Sabbath

Raeneske · Jan 12, 2013

James Forthwright said:
Raeneske, I highly commend your devotion to God's eternal Law. The Ten Commandments are the foundation of God's Law and were inscribed in stone by the Creator's own hand. I believe they are divinely arranged in a hierarchical fashion. The Sabbath at #4 is certainly high on that sacred list. How is it that NONE of the other nine commandments are ever disputed as still being relevant to Christians? It is not a demonstration of "liberty" in Christ to dismiss our obligations to obey our Heavenly Father's commandments. Jesus and His disciples certainly obeyed each and every one of the Ten Commandments.

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Wilt thou rejoice with me? Last night my understanding deepened in the scriptures. So many things opened up and clicked, of which I am about to share. May the Lord be glorified in all of this! Also, good post about Matthew 19:17, I never thought to use that.

Axehead said:
I'm sorry Rae, I think you are inferring and assuming too many things prior to the Mosaic covenant. And I understand why you are doing it. However, I am not even sure you understand the Law of Liberty and the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus so at this point I think it is best that I back off and allow someone else who may be able to explain things in a better way, to you.

All the best,
Axehead

I have prayed for you, and I hope this helps understanding. Not to embarrass you, or make you feel like an idiot, but because ye are bought with a price.

James 1:22-25 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

James 2:10-12 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

The 10 Commandments are like a mirror. It can only tell you how dirty you are. But why would we look at the dirt, and then not seek a way to be cleansed? This the Lord does for us, He cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

The 10 Commandments are also called, The Law of Liberty. So long as you are breaking those commandments, you are still a slave to sin. The Law of Liberty demonstrates the true freedom a Christian has, when one is able to keep it. It shows and lets the Christian know that Jesus Christ has in fact been working in your life, and works on your behalf.

John 8:32-36 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered him, We be Abraham’s seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Even Jesus said himself, those who commit sin, are slaves to sin. Sin, is the Transgression of the Law of Liberty.

1 John 3:3-10 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Jesus came, and took away that bondage from sin which we had. Was the law sin? Was the 10 Commandments that bondage? No, but sin, took occasion by the commandment, came and killed us. We know the Law, as does Satan. Satan has a problem with that law, therefore tries to bring all of mankind with him.

Romans 6:14-23 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 7: 1-4 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

I admit, I racked my brain going, "We are not under The Law (10 Commandments), but we still have to keep them?"

We are free from the Law, but we are not freed from obeying the Law as Romans 6:14-15 showed. So then, how can one be not under it? Well, we as Christians are supposed to be "dead" anyways. And while self dies, Christ lives. If Christ lives, you will be keeping that Law, because there is no sin in Christ. However, if self lives, you shall be continually breaking that law. We are carnal, but Christ is spiritual, and that law (10 Commandments) is spiritual.

Romans 7:5-14 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

So then, what are we freed from? The penalty of breaking the law.. This is absolute, as we are told we still must obey the law. Not in oldness of letter, but in newness of spirit. What is the spirit of the law? Ask Christ, who taught the spirit. It is inside your heart. The law, being spiritual, but we being carnal could not understand that before. The Spiritual Law, the 10 Commandments, said "Thou shalt not kill", and we obeyed by the letter not physically murdering anyone. But Jesus showed, that you kill when you have hate in your heart against your brother. The Law all along carried the spiritual qualities with it, however the understanding of men is and was carnal.

When God said, "6 days thou shalt labour and do all thy work, but the 7th Day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God. In it thou shalt not do any work", He was serious. However, the law which is spiritual also included much of what men's understanding did not include. You are to keep the 7th Day Sabbath Holy, there have been no changes, and those who break God's Law after hearing the truth completely and they understand, shall be without excuse. That law never forbade Sacred Work to be done, nor the healing of those in danger, or withered up. In the oldness of letter, with carnal eyesight, we could not see past that. With the newness of Spirit, the Lord deepens that understanding. You are still to keep the Sabbath Day. It is a requirement, Jesus said not one jot or tittle should change. Not a single one did. Jesus himself, kept the Sabbath.

Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

Is anyone better than Christ? Are we better, that the same law if Christ broke would have been considered sin, but if we break it, we are considered "free"?

