Sabbath-Keeping

[mjrhealth]

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

But once again, around teh circle we go.Answer this one little question again,

If you did not have the law, would you deliberately go and kill someone, steal, rape and murder, hate God, and work Ill to your neighbour.

It really is not that hard a question,Is it. really.

 

[Phoneman777]

I have already pointed out that consciousness of morality is not equivalent to the existance of the 10 commandments, just as I have pointed out that being under them has no effect on whether or not anyone keeps them.

So instead of throwing out yet another red herring, please let me know whether or not you are prepared to answer my questions.

YES OR NO????

Or do you know anyone else who can?

YES OR NO????

We are not obligated to keep the Ten Commandments but we are not allowed to act contrary to the Ten Commandments, right? OK, let's see if I've got this right:

1) We are not allowed to act contrary to the 1st commandment by, say, worshiping Glycon, the "coolest rock and roll god" of Alan Moore?
2) ...to act contrary to the 2nd by, say, engaging in a Bohemian Grove 30 foot tall stone Owl idol ceremony?
3) ...to act contrary to the 3rd by, say, speaking blasphemous things against God?
4) ...to act contrary to the 4th by, say, failing to keep the Sabbath day holy by resting on it after having worked all week?
5) ...to act contrary to the 5th by, say, dishonoring our father and mother?
6) ...to act contrary to the 6th by, say killing someone?
7) ...to act contrary to the 7th by, say, sleeping around with unmarried women?
8) ...to act contrary to the 8th by, say, taking things that don't belong to us?
9) ...to act contrary to the 9th by, say, lying to others?
10) ...to act contrary to the 10th by, say, jealously desiring what others possess?

Still not sure what the diff is between "not at liberty to act contrary to them" and my claim all along that we are indeed obligated to them...

 

[UppsalaDragby]

Why do you yell so much? Volume is a poor substitute for a solid argument.

I don't "yell", I emphasize, and the more I stumble on incredibly daft arguments that contradict scripture the more I emphasize.

Thus, in your case, giving the impression that I yell "a lot".

IF I WAS YELLING THEN I WOULD BE DOING SOMETHING LIKE THIS! If I was emphasizing then I would be doing THIS. Get it?

You are free to do the same. I don't care one way or the other...

And try as you might, you cannot refute the fact that the Ten Commandments are repeated in the New Testament in the context of our obligation to them, the fact that the Ten Commandments will exist for all eternity while the Mosaic Law of sacrifices and ceremonies was nailed to the Cross 2,000 years ago, and that those who refuse to keep the Ten Commandments, both in Letter and in Spirit, will not gain admittance into the kingdom. If the Bible didn't say any of this, I would agree with what you are saying.

Ok.... well let's look at your claims. You claim that we are under the "obligation" to keep them. And you say that if the Bible didn't say this then you would agree with me. So where does the Bible say that we are obligated to keep the 10 commandments? I can see them being mentioned, but nowhere (not yelling, just emphasizing) does it mention any "obligation", a word that you throw about as if it supports your theology. The word obligation suggests that you MUST comply to whatever it is pointing towards. So what according to you, happens if you don't?

And where exactly (again, since you are claiming that you would agree with me unless the bible taught you otherwise) does the NT mention any "obligation" for Christians to observe a 24 hour sabbath? And where (if it is an obligation) does it point out the consequences of not doing so? My Bible says something completely different, so where does your Bible differ from mine?

Oh, and by the way, why are you quoting my comments, implying that dont have a "solid argument" and yet don't even bother to address what I have say?

Would you have answered my points if I have refrained from using emphasis, or "yelling" if that's what you want to call it?

I just want you to answer them.. Why don't you???

