Sabbath-Keeping

[Barrd]

That passage has nothing to do with losing your salvation though. It is simply stating a fact about faith without works.

2 Tim 3:1-5 NIV But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God--5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.

Rom 1:16 NIV For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

Yes...and dead faith cannot save anyone. Don't you see...works cannot save you, that is true. But if you truly have faith, the spirit of God within you will work through you...and you will repent and turn from your sin.

Those people in 2 Tim that Paul warned us about...you don't think any of them are saved, do you? Of course not. Their actions make it obvious that they do not know Jesus Christ.
These are the people, Paul goes on to say, who "creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts."
They are "ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."

From my beloved KJV:
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2Ti 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
2Ti 3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.

I submit that these are people who, at one time, believed Jesus for their salvation...but they have fallen away.

I'm glad you went to Romans. There is much more in this chapter that you need to be aware of:

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Here again we see people who have been shown that which may be known of God...but they have earned His wrath with their "ungodliness and unrighteousness". They "hold the truth"....but they hold it "in unrighteousness." They evidently believe...they "hold the truth"...but it isn't going to save them.

How can that be?
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

Here again, they knew God...but they did not glorify Him as God, neither were they thankful. They believed, but they "became vain in their imaginations...and their foolish heart was darkened." They thought that they were wise...but God says that they became fools.
They believed...but their belief did not save them.

Oh, but that isn't the worst of it:
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

See here where "God also gave them up to uncleanness"? Their belief did not save them, but God gave them up to "the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves".

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

I do hope your friend Mjrhealth is listening here.
Here again, we see that "God gave them up."
They believed, but their belief did not save them.
Instead, "God gave them up unto vile affections"...not to put too fine a point on it, they were gay.
God says this is "not seemly" and that they receive "in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."

They believed...but their belief did not save them.
Please understand...this OSAS doctrine is attractive...and for those who truly follow Jesus Christ, there is some truth in it...but for many it is a stumbling block, leading them to believe that all they have to do is get good and wet, say a few pretty "church words"....and hey, presto...they may now live any way they like, because, by golly, they is "SAVED", "saved by de blood of de lamb, halelujah, praise de Lawd!" We see them all over the place...drinking up a storm on Saturday night, committing adultery, doing whatever they please...but it's all good, because on Sunday morning they are sitting in their accustomed pew, singing "Just As I Am"...knowing good and well that they are going to do it all again.
But God is not mocked, ATP...
Please, please...don't you see that people who think this way are NOT SAVED? They need our help. They need to understand that repentance IS a part of salvation. They need to know that "born again" means a changed life. Pray for them, my friend...but don't encourage them. You would not want your words to be the push that lands some poor sap in hell....

 

[ATP]

They believed...but their belief did not save them.

But it did save them. When you declare with your mouth and believe in your heart, you are saved friend...

Rom 10:9-10 NIV If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

 

[ATP]

If we could follow the ten commandments and avoid sin every day, the world wouldn't be in need of a savior.

 

[Barrd]

But it did save them. When you declare with your mouth and believe in your heart, you are saved friend...

Rom 10:9-10 NIV If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

So, are you telling me that you think those folks we just discussed will be in Heaven?

Look again at the verse you posted.

From my own beloved KJV:

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

What a lovely verse! And the next is like unto it:

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Yes...with the heart we believe unto righteousness! Doesn't that mean that we have repented of our sins and put them behind us? Aren't we made new?

Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed

Yes...and I am not ashamed. My sin, which caused so much sorrow in my life, was a cause for shame...but I repented and put it behind me.

What do you think this verse means?
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

ATP...they "hold the truth"...but they hold it "in unrighteousness".
Look at what it says...."the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men"...those words definitely indicate that they are not saved!

I really don't think you've thought it through, my friend.
And I'd be willing to bet my last Jesus fish bumper sticker that you, too, have confessed and repented of your sin, and put it behind you. The Holy Spirit within us will not let us rest until we have done so.

And this is what "eternal security" is really all about. As you have said, we are "sealed"...but if He is truly dwelling within us, we will strive to live a righteous life, is it not so? And when we "mess up", we will feel Godly sorrow.

But not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" will be saved. Now, I don't know about you, but I find that verse troubling. The fact is that there are those who call upon His name who are workers of iniquity...still lost in their sin.
It is hard sometimes to detect those wolves who wear sheep's clothing. But they are everywhere. They are those who would lead God's people away from Him...

Remember, we have a vicious enemy who is raging up and down like a lion, looking for gullible souls to devour.

We need to understand this. Not everyone is strong in their faith. Some are easily led away into temptation. For their sakes, we need to tell them the truth...their sin separates them from God.

