Sabbath-Keeping

[JesusIsFaithful]

If anyone wishes to know when the church in the NT did their collection, it was on the first day of the week as this order was given for all the churches to do.

1 Corinthians 16:1Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. 2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Sabbath day keepers have often used Biblical references in the Book of Acts when christians were at Jewish synagogues as if that was when christians held their worship services, but it was not. That was when the disciples were doing outreach ministries to the Jews. Proof of that is just plain common sense because no one can hold a christian service in a Jewish synagogue today on the sabbath day.

So if you want a clue as to when the disciples broke bread in having communion...

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

So they broke bread on Sunday and Paul preached unto them till Monday, departing at midnight because sunset on Sunday was when Monday began in according to Jewish Biblical practises.

So the early churches were not holding morning services on the sabbath day when the disciples were out there in Jewish synagogues doing outreach ministries in the Book of Acts.

And the sun god has nothing to do with believers worshipping on Sunday when that was the day the Lord has risen on.

Mark 16:9Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

God did not change His schedule just because some pagans had chosen that day of the week to be their "sacred day". Imagine if the devil knew that, he would make every day of the year a sacred pagan day to keep God from fulfilling His promise before pagans ever had a holiday. God's plans from beforehand trumps pagan's holidays that is hardly being practised in regards to that pagan belief today to shun the first day of the week as being only belonging to them.

God created the first day of the week & every day of the week and therefore no amount of claims from pagans is going to make God's first day of the week as not being one of His day in creation which He has foreordained as being the day Jesus has risen on.

 

[Axehead]

Once again you willfully take verses out of context. Paul is speaking of such works as a means to salvation, not the fruit borne out of a love for Jesus Who is our Savior from sin and our Lord to be obeyed.

When will you turn from your rebellion to Christ and recognize that He did not say, "Depart from Me ye who practice the law" but "Depart from Me ye who practice lawlessness"??????

1Cor_2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

You did not answer my question. What is my penalty if I don't go to a religious building on Saturday? Is that the right schedule or is it Sunday? Anyway, whichever of those two days, Christ is going to be there, what will happen if I can't make it? Will Christ still be with me or is He busy at this other place?

 

[zeke25]

If anyone wishes to know when the church in the NT did their collection, it was on the first day of the week as this order was given for all the churches to do.

1 Corinthians 16:1Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. 2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Sabbath day keepers have often used Biblical references in the Book of Acts when christians were at Jewish synagogues as if that was when christians held their worship services, but it was not. That was when the disciples were doing outreach ministries to the Jews. Proof of that is just plain common sense because no one can hold a christian service in a Jewish synagogue today on the sabbath day.

So if you want a clue as to when the disciples broke bread in having communion...

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

So they broke bread on Sunday and Paul preached unto them till Monday, departing at midnight because sunset on Sunday was when Monday began in according to Jewish Biblical practises.

So the early churches were not holding morning services on the sabbath day when the disciples were out there in Jewish synagogues doing outreach ministries in the Book of Acts.

And the sun god has nothing to do with believers worshipping on Sunday when that was the day the Lord has risen on.

Mark 16:9Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

God did not change His schedule just because some pagans had chosen that day of the week to be their "sacred day". Imagine if the devil knew that, he would make every day of the year a sacred pagan day to keep God from fulfilling His promise before pagans ever had a holiday. God's plans from beforehand trumps pagan's holidays that is hardly being practised in regards to that pagan belief today to shun the first day of the week as being only belonging to them.

God created the first day of the week & every day of the week and therefore no amount of claims from pagans is going to make God's first day of the week as not being one of His day in creation which He has foreordained as being the day Jesus has risen on.

JesusIsFaithful,

I'm not advocating for sabbath keeping, as you can clearly see from the many posts I've made on this thread. However, it does not strengthen your argument to advocate that Christ rose from the dead on Sunday morning when all four gospels teach that He rose Saturday night. The translators did a hack job on Mark 16:9, in fact they became interpreters of this verse rather than translators, which is the worst possible infraction that a translator can commit.

From the Greek, the best translation of Mark 16:9 follows: "And having risen, early on the first of the week, He appeared first to Mary the Magdalene, from whom He had cast seven demons." So this verse is not at all teaching a Sunday resurrection. It explains that He had already risen and now on Sunday He was taking His first action. It could have also been worded this way: "And having risen, He appeared first to Mary the Magdalene early on the first of the week, from whom He had cast seven demons." This wording is a little awkward, however it more clearly shows what the phrase " early on the first of the week" applies to.

zeke25

 

[Phoneman777]

Actually phone man i only ever recall you making that claim, no one ever has said it is a licence to sin just as no one has ever made the claim that we are free to break teh law. But it seems like so many Love is left out of it all.

