Sabbath

[John_8:32]

The stumbling block for Raeneske is the "Law of Christ". He doesn't understand what it is.

Jesus is the end of the Law for those who believe in Him.

You keep numbly repeating that Christ is the end of the law. I have show you from Strong’s, JFB and Barnes that the Greek word translated end does not mean end as we use it today…

G5056
τέλος
telos
tel'-os
From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid): - + continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare G5411.

Christ is the goal or point of aim the law, the result of the law. He was the conclusion of an act or state. The conclusion of living the law is Christ.

The law of course still exists if they want to put themselves under it or if a Christian allows himself to be "bewitched" as Paul puts it and then they will fall from grace. Because they did not receive the Spirit by the works of the law. They received the Spirit by faith if indeed they received the Spirit. I have always thought that Paul's selection of the word "bewitched" was a divine inspiration because you can show someone the simplicity of the God's word yet they act like they are under a spell and just cannot break free from it.

The Law that Believers are under is the Law of Christ. I will explain that further down. Actually, the Bible explains it.

OK, what is the law of Christ?

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

Christ says here that the Commandments are necessary and then He goes on to show He is speaking of the Ten Commandments. Who gave those Commandments?

Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Wasn’t the Father.

Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,
Exo 20:19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.

Who’s voice did they hear?

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Christ! He gave the Ten Commandments on Mt. Sinai. He also said…

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Not one jot or tittle will pass until all is fulfilled. No let me ask you a question, has all been fulfilled? Has Christ returned? Has Rev 20 taken place? How about the New Jerusalem, has it come down to earth? So have the laws passed?

Did Christ do away with the His own laws? Remember He gave them and then put people to death for not keeping them. So now, oh well, He just does away with them and sorry for your luck? What kind of a Christ do think He is? A Christ of serendipity? Of Caprice? He plainly says…

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Christ was born under the law and preached to those under the law. He pretty much showed the rich young ruler that though he thought he was keeping the commandments, he really was not and could not.

Matt_19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

This may have been the first time in this young man's life that he ever understood that he could not keep the law and that he was greedy and covetous. Jesus was demonstrating that the law cannot bring life and that the strength of sin is the law.

Jesus Christ had wisdom and understanding beyond the human level. What He did here was to reveal that this rich young ruler had a serious issue. First, Christ named the second great command, love your neighbor as yourself, denoted by the last six Commandments. The rich young ruler said I have kept those. Then Christ says sell all your possessions and follow me. He knew the young man had another god before God, his possessions. So now, to make everything OK, you would have Christ do away with the law and that way the young man is no longer guilty. There is no problem now with putting wealth before God because that law doesn’t exit anymore? Did Christ just excuse him saying, “That’s OK fellow, I’ll just do away with the law and you can worship your gold.”

Gal_3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

1Co_15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Regarding the rich young ruler:
Matt_19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

So, if thou wilt be perfect under the law,

And in the following, you are adding your own words in. That is not what Christ said, what He said was if you will be perfect (look up the word perfect and you will find it means complete) put God ahead of your wealth. He also was offering him a discipleship. The young man refused it because he would not put God ahead of His wealth. If the law was truly done away, it would not have mattered.

then you must be perfect in the law just like Jesus was and this is an impossibility. You cannot have law and grace at the same time. That is spiritual adultery. Read Romans 7:1-4. Hopefully, the realization that you cannot be perfect will cause you to fall upon the mercy of God, which is Jesus Christ and let His Spirit work in you rather than you working by the flesh to accomplish your checklist each day.

Again, a little word study is in order. Perfect here means complete…

G5046
τέλειος
teleios
tel'-i-os
From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.

I find it odd that one who would obey the 7th Commandment is committing spiritual adultery.

Lockstep? From Paul: Gal_4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

I can understand why you are having trouble with this passage, pulling verses out of context can cause that.

Gal 2:3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:
Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
Gal 2:5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
Gal 2:6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:
Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles
Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

Now refer back to Acts 15 which you want also pull out of context, what was the subject of Acts 15?

Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
Act 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
Act 15:3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
Act 15:4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

They were teaching that justification comes from keeping the law and not from Christ and the law they were concerned with was not “Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy”, it was circumcision.

The verse before is this: Rom_13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

And that is the entirety of Paul’s statement here? Again, lifting text to support your position is not proper…

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Love your neighbor is the summing of the last six Commandments, just as love God is the summation of the first four Commandments and these two great Commandments are summed up as the law of love.

Tell me something, if you love others with the love of God, will you commit adultery, kill, steal, bear false witness or covet?

That is correct, but if you do commit adultery, you have broken that law of love by violating the 7th Commandment. If there is no Commandment against adultery, then if your wife entertains the milkman, you have nothing to say because she did not break any law. Now if there is no law, there is no sin…

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

(gotta wait for someone else to post, I am exceeding the blocks, too long winded.) To be continued...

 

[mjrhealth]

Seek Jesus for understanding, stop trying to lean on you own. If you keep the Law you are on you own, not even Jesus can help you, as He gave you choice and He will not go against what you choose.

Seek Chrsit while He can be found, time is far to short,

In all His preccious Love

 

[John_8:32]

Of course not. And this is what Paul was explaining about how LOVE FULFILLS the LAW. Do you know how you can know that? Because in Romans_13:9, Paul goes on to say, "IF THERE BE ANY OTHER COMMANDMENT IT IS BRIEFLY COMPREHENDED IN THIS SAYING, NAMELY, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF". (bold for emphasis).

Rom_13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom_13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Are you beginning to see that Paul does not have checklist of commandments that he follows?

And you say this right after Paul tells us that loving your neighbor is simply the summation of the Commandments? He plainly tells here that keeping the last six Commandments is loving your neighbor.

He emphasizes (not really caring to write all the commandments out, because it is not necessary or important) that "

if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying" (which is not even one of the 10 commandments but encompasses six of them) that "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself".

And how does a summation of six points into one point, do away with the six points?

When you love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and you neighbor as yourself you are fulfilling the law. And you can only do this by the Spirit of Christ. All commandments are "briefly comprehended in this", the Law of Christ, which is the 2 commandments of loving God and loving your neighbor.

Now you are saying that the Commandments are summed up by the two great Commandments, yet you would have us to believe that they are all done away? In other words, if I put into a box all the points of Law that define love, then the box is really empty? It has no definition, no fine points on what love is? It is just a vague, ethereal statement that can be interpreted any which way at the whim of the individual?

Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Odd, I am the one that is supposed to be defending the Commandments, Statutes and Judgments, but thanks. I’ll never turn down help.

Yes, of course I have read Romans 6:23, but as this was a letter without chapter designations so please continue to read the letter.
So, the wages of sin is death.

Rom_7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Then Paul talks about how the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth. So, does the law have dominion over Christians? I want you to answer this question? I won't tell you the answer. You are welcome to read more of Romans 7 and if you do you will find the answer. I will check back to see what your answer is.

I think I will answer, difference is I will get the context and all the verses…

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

Show me where this does away with the 7th Commanment.

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Breaking the law brings forth death. Why?

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

And then

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

"We are delivered - We who are Christians. Delivered from it as a means of justification, as a source of sanctification, as a bondage to which we were subjected, and which tended to produce pain and death. It does not mean that Christians are freed from it as a rule of duty." – Albert Barnes

We are freed from its power to cause death.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Here Paul tells us plainly that the law defines sin. We do not know what is contrary to God except by His law. In other words, we can not determine good and evil for ourselves. That is what partaking of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is, determining right and wrong on our own.

Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

What slew Paul? What put him under the death penalty? Sin, not the law, but sin. Remember what sin is? The transgression of the law.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

And you just finished telling me how terrible the law is.

Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Are we under the law? Yes. When we disobey, break the law, we are guilty and under the death penalty. That is what Christ died for, to take our guilt, our sin away.

Here is the question again: Does the law have dominion over someone who has received Christ and is walking by the Spirit? (Yes or No)

Yes, absolutely yes. If you commit adultery, does the law have dominion over you? We just read in Rom 7 that it does. Rom 7:1-3 shows that.

Seek Jesus for understanding, stop trying to lean on you own. If you keep the Law you are on you own, not even Jesus can help you, as He gave you choice and He will not go against what you choose.

Seek Chrsit while He can be found, time is far to short,

In all His preccious Love

Just out of curiosity, why do you suppose that I think I can be justified by keeping the Law? I have never said that and in fact believe that 100 lifetimes of 100 years each of perfect obedience do not earn salvation, it is the free gift of God. The difference is, I believe God expects me to strive to not break His Law. God expects me to live up to a certain code of conduct, I should honor Him and love Him (first four) and I should love my neighbor as myself (by not stealing from him, lying to him, murdering him, lusting after his possessions, dallying wiht his wife and of course I should honr my parents).