 

[UppsalaDragby]

We are not obligated to keep the Ten Commandments but we are not allowed to act contrary to the Ten Commandments, right? OK, let's see if I've got this right:

1) We are not allowed to act contrary to the 1st commandment by, say, worshiping Glycon, the "coolest rock and roll god" of Alan Moore?
2) ...to act contrary to the 2nd by, say, engaging in a Bohemian Grove 30 foot tall stone Owl idol ceremony?
3) ...to act contrary to the 3rd by, say, speaking blasphemous things against God?
4) ...to act contrary to the 4th by, say, failing to keep the Sabbath day holy by resting on it after having worked all week?
5) ...to act contrary to the 5th by, say, dishonoring our father and mother?
6) ...to act contrary to the 6th by, say killing someone?
7) ...to act contrary to the 7th by, say, sleeping around with unmarried women?
8) ...to act contrary to the 8th by, say, taking things that don't belong to us?
9) ...to act contrary to the 9th by, say, lying to others?
10) ...to act contrary to the 10th by, say, jealously desiring what others possess?

Still not sure what the diff is between "not at liberty to act contrary to them" and my claim all along that we are indeed obligated to them...

Well before I do you the service of answering your questions, dispite the fact that you refuse to answer mine, perhaps you can explain to me

1. what you mean by "allowed".

2. Where, if anywhere, I have been making the point that we are "allowed" to worship other Gods?
3. Where, if anywhere, I have been making the point that we are "allowed" to worship idols?
4. Where, if anywhere, I have been making the point that we are "allowed" to blaspheme?
5. Where, if anywhere, I have been making the point that we are "allowed" to adhere to a gospel of works rather than faith in Jesus (i.e. not the shadow, but the reality)?
6. Where, if anywhere, I have been making the point that we are "allowed" to dishonor our father or mother....


.... well I could go on... but obviously I am NOT advocating that we are "allowed" to do ANY of these things, but rather that we CANNOT do otherwise due to our carnal nature.

Grace does NOT say that we are "allowed" to do ANY of these things. Grace simply says that since we are carnal and weak and cannot keep them God has provided an offer lamb, the faith in whom provides forgiveness for such transgressions. That throws "obligation" out the door! God has NEVER given anyone an obligation to do what he cannot do. And even if you THINK you are pleasing God by doing your best to keep the 10 commandments (while snuffing out the rest) you most likely are NOT, since pride, and human effort, don't smell very good in his nostrils. The "obligations" of the NT (i.e. the commandments that are NOT burdensome) are the things that we CAN do:

Can we believe in Jesus? Yes we can!

Can we love our neighbors? Yes we can! (even the obnoxious ones).

Now you can go through each and every one of the 10 commandment, and I promise you, you will have a really hard time explaining how you even know, for a fact, you have kept them. That's another challenge. Let's see if you address it or not.

You have been deceived Phoneman. You have been subjected to a different Gospel, one that contradicts what it clearly says. Why don't you do yourself a favor and try for once to acknowledge this?

 

[zeke25]

Galatians 2:4 KJV, "And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ [Yahoshua], that they might bring us into bondage[.]"

1 John 1:8 KJV, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

 

[UppsalaDragby]

I'm still waiting, after 25 pages on this topic, for ANY SDA, or Sabbatarian, to answer my questions.

Why are there NONE that can do this?

Why are there NONE that can even admit that they can't?

It's like talking to a brick wall!

 

[Phoneman777]

Well before I do you the service of answering your questions, dispite the fact that you refuse to answer mine, perhaps you can explain to me

1. what you mean by "allowed".

2. Where, if anywhere, I have been making the point that we are "allowed" to worship other Gods?
3. Where, if anywhere, I have been making the point that we are "allowed" to worship idols?
4. Where, if anywhere, I have been making the point that we are "allowed" to blaspheme?
5. Where, if anywhere, I have been making the point that we are "allowed" to adhere to a gospel of works rather than faith in Jesus (i.e. not the shadow, but the reality)?
6. Where, if anywhere, I have been making the point that we are "allowed" to dishonor our father or mother....