So, to recap my points:

You are not under the law, but under grace. However you shall not sin if you are under grace either. So then, what aren't we under? We aren't under the curse of the law, the penalty of transgression. If you are transgressing the law, you are a slave to sin. That is why the Law is called The Law of Liberty. While you are keeping the law, you are not a slave to sin, you are freed from the bondage of sin. The Spirit of the Law is a deeper understanding of the law. The law was already spiritual, but our carnal eyes could not see past what the letter had written. Jesus came to explain the law, and He magnified it. Not one jot or tittle changed. It is not freedom, not liberty, to break the 4th Commandment, It is written, rest the 7th Day. And if self has died, and Jesus lives, then you will be found keeping the 7th Day Holy. Will you be found doing secular work? Nay, but spiritual work. You will be found praying, teaching truth, gathering with brethern, etc. There is nothing against resting either, Sit back, and read scripture, or listen to real Christian music. Anything that glorifies the Lord.

Making this day unholy, by doing your secular manor of work, is not keeping the Sabbath. You are found guilty, a transgressor of the law. Keep the Commandments Axe. All 10.

mjrhealth said:
Before the cross it was all about the flesh after the cross it is all about the Spirit.

Luk_11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Joh_3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

But again, there are many still trying to fit the new wine into the old wine skin. It doesnt work.

In all His Love

This is the representation of a new man. You can't stamp the name "Christian" on someone who refuses to keep the Commandments of God. You are trying to put new wine in an old bottle. You must die of self, Jesus must live. You become a new man. Then, do the spiritual applications of the Law make sense.

See my post for Axehead.

Axehead · Jan 12, 2013

Raeneske said:
Wilt thou rejoice with me? Last night my understanding deepened in the scriptures. So many things opened up and clicked, of which I am about to share. May the Lord be glorified in all of this! Also, good post about Matthew 19:17, I never thought to use that.

I have prayed for you, and I hope this helps understanding. Not to embarrass you, or make you feel like an idiot, but because ye are bought with a price.

James 1:22-25 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

James 2:10-12 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

The 10 Commandments are like a mirror. It can only tell you how dirty you are. But why would we look at the dirt, and then not seek a way to be cleansed? This the Lord does for us, He cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

The 10 Commandments are also called, The Law of Liberty.

That is not true! That is not what the Law of Liberty is.

So long as you are breaking those commandments, you are still a slave to sin. The Law of Liberty demonstrates the true freedom a Christian has, when one is able to keep it. It shows and lets the Christian know that Jesus Christ has in fact been working in your life, and works on your behalf.

John 8:32-36 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered him, We be Abraham’s seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Even Jesus said himself, those who commit sin, are slaves to sin. Sin, is the Transgression of the Law of Liberty.

1 John 3:3-10 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Jesus came, and took away that bondage from sin which we had. Was the law sin? Was the 10 Commandments that bondage? No, but sin, took occasion by the commandment, came and killed us. We know the Law, as does Satan. Satan has a problem with that law, therefore tries to bring all of mankind with him.

Romans 6:14-23 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 7: 1-4 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

The Law (husband) won't die, so the woman (us) had to die and that is how we became free from that law. By the body of Christ. We died with Him in the likeness of His death and were raised free men, free to marry another (Christ). Christ was no longer under the law after He died and resurrected and we are no longer under the law since we died with Him (which freed us from the law) and rose with Him in newness of life. We are now new creatures that this world has never seen and we are under a higher law (law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus) that goes far beyond the outward law, so that we not only fulfill the outward ordinances but go further and obey the Lord from the heart. Why would anyone want to be under the law only obeying the outward ordinances. To do that would put you back under the penalty of the law which is if you transgress one law you are guilty of them all. You have fallen from grace!!!!

Gal_5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

What you are doing is classic "mixture". You want Christ and the Law and Paul says that is spiritual adultery in Romans 7.
"So then if, while her husband (the Law) liveth, she be married to another man (Jesus Christ), she shall be called an adulteress:"

I admit, I racked my brain going, "We are not under The Law (10 Commandments), but we still have to keep them?"

We are free from the Law, but we are not freed from obeying the Law as Romans 6:14-15 showed. So then, how can one be not under it? Well, we as Christians are supposed to be "dead" anyways. And while self dies, Christ lives. If Christ lives, you will be keeping that Law, because there is no sin in Christ. However, if self lives, you shall be continually breaking that law. We are carnal, but Christ is spiritual, and that law (10 Commandments) is spiritual.

Romans 7:5-14 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

So then, what are we freed from? The penalty of breaking the law..
No, redeemed from the curse of the law. Do you know what the curse of the law is?
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

This is absolute, as we are told we still must obey the law. Not in oldness of letter, but in newness of spirit. What is the spirit of the law? Ask Christ, who taught the spirit. It is inside your heart. The law, being spiritual, but we being carnal could not understand that before. The Spiritual Law, the 10 Commandments, said "Thou shalt not kill", and we obeyed by the letter not physically murdering anyone. But Jesus showed, that you kill when you have hate in your heart against your brother. The Law all along carried the spiritual qualities with it, however the understanding of men is and was carnal.

