Sabbath-Keeping

[ATP]

We can be confident in our salvation if we are surrendered to Jesus, which everyone will agree is truth.

Scripture disagrees with you. We can be confident by believing on what Jesus did on the cross for us. THIS is surrendering. How can one lose their salvation if Jesus paid the sin debt? Is your competence coming from your works or God's 2 Cor 3:5 NIV?

2 Cor 3:2-5 NIV You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everybody. 3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. 4 Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God.

1 John 5:13-14 NIV I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God:

Jer 17:7 NIV “But blessed is the one who trusts in the LORD, whose confidence is in him.

Eph 3:12 NIV In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

Heb 10:19-22 NIV Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.

Heb 10:23 NIV Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.

Heb 13:6 NIV So we say with confidence, “The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid. What can mere mortals do to me?”

1 John 3:21 NIV Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God

1 John 4:17 NIV This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus.

ATP, no one lied to us. No Bible writer, including John ever taught that confidence in Christ's salvation can accompany active rebellion to Christ.

If you believe you can lose your salvation then you cannot understand eternity. This is your weakness.

1 John 5:13-14 NIV I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God:

 

[ATP]

If ye love me, keep my commandments.

But God loved us first. If our salvation depended on us loving him all day long we would be in big trouble. I mean, just look at Israel's unbelief.

 

[Barrd]

But God loved us first. If our salvation depended on us loving him all day long we would be in big trouble. I mean, just look at Israel's unbelief.

Yes, God loved us first.
It our response to that love that makes us His disciples.

 

[ATP]

Yes, God loved us first.
It our response to that love that makes us His disciples.

I can agree on that.

 

[Phoneman777]

Scripture disagrees with you. We can be confident by believing on what Jesus did on the cross for us. THIS is surrendering. How can one lose their salvation if Jesus paid the sin debt? Is your competence coming from your works or God's 2 Cor 3:5 NIV?

2 Cor 3:2-5 NIV You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everybody. 3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. 4 Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God.

1 John 5:13-14 NIV I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God:

Jer 17:7 NIV “But blessed is the one who trusts in the LORD, whose confidence is in him.

Eph 3:12 NIV In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

Heb 10:19-22 NIV Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.

Heb 10:23 NIV Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.

Heb 13:6 NIV So we say with confidence, “The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid. What can mere mortals do to me?”

1 John 3:21 NIV Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God

1 John 4:17 NIV This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus.


If you believe you can lose your salvation then you cannot understand eternity. This is your weakness.

1 John 5:13-14 NIV I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God:

If merely "believing" is surrender, then why are the believing devils trembling? The lengths that the dead faith of OSAS will go to establish itself, including REDEFINING words like "surrender"

No, ATP, "surrender" means to "submit to another's authority" and those who refuse to give up their sin are not "surrendered" to Christ, they are indirectly surrendered to SATAN through their surrender to self.

 

[Phoneman777]

Scripture disagrees with you. We can be confident by believing on what Jesus did on the cross for us. THIS is surrendering. How can one lose their salvation if Jesus paid the sin debt? Is your competence coming from your works or God's 2 Cor 3:5 NIV?

2 Cor 3:2-5 NIV You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everybody. 3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. 4 Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God.

1 John 5:13-14 NIV I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God:

Jer 17:7 NIV “But blessed is the one who trusts in the LORD, whose confidence is in him.

Eph 3:12 NIV In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

Heb 10:19-22 NIV Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.

Heb 10:23 NIV Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.

Heb 13:6 NIV So we say with confidence, “The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid. What can mere mortals do to me?”

1 John 3:21 NIV Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God

1 John 4:17 NIV This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus.


If you believe you can lose your salvation then you cannot understand eternity. This is your weakness.

1 John 5:13-14 NIV I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God:

ATP, your problem is Cognitive Dissidence. You can't handle the unwelcome reality of conditional salvation based on total surrender of mind and body members to Christ so you default to the unbiblical doctrine of OSAS in the attempt to obtain through the dead faith of absentee obedience that which can only be obtained through the living faith of belief which produces works: Eternal Life.