.... well I could go on... but obviously I am NOT advocating that we are "allowed" to do ANY of these things, but rather that we CANNOT do otherwise due to our carnal nature.

Grace does NOT say that we are "allowed" to do ANY of these things. Grace simply says that since we are carnal and weak and cannot keep them God has provided an offer lamb, the faith in whom provides forgiveness for such transgressions. That throws "obligation" out the door! God has NEVER given anyone an obligation to do what he cannot do. And even if you THINK you are pleasing God by doing your best to keep the 10 commandments (while snuffing out the rest) you most likely are NOT, since pride, and human effort, don't smell very good in his nostrils. The "obligations" of the NT (i.e. the commandments that are NOT burdensome) are the things that we CAN do:

Can we believe in Jesus? Yes we can!

Can we love our neighbors? Yes we can! (even the obnoxious ones).

Now you can go through each and every one of the 10 commandment, and I promise you, you will have a really hard time explaining how you even know, for a fact, you have kept them. That's another challenge. Let's see if you address it or not.

You have been deceived Phoneman. You have been subjected to a different Gospel, one that contradicts what it clearly says. Why don't you do yourself a favor and try for once to acknowledge this?

Your false prophets have led you into deception because they've taught you that you can't keep the Ten Commandments while the Bible repeatedly says that we can do "all things through Christ which strengthens us", which includes keeping the Ten Commandments.

If the child of a smoker has an explosive charge implanted in his neck and the smoker is told that the next time he smokes the charge will explode, the great love for his child will compel the smoker to never again light up another cigarette. Don't you tell me that we can't obey the Ten Commandments. As sure as I'm born a man, the problem isn't whether or not we can obey - it is whether or not we want to obey. And here lies the ugly truth: people who refuse to give up their breaking the Ten Commandments have no love for Jesus, no matter what their profession.

The reason I don't answer your questions is because they emanate from your incorrect belief that God's Law of which He wrote in stone with His finger is not distinct from Mosaic Law. Also, your belief that "we are not obligated to keep the Ten Commandments but we are not at liberty to act contrary to them" is as I've said before - first rate creative theology which is a dichotomy in and of itself. How in the world can you be free from the obligation to obey a law if you can't act in a manner that is disobedient to that law???

 

[Phoneman777]

I'm still waiting, after 25 pages on this topic, for ANY SDA, or Sabbatarian, to answer my questions.

Why are there NONE that can do this?

Why are there NONE that can even admit that they can't?

It's like talking to a brick wall!

Your questions are based on flawed exegesis, such as your claim that the Bible makes no distinction between the Ten Commandments and the Mosaic Law, so the only way to answer your questions is to set aside the Bible, which we who have the truth are not willing to do.

 

[Phoneman777]

I don't "yell", I emphasize, and the more I stumble on incredibly daft arguments that contradict scripture the more I emphasize.

Thus, in your case, giving the impression that I yell "a lot".

IF I WAS YELLING THEN I WOULD BE DOING SOMETHING LIKE THIS! If I was emphasizing then I would be doing THIS. Get it?

You are free to do the same. I don't care one way or the other...


Ok.... well let's look at your claims. You claim that we are under the "obligation" to keep them. And you say that if the Bible didn't say this then you would agree with me. So where does the Bible say that we are obligated to keep the 10 commandments? I can see them being mentioned, but nowhere (not yelling, just emphasizing) does it mention any "obligation", a word that you throw about as if it supports your theology. The word obligation suggests that you MUST comply to whatever it is pointing towards. So what according to you, happens if you don't?

And where exactly (again, since you are claiming that you would agree with me unless the bible taught you otherwise) does the NT mention any "obligation" for Christians to observe a 24 hour sabbath? And where (if it is an obligation) does it point out the consequences of not doing so? My Bible says something completely different, so where does your Bible differ from mine?

Oh, and by the way, why are you quoting my comments, implying that dont have a "solid argument" and yet don't even bother to address what I have say?