After all, that is why He suffered on the cross in the first place, isn't it? Let's not trample His blood under our feet....

 

[Barrd]

If we could follow the ten commandments and avoid sin every day, the world wouldn't be in need of a savior.

That is exactly the point, ATP!
We DO need a Savior!
Why?
Because we sin!
Now, that sin is what put our Savior on the cross. Open up your heart, ATP...see Him, beaten and bloody, so weak that another had to carry His cross for Him. Watch as He turns His head away, refusing to drink the mixture offered to Him. Listen as the nails...cruel spikes...are being driven through His hands and feet...hear Him groaning in an agony too great to be borne. See those thorns, and the blood dripping down His poor, beaten face.
He suffered all of this because of our sin. Because of sin, ATP. My sin. Your sin.
How can we not feel remorse? How can we not repent of our sin? See what a price our beloved Lord must pay for our foolishness! It is enough!
Love alone would dictate that we must repent...we simply must not continue living in our sin.

And we must not teach others that it is okay for them to continue in their sin. You must know that this is not true.

But our Savior also promised to send us His Spirit to dwell within us. We are being "conformed to Christ". One sweet day, we will awaken to find ourselves like Him! And we will be able to follow the Ten Commandments and avoid sin every day! What a glorious day that will be!
Meantime, we are still sinners...and we still need to repent.

 

[ATP]

What do you think this verse means?
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

It's referring to nonbelievers. Rom 1:18-32 NIV are about people who have come to the knowledge of God and have heard the truth of the Gospel but have not accepted Christ as savior. Many will confess Jesus as Lord, but will refuse to believe it in their heart. God's wrath is no longer on the believer..

Dan 12:1 NIV “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

John 3:36 NIV "Whoever puts his faith in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see that life, for God's wrath remains on him."

Rom 5:9 NIV Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!

1 Thess 1:9-10 NIV for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

1 Thess 5:9-10 NIV For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

Heb 4:3 ESV For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall not enter my rest,’” although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Rev 3:10 NIV Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth

 

[mjrhealth]

Now, that sin is what put our Savior on the cross.

It was teh LAW that put Christ on teh Cross, it was sin that Jesus took upon Himself to enter into hell, without it He could not as He was witout spot and blameless. Before He entered in there was a gulf between Heaven and the place of the dead. remember the rich man and lazerith, because of Him that has gone.

In All His Love

 

[mjrhealth]

Have you had any 2nd thots regarding your acceptance of gays into the kingdom of God? Or, have I misinterpreted your stance from so long ago when you first brought it up in another thread?

Never said they would, its how they are seperated out and hated despised by christians as if it was impossible for them to be saved, men really have no clue on who god is. lf i was to condmen them I would have to condemn myself, as Bard states we are all sinners, not just them. and theirs is no worse than yours, but they are a nice easy target. If a sinner can get to heaven by grace so can they.

Luk 7:42 And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?
Luk 7:43 Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.

In all His Love

 

[Barrd]

It was teh LAW that put Christ on teh Cross, it was sin that Jesus took upon Himself to enter into hell, without it He could not as He was witout spot and blameless. Before He entered in there was a gulf between Heaven and the place of the dead. remember the rich man and lazerith, because of Him that has gone.

In All His Love

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

So we see here that Jesus suffered for our sins.
It would really help if you were to read your Bible, Mj.

The business about the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is for another thread....let's not derail this one.

 

[Joyful]

That passage has nothing to do with losing your salvation though. It is simply stating a fact about faith without works.

What makes you think dead faith can save you?

 

[Barrd]

Never said they would, its how they are seperated out and hated despised by christians as if it was impossible for them to be saved, men really have no clue on who god is. lf i was to condmen them I would have to condemn myself, as Bard states we are all sinners, not just them. and theirs is no worse than yours, but they are a nice easy target. If a sinner can get to heaven by grace so can they.

Luk 7:42 And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?
Luk 7:43 Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.

In all His Love

Some Christians do have a very bad attitude toward homosexuality.
But then, for some reason, sex is a major stumbling block, isn't it? The story you mentioned from Luke 7 involves a prostitute who barged in to Simon's house while Jesus sat at his dinner table, and threw herself at His feet, kissing them and wetting them with her tears, and drying them with her hair. Simon, who was a tax collector, collecting taxes for the Romans, and lining his own pocket while he was about it, saw this and decided in his mind that Jesus wasn't a prophet after all, or else He would have known that she was a prostitute, and He wouldn't have let her touch him.
But Jesus knew what Simon was thinking, and told him the story of the two debtors, one who owed a little money, and the other substantially more.
His point was that the woman at His feet had been forgiven much, and that is why she had so much love.