 

[Barrd]

ATP, your problem is Cognitive Dissidence. You can't handle the unwelcome reality of conditional salvation based on total surrender of mind and body members to Christ so you default to the unbiblical doctrine of OSAS in the attempt to obtain through the dead faith of absentee obedience that which can only be obtained through the living faith of belief which produces works: Eternal Life.

Living faith is working faith.

 

[ATP]

If merely "believing" is surrender, then why are the believing devils trembling? The lengths that the dead faith of OSAS will go to establish itself, including REDEFINING words like "surrender"

No, ATP, "surrender" means to "submit to another's authority" and those who refuse to give up their sin are not "surrendered" to Christ, they are indirectly surrendered to SATAN through their surrender to self.

Well, justification only comes once. I'm simply quoting the Word of God. The Word of God says once I believe I have eternal life. If you think we can lose our salvation then you cannot understand eternity, and you do not understand the sin debt that Jesus already paid. Once you believe, you have eternal life. What are we believing in that gives us eternal life Phoneman.

The Word of God doesn't change, it's your belief in who Jesus Christ is that would have to change. Even John 6:47 NIV pretty much says it to your face..........

John 3:14-15 NIV Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

John 3:16 NIV For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 5:24 NIV “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:40 NIV For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

John 6:47 NIV I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.

Acts 13:46-48 NIV Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. 47 For this is what the Lord has commanded us: " 'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.' " 48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Tit 3:7 NIV so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

1 John 5:13-14 NIV I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God:

 

[Barrd]

John 12: 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day

To believe in Jesus Christ means to believe the words He has spoken. Here He tells us that by refusing to accept the words He has spoken is the same thing as rejecting Him...and those words will stand in judgment against the one who has refused to hear them "in the last day."

 

[ATP]

John 12: 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day

To believe in Jesus Christ means to believe the words He has spoken. Here He tells us that by refusing to accept the words He has spoken is the same thing as rejecting Him...and those words will stand in judgment against the one who has refused to hear them "in the last day."

That's right Barrd. But receiving His words vs twisting them into a pretzel is not the same sister.

John 3:36 NIV "Whoever puts his faith in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see that life, for God's wrath remains on him."

1 John 2:14 NIV I write to you, dear children, because you know the Father. I write to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God lives in you, and you have overcome the evil one.

 

[Phoneman777]

Living faith is working faith.

exactly!

 

[Phoneman777]

Well, justification only comes once. I'm simply quoting the Word of God. The Word of God says once I believe I have eternal life. If you think we can lose our salvation then you cannot understand eternity, and you do not understand the sin debt that Jesus already paid. Once you believe, you have eternal life. What are we believing in that gives us eternal life Phoneman.

The Word of God doesn't change, it's your belief in who Jesus Christ is that would have to change. Even John 6:47 NIV pretty much says it to your face..........

John 3:14-15 NIV Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

John 3:16 NIV For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 5:24 NIV “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:40 NIV For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

John 6:47 NIV I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.

Acts 13:46-48 NIV Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. 47 For this is what the Lord has commanded us: " 'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.' " 48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Tit 3:7 NIV so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

1 John 5:13-14 NIV I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God:

ATP, I cannot debate someone who believes that the word "surrender" means "to believe" and that dead faith - faith that is devoid of obedience - can obtain what the Bible says can only be obtained by living faith - faith that includes obedience: Eternal Life. The only faith you have is that God will save you no matter what words expose the content of your heart and what behavior exposes the content of your character - that's not the living faith that James speaks of.

 

[ATP]

ATP, I cannot debate someone who believes that the word "surrender" means "to believe" and that dead faith - faith that is devoid of obedience - can obtain what the Bible says can only be obtained by living faith - faith that includes obedience: Eternal Life. The only faith you have is that God will save you no matter what words expose the content of your heart and what behavior exposes the content of your character - that's not the living faith that James speaks of.

But you're preaching a false doctrine of sinless perfection. You believe that if a believer dies in his sin he goes to hell. That's false buddy. Once you believe you have eternal life.