Christs commandments are to love God and to love our neighbour, you do these too and than you wont have any problems.

I quiet agree, now if only Jesus would remove my thorn from my side so I could be arrogant and proud and be able to say.

Look at me God i am not like all those other sinners"

Than I will be fill of pride and arrogance and worse than what I was when I came to Christ.

Christ Loves me for who I am and that I choose to let people see me as I am nothing Hidden, why because I once stood before my father in a dream, naked as the day I as born, so in this I could see, that I can not hide anything from Him. Nothing.

In all His Love

When will those who profess to love Jesus but choose their cherished sins over obeying Him ever learn? Just as the weight lifter who uses a spotter cannot brag about what he was unable to lift without the help of the spotter, so too Christians cannot brag when they overcome sin because it is only by the grace of God that they do! But, alas, the reason they will not learn is that they are focused on self and not on Jesus, so when they consider the prospect of overcoming a "thorn in the side" sin, all they see is their weakness to overcome it and the unwelcome prospect of not enjoying the sinful pleasure of it that they love so much, so one excuse after another is made to justify trying to hold onto Jesus with one hand and the sin they love so much with the other.

 

[Phoneman777]

If anyone wishes to know when the church in the NT did their collection, it was on the first day of the week as this order was given for all the churches to do.

1 Corinthians 16:1Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. 2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Sabbath day keepers have often used Biblical references in the Book of Acts when christians were at Jewish synagogues as if that was when christians held their worship services, but it was not. That was when the disciples were doing outreach ministries to the Jews. Proof of that is just plain common sense because no one can hold a christian service in a Jewish synagogue today on the sabbath day.

So if you want a clue as to when the disciples broke bread in having communion...

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

So they broke bread on Sunday and Paul preached unto them till Monday, departing at midnight because sunset on Sunday was when Monday began in according to Jewish Biblical practises.

So the early churches were not holding morning services on the sabbath day when the disciples were out there in Jewish synagogues doing outreach ministries in the Book of Acts.

And the sun god has nothing to do with believers worshipping on Sunday when that was the day the Lord has risen on.

Mark 16:9Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

God did not change His schedule just because some pagans had chosen that day of the week to be their "sacred day". Imagine if the devil knew that, he would make every day of the year a sacred pagan day to keep God from fulfilling His promise before pagans ever had a holiday. God's plans from beforehand trumps pagan's holidays that is hardly being practised in regards to that pagan belief today to shun the first day of the week as being only belonging to them.

God created the first day of the week & every day of the week and therefore no amount of claims from pagans is going to make God's first day of the week as not being one of His day in creation which He has foreordained as being the day Jesus has risen on.

No, there was no church collection on the first day of the week because there was no church service the first day of the week. The text says "lay by him in store", which means "lay it aside in storage (at HOME)", not in the collection plate. The custom of the Jews was to receive wages on the sixth day of work (Friday) which was the Preparation day, and then hurry home to prepare for the Sabbath. Only after the Sabbath (the first day of the week) would they concern themselves with paying bills, allotting money to this or that, etc. and it is on this non-sacred, 1st work day of the week that Paul was telling them to set aside some money for the suffering saints, so that when Paul swooped into town, he could grab the bags that were already set aside and speedily continue on to his destination.

Acts 20:7 was a post-Sabbath get together on the dark part of "Sunday, the first day of the week" (what we would call Saturday night) because Biblical days began at sunset. Therefore, they came together after Sabbath when the sun had set, and is why there were "many lights burning". They "broke bread" the first time (which begs the question: if this was a communion service, WHY did they break bread later the second time when Jesus' example of the Last Supper was to break it only once???), Paul began preaching and continued well into midnight , resurrected Eutycus (hello!...this miracle is the reason this story is in Scripture, not so that a new day of worship could be establshed), "broke bread" again which is simply a common Biblical expression for eating a meal together, and when the sun came up, did they have a Sunday morning service? No, Paul set out on a foot journey which lasted most of the rest of the day, proving that Paul consider Sunday to be anything but a "sacred day of rest and worship".