Now, do you suppose she was back out hooking the next day? Or was she a part of the crowd who followed Him from then on?
I know where I would have been.
What about you, Mj?

 

[Barrd]

It's referring to nonbelievers. Rom 1:18-32 NIV are about people who have come to the knowledge of God and have heard the truth of the Gospel but have not accepted Christ as savior. Many will confess Jesus as Lord, but will refuse to believe it in their heart. God's wrath is no longer on the believer..

Dan 12:1 NIV “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

John 3:36 NIV "Whoever puts his faith in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see that life, for God's wrath remains on him."

Rom 5:9 NIV Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!

1 Thess 1:9-10 NIV for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

1 Thess 5:9-10 NIV For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

Heb 4:3 ESV For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall not enter my rest,’” although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Rev 3:10 NIV Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth

From my beloved KJV:

Faith Without Works Is Dead

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

And the commentary from my E-Sword:

James 2:14-26

DEEDS THE EVIDENCE OF FAITH

The Apostle is speaking here of a faith that does not result in a changed life. It is the faith which believes about Jesus Christ, as distinguished from that which believes in Him. We may believe about Him as we do about Luther or Washington, but such faith will not avail, either here or hereafter. It can no more affect our condition than the pious wish that a shivering beggar may be warmed, and fed will make him either one or the other.

The presence or absence of results in life and conduct is the real test of faith, as the green shoot of a living seed. James calls these results works. We are justified by works, because they prove our faith to be the real faith. Real faith binds the soul to the living Christ, produces deep penitence and humility, and brings about an absolutely new sort of behavior-as when Abraham was willing to offer Isaac, and Rahab received and assisted the spies. To reckon on God is to be a friend of God.

^_^

 

[ATP]

Faith Without Works Is Dead

But this has nothing to do with losing salvation. Quenching the spirit is not losing salvation.

 

[Barrd]

But this has nothing to do with losing salvation. Quenching the spirit is not losing salvation.

I don't think you read my entire post.
I don't really blame you...I very often only skim through major "wall of text" posts myself. Although my post wasn't really all that long...
Anyway, I will repost the most important bit from the commentary:

The Apostle is speaking here of a faith that does not result in a changed life. It is the faith which believes about Jesus Christ, as distinguished from that which believes in Him. We may believe about Him as we do about Luther or Washington, but such faith will not avail, either here or hereafter.

We are justified by works, because they prove our faith to be the real faith. Real faith binds the soul to the living Christ, produces deep penitence and humility, and brings about an absolutely new sort of behavior

 

[Barrd]

See, ATP, as I keep saying...you're partly right, as far as you've gone.
Yes, it is faith that saves us. It is not keeping the law or any such thing. It is faith.
But faith will not save you if it is not real, living, working faith. Real faith in Jesus Christ would mean believing every word that ever came out of His mouth, and conducting our lives according to those words.

 

[ATP]

1 Cor 3:13-15 NIV his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

1 Cor 15:10 NIV But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them--yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.

 

[mjrhealth]

Some Christians do have a very bad attitude toward homosexuality.

Yes they do...

But then, for some reason, sex is a major stumbling block, isn't it?

YEs it is, why is it such a problem for you... a bit like the law.


Rom_9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;


Lovely morning, rain pattering down, another day with My Lord, all my days are good days.

 

[Phoneman777]

Not only does the NT seal give us a timeline of how long we are sealed, but the NT also says once we believe we have eternal life. What more proof do you need?


Yeah, the spirit of Jesus was in the OT.
Jesus body being crucified and resurrecting is in the NT.
Do you understand the difference,
and the seriousness of what we're discussing.

ATP, there will be countless people on the Day of Judgment who "believed" they had eternal life and "believed" they were sealed by the Holy Spirit, but will be told to depart from Jesus.

I know how to avoid that Satanic deception. You need to find out how to avoid it as well.

 

[Phoneman777]

That passage has nothing to do with losing your salvation though. It is simply stating a fact about faith without works.

2 Tim 3:1-5 NIV But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God--5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.

Rom 1:16 NIV For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

Bro, faith without works is DEAD.

The idiocy of OSAS is that it offers an entrance to heaven - which we all agree is obtained by living faith - to those who have DEAD faith.

 

[Phoneman777]

ATP you are reading a lot of your own flawed interpretation into the scriptures..you have obviously been the victim of a lot of false teachings from the pagan roman system..time to stick with the word of God, whether you want to go to old or new Testament....remember in Revelation 12 and 14 salvation is for those "who have the testimony of Jesus AND FOLLOW GOD'S COMMANDMENTS"

I enjoy your posts, bro. Keep exposing the Papal lies that have so permeated Protestant thinking.