You are getting closer, Rae. Now, what is the spiritual application of the Sabbath?

When God said, "6 days thou shalt labour and do all thy work, but the 7th Day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God. In it thou shalt not do any work", He was serious. However, the law which is spiritual also included much of what men's understanding did not include. You are to keep the 7th Day Sabbath Holy, there have been no changes, and those who break God's Law after hearing the truth completely and they understand, shall be without excuse.

Wait a minute. You just implied there were changes about not killing (hating someone in their heart) which is really the fulfillment of that commandment. But now you say there are no changes with the Sabbath. Yet there is a fulfillment of that commandment, too. You want to keep the 4th commandment outwardly yet admit there is an inward and deeper fulfillment of the other commandments. Well, there is an inward and deeper fulfillment of the 4th commandment, too.

That law never forbade Sacred Work to be done, nor the healing of those in danger, or withered up. In the oldness of letter, with carnal eyesight, we could not see past that. With the newness of Spirit, the Lord deepens that understanding. You are still to keep the Sabbath Day. It is a requirement, Jesus said not one jot or tittle should change. Not a single one did. Jesus himself, kept the Sabbath.

And Jesus was under the OT. So you are wrong in your thinking. Jesus said that it is ok to do well on the Sabbath. Nothing about sacred work was said. And what about the man in the OT who was gathering wood for his family who probably needed a fire to keep them warm? Why would he risk his life for wood that he did not need? He was stoned to death for "doing well" on the Sabbath. God won't do that today for those who need to take care of their family on the Sabbath. Thanks to Jesus!!
Mat 12:12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

Luk 6:9 Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it?

Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

Is anyone better than Christ? Are we better, that the same law if Christ broke would have been considered sin, but if we break it, we are considered "free"?

Nothing is better than Christ, not even a day of the week.

So, to recap my points:

You are not under the law, but under grace. However you shall not sin if you are under grace either.

But what happens if you do sin?

So then, what aren't we under? We aren't under the curse of the law, the penalty of transgression. If you are transgressing the law, you are a slave to sin. That is why the Law is called The Law of Liberty. While you are keeping the law, you are not a slave to sin, you are freed from the bondage of sin.

But know one can keep the Law perfectly. If you put yourself under the Law then you are bound to keep the whole law and if you transgress one law then you are guilty of all. So which is it. Have you been freed from the law or not? To walk by the Spirit or the flesh? For Christians "breaking the outward observance of the Sabbath", you are saying that they are sinning, but refuse to admit that there is a fulfillment of the Sabbath and an inward and deeper meaning of it, though you allow for a fulfillment and inward deeper meaning of other commandments, you will not allow that for the 4th commandment. Do you see an irony in that mindset of yours?

The Spirit of the Law is a deeper understanding of the law. The law was already spiritual, but our carnal eyes could not see past what the letter had written. Jesus came to explain the law, and He magnified it. Not one jot or tittle changed. It is not freedom, not liberty, to break the 4th Commandment, It is written, rest the 7th Day. And if self has died, and Jesus lives, then you will be found keeping the 7th Day Holy. Will you be found doing secular work? Nay, but spiritual work. You will be found praying, teaching truth, gathering with brethern, etc. There is nothing against resting either, Sit back, and read scripture, or listen to real Christian music. Anything that glorifies the Lord.

Doing secular work may be "doing well", because you are feeding your family. When a man accepts responsibility to care for and feed his family, he is doing well and it is a righteous act of men to do well like this. You see, by following the outward law, you have put yourself in a position to judge others outwardly. This is the nature of following the law from an outward point of view and this is why the Pharisees judged unrighteously. You have just stipulated what a person can or cannot do on the Sabbath and that sets you up for judging others and determining all by yourself, what is the definition in someone else's life of "DOING WELL" or "NOT DOING WELL". You cannot judge the thoughts and intents of a man's heart on 9 commandments. What makes you think you can judge other men regarding the 4th commandment. Well, that is easy. You apply different reasoning to the 4th than you do to the others.

Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

More than one Sabbath Day was given by the Law and that is why Paul has it correct when he says "SABBATH DAYS" (plural). He meant all of them!!
Col_2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Making this day unholy, by doing your secular manor of work, is not keeping the Sabbath. You are found guilty, a transgressor of the law. Keep the Commandments Axe. All 10.
Again, you are stipulating what is "doing well" and "what is not doing well" and only God is the judge of that.

1Ti_5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

Hopefully you will now see your inconsistency to apply to the 4th commandment your same reasoning for the other commandments. Yes, there is an inward fulfillment of the 4th commandment, too. And I will attempt to show you why JESUS is the BETTER REST of GOD.