Just out of curiosity, tell me what is wrong with the law? show me an example of why the Ten Commandments are bad and that I shouldn't keep them.

 

[Axehead]

And you say this right after Paul tells us that loving your neighbor is simply the summation of the Commandments? He plainly tells here that keeping the last six Commandments is loving your neighbor.

And how does a summation of six points into one point, do away with the six points?

If does not do away with the six points (or 620 points) at all. It fulfills them. Truly loving your neighbor, fulfills the six points. You don't need a checklist if you are led by the Spirit.

Now you are saying that the Commandments are summed up by the two great Commandments, yet you would have us to believe that they are all done away? In other words, if I put into a box all the points of Law that define love, then the box is really empty? It has no definition, no fine points on what love is? It is just a vague, ethereal statement that can be interpreted any which way at the whim of the individual?

Well, I said the Law is not done away. But if someone wants to boast in the Law instead of boasting in the Lord and if they want to put themselves under the Law then they are bound to obey the whole law. But you say there is no more penalty. You say that Christians must still keep the whole law, but if they break it, there is no penalty. So, what happens in your thinking when a Christian works on the Sabbath? For you, they are breaking the law. Is there a penalty? If so, what is it? I never heard of a law without a penalty.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

Do you know what death Paul is speaking of here in this analogy of the woman and the law?

Show me where this does away with the 7th Commanment. You are confused. I never said that the 7th commandment is done away with. I was responding to Raeneske who said the commandments are in heaven and I asked him if that were true then why is there a need for the 7th commandment to be in heaven.

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Do you understand what the operation of the Spirit is that makes one dead to the law by the body of Christ?

Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Breaking the law brings forth death. Why? Because without Christ there is no mercy or forgiveness. Death is the penalty of the law.

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

In Christ, not all sin is unto death now.
1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death.

And that is purely because of His mercy through the blood He shed for us.

1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. (1John 3:3)

These verses are not license for sin, by the way.

Do you say that not observing the Sabbath as you and Raeneske outline it, is a sin unto death? Because, that means if you have ever broken the Sabbath, you have sinned a sin unto death.

And then

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Yes, we serve God in the newness of the Spirit. We are adopted sons. We have a Father who will raise us and mature us and not kill us if we break a commandment that requires stoning. We have been brought into the liberty of Christ and no longer have to be concerned with knowing 620 laws intimately and if we break any of them that constitute death, we will die instantly. We have the Holy Spirit and He leads us in the paths of righteousness. The Holy Spirit teaches us how to love God and our neighbor. It is a process of maturing in Him and being conformed to the image of Christ. We don't serve God out of fear as Israel did in the OT, we serve Him out of love.

"We are delivered - We who are Christians. Delivered from it as a means of justification, as a source of sanctification, as a bondage to which we were subjected, and which tended to produce pain and death. It does not mean that Christians are freed from it as a rule of duty." – Albert Barnes To give Albert the benefit of the doubt, I would have to hear more from him to see where he is really going.

We are freed from its power to cause death.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Yes, please tell me what do we do if we sin. We know the law is not sin. The law is so strict that no one can keep it. It was given to us as a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ. We should be led to the mercy of Christ when we realize that we cannot please our schoolmaster (obey the Law).

And yet another way the Holy Spirit has found (through Paul) to tell us that we are not under the law. You do understand this, don't you?

Gal_3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal_3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Here Paul tells us plainly that the law defines sin. We do not know what is contrary to God except by His law.

Wrong, we know what is contrary to God by the Spirit of God dwelling inside us. This statement reveals a lot about how you think concerning the provision of the Holy Spirit. And now, I better understand why you are under the spell of religious flesh and the law and are having a difficult time understanding this.

In other words, we can not determine good and evil for ourselves. Yes, that is what Christ is for, who has been joined to our spirit. Do you understand now why we are no longer under the law? We are under Christ, instead.

That is what partaking of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is, determining right and wrong on our own. I answered this above. This is why we boast in Christ and not the law. We are justified by faith, not the law.

Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

What slew Paul? What put him under the death penalty? Sin, not the law, but sin. Remember what sin is? The transgression of the law.

1Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

And you just finished telling me how terrible the law is. No, the law is not terrible, just inadequate to save you.

Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Are we under the law? Yes. When we disobey, break the law, we are guilty and under the death penalty.

But if you died as you showed me in Romans 7:4, then we are free to marry another. Christ!! We no longer are justified by the works of the law but by faith in Christ. So, where is condemnation now when we sin. There is none. Yet, the Holy Spirit will lead us to repent and receive forgiveness. But, where is the condemnation and the death that we are suppose to incur from the law? Well, we are no longer under the law's administration. We are under Christ's mercy.

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

That is what Christ died for, to take our guilt, our sin away. BINGO!!! You got it, but you take a strange path to it. So, you do boast in Christ, don't you?

Yes, absolutely yes. If you commit adultery, does the law have dominion over you? We just read in Rom 7 that it does. Rom 7:1-3 shows that.

If the law had dominion over you when you committed adultery. Then, it requires you to be stoned to death. Do you agree? I thought you were getting it, but now you are slipping back.


Just out of curiosity, why do you suppose that I think I can be justified by keeping the Law? By your previous statement.

I have never said that and in fact believe that 100 lifetimes of 100 years each of perfect obedience do not earn salvation, it is the free gift of God. The difference is, I believe God expects me to strive to not break His Law. No, He doesn't. He wants you to obey Him, because He already knows that you cannot obey the law.

God expects me to live up to a certain code of conduct, I should honor Him and love Him (first four) and I should love my neighbor as myself (by not stealing from him, lying to him, murdering him, lusting after his possessions, dallying wiht his wife and of course I should honr my parents). I agree with all of that. And you need His Spirit to do that as you cannot do it on your own.

Just out of curiosity, tell me what is wrong with the law? show me an example of why the Ten Commandments are bad and that I shouldn't keep them.
There is nothing wrong with the law. It is holy. But it cannot save you. Only Christ can. You cannot have both. You cannot be married to the Law and to Christ. One negates the other. You no longer need a Schoolmaster because you have the Master, now. He will lead you to do much more that what your mind can understand about the law. He will show you much more about love and the deep motivations of your heart and how you are not loving Him or others than the law could ever show you. The Law cannot trump His Spirit. The Spirit is alive and knows your heart. The Law does not. Christ actually holds us to a more strict standard because He deals with the thoughts and intentions of the heart. You and the Law cannot do that.

 

[John_8:32]

Why do you and Raeneske think that those who are not under the law are sinning? (Oh yeah, because they are not observing the law). But do you realize that Christ still commands obedience for those who walk by the Spirit and not the flesh?

Why would you want to obey, you are freed from the Law. I believe you said that obeying the 7th Commandment was actually spiritual adultery. I cannot wrap my mind around that, but that is apparently what you believe.

1Pe_1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Help me out here, tell me, obedience to what?

Sin is anything that is not of God. Where was the Law when Adam sinned? The Law was the words out of God's mouth. Thou shalt not eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and the consequence came from God's mouth, too. "Or thou wilt surely die".

Thanks be to God that He is a little more definitive than you are. He tells us what sin is…

1Jn 3:4 Every one who practiseth sin doeth lawlessness also: and sin is the transgression of the law. – Bullinger’s

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid [Let it not be]. Nay, I had not known sin, if not by the law: for I had not recognized it as desire [of the old nature], but the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

I really don’t have to wonder if this is right or that is wrong, God tells us what is right and what is wrong. He did not leave it up to us to decide. (Remember the tree in the garden?)

So, if we are walking by the Spirit we will obey the Spirit. We don't follow a rule book. Don't worry, the Spirit won't miss anything and will lead you into all Truth and it is your responsibility to obey the Spirit. That is how you keep your relationship with the Lord, right.

How do you obey the truth? Through the Spirit.

1Pe_1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Jesus is the truth. He is ALL of the TRUTH and will communicate to each child of God regarding how they should walk. If Jesus tells you to pick some corn on the Sabbath then who would be so audacious to argue with Jesus and say He is wrong?

You mention an interesting point there, why did the Pharisees accuse the disciples of doing something unlawful? Show me where this violates any part of the Sabbath command. What their twisted thinking was that picking a handful of grain (it wasn’t corn, it was more likely barley but it could have been wheat) and rubbing it to free the kernels from the chaff, was threshing grain and therefore work on the Sabbath. And passing through someone’s field and picking grain was perfectly legal. This scripture has to do with obedience to men verses obedience to God.

Of course there is sin. Sin is anything that is not of God, not of Christ. Right?