 

[ATP]

You guys are seriously swimming upstream.

Jude 1:24-25 NIV To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

 

[Barrd]

That's right Barrd. But receiving His words vs twisting them into a pretzel is not the same sister.

John 3:36 NIV "Whoever puts his faith in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see that life, for God's wrath remains on him."
1 John 2:14 NIV I write to you, dear children, because you know the Father. I write to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God lives in you, and you have overcome the evil one.

Putting your faith in Jesus Christ means more than just believing in Him.
It means following Him.
No one said it would be easy. Jesus certainly did not say so.

Mar 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

Did this man believe in Jesus?

Mar 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

Looks like a big "yes" to me.

Well, did he obey the commandments, then?

Mar 10:19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
Mar 10:20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.

Evidently, he was obedient.

And Jesus did love him:

Mar 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him

But He still had a further requirement:

One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

Oh, dear. Jesus seemed to want this man to make a sacrifice...a real commitment. Did the man trust Jesus enough to do this for Him?

Mar 10:22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

I don't know about you, but this story brings tears to my eyes. To be that close...and then to let "stuff" get in the way.

But, but, but...he believed in Jesus, right? So, he will go to heaven, right?

Mar 10:23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
Mar 10:24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!

Evidently, there is a bit more to this salvation thing than just believing in Jesus. As Phoneman said, devils also believe, and tremble.
Now, I'm not "twisting" Jesus' words, here, I am copying them directly from my E-Sword, as I have been doing all through these threads.

Yes, those verses you keep posting are all there, just as you posted them...well, with some minor differences between your NIV and my own beloved KJV...but basically they say the same thing.
The problem is that we MUST consider ALL the verses in the Bible. And most especially those precious, precious words, red as the blood He shed for us on Calvary...

 

[Barrd]

But you're preaching a false doctrine of sinless perfection. You believe that if a believer dies in his sin he goes to hell. That's false buddy. Once you believe you have eternal life.

Don't you believe that Jesus would know that person's heart? I do. Jesus would know if that person's heart is toward Him...repentant, even if he hasn't said the words yet...or not turned toward Him...no intention of repenting even if he lives another hundred years.
Attitude does make a difference...

 

[Barrd]

You guys are seriously swimming upstream.

Jude 1:24-25 NIV To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

Yes, ATP....we are "swimming upstream". We are not following a crowd.
Just like Jesus.

 

[ATP]

Putting your faith in Jesus Christ means more than just believing in Him.
It means following Him.
No one said it would be easy. Jesus certainly did not say so.

Mar 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

Did this man believe in Jesus?

Mar 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

Looks like a big "yes" to me.

Well, did he obey the commandments, then?

Mar 10:19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
Mar 10:20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.

Evidently, he was obedient.

And Jesus did love him:

Mar 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him

But He still had a further requirement:

One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

Oh, dear. Jesus seemed to want this man to make a sacrifice...a real commitment. Did the man trust Jesus enough to do this for Him?

Mar 10:22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

I don't know about you, but this story brings tears to my eyes. To be that close...and then to let "stuff" get in the way.

But, but, but...he believed in Jesus, right? So, he will go to heaven, right?

Mar 10:23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
Mar 10:24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!

Evidently, there is a bit more to this salvation thing than just believing in Jesus. As Phoneman said, devils also believe, and tremble.
Now, I'm not "twisting" Jesus' words, here, I am copying them directly from my E-Sword, as I have been doing all through these threads.

Yes, those verses you keep posting are all there, just as you posted them...well, with some minor differences between your NIV and my own beloved KJV...but basically they say the same thing.
The problem is that we MUST consider ALL the verses in the Bible. And most especially those precious, precious words, red as the blood He shed for us on Calvary...

John 10:28-29 NIV I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

 

[ATP]

Yes, ATP....we are "swimming upstream". We are not following a crowd.
Just like Jesus.

Swimming upstream against the good news of the Gospel.

 

[Barrd]

John 10:28-29 NIV I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.