Raeneske, I do believe that you are very sincere in your beliefs. That is evident to me. But, I see much "mixture" and "confusion" in this post and so I will continue to try to elucidate where the confusion seems to be and what the mixture is.

I do believe we are going to get this "ironed out" and you are going to see what the Liberty of Christ is all about.

Axehead

Raeneske · Jan 12, 2013

Axehead said:
Raeneske, I do believe that you are very sincere in your beliefs. That is evident to me. But, I see much "mixture" and "confusion" in this post and so I will continue to try to elucidate where the confusion seems to be and what the mixture is.

I do believe we are going to get this "ironed out" and you are going to see what the Liberty of Christ is all about.

Axehead

No, that is what the Law of Liberty is.

James 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

James 2:10-12 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

If you teach “do not commit adultery” (commandment 7), and said also “do not kill” (commandment 6), but you break them, you become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do – literally, so “Teach the Commandments, and do them” as you shall be judged by the law of liberty. The Commandments here are called the law of liberty. There is no freedom in breaking the law, you are proving yourself to be a slave of sin, when you break the law. It is either one or the other. You teach them, and do them. Or you refuse to do them, and teach other men to break them, and Jesus said such are called least. Those who teach and do, are called great.

You literally ignored (whether on purpose, or accident, I do not know) the very next part of which you highlighted.

Romans 6:14-15 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Yes, you are not under the law. You understood that part. But it says directly after that, “You shall not break that law” Although we are not under the law, you have no license to do what you will. Christ did not die, to give you license to, “do as thou wilt”. Breaking the law proves bondage to sin. There are no two ways about that. Those who break the law, are in bondage to sin. You are not free at all. And what is sin? 1 John 3:4, sin is the transgression of that law. You either 1) Break that law, or, 2) Keep that law.

The law did not die, you are correct. But we have died. So, what does that mean? That you may break the law? No, you may not. Romans 6:15 told you that. You may not, you have no authority, to break that law. So then, what are you freed from? The penalty of transgression, is what you are freed from. And we obtain that from Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour. And now, we obey the law evermore. You are only “under the law” when you break the law. So, Christ came to remove you from being under the law, (which does not give you license to break it, repeatedly, continually), and has placed you under grace. Now, we sinners saved by grace, are under grace, and are not under the law.

We are not trying to be saved from the law, that is accusation that goes straight out the window. It is impossible to be saved from the law, this we know. Jesus saves us. Are we trying to save ourselves, when we obey any of the other commandments? No, absolutely not. So, why is it when the Sabbath Commandment is kept, we are accused of trying to save ourselves? It’s contradictory, it does not make sense.

Yes, exactly, cursed are those who do not keep the commandments. You are freed from that curse of the law. However, are you free from obeying the Commandments? Absolutely NOT! I urge you, look at Romans 6:14-15 again, and again. You are freed from it. But does that mean you can break it? NO. So then, what does it mean when they say you are freed from it? It means, you are freed from the curse. Is the law the curse? No, breaking the law, is what brings about a curse.

No, I did not say there was changes to the law. Let me explain it this way:

The law was always spiritual. It was always. It is like someone who writes something down for us. They know exactly what they mean. But we are the unlearned readers, who could not see past the letter. There was not a change done to the Commandment thou shalt not kill. Every jot and tittle remained intact. What Jesus did, is came and explained what was meant by thou shalt not kill. He showed the oldness of the letter, and the newness of Spirit. It is so with every single commandment. You are not at license to break the Sabbath Commandment as well. If you go about making the 7th Day Sabbath unholy, you are not keeping it at all. You cannot make any claim that you are doing so. The newness of spirit Jesus showed, as what you have presented. It is lawful to do well on the Sabbath. Healing the blind, Cleansing the lepers, visiting the sick, preaching, etc. All that is in harmony with the Sabbath, it gives the receivers rest. You are a worker with Christ giving rest to the one who needs it. But working at your job, doing all secular manner of work, chasing after your own pleasures, is not keeping the Sabbath. Take up the cross, every day. The Sabbath day is one of the most ultimate denials of self, that lasts for 24 hours every single week.

That man was not stoned for thinking, “Oh well I’m going to keep my family warm today”. You must think about that statement. Did God seriously give them a commandment, that would deprive them of daily warmth, food, and daily needs? Absolutely not. That man, like every other person, had the chance to prepare for the Sabbath Day. When he went out and broke the Sabbath Day, he did so willingly, knowing full well that he was not to break the commandment. Israel was in a desert for 40 years. They knew better, how cold it got at night. God had nothing against warming yourself. However, He had every problem with not preparing for the day, which He specifically told you to prepare for.