The last "first day" text you left out was the one in John 20:19 KJV where they were gathered on the "first day", but not for church. They were there "for fear of the Jews" and afraid that they were next to be killed. No one there even believed Jesus had resurrected, for when it was told them, they didn't believe and when Jesus came through the locked door and stood in the midst of them, they thought He was a spirit.

So, the three "first day" texts that are always appealed to for proof that Sunday is the new day of worship have been shown to teach nothing of the sort. If you have any specific questions or disagree, we can more closely examine these three "first day" texts. :)

 

[Phoneman777]

JesusIsFaithful,

I'm not advocating for sabbath keeping, as you can clearly see from the many posts I've made on this thread. However, it does not strengthen your argument to advocate that Christ rose from the dead on Sunday morning when all four gospels teach that He rose Saturday night. The translators did a hack job on Mark 16:9, in fact they became interpreters of this verse rather than translators, which is the worst possible infraction that a translator can commit.

From the Greek, the best translation of Mark 16:9 follows: "And having risen, early on the first of the week, He appeared first to Mary the Magdalene, from whom He had cast seven demons." So this verse is not at all teaching a Sunday resurrection. It explains that He had already risen and now on Sunday He was taking His first action. It could have also been worded this way: "And having risen, He appeared first to Mary the Magdalene early on the first of the week, from whom He had cast seven demons." This wording is a little awkward, however it more clearly shows what the phrase " early on the first of the week" applies to.

zeke25

What evidence suggests that Jesus didn't rise on the first day of the week? Remember, the first day began at sunset on what we would refer to as "Saturday night", so that means He had from then to almost all the way to the dawn of what we would call "Sunday morning" - the entire span of time taking place on the first day of the week.

 

[mjrhealth]

When will those who profess to love Jesus but choose their cherished sins over obeying Him ever learn? Just as the weight lifter who uses a spotter cannot brag about what he was unable to lift without the help of the spotter, so too Christians cannot brag when they overcome sin because it is only by the grace of God that they do! But, alas, the reason they will not learn is that they are focused on self and not on Jesus, so when they consider the prospect of overcoming a "thorn in the side" sin, all they see is their weakness to overcome it and the unwelcome prospect of not enjoying the sinful pleasure of it that they love so much, so one excuse after another is made to justify trying to hold onto Jesus with one hand and the sin they love so much with the other.

Mostly agree,

2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
2Co 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

I would rahter be humbled by my faults than be filled with pride by my achievements.

Now if what you say is true than this whole mess could end now. all it would take is the name of one person beside Christ who has kept the letter of teh law and not sinned, than we would have found the perfect religion filled with perfect people for us all to join.

Rom_3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

1Jn_1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

I guess we are at an impasse.

In all His Love

 

[Questor]

1Cor_2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

You did not answer my question. What is my penalty if I don't go to a religious building on Saturday? Is that the right schedule or is it Sunday? Anyway, whichever of those two days, Christ is going to be there, what will happen if I can't make it? Will Christ still be with me or is He busy at this other place?

There are no direct penalties for breaking a law you are not under covenant to keep. Gentiles are not under the Mosaic Covenant given at Sinai, nor are we yet under the New Covenant which is not yet in force, but under the Noahide Covenant plus the minimum details as given in Acts 15, as you well know. You also know that any Gentiles were expected to be hearing, and learning all that was read out to the people each Sabbath at the local Synagogue.

Acts 15:19-21 (CJB)
19 “Therefore, my opinion is that we should not put obstacles in the way of the Goyim who are turning to God.
20 Instead, we should write them a letter telling them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from fornication, from what is strangled and from blood.
21 For from the earliest times, Moshe has had in every city those who proclaim him, with his words being read in the synagogues every Shabbat.”

When you use the fact that you do not get penalized for doing what G-d wants as an excuse to avoid the remainder of what Yeshua taught, you are still being disobedient, and consequently G-d cannot bless you as He could if you were being obedient, any more than G-d could bless the Israelites when they did not keep all they had promised to do.

Everything in the New Testament, the Brit Chadashah, is interwoven with everything in the Old Testament, the Tanakh. Everything that Yeshua said and did is based on the Tanakh...on Torah. We cannot avoid it like it is something not for us. We are supposed to be like our Savior, who always sought to please G-d, not man. It is true that we are not bound by penalty under Torah. Is that a good excuse to not do what you know your G-d delights in?