Sin is disobedience to the voice of the Lord in one's heart and His voice will not contradict His written word. If a Believer is thinking of coveting in his heart, don't you think the Spirit of God is going to speak to him to correct him and lead him to put to death the deeds of the flesh?
Rom_8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Because we know that no one is justified by the deeds of the law.
Rom_3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Adam's sin was disobedience to the Word of God spoken to him.

Again, I am really glad I don’t have to figure out what sin is and what it is not. God defines sin, it is the breaking (transgressing) of His law. I know when I obey and when I don’t

Have you heard of the Law of Christ?
John_13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Is that all there is? Then that wipes out the command to love God.

We are to follow the Law of Christ. Love God and love your neighbor. All your motivations and actions should be governed by the Spirit who will lead you to love the Lord God and your neighbor as yourself. You establish the law by walking in love with faith towards God.
Gal_6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

If we sin, we are not put to death because we are not living by the Law but rather by Faith in Christ's propitiatory sacrifice and "we have an Advocate with the Father, Christ Jesus the righteous".

This has been my point the whole time, when we violate God’s holy Law, Christ is our advocate and offers His death in our stead. He did not abolish His Laws, He paid the penalty for us each time we break them. You do know who the I AM is who gave those laws to Moses and the people don’t you?

Joh 18:5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
Joh 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

You do understand that italicized words were not in the original, but added by the 1611 translators?

God will chasten and scourge His sons to correct them and get them back on the "highway of holiness". He will convict His sons and lead them back to the law. No, that is not right is it? He will lead His sons back to Himself where there is forgiveness and mercy in time of need.

There are plenty of warnings for the Church in the NT and you can even look at Jesus' letters to the 7 churches in Revelation. Here is one particular warning. The law of sowing and reaping.
Gal_6:7-8 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

And example of the Law of Christ: I love this exchange with a scribe who seemed to "get it". Jesus is taking two commands, one from the 10 commandments and 1 from the law of Moses and is fusing them together in what is known as the "Law of Christ".

Mar_12:28-34 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

Jesus says there is no other commandment greater the first two commandments. Not the first 2 of the 10 commandments, but the first 2 that Jesus thought were important.

You don’t seem to understand that the two great Commandments are summations of the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments are further detailed by the Judgements and then Statutes.

Jesus brought the OT LAW to completion and conclusion. All of the OT Law can be be placed in the two categories of LOVING GOD and LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOR. This cannot be disputed as it is explained many times in the NT.

Again, thanks for taking the side of the law, the Ten Commandments detail the two great Commandments which detail the great Commandment, the Law of Love.

Breaking this up to answer all of it.

 

[Axehead]

Why would you want to obey, you are freed from the Law. I believe you said that obeying the 7th Commandment was actually spiritual adultery. I cannot wrap my mind around that, but that is apparently what you believe.

Sorry if you misunderstood that. No, what I meant and what Paul means is that being married to the Law and to Christ is spiritual adultery.

Why obey? Because His love has been shed abroad in our hearts and we are new creatures. He has taken out our stony heart (hard heart) and replaced it with a heart of flesh (soft heart) and we want to obey and please the Lord. If this attitude is not in you, then you (meaning anyone) should "examine themselves" to see if indeed they are born-again and truly have the Spirit of God. Christianity cannot be lived in our own strength. It is impossible. One MUST have the indwelling Spirit of God.

2Co_13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Help me out here, tell me, obedience to what?

Sure, no problem. Obedience to Christ. Who was Adam expected to be obedient to? Who are we expected to be obedient to?

2Co_10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

You see, what pleases the Lord is written in our hearts and we are guided, directed and led by the Holy Spirit. The Law is incapable of having an intimate relationship with you and is only condemnatory. As an adopted Son, the Lord is encouraging, affirming, merciful and kind and He matures us through a mutual relationship of love. The Law is incapable of being this kind of a Father to us. The Law is not encouraging and affirming. Because of it's condemning nature which is "If you transgress one commandment you are guilty of them all". But Jesus fulfilled what we could not so now our faith is directed towards Him and what He did and not our own efforts at keeping the law. Yet, we go beyond the requirements of the law, but only in Christ.

Gal_5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Thanks be to God that He is a little more definitive than you are. He tells us what sin is…

1Jn 3:4 Every one who practiseth sin doeth lawlessness also: and sin is the transgression of the law. – Bullinger’s

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid [Let it not be]. Nay, I had not known sin, if not by the law: for I had not recognized it as desire [of the old nature], but the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

I really don’t have to wonder if this is right or that is wrong, God tells us what is right and what is wrong. He did not leave it up to us to decide. (Remember the tree in the garden?)

Yes, but one can follow the law and yet still be sinning in his heart. The Holy Spirit won't let us get away with that. This is where the Law falls short. It cannot "divide the joints and marrow of our hearts", like the living, Spirit-breathed Word of God, can.

You mention an interesting point there, why did the Pharisees accuse the disciples of doing something unlawful? Show me where this violates any part of the Sabbath command. What their twisted thinking was that picking a handful of grain (it wasn’t corn, it was more likely barley but it could have been wheat) and rubbing it to free the kernels from the chaff, was threshing grain and therefore work on the Sabbath. And passing through someone’s field and picking grain was perfectly legal. This scripture has to do with obedience to men verses obedience to God.

But if we are led by the Spirit and Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath, then the Sabbath Day is in subjection to Him and He is not in subjection to the Sabbath. So, again, if the Spirit of God leads us to do something on the Sabbath that men decry as a sin, who are we to obey God or man? And we know that the Spirit of God will never lead us into sin. But He will lead us to show mercy and kindness and to our brothers in Christ who are strict Sabbatarians, they may view our liberty in Christ as sinful and probably will.

Gal_2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

Gal_5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
1Pe_2:16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.

So, Paul and Peter understood that the Holy Spirit led believers will be led to serve one another and God and God does not differentiate between sacred work and secular work because our whole life now is "In Christ" and all that we do, we do for the glory of God. Our whole walk, each day is sacred and spiritual.

Jesus said that "But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work." (John_5:17)

And yet though He was always working (even on the Sabbath) He was always resting. This is what you and Raeneske seem to not grasp. That Christ is truly our Sabbath and since He is in us and we are in Him, we can be at complete spiritual rest (and should be) no matter what task (except sin) we are engaged in. Always working, yet always at rest.

We are called to Rest (true), and yet we are called to RUN (the race). What kind of REST are we called to? The Scriptures explain that we are called to rest from our own works.

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

When did God cease from His works? On the Sabbath, right? And now He is resting everyday. Are we only to cease from our works of righteousness (self-righteousness) on 1 day or all 7? Heb 4:10 is not talking about work as in what you do to earn money. It is talking about resting from your own works of righteousness. I am sure your favorite commentators will back that one up. You need to read Hebrews chapter 3 to understand that the Lord is talking about the deceitfulness of sin and unbelief which leads to self-justification and self-righteousness and this is something He wants us to be concerned about 7 days a week.

Again, I am really glad I don’t have to figure out what sin is and what it is not. God defines sin, it is the breaking (transgressing) of His law. I know when I obey and when I don’t
Is that all there is? Then that wipes out the command to love God.

This has been my point the whole time, when we violate God’s holy Law, Christ is our advocate and offers His death in our stead. He did not abolish His Laws, He paid the penalty for us each time we break them. You do know who the I AM is who gave those laws to Moses and the people don’t you?

John 18:5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
John 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

You do understand that italicized words were not in the original, but added by the 1611 translators?

You don’t seem to understand that the two great Commandments are summations of the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments are further detailed by the Judgements and then Statutes.

Again, thanks for taking the side of the law, the Ten Commandments detail the two great Commandments which detail the great Commandment, the Law of Love.

Breaking this up to answer all of it.

The Law is not merciful it is condemnatory. Jesus Christ is merciful and those who know Him go well beyond the letter of the law, fulfilling the true intent of it which is love God and love your neighbor.

To prove that the Law is condemnatory, Sabbatarians condemn those who don't observe the Sabbath as they do yet the Lord does not condemn. Which is funny, because they observe the Sabbath of their own making, not observing it the exact way that it was outlined in the OT. They are using the law to condemn others when they don't even follow it "to the letter", themselves. Sabbatarians don't even understand how the 4th commandment was fulfilled in Jesus Christ. The real stumbling block in all of this is Jesus Christ, not the law.

Do you know how the other 9 commandments have been fulfilled in Christ?

Do you know that the Law cannot purify your heart? Only the Spirit of God can purify your heart.

