quote 1 Cor 6:9-10 always leave out verse 11. 1 Cor 6:9-11 NIV Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Notice the words..

1. sexually immoral, immorality 1 Cor 6:9 NIV, 1 Tim 1:8-11 NIV, Jude 1:4 NIV, Jude 1:7 NIV, Rev 21:8 NIV, Rev 22:15 NIV
2. the name of Jesus Christ 1 Cor 6:11, 1 John 2:22 NIV, Jude 1:4 NIV
3. denies, denying, deny, 1 John 2:22 NIV, Jude 1:4 NIV
4. antichrist 1 John 2:22 NIV
5. condemnation Jude 1:4 NIV
6. did not believe, unbelieving Jude 1:5 NIV, Rev 21:8 NIV
7. punishment of eternal fire, the lake of fire, fiery lake of burning sulfur Jude 1:7 NIV, Rev 21:8 NIV

I want us to focus on these specific words. All these words describe nonbelievers that are not born again by any means. Are we connecting the dots here in 1-7...

1 Cor 6:9-11 NIV Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

1 Tim 1:8-11 NIV We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

1 John 2:22 NIV Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist--denying the Father and the Son.

Jude 1:4-5 NIV For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. 5Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

Jude 1:7 NIV In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Rev 21:8 NIV But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Rev 22:14-15 NIV “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

 

[ATP]

It is misrepresentation of Jesus.

Actually, that's not true. Jesus actually gives us a timeline of how long we are sealed in Christ. Notice Eph 1:13-14 NIV, Eph 4:30 NIV and 1 Peter 1:3-5 NIV tells us how long we are sealed in Christ. The "day of redemption" and "the last time" is speaking about the first resurrection and rapture....

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 NIV And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

1 Peter 1:3-5 NIV Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[Barrd]

Well, most who quote 1 Cor 6:9-10 always leave out verse 11. 1 Cor 6:9-11 NIV Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Notice the words..

1. sexually immoral, immorality 1 Cor 6:9 NIV, 1 Tim 1:8-11 NIV, Jude 1:4 NIV, Jude 1:7 NIV, Rev 21:8 NIV, Rev 22:15 NIV
2. the name of Jesus Christ 1 Cor 6:11, 1 John 2:22 NIV, Jude 1:4 NIV
3. denies, denying, deny, 1 John 2:22 NIV, Jude 1:4 NIV
4. antichrist 1 John 2:22 NIV
5. condemnation Jude 1:4 NIV
6. did not believe, unbelieving Jude 1:5 NIV, Rev 21:8 NIV
7. punishment of eternal fire, the lake of fire, fiery lake of burning sulfur Jude 1:7 NIV, Rev 21:8 NIV

I want us to focus on these specific words. All these words describe nonbelievers that are not born again by any means. Are we connecting the dots here in 1-7...

1 Cor 6:9-11 NIV Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

1 Tim 1:8-11 NIV We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

1 John 2:22 NIV Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist--denying the Father and the Son.

Jude 1:4-5 NIV For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. 5Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

Jude 1:7 NIV In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Rev 21:8 NIV But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Rev 22:14-15 NIV “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

You posted it.
But somehow, you seem to have missed it.

Jude 1:4-5 NIV For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. 5Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

"For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you."
In other words, Christians have, among our ranks, those whose condemnation was written about long ago. They have slipped in, secretly.
Who are they?
"They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord."
Do you understand that, ATP?
They are people who teach that we may sin as much as we like, because we are "under grace". They are those "who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ".
People like you, ATP?

We have at least one person in these threads who is a homosexual, staunchly defending his right to sin with impunity. Maybe you didn't know that, but when you go on about how a Christian may sin without repenting, you are contributing to his damnation.
And that makes you just as guilty as he is.

 

[ATP]

"For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you."
In other words, Christians have, among our ranks, those whose condemnation was written about long ago. They have slipped in, secretly.
Who are they?
"They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord."
Do you understand that, ATP?

I do understand. I understand nonbelievers are the one's denying the deity of Christ. A born again believer will never do that, for God's spirit dwells in them until the day of redemption 1 John 2:27 NIV, 2 John 1:2 NIV and Jude 1:1 NIV.

John 14:17 NIV the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

John 14:20 NIV On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

John 17:26 NIV I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."

Rom 8:11 NIV And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

1 Cor 1:30 NIV It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

1 Cor 3:16 NIV Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you?

1 John 2:13-14 NIV I am writing to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. 14I write to you, dear children, because you know the Father. I write to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God lives in you, and you have overcome the evil one.

1 John 2:27 NIV As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

1 John 3:6 NIV No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

1 John 4:15 NIV If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God.

2 John 1:2 NIV because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

Jude 1:1 NIV Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James, To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ: