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Barrd

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Jul 27, 2015
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Phoneman777 said:
Next to Christ, John was best at demonstrating the inseparable link between love for God and the obedience to Him which that love compels. Would God that these carnally minded professors of Christianity would let sink in this self-evident truth.
The thing is, they are not really lying to those who love the Lord and strive to obey His commandments. These cannot be moved.

They are really only lying to themselves.
That is what is so heart-breakingly sad about it.

They've come close enough to Jesus to feel the warmth of His love...but they will not take that final step. Following Jesus is not always easy...but it is always worth it!
 

Barrd

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...following a Jewish carpenter...
To me, the most frightening passage in the Bible has nothing at all to do with death or hell...those things are frightening, to be sure, but there is something even more terrifying still.

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness



God...God Himself...will send a "strong delusion" to those who would not recieve the love of the truth!
God...God Himself...will send a "strong delusion"...why would He do that?
That they all might be damned!!!
They will not believe the truth, but they take pleasure in unrighteousness!

Now, this chills me to the very marrow of my bones!

Perhaps this is why there is no reasoning with them? God forbid! We must...we simply MUST...keep telling them the truth!
Oh, pray, my friend...pray for those who have not recieved the love of the truth! Pray that they will let go of whatever sin they have in their life, that they find so hard to give up!
 

ATP

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Rom 8:33, 35, 38, 39 says neither..

trouble
hardship
persecution
famine
nakedness
danger or sword
death nor life
nor angels
nor rulers
nor things present nor things to come
nor powers
nor height nor depth
nor anything else in all creation

will be able to separate the elect from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Where does this love come from?

Rom 5:5 NIV And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.
 

Barrd

His Humble Servant
Jul 27, 2015
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...following a Jewish carpenter...
ATP said:
Rom 8:33, 35, 38, 39 says neither..

trouble
hardship
persecution
famine
nakedness
danger or sword
death nor life
nor angels
nor rulers
nor things present nor things to come
nor powers
nor height nor depth
nor anything else in all creation

will be able to separate the elect from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Where does this love come from?

Rom 5:5 NIV And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.
And that is why this petty foolishness over God's law will not deter me from following my Savior...
 

Phoneman777

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ATP said:
Rom 8:33, 35, 38, 39 says neither..

trouble
hardship
persecution
famine
nakedness
danger or sword
death nor life
nor angels
nor rulers
nor things present nor things to come
nor powers
nor height nor depth
nor anything else in all creation

will be able to separate the elect from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
God's love for those cast in the Lake of Fire will be no less then than before when He died for them on Calvary, but they will be cast in nonetheless. Please don't confuse the reality of "unconditional love" with the mythology of "unconditional salvation" to which your text does not refer in the least.

ATP said:
...because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.
God gives the Holy Spirit "to them that obey Him" (Acts 5:32 KJV) and departs from them who return to their former life of sin (Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV).
 

Barrd

His Humble Servant
Jul 27, 2015
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...following a Jewish carpenter...
ATP said:
Rom 8:33, 35, 38, 39 says neither..

trouble
hardship
persecution
famine
nakedness
danger or sword
death nor life
nor angels
nor rulers
nor things present nor things to come
nor powers
nor height nor depth
nor anything else in all creation

will be able to separate the elect from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Where does this love come from?

Rom 5:5 NIV And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.
I think the operative term here is "the elect".
Who are "the elect"?
Very simply, they are those who have chosen to follow Jesus Christ...that same Jesus Who says "if you love Me, keep My commandments."
To whom was the Holy Spirit given? Well, to whom did Jesus promise to send His Comforter? Was it not to His disciples?
Who were those people in the upper room on the day of Pentecost? Were they not His disciples?

It is my contention that "the elect" are those who keep the law.
 

Joyful

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Rom 5:5 NIV And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.
The Holy Spirit will not be given who don't appreciate Jesus' law or commands.
 

ATP

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Phoneman777 said:
God's love for those cast in the Lake of Fire will be no less then than before when He died for them on Calvary, but they will be cast in nonetheless. Please don't confuse the reality of "unconditional love" with the mythology of "unconditional salvation" to which your text does not refer in the least.
The Barrd said:
It is my contention that "the elect" are those who keep the law.
But how can that be, the law isn't what keeps you in Christ, it is grace. It says neither present nor future can separate the elect from the love of God, the love of God that is in Christ Jesus. The Holy Spirit that dwells in you. Unconditional love IS unconditional salvation. It's the same thing. Nonbelievers are actually considered God's enemies that live apart from his love.

So Rom 8:33-39 is not talking about the whole world here or even those who keep the law, rather it speaks of a specific group of people and that is born again believers washed in the blood of Christ. Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins out of LOVE. This is the good news of the Gospel. Rom 8:39 ESV "neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is IN Christ Jesus our Lord."

The word "elect" is eklektos in Greek which means chosen or selected. Typically, 1588 /eklektós ("select, chosen") describes people who choose to follow the Lord, i.e. become God's choice by freely receiving faith (4102 /pístis) from Him. Accordingly, these two terms are directly connected (see Tit 1:1; Lk 18:7,8). What faith are you referring to ATP, and how do we receive it?

Well, if you turn your page to Rom 10:9-10 NIV and Eph 2:8-9 NIV it will tell you. Faith comes through believing John 3:36 NIV, John 5:24 NIV, John 6:47 NIV, Romans 10:9-10 NIV, Rom 10:13 NIV. The "elect" are born again believers who have accepted the free gift of salvation by grace through faith......

Matt 24:22 NIV "If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

Matt 24:31 NIV And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Luke 18:7 ESV And will not God give justice to his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them?

John 6:39 NIV And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

John 13:18 NIV "I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill the scripture: 'He who shares my bread has lifted up his heel against me.'

John 17:9-10 NIV I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them.

Rom 8:31-33 ESV What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect?

Rom 9:11 NIV Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand:

Rom 11:5-7 NIV So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. 7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,

Rom 11:28-29 NIV As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

1 Thess 1:4-5 KJV Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. 5For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

If it wasn't your works that got you saved why would your works keep you saved? Works salvation goes against the Gospel. If you're depending on works to get you into heaven and are not covered by the blood of Jesus then you're in for a big surprise people. God is calling us to trust in Him and also believe in Him and not of yourselves.

TRUST AND BELIEVE in who? IN HIM! But what are we trusting and believing in? What HE did on the cross!! HIS works keep you saved, not ours. It is HIS works that He accomplished on the cross by dying a bloody and horrible death. If He didn't die for all sins then His death is in vain.

John 6:28-29 NIV Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" 29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

Rom 4:2-6 NIV If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God. 3 What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

Rom 9:30-33 NIV What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33 As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

Rom 11:5-7 NIV So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. 7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,

1 Cor 3:13-15 NIV his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

Eph 2:8-9 NIV For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

2 Tim 1:9 NIV He has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

Titus 3:5 NIV he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,
 

ATP

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Joyful said:
The Holy Spirit will not be given who don't appreciate Jesus' law or commands.
The Gospel I read says different. Rather it says if we believe we are granted eternal life. Works salvation is false.

John 3:36 NIV Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them.

John 5:24 NIV "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 NIV Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

Romans 10:9-10 NIV If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Rom 10:13 NIV for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
 

Joyful

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The Gospel I read says different. Rather it says if we believe we are granted eternal life. Works salvation is false.
Jesus says if you love Me, keep my commands. This is not a suggestion.

Without loving Jesus, there is no salvation.

You continually dismiss Jesus' own word.

There are tons of Jesus' word you are disregarding.

That's how it goes with man-made doctrines.
 

ATP

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Joyful said:
Jesus says if you love Me, keep my commands. This is not a suggestion.

Without loving Jesus, there is no salvation.

You continually dismiss Jesus' own word.

There are tons of Jesus' word you are disregarding.

That's how it goes with man-made doctrines.
No, Jesus says to trust in him and not of your works. Works salvation is false. John 6:28-29 NIV Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" 29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
 

heretoeternity

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Matthew 7 not everyone who says to me lord lord did we not cast out demons etc....and I will say to them "depart from me I never knew you you who practice lawlessness....(disobedience to the law)
Rev 12 and 14...salvation is for those "who have the testimony of Jesus and follow the commandments of God"
 

ATP

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heretoeternity said:
Rev 12 and 14...salvation is for those "who have the testimony of Jesus and follow the commandments of God"
No, salvation is for those who believe in the resurrection and who are saved by grace through faith. The moment you believe is when you are granted eternal life.

John 3:36 NIV Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them.

John 5:24 NIV "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 NIV Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

Romans 10:9-10 NIV If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Rom 10:13 NIV for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
 

ATP

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We are only believing once.....

Matt 21:25 NIV John’s baptism—where did it come from? Was it from heaven, or of human origin?” They discussed it among themselves and said, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ he will ask, ‘Then why didn’t you believe him?’

Matt 21:31-32 NIV “Which of the two did what his father wanted?” “The first,” they answered. Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. 32For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.

Matt 27:42 NIV “He saved others,” they said, “but he can’t save himself! He’s the king of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him.

John 1:12-13 NIV Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

John 2:23 NIV Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Festival, many people saw the signs he was performing and believed in his name.

John 3:12 NIV I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

John 3:14-15 NIV Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

John 3:16 NIV For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:18 NIV Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

John 4:42 NIV They said to the woman, "We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world."

John 5:24 NIV “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 5:37-38 NIV And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent.

John 6:28-29 NIV Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" 29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

John 6:35-40 NIV Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

John 6:47 NIV I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.

John 6:64 NIV Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

John 6:69 NIV We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God."

John 7:38-39 NIV Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them." 39By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

John 7:48 NIV "Has any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed in him?

John 8:24 NIV I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am [the one I claim to be], you will indeed die in your sins."

John 8:31-32 NIV To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

John 8:46-47 NIV Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47 He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

John 9:35-38 NIV Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" 36 "Who is he, sir?" the man asked. "Tell me so that I may believe in him." 37 Jesus said, "You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you." 38 Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him.

John 10:25-26 NIV Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

John 10:41-42 NIV and many people came to him. They said, "Though John never performed a miraculous sign, all that John said about this man was true." 42 And in that place many believed in Jesus.

John 11:25-26 NIV Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

John 11:40-42 NIV Then Jesus said, "Did I not tell you that if you believed, you would see the glory of God?" 41 So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, "Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me."

John 13:19-20 NIV "I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am He. 20 I tell you the truth, whoever accepts anyone I send accepts me; and whoever accepts me accepts the one who sent me."

John 14:11 NIV Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

John 14:29 NIV I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe.

John 16:8-11 NIV When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

John 16:27 NIV No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.

John 17:8 NIV For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.

John 17:20-21 NIV "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

John 20:25 NIV So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."

John 20:29-31 NIV Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." 30 Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Acts 4:4 NIV But many who heard the message believed, and the number of men grew to about five thousand.

Acts 5:14 NIV Nevertheless, more and more men and women believed in the Lord and were added to their number.

Acts 9:42 NIV This became known all over Joppa, and many people believed in the Lord.

Acts 10:43 NIV All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."

Acts 11:17 NIV So if God gave them the same gift as he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?"

Acts 13:39 NIV Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.

Acts 13:46-48 NIV Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. 47 For this is what the Lord has commanded us: " 'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.' " 48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

Acts 14:1-2 NIV At Iconium Paul and Barnabas went as usual into the Jewish synagogue. There they spoke so effectively that a great number of Jews and Gentiles believed. 2 But the Jews who refused to believe stirred up the Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers.

Acts 14:27 NIV On arriving there, they gathered the church together and reported all that God had done through them and how he had opened the door of faith to the Gentiles.

Acts 15:7 NIV After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe.

Acts 16:30-31 NIV He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household."

Acts 17:12 NIV Many of the Jews believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men.

Acts 17:34 NIV A few men became followers of Paul and believed. Among them was Dionysius, a member of the Areopagus, also a woman named Damaris, and a number of others.

Acts 18:8 NIV Crispus, the synagogue ruler, and his entire household believed in the Lord; and many of the Corinthians who heard him believed and were baptized.

Acts 18:27-28 NIV When Apollos wanted to go to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples there to welcome him. On arriving, he was a great help to those who by grace had believed. 28 For he vigorously refuted the Jews in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.

Acts 19:2 NIV and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."

Acts 19:18 NIV Many of those who believed now came and openly confessed their evil deeds.

Acts 20:21 NIV I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

Acts 21:20 NIV When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: "You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law.

Acts 22:19 NIV " 'Lord,' I replied, 'these men know that I went from one synagogue to another to imprison and beat those who believe in you.

Acts 23:6 NIV Then Paul, knowing that some of them were Sadducees and the others Pharisees, called out in the Sanhedrin, "My brothers, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee. I stand on trial because of my hope in the resurrection of the dead."

Acts 24:21 NIV unless it was this one thing I shouted as I stood in their presence: 'It is concerning the resurrection of the dead that I am on trial before you today.' "

Acts 24:24 NIV Several days later Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was a Jewess. He sent for Paul and listened to him as he spoke about faith in Christ Jesus.

Acts 26:18 NIV to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.'

Acts 28:23-24 NIV They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. From morning till evening he explained and declared to them the kingdom of God and tried to convince them about Jesus from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets. 24 Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe.

Rom 1:8 NIV First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world.

Rom 1:16 NIV I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

Rom 3:22 NIV This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,

Rom 4:13 NIV It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.

Rom 4:24 NIV but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

Rom 10:3-4 NIV Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

Rom 10:9-10 NIV If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Rom 10:14-16 NIV How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!" 16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?"

Rom 13:11 NIV And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.

Rom 16:26 NIV but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him--

1 Cor 1:21 NIV For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Gal 3:22 NIV But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Heb 4:3 ESV For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall not enter my rest,’” although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.

1 John 2:13-14 NIV I am writing to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. 14 I write to you, dear children, because you know the Father. I write to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God lives in you, and you have overcome the evil one.

1 John 5:1 NIV Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.

1 John 5:5 NIV Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

1 John 5:13-14 NIV I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God:
 

Barrd

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...following a Jewish carpenter...
ATP said:
But how can that be, the law isn't what keeps you in Christ, it is grace. It says neither present nor future can separate the elect from the love of God, the love of God that is in Christ Jesus. The Holy Spirit that dwells in you. Unconditional love IS unconditional salvation. It's the same thing. Nonbelievers are actually considered God's enemies that live apart from his love.

So Rom 8:33-39 is not talking about the whole world here or even those who keep the law, rather it speaks of a specific group of people and that is born again believers washed in the blood of Christ. Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins out of LOVE. This is the good news of the Gospel. Rom 8:39 ESV "neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is IN Christ Jesus our Lord."

The word "elect" is eklektos in Greek which means chosen or selected. Typically, 1588 /eklektós ("select, chosen") describes people who choose to follow the Lord, i.e. become God's choice by freely receiving faith (4102 /pístis) from Him. Accordingly, these two terms are directly connected (see Tit 1:1; Lk 18:7,8). What faith are you referring to ATP, and how do we receive it?

Well, if you turn your page to Rom 10:9-10 NIV and Eph 2:8-9 NIV it will tell you. Faith comes through believing John 3:36 NIV, John 5:24 NIV, John 6:47 NIV, Romans 10:9-10 NIV, Rom 10:13 NIV. The "elect" are born again believers who have accepted the free gift of salvation by grace through faith......

Matt 24:22 NIV "If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

Matt 24:31 NIV And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Luke 18:7 ESV And will not God give justice to his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them?

John 6:39 NIV And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

John 13:18 NIV "I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill the scripture: 'He who shares my bread has lifted up his heel against me.'

John 17:9-10 NIV I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them.

Rom 8:31-33 ESV What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect?

Rom 9:11 NIV Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand:

Rom 11:5-7 NIV So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. 7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,

Rom 11:28-29 NIV As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

1 Thess 1:4-5 KJV Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. 5For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

If it wasn't your works that got you saved why would your works keep you saved? Works salvation goes against the Gospel. If you're depending on works to get you into heaven and are not covered by the blood of Jesus then you're in for a big surprise people. God is calling us to trust in Him and also believe in Him and not of yourselves.

TRUST AND BELIEVE in who? IN HIM! But what are we trusting and believing in? What HE did on the cross!! HIS works keep you saved, not ours. It is HIS works that He accomplished on the cross by dying a bloody and horrible death. If He didn't die for all sins then His death is in vain.

John 6:28-29 NIV Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" 29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

Rom 4:2-6 NIV If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God. 3 What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

Rom 9:30-33 NIV What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33 As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

Rom 11:5-7 NIV So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. 7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,

1 Cor 3:13-15 NIV his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

Eph 2:8-9 NIV For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

2 Tim 1:9 NIV He has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

Titus 3:5 NIV he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,
Because Jesus said "if you love Me, keep My commandments."
Who are the "elect" but those who love Him? And those who love Him will keep His commandments.
Who are His disciples but those who follow Him? And those who follow Him will be like Him...we will be obedient, even as He was and is obedient.
No, we are not justified by keeping the law, no one said that. But our walk with Him is one of obedience, just as He was also obedient to His Father in Heaven.
We are justified by faith, and not of works, lest anyone should boast. Yeah, we got that.
But faith without works is dead...and dead faith can't save anyone.
Who was in that upper room on the Day of Pentecost, but 120 disciples? People who loved Him, and who followed Him. People brimming over with love...
It really isn't rocket science....

EDIT:
BTW, I use the King James Version...I have loved it since I was a little girl. (That was quite awhile ago...)
 

ATP

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The Barrd said:
It really isn't rocket science....
You're right it's not rocket science. If you choose to sin you will lose crowns and rewards in heaven, not salvation. Works salvation is opposite of what Jesus preached. To be granted eternal life all Jesus is telling us to do is to believe in Him. We either believe in what the Word says or we don't. Very simple.

John 3:14-15 NIV Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

John 3:16 NIV For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 5:24 NIV “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:40 NIV For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

John 6:47 NIV I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.

Acts 13:46-48 NIV Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. 47 For this is what the Lord has commanded us: " 'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.' " 48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

1 John 5:13-14 NIV I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God:
 

Barrd

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...following a Jewish carpenter...
You seem to think that "believe" simply means to accept the fact that Jesus exists...maybe even that He is the Son of God...and that's it.
Perhaps you have not read:

Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


Please, if you will not hear the words of all of these people speaking to you, hear the words of the Beloved Disciple. What you have been preaching here are half-truths...scriptures taken out of context, totally ignoring many, many other passages that clearly show your error.
I once believed as you do now...I'm ashamed to admit it, but it is true. I listened to all those "proof texts" without even giving a nod to any verse that disagreed with what I had been taught.

ATP those verses are there...ignoring them and the people bringing them to your attention is not going to make them go away. The fact is that there is real work involved in following Jesus Christ...fighting temptation, learning to do good and live a life that is pleasing to God rather than living to please ourselves. It means dedication...and yes...it means obedience.
Oh, but there is real peace in that sweet surrender. Peace that only the Lord can give to you...

All I am asking, my friend, is that you consider, as I once had to, that you might be wrong...that there might be more to this salvation business than you were taught. Just consider all these scriptures that I and others have presented to you in this thread...and, hey...read and study for yourself! That doesn't mean just reread the "canned scriptures" that "prove" what you want to prove....it means searching the scripture to see if these things be so.
If I could do it, surely you can as well! You won't die from a bit of effort, I promise.

But you might die without it...
 

ATP

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The Barrd said:
You seem to think that "believe" simply means to accept the fact that Jesus exists
No, remember....ask first before you assume things. When I speak of believing I'm referring to the "acceptance of needing a Savior" and the "resurrection of Jesus Christ, God raising him from the dead". Many people confess but do not believe. This is what grants you eternal life, believing and confessing.

Rom 10:9-10 NIV If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
 

Barrd

His Humble Servant
Jul 27, 2015
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...following a Jewish carpenter...
ATP said:
No, remember....ask first before you assume things. When I speak of believing I'm referring to the "acceptance of needing a Savior" and the "resurrection of Jesus Christ, God raising him from the dead". Many people confess but do not believe. This is what grants you eternal life, believing and confessing.

Rom 10:9-10 NIV If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
And of course, you ignored the rest of my post.
I understand.
It makes me very sad...but I do understand.
 

Joyful

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I believe Martin Luther introduced OSAS concept and John Calvin established it.

It seems that protestants did not go far from their mother church, in fact, they seem to went backward.
 
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