When you sin, you repent, and you are cleansed from all unrighteousness, and your sins are going to be blotted out.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

You then stand in the cleansing love of Jesus, as if you have not sinned. You are then told to do what? Go and forget about the commandments of God? No, but GO and break the law no more.

Where have I applied different reasoning for the 4th Commandment than others? Am I not the one stating how this commandment still remains, and yet others apply different reasoning to this very same commandment, claiming it is gone?

The Lord said not to work on the Sabbath Day. This is a fact, man has 6 days to labor. If your family member suddenly fell ill, there would be no sin. That is mercy, and not sacrifice. But, if you were just going to work to get a days paycheck, you would be proving to the Lord, “I do not want your laws, I want none to do with your Sabbath. I will take this day as my own working day”.

Colossians 2:16 has to do with the shadows of the Cross. The 7th Day Sabbath, is not a shadow of the cross. It points to creation week, not to the cross. That is completely different. Read Leviticus 23, and you will see how the Lord told Moses to split those up. One is the Commandment, others are the shadow of the cross.

Again, Jesus is not the Sabbath. Jesus is the Saviour. And how can that Saviour give you rest, if you refuse to come on His day, to rest and worship Him?

mjrhealth · Jan 12, 2013

.Joh 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Joh_19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Jesus finished it all, all the work required for your salvation, He did, but to you it is not finished, to you its all about you doing the work. this is why you have no rest, you have not fully come to Jesus, you have not entered into His rest, the LAW has you in bondage for you choose to live by it. Again if you live by the law you shall be judged by the law, and in that there is only one outcome, death, for you have not accepted the FREE gift of salvation from God.

Heb_4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

In All His Love

Raeneske · Jan 12, 2013

mjrhealth said:
.Joh 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Joh_19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Jesus finished it all, all the work required for your salvation, He did, but to you it is not finished, to you its all about you doing the work. this is why you have no rest, you have not fully come to Jesus, you have not entered into His rest, the LAW has you in bondage for you choose to live by it. Again if you live by the law you shall be judged by the law, and in that there is only one outcome, death, for you have not accepted the FREE gift of salvation from God.

Heb_4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

In All His Love

I agree, Jesus finished it. But you still must obey. Salvation is a free gift, I am not denying that either. What I will deny, is that you do not have to keep the Law. Scripture is plain, although you are not under it, you have no license to break it. So then, what have you been freed from? The curse of the law, the penalty of transgression. You are freed from the curse being poured out upon you. Does that mean, "Go, and worry not about the commandments anymore"? No, Jesus saith, "Go, and sin no more". Is the law sin? No, you don't know what sin is, except the law tells you. So then, if the law is telling you what sin is, why are you going about, and disobeying the law? Do you desire to be back under the curse of the law? If you choose not to do the commandments, you are cursed, keep 1, keep them all. Break one, break them all. If by the law, comes the knowledge of sin, and Christ says, "Go and sin no more", should we not keep the law?

mjrhealth · Jan 12, 2013

A gift is only free when you accept it as such, when you try to earn it, it is no longer a gift.

What has the law to do with Love???

In All His Love

Raeneske · Jan 12, 2013

mjrhealth said:
A gift is only free when you accept it as such, when you try to earn it, it is no longer a gift.

What has the law to do with Love???

In All His Love

It is a free gift, who said you're earning it? But how easily can that gift be taken away from you, when after receiving it, you choose not to obey.

The Law is love. Romans 13:8-10 proves that.

mjrhealth · Jan 12, 2013

The Law is love. Romans 13:8-10 proves that.

Now that you understand that, in that you fulfill all the rest. One word LOVE

In All His Love

Axehead · Jan 13, 2013

mjrhealth said:
.Joh 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Joh_19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Jesus finished it all, all the work required for your salvation, He did, but to you it is not finished, to you its all about you doing the work. this is why you have no rest, you have not fully come to Jesus, you have not entered into His rest, the LAW has you in bondage for you choose to live by it. Again if you live by the law you shall be judged by the law, and in that there is only one outcome, death, for you have not accepted the FREE gift of salvation from God.

Heb_4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

In All His Love

I can only echo what MJR says, Raeneske. He's got a hold of it.

Raeneske said:
Again, Jesus is not the Sabbath. Jesus is the Saviour. And how can that Saviour give you rest, if you refuse to come on His day, to rest and worship Him?

Now that is what I want to show you. How the Saviour can give you rest not just on one day a week, but 7 days a week. Who wants rest just one day a week? It is clear to me that you do not understand or experience the Rest of Jesus Christ 7 days a week. You see, those who are under the law have no rest because it is all about their efforts and their works. The Sabbath rest of Christ is one of the most wonderful things about the new birth.