The Law of the Lord is beautiful when breathed upon by the Holy Spirit.
Psa_19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

1. Is someone who is in a 7 day a week hard labor camp in sin because they cannot kick back and relax on the Sabbath?
2. Is someone who has to work at their job on the Sabbath in sin because they don't disobey their employer and not show up for work?
3. Is someone in sin on the Sabbath because they sit around the table with their children and help them with their schoolwork?
4. Is someone in sin on the Sabbath because they have to travel back from Europe to the US in order to be at work the next day?
5. Is someone in sin on the Sabbath because they are working in their garden and pulling weeds and planting flowers?

I could go on and on. But do you see how the strict observance of the Law for those who are under the Law only sets them up to judge others based on what their two eyes observe?

These same people could be at complete rest in the Lord and enjoying His presence.

Axehead

 

[mjrhealth]

Again its the fine points that cause many to stumble.

Here Paul tells us plainly that the law defines sin. We do not know what is contrary to God except by His law. In other words, we can not determine good and evil for ourselves. That is what partaking of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is, determining right and wrong on our own.

Its the tree of knowledge of good and evil that is causing this long discussion. We are incapable of judging what is right and what is wrong. This is why the Holy Spirit was sent. to convict the word of sin.

Are we under the law? Yes. When we disobey, break the law, we are guilty and under the death penalty. That is what Christ died for, to take our guilt, our sin away.

No we are not under the law. the law judges us as sinners, As Paul wrote, sin has being condemned to the flesh. It is our flesh that sins.

Rom_8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

So if one is feeling guilty by not keeping the law. one is walking after the flesh not the spirit.

The law cannot condemn me. i no longer have to feel guilty if I mess up. the law has no hold on me, I do not have to go out of my way to try uphold it. it is done because Christ asks we walk in Love, Love chooses not to do these things.

That is correct, but if you do commit adultery, you have broken that law of love by violating the 7th Commandment. If there is no Commandment against adultery, then if your wife entertains the milkman, you have nothing to say because she did not break any law. Now if there is no law, there is no sin…

See again you have it all wrong, except for the last part.

Rom_8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Because when you walk in the Spirit there is no law. As i said when you walk after the flesh its the law that judges you, it can only find you guilty that what it does, and there is no payment for that only your life.

As for adultery, my wife did just such a thing, by your way of thinking I had every right in the world to stone her as being guilty , yet when Jesus asked me to judge them, all I could do was say they did no wrong. She is free from guilt the enemy has no witness, they have being forgiven. That is the difference between the "law" and "Love".

In all His merciful Love and Grace

 

[Raeneske]

I must say this, because this is being missed, I cannot sit back and watch this:

1) Romans 13:8-10 refers to the 10 Commandments. Not "620" (that number keeps changing) laws. Read it in context.

2) There is a seperation between the 10 Commandments, and the other laws. If you do not see that, then you will advocate the destruction of not just the laws which were nailed, but to everything.

3) The Spirit of the Law does not do away with any commandments. You keep the letter of "thou shalt not kill", but you also keep the Spirit by refusing to hate your brother. You are keeping the both, letter and spirit. The Sabbath was set apart for holy use. Refusing to keep that day Holy is refusing to keep the commandments.

4) Think of the two Great Commandments as a Checklist. Love thy neighbour as thyself can only be checked off, if you keep commandments 5-10. So, once you check off those commadments, then you can finally check off that you love your neighbour as yourself. You cannot check off that box, if you refused to keep #7, and decided to commit adultery. Likewise, Love God with all your heart, soul, and mind. How can you claim to love God, if you refuse to check off #4. If you try to check off the big box, you are lying, because you absolutely refuse to keep #4.

5) You are freed from the penalty of the law, not from observing the law. That is what Christ did. Now, this does not mean that you cannot be penalized. You can be. How so? By refusing to be obediant. That makes you a worker of iniquity, and Christ will tell you, "depart from me". To be freed from the penalty does not mean you could never be punshed again no matter what. It's like receiving grace in a court of law. You were speeding, but you pleaded for mercy. Congratulations, you got it. What are you freed from? That penalty, that fine. But do you still have to obey that law? Absolutely!. There is no doubt about that. Now say you broke that law again. It was an accident, you were deceived. You plead for mercy. You therefore have been freed from the penalty again. That is what it means to be freed from the law. Now, if after receiving grace from court twice (or how many other times) and you decide to start breaking the law repeatedly again and again, and again, you will not receive mercy. You have then willfully chosen to disobey the law, with no thought for remorse, with no thought for carefulness. If a Sabbath keeper chooses to give up the Sabbath, and breaks it continually, they will pay the price. They knew the Lord's will. Yet that didn't prevent them from working their iniquity.

6) Christ is the end of the law, meaning the final point. The law is literally a transcript of the Character of Jesus Christ. Look at Him. Don't fight it, look at Him. Did He keep the Sabbath? Yes. The way the Pharisees wanted to? No. The way it was meant to be understood? Yes. Did Christ set the Sabbath apart for Holy use? Yes, find Him in the Synagogues on the Sabbath. What about doing well on the Sabbath? Who defines doing well? Christ. He asked, to save a life, or to take a life. Christ was saving the multitudes, with the healings. This is the spiritual nature of the law, understanding that saving lives, ministering and loving, was in absolute harmony with the object of the Sabbath.

All your red questions can be answered by one part of a passage. "We ought to obey God rather than men".

Final Part: Yes, you won't be committing adultery in heaven, you will be keeping that commandment. Haven't you read, that if you look upon a woman with lust, you commit adultery in your heart? Shall we be looking upon women with lust in Heaven?

You cannot fight it. The 10 Commandments are found in Heaven. Last verse in Revelation 11.

 

[Axehead]

Hey there Rae,

Welcome back!!

I must say this, because this is being missed, I cannot sit back and watch this:

1) Romans 13:8-10 refers to the 10 Commandments. Not "620" (that number keeps changing) laws. Read it in context.

2) There is a seperation between the 10 Commandments, and the other laws. If you do not see that, then you will advocate the destruction of not just the laws which were nailed, but to everything.

What is the separation? And are the non-10 commandments in effect today?

3) The Spirit of the Law does not do away with any commandments. You keep the letter of "thou shalt not kill", but you also keep the Spirit by refusing to hate your brother.

But you don't keep the Spirit of the Sabbath, so you are speaking out of two sides of your mouth.

You are keeping the both, letter and spirit. The Sabbath was set apart for holy use. Refusing to keep that day Holy is refusing to keep the commandments.

Why do you differentiate between the spiritual meaning of the 4th commandment and the other 9?

4) Think of the two Great Commandments as a Checklist. Love thy neighbour as thyself can only be checked off, if you keep commandments 5-10. So, once you check off those commandments, then you can finally check off that you love your neighbour as yourself. You cannot check off that box, if you refused to keep #7, and decided to commit adultery. Likewise, Love God with all your heart, soul, and mind. How can you claim to love God, if you refuse to check off #4. If you try to check off the big box, you are lying, because you absolutely refuse to keep #4.

5) You are freed from the penalty of the law, not from observing the law.

There is a law without penalty? Never heard of such a thing. So, what happens to people that don't keep the Sabbath like you do, but keep all the other commandments? There's no penalty according to you.

That is what Christ did. Now, this does not mean that you cannot be penalized. You can be. How so? By refusing to be obedient. That makes you a worker of iniquity, and Christ will tell you, "depart from me".

Oops, I spoke too soon. So, there is a penalty, but in point 6 you said "you are freed from the penalty of the law".

To be freed from the penalty does not mean you could never be punished again no matter what. It's like receiving grace in a court of law. You were speeding, but you pleaded for mercy. Congratulations, you got it. What are you freed from? That penalty, that fine. But do you still have to obey that law? Absolutely!. There is no doubt about that.

So, a person in a 7 day a week slave labor camp will go to hell even if they believe in Jesus? I mean, the law is pretty strict, isn't it. It does not differentiate between people, does it?

Now say you broke that law again. It was an accident, you were deceived. You plead for mercy. You therefore have been freed from the penalty again. That is what it means to be freed from the law.

So, we have to keep getting freed from the law because the law keeps condemning us. I think I'm following you.

Now, if after receiving grace from court twice (or how many other times) and you decide to start breaking the law repeatedly again and again, and again, you will not receive mercy. You have then willfully chosen to disobey the law, with no thought for remorse, with no thought for carefulness.

So, any WILLFUL sinning does not bring forgiveness. Is that what you are saying? Or are you putting a number on how many times one is willfully sinning? Is it willfully sinning just once or 46 times? Please clarify how many times someone has to willfully sin before you turn your back on them and dis-fellowship them.

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

If a Sabbath keeper chooses to give up the Sabbath, and breaks it continually, they will pay the price. They knew the Lord's will. Yet that didn't prevent them from working their iniquity.

But what if they think the Lord's will is that He is their Sabbath Rest? Is there any price to pay now? Why should we take your word for it, when we can read what the Bible says?