As for going anywhere on Shabbat, that was not the commandment even to the Jews. Shabbat was for man to rest, and to set himself apart from all other men by so resting. People were supposed to stay in their homes, and enjoy what G-d had given them...freedom not to work, freedom to be with their families, and freedom to worship Him. Going to a Synagogue was not included in the Torah, but listening to the law being read now and again was, and so synagogue got built. The 'holy convocation' on Shabbat was to be held in your home, with your family, with friends. Shabbat was a weekly feast day, and still is. It is supposed to be a set apart time for you, and your family, to be in the presence of G-d together...enjoying Him, enjoying each other. Sure, it was also a day for giving offerings at the Temple, but no more than other days, except for the priests.

Keeping Shabbat on a Saturday outside of your home is to enable you to mix with Jews, and show them how well you walk under the guidance of the Ruach haKodosh, and thus incite them to be more observant of Torah, and even to be available to witness about Yeshua, the Jew's own Mashiach when asked how it was that you, a Gentile, became so G-dly.

The Great Commission is not just to get people saved! Salvation is only the first step. Yeshua was concerned about obedience to the Father, and acting in righteousness according to the Torah, because love is something you do, not feel. The Torah teaches to Love G-d, and to Love one’s neighbors. The first four commandments are about loving G-d…while the following six commandments are all of moral law…loving your neighbor.

Yeshua’s commanded that his followers obey his Father in order that we might keep the two summary commandments that Yeshua was constantly teaching...to love G-d and love your neighbor.

Matthew 22:37-40 (CJB)
37 He told him, “‘You are to love Adonai your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.’
38 This is the greatest and most important mitzvah.
39 And a second is similar to it, ‘You are to love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 All of the Torah and the Prophets are dependent on these two mitzvot.”

Matthew 28:16-20 (CJB)
16 So the eleven talmidim went to the hill in the Galil where Yeshua had told them to go.
17 When they saw him, they prostrated themselves before him; but some hesitated.
18 Yeshua came and talked with them. He said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Therefore, go and make people from all nations into talmidim, immersing them into the reality of the Father, the Son and the Ruach HaKodesh,
20 and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember! I will be with you always, yes, even until the end of the age.”

We are to learn to be like Yeshua, and to teach others to be like Yeshua, as we follow in Yeshua's footsteps.

The common practice within Christendom today is to evangelize so that we can get people “saved.” This is our empty concept of making disciples and is not the pattern of discipleship that we see modeled in Yeshua throughout the Gospels, nor is it what Yeshua told his Apostles to do, nor what we are supposed to do.
We are supposed to model ourselves of Yeshua, and become as much like him in all ways, even though he was a Jew and we are not.

The Hebrew word for disciple is תַלְמִיד (talmid – the plural is talmidim), from the root word למד (lamad), which means to learn. In other words, a disciple is a student, one who is continually learning.


A disciple is a life-long student of his rabbi. It is this which we are called to create. We are commissioned, “Go therefore and make disciples…”

We are not commissioned to go and make converts, believers or church-members. We are commissioned to make disciples.

But in order to “make” disciples, we must first become one. This is what the word “Christian” implies. It implies that we are replicas of “the Christ”; that we are fully able to transmit, communicate and enunciate the message of our rabbi through our teaching and our life practice.

Yeshua himself taught, “A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone when he is fully trained will be like his teacher” (Luke 6:40). With this in mind, let us take a look at the primary responsibilities of a disciple.

The four primary responsibilities of a Talmid is to:

To memorize the words of his teacher
To learn his teacher’s traditions and Scriptural interpretations
To imitate the actions of his teacher
To raise up more disciples after the pattern of his teacher

Our teacher is Yeshua. We are supposed to grow to be like him, even if we are Gentiles. There should be no difference between a Jew that believes in Yeshua, and a Gentile that believes in Yeshua except custom and dress. Everything that the Scriptures teach are for all of us, Torah included. We merely do not have the painful necessity of always doing every Mitzvah, every good deed exactly right, or be cursed. This is why Sha'ul taught not to take on the covenant obligation by getting circumcised.

The leniency allowed to any Believer in Yeshua is to not be cursed for not being perfect.

Yeshua kept the law in perfection for us, died for us, and we receive his redemption of us in exchange for our trust in him, and what he did. It is a gift from G-d, and freely given.

Keeping Shabbat for a Gentile is giving G-d something back that is not required of us by a covenant, but is something He actually desires, because we choose to do so.

 

[face2face]

I am saying that our inability to replace "the law" with "Old Covenant" in Romans 3:31 KJV should immediately arrest the attention of truth seekers who are willing to scrutinize the cherished idea that "the Old Covenant was the law and therefore the law passed away with the Old Covenant". To the contrary, this failure to replace the one with the other proves that "the law" was not swept away along with the "Old Covenant". Here is why:

A covenant is an agreement between two parties based upon mutual promises. The promises of God to bless and the promises of Israel to obey were not the Old Covenant "whole", but merely the "parts" (blessings and obedience) that made up that "whole".
The crux of the issue is that contrary to popular misconceptions, the disintegration of the "whole" does not demand the disintegrate the "parts" especially in light of the fact that God says He will write His laws on the hearts of New Covenant Christians. Since all agree that it is sin to break the Ten Commandments, we should expect that they are the laws that God writes on the hearts of New Covenant Christians.

The New Covenant "will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.

God did not look to His Old Covenant or Mosiac Law to redeem His people but to the Covenant He remembers to Abraham, Isaac & Jacob.

Teach me from this convenant without the Law and Mosiac and you will begin to see the Spirit behind that which has been taken away.

Dont split out the so called "good" and "bad" parts of the Mosiac Covenant as this will lead to legalism and dangerous traditions which shackle earnest believers such as yourself.

F2F

 

[Phoneman777]

1Cor_2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

You did not answer my question. What is my penalty if I don't go to a religious building on Saturday? Is that the right schedule or is it Sunday? Anyway, whichever of those two days, Christ is going to be there, what will happen if I can't make it? Will Christ still be with me or is He busy at this other place?

If you love Jesus, you will not "forsake the gathering" on the only day in the seven that God has ever sanctioned and blessed as the day of rest. The penalty for failing to love Jesus and thy neighbor, which is evidenced by lawlessness, is disqualification for eternal heavenly citizenship. In other words, "If ye love Me, keep My commandments." John 14:15 KJV It is my hope that we'll all be found in love with Jesus when He returns.

 

[Phoneman777]

Mostly agree,

2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
2Co 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

I would rahter be humbled by my faults than be filled with pride by my achievements.

Now if what you say is true than this whole mess could end now. all it would take is the name of one person beside Christ who has kept the letter of teh law and not sinned, than we would have found the perfect religion filled with perfect people for us all to join.

Rom_3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

1Jn_1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

I guess we are at an impasse.

In all His Love

Paul wasn't humbled by any faults, he was burdened by circumstances, some say a harassing demon, but I say that's ridiculous and that it was his dimmed eyesight.
God certainly doesn't mean for us to be daily humbled by willfully continuing in sin, but rather that we would boldly strive against the devil and gain the victory over sin by the power of the indwelling Jesus, after which we give all the praise to God as "unprofitable servants", having earned NOTHING by overcoming sin.

 

[Phoneman777]

The New Covenant "will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.

God did not look to His Old Covenant or Mosiac Law to redeem His people but to the Covenant He remembers to Abraham, Isaac & Jacob.

Teach me from this convenant without the Law and Mosiac and you will begin to see the Spirit behind that which has been taken away.

Dont split out the so called "good" and "bad" parts of the Mosiac Covenant as this will lead to legalism and dangerous traditions which shackle earnest believers such as yourself.

F2F

I strive (and fail sometimes) to keep His commandments because I love Him, not because of any shackles, just as I love to do things that my wife asks me to do because I love her.

"Legalism" generally is defined as "salvation by obedience", which the Bible says is impossible. It is not the issue today. What is the issue today is Presumption, which means God's grace is presumed upon to cover sin from which the offender refuses to turn. There is no such grace proffered for this kind of sin, for grace is only received in the heart of the truly sorrowful, repentant sinner, and though he fall seven times, yet if he rise up, he is just. Those who sin presumptuously never rise up, though Jesus pleads to them with outstretched hand lowered to help them. I agree that Mosaic Law is no more, but the Ten Commandments predate that covenant and will stand forever and ever, so we are all obligated to keep them if we love God and our neighbor, but circumcision and Feast day convocations ended at the Cross.

 

[mjrhealth]

Hi Phone man thanks for your honesty,

strive

Dictionarey says - to struggle vigourosuly, The LAw always requires work. Its just doing what it does.