By the way, I suppose some people just earn a paycheck to earn a paycheck. I don't know anyone like that. I do know many that earn a paycheck because they are the only one that others depend on for their vital temporal needs. And those people are doing well and holding up their God given responsibilities. I know you are young and maybe a student, don't know, but when you get out into the world and have to earn a living, you will realize that sometimes there is no choice but to work on Sunday or Saturday (whatever your sabbath day is) and if you don't you lose your job. Many cannot afford to lose their job. The wonderful thing about Jesus Christ is that you should be enjoying His rest even when you are working. By His Holy Spirit it is possible to enjoy the Rest of God regardless of what your station in life is.

Ok, it's getting late, but I am really looking forward to sharing with you about The Better Rest - Jesus Christ. Thank you for the opportunity.

All the best,
Axehead

Raeneske · Jan 13, 2013

mjrhealth said:
Now that you understand that, in that you fulfill all the rest. One word LOVE

In All His Love

And how do you love? See Romans 13:10 again. Love is fulfilling the law. So how do you love your fellow man? By this: Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, etc.

Axehead said:
I can only echo what MJR says, Raeneske. He's got a hold of it. 

Now that is what I want to show you. How the Saviour can give you rest not just on one day a week, but 7 days a week. Who wants rest just one day a week? It is clear to me that you do not understand or experience the Rest of Jesus Christ 7 days a week. You see, those who are under the law have no rest because it is all about their efforts and their works. The Sabbath rest of Christ is one of the most wonderful things about the new birth.

By the way, I suppose some people just earn a paycheck to earn a paycheck. I don't know anyone like that. I do know many that earn a paycheck because they are the only one that others depend on for their vital temporal needs. And those people are doing well and holding up their God given responsibilities. I know you are young and maybe a student, don't know, but when you get out into the world and have to earn a living, you will realize that sometimes there is no choice but to work on Sunday or Saturday (whatever your sabbath day is) and if you don't you lose your job. Many cannot afford to lose their job. The wonderful thing about Jesus Christ is that you should be enjoying His rest even when you are working. By His Holy Spirit it is possible to enjoy the Rest of God regardless of what your station in life is. 

Ok, it's getting late, but I am really looking forward to sharing with you about The Better Rest - Jesus Christ. Thank you for the opportunity. 
 
All the best, 
Axehead

Axehead,

I have said that though you are not under the law, but grace, you are still not allowed to transgress the law. Scripture is very plain on that matter. Romans 6:14-15 shows that to you. So, you cannot accuse, or begin to, or allow someone else to place the accusation, that someone is trying to work their way to Heaven. If someone is obediant to God, they are not "working" their way to Heaven. This is a heavily upsetting accusation, because that's all it is, an accusation.

Now apply your reasoning about the other commandments, to the 4th one please. Am I working my way to Heaven, when the law says "Thou shalt not kill", and someone comes and angers me, and I decide to keep the letter and the spirit of the law? I was tempted by Satan, "That guy... rise up and slay him, his arrogance is too much... God would be pleased to know you've rid the world of such an abbhorance". But I decided to keep the letter and the spirit. Am I trying to work my way to Heaven, when I refuse to hate them, and refuse to outwardly get up and slay them? Okay, so why am I constantly accused of trying to work to Heaven, when I am resting as God said I should rest? Not only is this mighty contradictory of the words "working your way to heaven", I have to ask, how is my obediance to this commandment, meaning I'm working my way to heaven. If observing the law on any point constitutes me working my way to Heaven, then I may as well ignore the law, and break it repeatedly, that way grace may abound more. But that wouldn't go so right with our Lord, would it? Would He not say to those who do such things "Depart from me, ye that work iniquity"?

Now for another point. Since when has keeping the spirit of the law, constituted the breaking of the law? What do I mean: Since when has deciding not to hate my brother mean, that I'm actually allowed to rise up and slay him? That makes no sense, right? So, when has keeping the Spirit of the 7th Day Sabbath, which is healing the sick, praying with the widows, as well as just resting, kicking back and listening to Christian music, constituted the breaking of the 7th Day Sabbath? This may be obvious, but not everyone has time to do this every single day. God calls people in certain areas, in certain jobs. They are to be the light of the world there (unless you like, work at a strip club, or something like that, then I would leave such a job). You are to work 6 days a week. Then the 7th Day, take a rest from your secular labors. This is a COMMANDMENT. This has not gone away. You are to keep it, as am I.

Now about Christ giving rest, I would not have you ignorant concerning my thoughts on the subject. I agree wholeheartedly - Christ gives you rest. On just one day? No, but all seven days. Is Christ there in the everyday life? Yes. Is He prayed to, does He comfort every single day? Yes, this is without a doubt.

Do not cry out, "What more do you need then!?" Obediance, unflinching obediance, is what you need. You need to rest, The Sabbath wasn't made on a mere whim. People break down for working all the time like that. It would be like a sick person crying out "I have Jesus what more do I need". Truly, what more do you need? Simple, irrefutable. But you also need to not be an idiot, get in bed, and get your much needed rest.

You, I, and everyone else need to rest. Get your mind off your labours for once, get your mind off a job for once. Instead, spend a full 24 hours, ministering to the needs of others, and resting yourself.

You don't keep the 7th Day Sabbath to get saved. You keep it, because Jesus Christ, the Creator of the World, and all that is seen and unseen, set the day apart for holy use, for you and I. You keep the day, because you are saved.

Thegoodground · Jan 13, 2013

Raeneske said:
The sign of the 7th Day Sabbath points to creation week, not the cross, yes. The 7th Day Sabbath was instituted in Eden before sin, not after.

Again you show your error.

The 7th day itself pointed forward as did the sign of the Sabbath Law to a future age where God would dwell with man. It was sin that caused God to work once more to restore a lost rest. That rest is now found within a spiritual creation and not the literal physical creation you draw back too.

And when all things shall be subdued unto him (Yahweh), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (Yahweh) that put all things under him, that God may be all in all . (1Co 15:28)

The sign of the Sabbath Law was no longer required once it had been fulfilled (and taken away) in the crucifixion when God conquered sin and death in Christ on the Cross.

Your belief has you saying the "all and all" endless age of rest, was not achieved in Christ's death and resurrection.

Your position is becoming more tenable each time with converse.

When will you repent of such error and yield to truth? We say when?

TGG

Raeneske · Jan 13, 2013

Thegoodground said:
Again you show your error.

The 7th day itself pointed forward as did the sign of the Sabbath Law to a future age where God would dwell with man. It was sin that caused God to work once more to restore a lost rest. That rest is now found within a spiritual creation and not the literal physical creation you draw back too.

And when all things shall be subdued unto him (Yahweh), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (Yahweh) that put all things under him, that God may be all in all . (1Co 15:28)

The sign of the Sabbath Law was no longer required once it had been fulfilled (and taken away) in the crucifixion when God conquered sin and death in Christ on the Cross.

Your belief has you saying the "all and all" endless age of rest, was not achieved in Christ's death and resurrection.

Your position is becoming more tenable each time with converse.

When will you repent of such error and yield to truth? We say when?

TGG

Scripture speaks for itself. What does this point to: the cross, or creation?

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

When did the day get set apart for holy use? Before sin, or after sin?

Genesis 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

In Creation week, before sin.

What you presented was out of context. I have no doubt, all things shall be brought in subjection to Christ.

My belief says nothing of the sort. I have answered that in the previous post to Axehead. A sick man can scream, "I have Christ, that's all I need". That's simple, and irrefutable. Yes, that's all you need. But if you are sickly, and you dont rest like you are told to you, you will just become more sick. It's how God designed the body. It needs rest. If you don't rest when God told you to, you're just going to be enslaved even more by sin. The light had come, and the invalid rejected the rest. Now, the invalid pays for his deeds.

Axehead · Jan 13, 2013

I spoke about this but you ignored it Raeneske.

1. Why is the Sabbath the only one of the ten commandments that are said to be "throughout your generations", the usual phrase that indicates it was a temporary ceremonial law only for the Jews?

Probably why the weekly Sabbath commandment is never quoted in the New Testament?

Here are some additional questions to help you think this through.
2. How could Adam, Noah and Abraham keep the Sabbath, when Deuteronomy_5:2-4 says that the 10 commandment covenant was "not made with any of the fathers of Israel who lived before Moses."

Deu_5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

3. If we must follow the example of Jesus in all things like keeping the Sabbath, then why do Sabbatarians not follow the example of Jesus in circumcision, animal sacrifices and keeping Passover?

4. If the first/old covenant was abolished according to Heb_8:13 and the Ten commandment law was that first covenant (Ex_34:27-28; 1_Kings 8:9,21; Heb_9:1-4), then why do Sabbatarians want to keep the first/old covenant?

5. If the Sabbath is a moral law, why did Jesus say that David, the priests, a man with his donkey could all break the Sabbath without sin? Mt_12:1-14; Mk_2:23f, Lk_13:10-17; 14:1-6 Jn_5:8-18; 7:19-24; 9:14-1.

6. If the Sabbath is a moral law, why did God grow tired of the Jews keeping it and told them to stop keeping the Sabbath? Isa_1:13-14 Did God ever grow weary of anyone not committing adultery or murder, and tell them to be immoral and kil.