Would you have answered my points if I have refrained from using emphasis, or "yelling" if that's what you want to call it?

I just want you to answer them.. Why don't you???

You want to know where in the New Testament we are told to keep the Ten Commandments? Fine.

Paul says that Christians are to "Honour thy father and thy mother, which is the first commandment with promise."
John tells Christians to "keep yourselves from idols".
James tells Christians that "if thou...kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law" which God spoke at Sinai. The same goes for adultery.
Paul says "let him (the Christian) steal no more".

The rest of the Ten Commandments can be found in the New Testament as well, so the question is not whether we are obligated to keep them but whether or not we are willing to keep them and those who are willing will find that "all things are possible to them that believe" including keeping the Ten Commandments.

 

[Axehead]

Brother, you've got it all wrong. The Ten Commandments were never lacking anything b/c David said "the law of the Lord is perfect". What is lacking is the love necessary for us to keep them. When Jesus supplies that love, the resultant obedience separates those who truly love Jesus from those who only give Him lip service.
God said, "My covenant will I not break nor alter the thing that is gone from My lips" and that which went forth from His lips that is an element of a covenant was the Ten Commandments. Since the only difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant is where the law is written, Christians will obey the Ten Commandments because they love Jesus, not to obtain salvation and likewise, people who profess to love Jesus but refuse to obey His commandments are called liars and have no truth in them, according to 1 John 2:3-4 KJV.

Thank you for giving our audience the opportunity to see the fallacy of your belief that it is possible to keep the Spirit of the Ten Commandments while setting aside the Letter of the Ten Commandments. If we're keeping the Spirit of them, we are automatically keeping the Letter of them. Paul's words of condemnation of the "Letter of the Law" are targeting those who attempt to obtain righteousness by that, not those who obey because they have been made righteous by faith alone in Jesus.

And the scriptures say the Law was holy and good, but it was only a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ. Yes, the 10 commandments were part of the Law that was our schoolmaster.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Gal_3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal_3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

A religious system was built around the Law, i.e. the traditions and commandments of men, which Jesus said nullified His word. Same thing is happening today by all the Christian religious systems. They have built around the NT with their traditions and commandments which nullify the commandments of Jesus and much of the NT. And you phoneman have added your traditions and commandments to the NT.

Matt 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
Matt 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Matt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mar 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

You are part of religious structure that

Religious structures today become an expression of "a form of godliness" through their traditions, doctrines and rituals, rather than becoming an expression of Jesus (which is true godliness). These structures lead people to make a commitment to their structure rather than to Jesus. The structures then become idols that are fiercely protected and defended. It does not really matter how the church members live or whether they walk out separate doors because of unforgiveness in their hearts toward other church members. It only matters that they show up for the religious exercises. When this happens in a congregation, a spirit of slumber (spiritual sleep) and darkness covers the multitude. The Spirit of God can have no control in their lives. They are lords of their own lives and live in spiritual darkness.

This is what your "commandments and traditions of men" which set aside the Word of God, do to people. Puts them in spiritual slumber. Commandments and traditions of men, can never lead one to godliness and holiness.
1Pet 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
1Pet 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

 

[Phoneman777]

And the scriptures say the Law was holy and good, but it was only a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ. Yes, the 10 commandments were part of the Law that was our schoolmaster.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Gal_3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal_3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

A religious system was built around the Law, i.e. the traditions and commandments of men, which Jesus said nullified His word. Same thing is happening today by all the Christian religious systems. They have built around the NT with their traditions and commandments which nullify the commandments of Jesus and much of the NT. And you phoneman have added your traditions and commandments to the NT.

Matt 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
Matt 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Matt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mar 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

You are part of religious structure that

Religious structures today become an expression of "a form of godliness" through their traditions, doctrines and rituals, rather than becoming an expression of Jesus (which is true godliness). These structures lead people to make a commitment to their structure rather than to Jesus. The structures then become idols that are fiercely protected and defended. It does not really matter how the church members live or whether they walk out separate doors because of unforgiveness in their hearts toward other church members. It only matters that they show up for the religious exercises. When this happens in a congregation, a spirit of slumber (spiritual sleep) and darkness covers the multitude. The Spirit of God can have no control in their lives. They are lords of their own lives and live in spiritual darkness.

This is what your "commandments and traditions of men" which set aside the Word of God, do to people. Puts them in spiritual slumber. Commandments and traditions of men, can never lead one to godliness and holiness.
1Pet 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
1Pet 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Why do you continue to drag "justification" into the debate? This is classic strawman tactic. No one is arguing that justification comes by the law. Therefore, I have added no such "commandments of men" to the plan of salvation.

What is being said is that obedience is the evidence that we have been justified by the inward abiding presence of Jesus, and likewise, disobedience is the evidence that we are yet to be justified. Please stop trying to change the debate.

The issue is whether the Ten Commandments are among the laws that Jesus empowers us to keep once He begins to dwell in our heart and I have provided ample evidence that the first four of the Ten Commandments are an expression of "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and soul, and mind" - and that the last six of the Ten Commandments are an expression of "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself". Read what Paul, James, Jesus, John, and others have said to New Testament Christians about the keeping of the Ten Commandments for yourself.

How in the world can it be said that we love God and our neighbor if we are not keeping the Ten Commandments? And how do you accuse me of preaching "commandments of men" when the New Testament over and over enjoins the keeping GOD"S Ten Commandments to Christian believers?

 

[mjrhealth]

Rev 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
Rev 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

Not you not me not the disciples, not the prophets, none of us are worthy because we are not capable of keeping the "law" as Christ did. Its all foolishness and vanity.

Rev_5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Rev_5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev_5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

God has a plan for the salvation of the Jews, it included them having the law than grace through Christ, and us receiving Grace to show Them, the Jews that Grace was teh better option. But so many foolish blinded men, thinking they could possibly even come close to achieving what Christ did, mock God but trying to be a Jew by keeping the law. Thank God for His patients if not we would all be blind and dead.

No more ,its done..

The blind leading the blind, so many christians are going to get a rude shock.

 

[zeke25]

Galatians 2:4 KJV, "And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ [Yahoshua], that they might bring us into bondage[.]"

1 John 1:8 KJV, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

 

[UppsalaDragby]

Your false prophets have led you into deception because they've taught you that you can't keep the Ten Commandments while the Bible repeatedly says that we can do "all things through Christ which strengthens us", which includes keeping the Ten Commandments.

What false prophets??? Unlike you I don't base my conclusions on any denominational teaching! I am non-denominational. I don't have ANY contemprorary "prophets" whatsoever! I base my conclusions about this on scripture. For example:

"We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good."

So the first false prophet you are referring to here is the apostle Paul. If anyone hates to sin, but does so with the acknowledgement that he is weak (rather than a distorted view that grace permits him to sin) then he is acknowledging that "the law is good". That is my acknowledgment.

The second apostle you are calling a false prophet is John, since what he says is this:

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

In other words, if any Christian claims that they are able to keep the 10 commandments (which according to SDAs define sin, and that the rest of the Mosiac covenant has been done away with) then they have deceived themselves and do not have truth in them.

So where does that leave you??

What you are saying is this: we can keep the 10 commandments and therefore be sinless.

What John says is that if any self-deciever who makes such a claim is a liar!

The reason I don't answer your questions is because they emanate from your incorrect belief that God's Law of which He wrote in stone with H0is finger is not distinct from Mosaic Law.

I have never once made that claim, so if you are going to make comments about what I "believe" then USE QUOTES!!!

I guess I will just have to quote myself:

Sure there are!

So that boots your false claim out the door!

I then go ahead to say:

But none of them "distinguish" them in the way you would like them to. There are NO scriptures that describe them as being separate from the Mosiac law whereas there ARE scripture that prove the opposite.