But it seems Jesus was right about you seems you have a hard choice to make. You say you love Jesus, waht price are you willing to pay to have all of Him, and I mean all of Him.?

Mat 13:45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
Mat 13:46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

You have a choice to make, religion or Christ,

If you choose the latter I can guarantee,
1. You will very quickly find out who your real friends are
2. You will discover that spirit of religion - Jezebel _ can read about her in revelation - Like Pharoh she will not want to let you ga and will claw at you with bitterness and hatred to keep you.
3. You will die -The cross when following Christ is mandatory - it is not an option- you must leave all your baggage behind and not look back.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

The choice is yours it may cost you heaps but He is worth it all, He will always be with you.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

No man can help you now its your choice alone.

In all His Love

 

[mjrhealth]

Hi Phone man thanks for your honesty,

strive

Dictionarey says - to struggle vigourosuly, The LAw always requires work. Its just doing what it does.

But it seems Jesus was right about you seems you have a hard choice to make. You say you love Jesus, waht price are you willing to pay to have all of Him, and I mean all of Him.?

Mat 13:45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
Mat 13:46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

You have a choice to make, religion or Christ,

If you choose the latter I can guarantee,
1. You will very quickly find out who your real friends are
2. You will discover that spirit of religion - Jezebel _ can read about her in revelation - Like Pharoh she will not want to let you ga and will claw at you with bitterness and hatred to keep you.
3. You will die -The cross when following Christ is mandatory - it is not an option- you must leave all your baggage behind and not look back.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

The choice is yours it may cost you heaps but He is worth it all, He will always be with you.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

No man can help you now its your choice alone.

In all His Love

 

[face2face]

I strive (and fail sometimes) to keep His commandments because I love Him, not because of any shackles, just as I love to do things that my wife asks me to do because I love her.

"Legalism" generally is defined as "salvation by obedience", which the Bible says is impossible. It is not the issue today. What is the issue today is Presumption, which means God's grace is presumed upon to cover sin from which the offender refuses to turn. There is no such grace proffered for this kind of sin, for grace is only received in the heart of the truly sorrowful, repentant sinner, and though he fall seven times, yet if he rise up, he is just. Those who sin presumptuously never rise up, though Jesus pleads to them with outstretched hand lowered to help them. I agree that Mosaic Law is no more, but the Ten Commandments predate that covenant and will stand forever and ever, so we are all obligated to keep them if we love God and our neighbor, but circumcision and Feast day convocations ended at the Cross.

Phoneman,
Something in our recent chat caused you to open up and give of youself.... this will entreat others to do likewise.
I agree with what you have written above, I would qualify the Ten Commandments were superseeded with the commandments of the Lord because He reveals the true substance of those veiled commandments. "dont kill" ----> Dont even hold onto an evil thought which may lead killing your brother.

Once those handwritings condemned the Son of God their usefulness ended and were superseeded with the Spirit which gives light of life.

Keep striving for obedience and understanding.

May Jehovah bless you richly.
F2F

 

[Axehead]

Phoneman, if you love Jesus you will stop judging your brothers.

But you love your false doctrine, more. Your doctrine has captured your heart so you are no longer open to truth. You are no longer teachable. And since this doctrine of yours has become an idol in your heart you feel perfectly justified to judge the Body of Christ and have now become the arbiter of who does or who doesn't love Jesus.

I have said it before that the 10 commandments were a shadow. Other brothers are now saying that it is not enough to not commit adultery, but Jesus says don't even lust in your heart. It is not enough to not commit murder, but don't even hate someone in your heart. And it is certainly not enough to to have physical rest, but we must enter into Christ Himself as our Rest. You have perverted the simplicity of Christ.

 

[Phoneman777]

Hi Phone man thanks for your honesty,

Dictionarey says - to struggle vigourosuly, The LAw always requires work. Its just doing what it does.

But it seems Jesus was right about you seems you have a hard choice to make. You say you love Jesus, waht price are you willing to pay to have all of Him, and I mean all of Him.?

Mat 13:45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
Mat 13:46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

You have a choice to make, religion or Christ,

If you choose the latter I can guarantee,
1. You will very quickly find out who your real friends are
2. You will discover that spirit of religion - Jezebel _ can read about her in revelation - Like Pharoh she will not want to let you ga and will claw at you with bitterness and hatred to keep you.
3. You will die -The cross when following Christ is mandatory - it is not an option- you must leave all your baggage behind and not look back.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

The choice is yours it may cost you heaps but He is worth it all, He will always be with you.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

No man can help you now its your choice alone.