6) Christ is the end of the law, meaning the final point. The law is literally a transcript of the Character of Jesus Christ. Look at Him. Don't fight it, look at Him. Did He keep the Sabbath? Yes. The way the Pharisees wanted to? No. The way it was meant to be understood? Yes. Did Christ set the Sabbath apart for Holy use? Yes, find Him in the Synagogues on the Sabbath. What about doing well on the Sabbath? Who defines doing well? Christ. He asked, to save a life, or to take a life. Christ was saving the multitudes, with the healings. This is the spiritual nature of the law, understanding that saving lives, ministering and loving, was in absolute harmony with the object of the Sabbath.

All your red questions can be answered by one part of a passage. "We ought to obey God rather than men".

Well, I agree. But, you should answer each question specifically. But you can't do that, can you? Then who are we to condemn others? And no, I do not feel one iota of guilt from Sabbatarians. Because, their concept of the law versus grace is warped.

Final Part: Yes, you won't be committing adultery in heaven, you will be keeping that commandment. Haven't you read, that if you look upon a woman with lust, you commit adultery in your heart? Shall we be looking upon women with lust in Heaven?

I won't be committing adultery in heaven not because the Law is there. Oh Raeneske, you are really funny. Is that what you think?

What about this?

1_Jn_3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Does Jesus need the Law in heaven to keep Himself from lusting? What do you think being conformed to the image of Christ means? The Law cannot conform anyone to Christ. That is an operation of the Spirit.

You cannot fight it. The 10 Commandments are found in Heaven. Last verse in Revelation 11.

Whose fighting the 10 commandments? We are fulfilling them all in Jesus Christ. Now answer those questions specifically instead of giving an obtuse answer.

Axehead

Again its the fine points that cause many to stumble.




Its the tree of knowledge of good and evil that is causing this long discussion. We are incapable of judging what is right and what is wrong. This is why the Holy Spirit was sent. to convict the word of sin.


No we are not under the law. the law judges us as sinners, As Paul wrote, sin has being condemned to the flesh. It is our flesh that sins.

Rom_8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

So if one is feeling guilty by not keeping the law. one is walking after the flesh not the spirit.

The law cannot condemn me. i no longer have to feel guilty if I mess up. the law has no hold on me, I do not have to go out of my way to try uphold it. it is done because Christ asks we walk in Love, Love chooses not to do these things.



See again you have it all wrong, except for the last part.

Rom_8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Because when you walk in the Spirit there is no law. As i said when you walk after the flesh its the law that judges you, it can only find you guilty that what it does, and there is no payment for that only your life.

As for adultery, my wife did just such a thing, by your way of thinking I had every right in the world to stone her as being guilty , yet when Jesus asked me to judge them, all I could do was say they did no wrong. She is free from guilt the enemy has no witness, they have being forgiven. That is the difference between the "law" and "Love".

In all His merciful Love and Grace

I am blessed by your testimony of His grace and love.

The mercy of the Lord endureth forever.

 

[Raeneske]

Axe,

Matthew 5:17-19 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Let's reason. Christ said not one jot or tittle should pass, or be done away with. Are the sacrifices done away with? Yes. Could our Lord have meant that law? No. Then something different must be being mentioned. Could it be circumcision? No, we know that has been done away with as well. So what could Christ mean?

Matthew 5:21-22 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

His later explanation proves what He is referring to. The 10 Commandments, are what have not been done away with. Christ showed that you are guilty of breaking the law even if you are angry with your brother without a reason. Does the letter of "Thou shalt not kill" still exist today? Yes. But does Christ expect more? Yes. He wants above and beyond the letter of thou shalt not kill. This does not mean, "Go ahead, break the letter". No, it means "Keep the letter, but also keep the Spirit". You therefore as a Christian keep the letter and the Spirit.

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

He's not saying, "Do not ever keep the letter", but rather, serve with a newness of understanding, which is the Spirit. In no way does this mean that you may break the letter, and literally kill somebody.

There is a misunderstanding on what the Spirit of the Sabbath is. Listen to the accusers, and then Christ's answer:

Matthew 12:10-13 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him. And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days. Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.

According to their legalistic rules, it was wrong to heal on the Sabbath. Christ showed them, they were wrong. We also know Christ said it is lawful to do well on the Sabbath Day. So what is the Spirit of the Sabbath? Doing well on that day. In other words, it's a day for holy use, and for rest, yes. But it is also a day for healing the sick, comforting widows, praying with elderly, etc. This is the spiritual keeping of the Sabbath.

Why? Who was the Sabbath made for? Mankind. It was meant to be a day of blessings, not a curse as the Pharisees made it. Healing mankind on this day is what it was designed around. Physical, Emotional, and Spiritual. Resting leads to restoration. There was no problem with the Lord restoring a withered hand. If you have known anyone to keep the Sabbath, they will continually tell you the day is a blessing. You are spiritually restored as well, people do more praying, reading, and studying on the Sabbath Day. Your spiritual mind is revitalized after a long week of conflict. Emotionally, you get your mind off your business, school, and secular work. When emotions can be brought to happiness, your spiritual life is a blessing.

As for a slave labour camp, if a Christian does not know about Sabbath keeping:

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

If they do know, they are to obey God rather than men. Any if any happen to find themselves in that position:

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

They are going to be okay, so long as they do not swerve from the path. A good example is Daniel, and his three friends. They refused to defile themselves with what they were being served: They were blessed. The 3 worthies refused to break Commandment #2: They were blessed. And Daniel refused not to worship his God: He was blessed. Christians will be brought into the same straight places. They should keep the Sabbath, instead of heeding an enemy or trying to carry out their worldly plans.

The number of times we are to forgive someone when they sin, or break the Sabbath:

Luke 17:3-4 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

Everytime they make a mistake, forgive them. Every single time. There is no human limit. However, if they refuse to repent for sinning:

Matthew 18:15-17 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

I understand when you say we shall be like Christ. But remember when I said, Christ is the end of the law, meaning the final point of the law? The law is a perfect transcript of the character of Jesus Christ. You therefore will be keeping the law in Heaven. You will have that character, which is reflected in Heaven. It is the foundation of God's government, all kingdoms have laws, whether you have adherents to that law, or not.

About your questions about being in sin, some of them are too vague. To see if you are right or wrong on any matter, you must know the details, the ins and the outs. However, if you presented them just to ask if someone should be obediant or not, "We ought to obey God, rather than men".

 

[mjrhealth]

Hi raemeske and John, you both lack one thing Revelation. You can sit here and quote scripture after scripture to try justify what is right, simple thing is bible knowlede is not revelation it comes from God alone, and the only way to get it, is to put down the bible and take it before Jesus. Now if you take it to your church and your church is 7th day, of course they wil agree with you thats what there church believes that doesnt mean that God agrees with them. So you see this whole post has become a bible arguement, is Christ divided, No, does God put stumbling blocks before men, No, yet you beleievfe what you read instead of taking things to God. The truth is in Christ, if you desire the truth, seek Him, ask Him, ask for revelation, this He will grant if you ask, if you do not ask how can you recieve.

Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened

In All His Love

 

[Raeneske]

Hi raemeske and John, you both lack one thing Revelation. You can sit here and quote scripture after scripture to try justify what is right, simple thing is bible knowlede is not revelation it comes from God alone, and the only way to get it, is to put down the bible and take it before Jesus. Now if you take it to your church and your church is 7th day, of course they wil agree with you thats what there church believes that doesnt mean that God agrees with them. So you see this whole post has become a bible arguement, is Christ divided, No, does God put stumbling blocks before men, No, yet you beleievfe what you read instead of taking things to God. The truth is in Christ, if you desire the truth, seek Him, ask Him, ask for revelation, this He will grant if you ask, if you do not ask how can you recieve.

Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened

In All His Love

I am aware, God gives the revelations. However, these revelations will be in harmony with scripture, and not contrary to it. However, this is not the point of the topic "Sabbath". Spoken Word seems like a topic this comment would fall under.

If a "revelation" comes that we don't have to keep any commandments, you can be sure that "revelation" is Satanic. Why? Because of scripture. We keep the 10 Commandments out of love for God. Accusing us of anything is simply that -- accusing.

P.S. - Axe, the answer I left you is on Page 11, the very last answer.

 

[Axehead]

Axe,

Matthew 5:17-19 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Let's reason. Christ said not one jot or tittle should pass, or be done away with.

Actually, that is not all He said.

Mat_5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Now, did Jesus Christ fulfill the Law or not? Everyone very easily says, YES, He fulfilled the law. Is that just something we thought up?

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
John_19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

There you go. I rest my case. Now do not accuse Jesus of not fulfilling the law. All things were accomplished and Jesus fulfilled the law. Therefore, it has passed away now for them that are in Christ. And Christ could take it along with all the Mosaic laws and nail it to the Cross.

If you want to put yourself back under the law, that's your business, but God is asking you not to. He is asking you to look to Christ and not your own efforts. Look to the One who fulfilled the law for you, so you can exercise faith towards God in Christ Jesus.

Are the sacrifices done away with? Yes.

Not if someone wants to keep doing them. They will exist in their imagination just like the Sabbath exists in your imagination.

Could our Lord have meant that law? No. Then something different must be being mentioned. Could it be circumcision? No, we know that has been done away with as well. So what could Christ mean?

Matthew 5:21-22 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

His later explanation proves what He is referring to. The 10 Commandments, are what have not been done away with. Christ showed that you are guilty of breaking the law even if you are angry with your brother without a reason. Does the letter of "Thou shalt not kill" still exist today? Yes. But does Christ expect more? Yes. He wants above and beyond the letter of thou shalt not kill. This does not mean, "Go ahead, break the letter". No, it means "Keep the letter, but also keep the Spirit". You therefore as a Christian keep the letter and the Spirit.

Yes, thank you, He filled up to the full (fulfilled) the Law. Except you don't see that about the Sabbath. That's ok. I am confident that someday you will understand.

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

He's not saying, "Do not ever keep the letter", but rather, serve with a newness of understanding, which is the Spirit. In no way does this mean that you may break the letter, and literally kill somebody.

No, it means that you cannot even hate someone and maintain relationship with the Lord. Under the law you could hate someone and yet act like you didn't and no one would know your heart (except God, of course). So, yes we are delivered from the letter of the law. The letter of the law means "exactly what is written, do not read anything else into it". You keep the Sabbath exactly as it is written (the letter of the law) but fail to see how the Lord fulfilled the 4th commandment.

There is a misunderstanding on what the Spirit of the Sabbath is. Listen to the accusers, and then Christ's answer:

Matthew 12:10-13 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him. And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days. Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.

Well, first of all, the Shepherd would have to be in his fields working, where the sheep were in order to see if one fell into a ditch. He would not be in his house. And he may have to walk quite a ways to get to the sheep. So, right here he is violating the sabbath by working and travelling on the sabbath. So, if you want to accept that then you must accept that an Engineer that works at NASA needs to be there on the Sabbath in order to perform his critical job while men are in space. How much more important are men than sheep. Isn't lawful for men to do well on the sabbath days?
Of course there are limitless examples of Christians that are needed at some particular jobs on the Sabbath because mens lives are at risk. I can think of Oil Platform jobs, Christians on Submarines or Navy Ships (where they work 7 days a week) and on and on and on. I became a Christian in the Navy and sometimes I had duty on the Sabbath. Jesus set me free from legalism and from observing the letter of the law when men's lives are in danger.

According to their legalistic rules, it was wrong to heal on the Sabbath. Christ showed them, they were wrong.

According to legalistic rules it was wrong to be in the field with the sheep. Jesus got them on that one. They didn't even question him about why the Shepherd was herding the sheep.

We also know Christ said it is lawful to do well on the Sabbath Day. So what is the Spirit of the Sabbath? Doing well on that day.

Are you now going to tell us what your definition of doing well is? So that we have to abide by your definition? I thought we walked by the Spirit and not by Raeneske?

In other words, it's a day for holy use, and for rest, yes. But it is also a day for healing the sick, comforting widows, praying with elderly, etc. This is the spiritual keeping of the Sabbath.


I have tried to tell you that all we do is holy, now. It is self-righteous and just flat wrong to say that only Christians who do religious activity are engaged in "holy" work. Whether we live or whether we die, we do all things for the Lord and to the Lord. I thought you would know that. It is a righteous thing in God's eyes for men to be responsible, feed their family and be a light, walking in love in the place where they work. We are living Epistles, being read of all men. Everything Jesus did, He did to the glory of God and everything we do, we are to do to the glory of God. You cannot compartmentalize your walk with Christ.

Why? Who was the Sabbath made for? Mankind.

And the Lord of the Sabbath was manifested for man and He is the Lord of the Sabbath and when He becomes your Lord, you then become subjected to Him, not days, and seasons, and holy days and sabbaths.

Col_2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

It was meant to be a day of blessings, not a curse as the Pharisees made it. Healing mankind on this day is what it was designed around. Physical, Emotional, and Spiritual. Resting leads to restoration.

Actually, those things you are mentioning are to take place every day. People are not in need of physical, emotional and spiritual healing just one day a week and God does limit His children to engaging in these activities one day a week.

There was no problem with the Lord restoring a withered hand. If you have known anyone to keep the Sabbath, they will continually tell you the day is a blessing. You are spiritually restored as well, people do more praying, reading, and studying on the Sabbath Day. Your spiritual mind is revitalized after a long week of conflict. Emotionally, you get your mind off your business, school, and secular work. When emotions can be brought to happiness, your spiritual life is a blessing.

Everyday is a blessing to me, because I get to walk with the Lord of the Sabbath, everyday. He keeps me at rest in my spirit and since I treat everyday alike, and walk by the Spirit, the Lord sometimes has me do more praying and reading on Tuesday or Friday.

As for a slave labour camp, if a Christian does not know about Sabbath keeping:

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

What if a Christian in a slave labor camp does know about the Sabbath but just can't observe it?

If they do know, they are to obey God rather than men. Any if any happen to find themselves in that position:

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

They are going to be okay, so long as they do not swerve from the path. A good example is Daniel, and his three friends. They refused to defile themselves with what they were being served: They were blessed. The 3 worthies refused to break Commandment #2: They were blessed. And Daniel refused not to worship his God: He was blessed. Christians will be brought into the same straight places. They should keep the Sabbath, instead of heeding an enemy or trying to carry out their worldly plans.

Ahhh, my dear Raeneske. I sure would like to talk to you when you get about 20 more years under your belt.
I understand when you say we shall be like Christ. But remember when I said, Christ is the end of the law, meaning the final point of the law? The law is a perfect transcript of the character of Jesus Christ. You therefore will be keeping the law in Heaven. You will have that character, which is reflected in Heaven. It is the foundation of God's government, all kingdoms have laws, whether you have adherents to that law, or not.

About your questions about being in sin, some of them are too vague. To see if you are right or wrong on any matter, you must know the details, the ins and the outs. However, if you presented them just to ask if someone should be obediant or not, "We ought to obey God, rather than men".

Whoa there, cowboy!!

"The law is a perfect transcript of the character of Jesus Christ"? I know Christ can justify me. Can the law justify me?

Rom_3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom_3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

If I was under the law, sin would have dominion over me.
Rom_6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

The law only has dominion over you as long as you liveth. In udder woids, if you die in Christ and are raised in newness of life, you are free from the law. Rom_7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Anyway, to get back on track. The Spirit of Christ is much more than the Law. The Law worketh wrath, but grace and mercy come through Christ. There is no mercy with the Law. If you break the law, you pay the penalty.

Christ gives me life, the Law cannot give life.
Gal_3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. (read the previous verse. The schoolmaster is the law).

Here is another way that Paul says it. Do you not understand this simple, straightforward scripture?
Gal_5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

And I will leave you with this wonderful verse:
Php_3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Now, look if you enjoy one day a week off (personally I think a person should take about 3-4 days off if they can get it), I am not trying to stop you. More power to you, but to teach and preach that people are in sin if the day off they take during the week is not Saturday (I think that is your Sabbath, isn't it?) or Sunday, not sure what day is your Sabbath and then if they do take the "right" day off, to then further scrutinize them to see "HOW" they are taking it off is just complete legalism. I don't now how else to put it.

1Ti_1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
The only righteous men that I know of now are people that have faith in Christ, because righteousness is not imputed any other way or from anyone else.

We are made righteous by faith, not works.
Heb_11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Rom_5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Well, I am starting to wander and get off on a tangent. Let me close with this.

By faith Raeneske offered up the sacrifices of praise and honor to Christ by which he obtained witness that he was righteous.
Heb_13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.

All the best to my friend,

Thanks for coming back, I didn't think you would be able to stay away from such an interesting discussion.

Axehead

Sorry, I had to put some of my statements within your quotes, otherwise I would have too many quotes.

 

[Raeneske]

Actually, that is not all He said.

Mat_5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Now, did Jesus Christ fulfill the Law or not? Everyone very easily says, YES, He fulfilled the law. Is that just something we thought up?

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
John_19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

There you go. I rest my case. Now do not accuse Jesus of not fulfilling the law. All things were accomplished and Jesus fulfilled the law. Therefore, it has passed away now for them that are in Christ. And Christ could take it along with all the Mosaic laws and nail it to the Cross.

If you want to put yourself back under the law, that's your business, but God is asking you not to. He is asking you to look to Christ and not your own efforts. Look to the One who fulfilled the law for you, so you can exercise faith towards God in Christ Jesus.

Not if someone wants to keep doing them. They will exist in their imagination just like the Sabbath exists in your imagination.

Yes, thank you, He filled up to the full (fulfilled) the Law. Except you don't see that about the Sabbath. That's ok. I am confident that someday you will understand.

No, it means that you cannot even hate someone and maintain relationship with the Lord. Under the law you could hate someone and yet act like you didn't and no one would know your heart (except God, of course). So, yes we are delivered from the letter of the law. The letter of the law means "exactly what is written, do not read anything else into it". You keep the Sabbath exactly as it is written (the letter of the law) but fail to see how the Lord fulfilled the 4th commandment.

Well, first of all, the Shepherd would have to be in his fields working, where the sheep were in order to see if one fell into a ditch. He would not be in his house. And he may have to walk quite a ways to get to the sheep. So, right here he is violating the sabbath by working and travelling on the sabbath. So, if you want to accept that then you must accept that an Engineer that works at NASA needs to be there on the Sabbath in order to perform his critical job while men are in space. How much more important are men than sheep. Isn't lawful for men to do well on the sabbath days?
Of course there are limitless examples of Christians that are needed at some particular jobs on the Sabbath because mens lives are at risk. I can think of Oil Platform jobs, Christians on Submarines or Navy Ships (where they work 7 days a week) and on and on and on. I became a Christian in the Navy and sometimes I had duty on the Sabbath. Jesus set me free from legalism and from observing the letter of the law when men's lives are in danger.

According to legalistic rules it was wrong to be in the field with the sheep. Jesus got them on that one. They didn't even question him about why the Shepherd was herding the sheep.

Are you now going to tell us what your definition of doing well is? So that we have to abide by your definition? I thought we walked by the Spirit and not by Raeneske?


"The law is a perfect transcript of the character of Jesus Christ"? I know Christ can justify me. Can the law justify me?

Rom_3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom_3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

If I was under the law, sin would have dominion over me.
Rom_6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

The law only has dominion over you as long as you liveth. In udder woids, if you die in Christ and are raised in newness of life, you are free from the law. Rom_7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Anyway, to get back on track. The Spirit of Christ is much more than the Law. The Law worketh wrath, but grace and mercy come through Christ. There is no mercy with the Law. If you break the law, you pay the penalty.

Christ gives me life, the Law cannot give life.
Gal_3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. (read the previous verse. The schoolmaster is the law).

Here is another way that Paul says it. Do you not understand this simple, straightforward scripture?
Gal_5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

And I will leave you with this wonderful verse:
Php_3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Now, look if you enjoy one day a week off (personally I think a person should take about 3-4 days off if they can get it), I am not trying to stop you. More power to you, but to teach and preach that people are in sin if the day off they take during the week is not Saturday (I think that is your Sabbath, isn't it?) or Sunday, not sure what day is your Sabbath and then if they do take the "right" day off, to then further scrutinize them to see "HOW" they are taking it off is just complete legalism. I don't now how else to put it.

1Ti_1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
The only righteous men that I know of now are people that have faith in Christ, because righteousness is not imputed any other way or from anyone else.

We are made righteous by faith, not works.
Heb_11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Rom_5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Well, I am starting to wander and get off on a tangent. Let me close with this.

By faith Raeneske offered up the sacrifices of praise and honor to Christ by which he obtained witness that he was righteous.
Heb_13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.

All the best to my friend,

Thanks for coming back, I didn't think you would be able to stay away from such an interesting discussion.

Axehead

Sorry, I had to put some of my statements within your quotes, otherwise I would have too many quotes.

You also missed a key point as well Axe. All has not been fulfilled. Earlier in that verse it states, "Til heaven and earth pass". Has this happened yet? No. So, is the law gone? No. Is this referring to the 10 Commandments, or the ceremonial laws? You would see, it menas the 10 Commandments, as Christ continues.

Where does it say "I thirst" in the 10 Commandment law? I am not denying Christ fulfilled both the 10 Commandment law, and the ceremonial law. However, what I will deny, is what you are saying it's talking about. Christ made it clear, as He went on to explain.

Again, not everything has been fulfilled. All of Revelation has not happened, heaven and earth has not passed away, and Christ's Second Coming hasn't happened yet, which was also predicted by the prophets. So, has everything literally finished, or are we still on earth in this battle? Still on earth.

Axe, whether someone wants to keep observing the sacrifices or not, doesn't change the fact that Christ did away with them. Christ still did away with them, whether they wanted to do that or not.

Christ did fulfill the 10 Commandments. He kept them and made them honourable.

How can I say, "Keep the letter & the Spirit" and you say "thankyou", when you refuse to even keep the letter and spirit of the #4th Commandment? Does it say to rest on the 7th Day? Yes. Why aren't you resting? Does the commandment tell you not to kill? You refuse to literally kill, do you not? Okay so question. Is this not an inconsistency? If it means literally, do not kill, then it also literally means rest on the 7th Day. This is huge inconsistency. When you keep the spirit of the law you will ALSO BE KEEPING THE LETTER. To keep the Spirit of the law is to do both. If you won't even hate a man, will you kill a man? If you won't even look at a woman with lust, will you literally commit adultary? If you refuse to disrespect your parents in your heart, will you refuse to do it outwardly also? Yes. If you keep the Spirit, you will also keep the letter. Paul was saying that we should serve in a newness of spirit, because we have a broader, deeper understanding of the 10 Commandments.

Yes, you may not hate someone and maintane a relationship with the Lord. But does this mean forget the letter, go out and keep murdering people, and you can maintane a relationship with the Lord? Of course not. Maintain consistency.

I don't like your NASA reasoning whatsoever. Nowhere does it say that the man was working the fields. If they were leading the sheep to water, would they be in sin? No. Or how about this, if the sheep just was wandering of it's own, and fell into a ditch? So no, we do not have a man working and traveling on the Sabbath.

Yes, you can save a life on the Sabbath. And why is that? Because to do that is to work in harmony with the object of the Sabbath. I explained that in my previous post.

Axe, I quoted scripture where you said, "I say". Christ himself said it is lawful to do well on the Sabbath. What I did, was just state what He said. No quotes, no verses, just quoted it. I mean no disrespect, but could you not discern that?

Okay, you have a misunderstanding on what is holy here. Axe, were there not Jews in the past who were holy (through the Lord)? Did they not repent of sins, did the Lord not promise them to cleanse them from all unrighteousness, they would not wear garments of Scarlet, but garments of snow? Yes. But were they still required to keep the Sabbath the way God said to? Yes. They were subject to the Lord as well. Sure, in Christ's day they didn't understand some of the truths which are made plain now. But this doesn't make them any less the Lord's.

I stated before, people cannot do all that which the Sabbath blesses them with. If you work all the time, can you honestly spend all the time you want in prayer, or reading scripture? Of course not. Do you really go visit the fatherless, and the widows, the tried and tempted, the weak the despondent, and pray with them, every single day? I'm not saying can you, I'm saying, DO you? No, that's almost impractical for someone who would work all the time. Can they on the Sabbath? Yes. Can they spend MORE time praying than USUAL? YES. Can they spend MORE time in the scriptures than USUAL? Yes.

Again, no one is denying that every day is a blessing. Everyday is in fact a blessing. But what other day do you have to rest, and spend more time with prayer and studies, if you are working "all the time"? I keep the Sabbath. And I have no problem praying every single day, reading every single day, etc. However, on the Sabbath? I can do much more than I can on any other day of the week. The MORE the BETTER. That's what makes the Sabbath such a BLESSING.

Colossians 2:16 is out of context, I again urge you to read the 23rd Chapter of Leviticus. I say this quite a lot, but it's never been acknowledged. You'll see that Moses shows the split and the difference between those annual sabbaths and the 7th Day Sabbath.

"Knows, but just can't observe it"

Ummm... Yes they can. If my parents wanted me to hang out, or party (family party, nothing ridiculous), or rake leaves for that matter, and they told me to, I have to tell them NO. If my school tells me I have to do something on Sabbath I tell them NO. If a job tells me to work on that day, I tell them no. See how that works? We are obediant to God, rather than men. Likewise, if cruel oppresion came (no really if, but a matter of when) to America, and someone was subjected to slave labour, they can say NO. "What if they beat them?" Are they not suffering for Christ's sake? Were not the Apostles beaten for not obeying the commandments of others? Were not the 3 worthies thrown into fire? In other words Obey the Lord, at all costs. Understand?