Again, you provide NOTHING to address this, just as you provide NOTHING that proves your point.

Also, your belief that "we are not obligated to keep the Ten Commandments but we are not at liberty to act contrary to them" is as I've said before - first rate creative theology which is a dichotomy in and of itself. How in the world can you be free from the obligation to obey a law if you can't act in a manner that is disobedient to that law???

I have already dealt with this. And when I did, I pointed out that what I meant by this is that we are not at liberty to act in a way that is inconsistent with the 10 commandments.

The fact that the grace we have in Christ provides concessions for sin, is not equivalent to saying that we are "at liberty" to sin. So once again, please be my guest and provide scriptural evidence that we have the abiltity to be sinless.

 

[UppsalaDragby]

You want to know where in the New Testament we are told to keep the Ten Commandments? Fine.

Paul says that Christians are to "Honour thy father and thy mother, which is the first commandment with promise."
John tells Christians to "keep yourselves from idols".
James tells Christians that "if thou...kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law" which God spoke at Sinai. The same goes for adultery.
Paul says "let him (the Christian) steal no more".

The rest of the Ten Commandments can be found in the New Testament as well, so the question is not whether we are obligated to keep them but whether or not we are willing to keep them and those who are willing will find that "all things are possible to them that believe" including keeping the Ten Commandments.

Again this idiotic insinuation that I, or anyone else here, is advocating doing things that are inconsistent with the law of Christ! No one is making that argument!

Now rather than referring to commandments that obviously can lead to breaking the law of Christ, why don't you point out where Paul mentions the 10 commandments as a unit (other than in 2 Cor 3)? And TRY for once to understand that NO ONE is suggesting that we who are save are free to "dishonour our parents", "kill", or "worship idols". We can refrain from doing those things, but that neither means that we are keeping the 10 commandments, nor that we are free from sin.

And if "all things are possible for them that believe" then why can't you answer my questions?

 

[Phoneman777]

Rev 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
Rev 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

Not you not me not the disciples, not the prophets, none of us are worthy because we are not capable of keeping the "law" as Christ did. Its all foolishness and vanity.

Rev_5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Rev_5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev_5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

God has a plan for the salvation of the Jews, it included them having the law than grace through Christ, and us receiving Grace to show Them, the Jews that Grace was teh better option. But so many foolish blinded men, thinking they could possibly even come close to achieving what Christ did, mock God but trying to be a Jew by keeping the law. Thank God for His patients if not we would all be blind and dead.

No more ,its done..

The blind leading the blind, so many christians are going to get a rude shock.

Ever hear of "the just shall live by faith"? That comes from the OLD TESTAMENT. The blood of bulls and goats has never taken away sin. The OT believers looked forward by faith to the Cross and evidenced that faith by adhering to the law. We look back to the Cross and evidence our faith by obedience as well. The idea that OT believers were saved by works and NT believers by grace is not Biblical.

 

[Phoneman777]

What false prophets??? Unlike you I don't base my conclusions on any denominational teaching! I am non-denominational. I don't have ANY contemprorary "prophets" whatsoever! I base my conclusions about this on scripture. For example:

"We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good."

So the first false prophet you are referring to here is the apostle Paul. If anyone hates to sin, but does so with the acknowledgement that he is weak (rather than a distorted view that grace permits him to sin) then he is acknowledging that "the law is good". That is my acknowledgment.

The second apostle you are calling a false prophet is John, since what he says is this:

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

In other words, if any Christian claims that they are able to keep the 10 commandments (which according to SDAs define sin, and that the rest of the Mosiac covenant has been done away with) then they have deceived themselves and do not have truth in them.

So where does that leave you??

What you are saying is this: we can keep the 10 commandments and therefore be sinless.

What John says is that if any self-deciever who makes such a claim is a liar!


I have never once made that claim, so if you are going to make comments about what I "believe" then USE QUOTES!!!