In all His Love

This is the very question I've been posing all along: Who shall receive all of Christ? Not just the SAVIOR Christ, but the LORD Christ? Everyone wants a SAVIOR Christ, but no one wants Him to Lord Himself over them and when it comes to ceasing from what caused His suffering and death on Calvary, it seems that those who are most vocal about Him as their SAVIOR absolutely DESPISE the idea of Him as their LORD, as evidenced by their refusal to overcome by His grace that which made necessary His suffering and death on Calvary.

 

[Phoneman777]

Phoneman,
Something in our recent chat caused you to open up and give of youself.... this will entreat others to do likewise.
I agree with what you have written above, I would qualify the Ten Commandments were superseeded with the commandments of the Lord because He reveals the true substance of those veiled commandments. "dont kill" ----> Dont even hold onto an evil thought which may lead killing your brother.

Once those handwritings condemned the Son of God their usefulness ended and were superseeded with the Spirit which gives light of life.

Keep striving for obedience and understanding.

May Jehovah bless you richly.
F2F

I'm amazed at the level of condescension here, as if I'm "coming around" to the thinking of those who claim that sin has no affect on the saving relationship that Christ provides. What I have said all along is that it is not perfection that is required, but a WILLINGNESS TO BE MADE PERFECT. In our walk with Christ, we sometimes may stumble, but swift repentance and resumption of our walk with God covers that stumbling. The kind of sin that the Bible says will condemn even those who profess to love Christ is the of PRESUMPTION aka the Unpardonable Sin - claiming forgiveness for sin from which a person refuses to turn. How in the world can a man receive forgiveness when he never asks for it in the first place, preferring rather to serve Christ only in words and not deeds? If any of us continue in breaking the Ten Commandments when we all here know full well that Christ wants us to obey them, then we shall be LOST.

 

[Phoneman777]

Phoneman, if you love Jesus you will stop judging your brothers.

But you love your false doctrine, more. Your doctrine has captured your heart so you are no longer open to truth. You are no longer teachable. And since this doctrine of yours has become an idol in your heart you feel perfectly justified to judge the Body of Christ and have now become the arbiter of who does or who doesn't love Jesus.

I have said it before that the 10 commandments were a shadow. Other brothers are now saying that it is not enough to not commit adultery, but Jesus says don't even lust in your heart. It is not enough to not commit murder, but don't even hate someone in your heart. And it is certainly not enough to to have physical rest, but we must enter into Christ Himself as our Rest. You have perverted the simplicity of Christ.

Axehead, you know nothing of the Scriptures nor of the power of God, for a blind man can see that (1) the it has ALWAYS has been and ALWAYS will be wrong to worship false gods, kill, steal, etc., but Passover and circumcision began at Sinai and ended at the Cross, and (2) the overcoming power of God is available to anyone who chooses to love Jesus more than the sin that nailed Him to the Cross.

 

[zeke25]

Passover and circumcision began at Sinai and ended at the Cross huh???

Circumcision began with Abraham (Gen 17:10). Passover began in the Land of Goshen, Friday Abib 14, when God changed Abib to be the 1st month of the year. Sinai was not in the picture during these two events and doctrines. And Adam was a Martian and Eve was from Venus and both were sabbath keepers, but they brought this teaching from other worlds after UFO's trucked it into our solar system. Give me a break.

What's the matter with everyone here? Does anyone remember when Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain placated Hitler before WWII? Or, what useless meetings there were between Churchill and Roosevelt and Hitler. Or, a useless pack between Russia and Hitler. Hitler played everyone and there wasn't a sincere bone in his body or a sane brain in his head. Are you now going to compliment the enemy of your souls? Are you really making the make believe progress that you think you are? How many of you have washed your hands of this and then you allow yourselves to be drawn back into it? And then F2F showed up on the scene with his chest puffed out and full of pride: "Oh, you guys have been doing this all wrong. Let me show you how it's done." This thread has become a farce with all the dogs chasing their tails. To my brothers here: Do you think maybe that you've gone too far and your actions are not that pleasing to your Lord and Savior anymore? I'm asking questions. I am not looking for you to answer them. Talk to God about it.

zeke25