Axe, did you read what I said? I said it is a transcript of the Lord's character, I never said the law could justify you. It cannot justify you, but what does it do? Rather what is Christ and the law? Is not Christ the end of the law? Christ is the final object of the 10 Commandments, to keep all ten is to be Christlike. In just the letter? No, rather in letter and spirit.

I have explained what it means to be under the law. But you seem to take it a step further, which is to my advantage. Yes, if you are under the law, sin has dominion over you. Why? Because to transgress that law is sin. So, Christ breaks that dominion, and frees you from receiving the wages of transgressing that law (death). So then. So now you are not under the law. So, because we are under grace, and not the law, are we allowed to break the law? NOPE. And that's what Romans 6:14-15 says.

So what makes us rightoues, the law? No, rather Christ makes us righteous. So, if you see someone who won't even look at a woman with lust, who is making that man righteous? Christ. It's not that man's own righteousness, and that law isn't doing it, but Christ is making him righteous. Or if a man refuses to actually commit adultary, who is making that man rightoues? Christ. Are the deeds of the law ever going to justify that man? Nope. Christ does that. So why does that man even keep the law? Because Christ is in him, and prompts that man to be obediant to God. This is the same thing with every single commandment. So when someone is keeping the Sabbath, why does it always come back to that annoying accusation, that we are trying to justify ourselves? Seriously, I don't understand why anyone keeps thinking that. It's like apparently Sabbath Keeper = Self Justifier. Hey, guess whose the accuser of brethern? Satan. So everytime someone comes along with that, whose work can we know they are doing? Satan's. This accusation needs to stop, because again that's all it is -- an accusation.

Now, what's not legalism, is to say "How". If you give them no freedom, that's legalism. Example, I force you to do every single thing that I do on Sabbath, and only that will work. No, maintane your own individuality. However, there are things which you cannot do. This is plain, the Lord said not to do them. Fighting against that, is fighting against the Lord. Not me. I didn't write the Bible.

I came back, because part of me cannot stand some things. I want some people to get it. It's not that I think I can do it better than someone like John 8:32, it's that I see something that I know I can understand and comment on. We really do need to end this though. I cannot see this going any further. If you have chosen not to move, and I have chosen not to move, and John has chosen, and mjrhealth, then what are we doing? I mean no disrespect but would not a continued messages by us be a waste of time? Are there not more souls to labour for in the Lord's vineyard?

Axe, keep your eyes open about all which I have shared with you. You know as it's written John 14:29. Something shall come to pass, which has been preached for a while. Do not be caught on the wrong side when it comes to pass. Please just take the blessing.

 

[mjrhealth]

Again got it all backwards. The scriptures have to line up wuth God not God with the scriptures, God came first the writen word later. Its no wonder christians are so bewildered.

In all His Love

No one can help you. not even Jesus can go against your will, But you have denied His free Gift. There is no grace for those who are under the law.

In All His love

Thnaks Axehed this post has hit a dead end, you are well informed.

 

[Raeneske]

Again got it all backwards. The scriptures have to line up wuth God not God with the scriptures, God came first the writen word later. Its no wonder christians are so bewildered.

In all His Love

The scriptures do line up with God. But Isaiah 8:20 is sure, if a spirit comes claiming it's the holy spirit, and speaks against the word of God, do you say "Well this spirit is obviously from God, I just don't understand the Bible" or do you say, "Let me test this spirit, according to the Good Word of God"? The Holy Spirit isn't going to point you away from the scriptures. If you are being pointed away, that they don't maintane surpremacy, then something is wrong. Remember, even Jesus used scripture, as supreme against Satan. Everything that came His way, He met with, "it is written".

So, if the spirit contradicts the Word of God, why on earth would you trust that spirit? Simply because it says, "I am of God" does not mean that spirit is of God. Remember, Satan is transformed into an angel of light. How easy is it for him to present himself as a holy one? So what do you do? Believe that spirit which clearly contradicts the word, or do you believe the word over that spirit?

 

[mjrhealth]

Hi Raenske, i have never in my entire life had a spirirt claim to be God, if it did I would not believe it. Funny thing is all I have ever being taught is in the bible . Odd considering how i see the bible. Mind you satan loves teh bible, for so many refuse to take thinhgs to Christ, refuse to believe the Holy Spirit and so are kept in bondage to so many things. keeps teh enemy happy. yes teh devil loves people in church they are harmless to Him. Try wlking with Jesus for a short time and see what happens.

In All His Love

 

[Axehead]

Hi Raenske, i have never in my entire life had a spirirt claim to be God, if it did I would not believe it. Funny thing is all I have ever being taught is in the bible . Odd considering how i see the bible. Mind you satan loves teh bible, for so many refuse to take thinhgs to Christ, refuse to believe the Holy Spirit and so are kept in bondage to so many things. keeps teh enemy happy. yes teh devil loves people in church they are harmless to Him. Try wlking with Jesus for a short time and see what happens.

In All His Love

mjrhealth is giving all of us some good advice, Raeneske.

Well, I had more scriptures, mostly from Galatians about the difference between a servant and a son, and the analogy that Paul gave about the son of the bondwoman and the son of the freewoman, but I just went ahead and deleted all of it. I am sure you have read Galatians as well as many other books. And you are certainly "zealously affected" as Paul talks about in chapter 4".

I know I have not been as clear as I would have liked to be in my postings, but that's ok, because the Spirit of God can always make up for where we fall short. In closing I would say that we just don't have the same understanding of what it means to be adopted into the household of God, no longer a servant, but now a son. But thank you for working on all of this with me and many thanks to others who contributed and tried to clarify what the Spirit and the Word are saying. It is undeniable that there are at least two camps on this subject and undoubtedly more variations. I do hope that you are not trying to be justifed by the law because Galatians 5:4 is pretty clear that we have fallen from grace if we are trying to be justified by the law. I wish you God's best and thank you once again for the conversation. I'm glad you came back so I could close out with you.

May the Lord continue to open up the eyes of our understanding and keep us teachable and pliable in His hand.

All the best to you, Raeneske,
Axehead


Gal_5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

 

[John_8:32]

And now for the rest of the story, the response to Axehead's post...

In place of the Old Testament Law, Christians are to obey the law of Christ. Rather than trying to remember the over 600+ individual commandments in the Old Testament Law, Christians are simply to focus on loving God and loving others. As we obey these two commands, we will be fulfilling everything that God requires of us. That is what Jesus said, not me.

If you are of the law your faith is made void.
Rom_4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

What does Paul say at the end of his list of the fruits of the Spirit?
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. There is no law against the fruits of the Spirit.

So, since the fruit of the Spirit is these things, how does that negate a Command to do no murder?

That is why Abraham could be declared righteous even though he was not circumcised or observant of the Sabbath. Yes, one of the fruits of the Spirit is FAITH.

Now you are taking some liberty with what really happened…

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

The Sabbath has been around since creation week.

Rom_4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Rom_5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Christ freed us from the bondage of the hundreds of commands in the Old Testament Law and instead calls on us to love. 1_John 4:7-8 declares, “ Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. ” 1_John 5:3 continues, “For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. (These are the commandments of Christ. You probably got that by now).

Since Christ is the one who spoke those Commandments on Mt. Sinai, I can truthfully say, “Yes, I got that.” The problem is you did not get it.

Some use the fact that we are not under the Old Testament Law as an excuse to sin. The Apostle Paul addresses this very issue in Romans chapter 5. “What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. ? By no means!” (

Romans 6:15). For the follower of Christ, the avoidance of sin is to be accomplished out of love for God and love for others. Love is to be our motivation.

You are misapplying this scripture, because we are not under the penalty of the law, but we have received grace, the undeserved, unmerited forgiveness for breaking the law, we should not sin .

When we recognize the value of Jesus’ sacrifice on our behalf, our response is to be love, gratitude, and obedience. When we understand the sacrifice Jesus made for us and others, our response is to be to follow His example in expressing love to others. Our motivation for overcoming sin should be love, not a desire to legalistically obey a series of commandments. We are to obey the law of Christ because we love Him, not so that we can check off a list of commands that we have successfully obeyed.

Axehead

Actually, when I contemplate God’s great and wonderful Law and realize every day how far short I fall, I am so very thankful that Christ paid my debt for breaking this law. If you go around teaching that there is no law, and therefore no great and terrible debt for breaking it and great and wonderful praise to God for forgiving it, then you terribly cheapen the sacrifice of Christ.

Done and done.

 

[mjrhealth]

Whats done??

Are you wondering why we havnt posted, it is simply because we know we cannot convince you of the truth. Jesus could not convince the pharisees and He was there performing miracles in front of them. If He could not do it, what hope have we. Without Jesus, the leading of the Holy Spirit and Revelation its all just words.

Php 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Php 3:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Php 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Php 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Php 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Let all the glory be His.

In all His Love