I guess I will just have to quote myself:


So that boots your false claim out the door!

I then go ahead to say:


Again, you provide NOTHING to address this, just as you provide NOTHING that proves your point.


I have already dealt with this. And when I did, I pointed out that what I meant by this is that we are not at liberty to act in a way that is inconsistent with the 10 commandments.

The fact that the grace we have in Christ provides concessions for sin, is not equivalent to saying that we are "at liberty" to sin. So once again, please be my guest and provide scriptural evidence that we have the abiltity to be sinless.

Upp, when Paul says we can do "all things through Christ which strengthens me", most people understand that "all things" means "all things" including resisting the devil every single time he comes to us with the temptation to sin. As soon as you accept that sin is a choice and Jesus stands ready to deliver you from temptation every time it comes around, then you will stop arguing this ridiculous idea their are "concessions" for sin. There is only forgiveness for sin, and that offered only to those who sincerely are sorry for committing it.

 

[Axehead]

Are we supposed to judge the brethren's obedience to Christ? Are we supposed to judge one another's walk?

Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Ok, you can judge me in these things:

1. If I am partaking in meats offered to idols.
2. Partaking of blood
3. Partaking of things strangled
4. Fornication

Other than that...

Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Wow, "or set at nought thy brother". <--- Or treat them with contempt!!!

Col_2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

 

[UppsalaDragby]

Upp, when Paul says we can do "all things through Christ which strengthens me", most people understand that "all things" means "all things" including resisting the devil every single time he comes to us with the temptation to sin.

I think that what "most people understand" is that Paul was referring to was all things that that the Spirit of Christ had commisioned him to do. So rather than trying to exploit a single verse to make it say whatever you want it to say, why don't you use your famous "ration and reasonal" capacity and explain why Paul didn't just fly around the planet like Superman and save the whole world in the wink of an eye ... like any other fictional character. God's desire was that all people be saved, but no one has ever carried out such a feat, just as no one has ever kept the 10 commandments. So let's keep this within reason!

You can violate scripture by trying to make it say what you want in a forum debate, but in the end we will all be held accountable to what it actually says.

As soon as you accept that sin is a choice and Jesus stands ready to deliver you from temptation every time it comes around, then you will stop arguing this ridiculous idea their are "concessions" for sin. There is only forgiveness for sin, and that offered only to those who sincerely are sorry for committing it.

Despite your baseless insinuations, I have neither cliamed that sin was not a choice, nor that Jesus is ready to deliver us from it. But who among men has EVER succeeded in always making the right choices?

You?

Ellen G White?

Who???

I pointed out two scriptures that prove that we fail to keep the standard of righteousness that God desires. The number of scriptures that you have provided that proves the opposite (big drumroll for the suprise here) is ZERO!! Yes, a big ZERO!

Pointing out one scripture that merely tells us that we are "strenghened", does not mean that we are able to keep the 10 commandments. And so, once again, I have to ask you:

What ever happened to "two or three witnesses"??

No answer from Phoneman? Gee... I guess I will just have to fall backwards in complete amazement!

 

[Phoneman777]

Are we supposed to judge the brethren's obedience to Christ? Are we supposed to judge one another's walk?

Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Ok, you can judge me in these things:

1. If I am partaking in meats offered to idols.
2. Partaking of blood
3. Partaking of things strangled
4. Fornication

Other than that...

Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Wow, "or set at nought thy brother". <--- Or treat them with contempt!!!

Col_2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

"Hate not thy brother in thine own heart: thou shalt in any wise REBUKE thy brother and not suffer SIN upon him." Leviticus 19:17 KJV.

Didja catch that? The Bible actually says that a man who fails to rebuke his brother and allows him to continue in sin hates...that's right...hate's his brother. You, MrH, and Upp argue that we need not keep the Ten Commandments, so by rebuking you all, you by Biblical definition have become recipients of my brotherly love.