7. If the Sabbath is a moral law, how could Jesus break it without sinning? Jn_5:18

Axehead

Raeneske · Jan 13, 2013

Axehead said:
I spoke about this but you ignored it Raeneske.

1. Why is the Sabbath the only one of the ten commandments that are said to be "throughout your generations", the usual phrase that indicates it was a temporary ceremonial law only for the Jews?

Probably why the weekly Sabbath commandment is never quoted in the New Testament?

Here are some additional questions to help you think this through.
2. How could Adam, Noah and Abraham keep the Sabbath, when Deuteronomy_5:2-4 says that the 10 commandment covenant was "not made with any of the fathers of Israel who lived before Moses."

Deu_5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

3. If we must follow the example of Jesus in all things like keeping the Sabbath, then why do Sabbatarians not follow the example of Jesus in circumcision, animal sacrifices and keeping Passover?

4. If the first/old covenant was abolished according to Heb_8:13 and the Ten commandment law was that first covenant (Ex_34:27-28; 1_Kings 8:9,21; Heb_9:1-4), then why do Sabbatarians want to keep the first/old covenant?

5. If the Sabbath is a moral law, why did Jesus say that David, the priests, a man with his donkey could all break the Sabbath without sin? Mt_12:1-14; Mk_2:23f, Lk_13:10-17; 14:1-6 Jn_5:8-18; 7:19-24; 9:14-1.

6. If the Sabbath is a moral law, why did God grow tired of the Jews keeping it and told them to stop keeping the Sabbath? Isa_1:13-14 Did God ever grow weary of anyone not committing adultery or murder, and tell them to be immoral and kil.

7. If the Sabbath is a moral law, how could Jesus break it without sinning? Jn_5:18

Axehead

I must not have seen it, I shall answer them now though.

1) It is said in these places:

Exodus 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you.

Exodus 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Later on in the same chapter, it is called a perpetual covenant. It is the only commandment which it seems was specifically stated to be a perpetual covenant. Yes, they were to keep it throughout their generations, that cannot be argued. But, that does not mean that it was not to be kept at all, by anyone else. Yes, the Sabbath Commandment is not explicitly stated so far as I can see. But while we know the 10 Commandments are to be eternal, the Moral law is eternal in nature, we then can know, that the Commandment of God exists in the NT church as well. We also have John the Revelator keeping the Sabbath (Revelation 1:10). And we know for a fact, John was not forced to continue on with animal sacrifices, etc.

2) It is not "the 10 Commandment Covenant" that was not known. It is the Old Covenant which was not known by the fathers of Israel.

3) The crux of the issue. The difference between the Eternal 10 Commandments (called the Law of Liberty by John) and the Old Covenant set up at Mount Sinai. This is the reason Sabbatarians do not do all that which you spake. If you do not split the 10 Commandments and the Old Covenant sacrifices, sabbaths etc. up, you will not, absolutely will not see the difference, nor will you see why the Sabbath is kept. The Sabbath Commandment was classed and written with the Moral Law for a reason. The other sabbaths were not classed with that moral law, for a reason. It is because the Sabbath belongs where it was placed, with the Moral Law. The fact that it was classed with something that signifies it being it eternal in nature, proves by itself, that this is not to pass away. Jesus said it himself, not one jot or tittle was to change. In doing away with #4, you have no choice but to change what is written. You in fact must change what is written to get away with it. So again, it is because Sabbatarians separate the 10 Commandments, and the Old Covenant sacrifices, etc. The 10 Commandments are the 10 Commandments, we do not separate them. Period. We do not pick which laws we will obey, and dispose of others. Period. (Not trying to be rude, but trying to show the emphasis). This is the reason. Once you seperate the eternal from the temporary, you will see. And no, this does not mean, head to the eternal, and try to smudge the eternal, or pull the eternal out and place it with the temporary. Split them up.

4) Answered in 2 and 3.

5) That is a misunderstanding on your part. Jesus, nor anyone else broke the law. That would make Jesus a sinner, so Jesus HAD to keep the law PERFECTLY. You have to understand what Jesus is saying here. In the misunderstanding of the Sabbath Law, everything appeared to be sin to them. Yet God was not ridiculous about the law, as the Pharisees had brought so many regulations upon it. You brought that up yourself, that the Pharisees imposed too much upon the people. That is true, and that is why it appeared to be broken. Judging by the understanding here on this board, it seems that people honestly think Christ was saying, "Yeah we sin, so what?" Not even close. He was sinless. He kept the Sabbath the correct way as He showed how other laws were written to be kept. As Luke 4:16 shows, Jesus went into the synagogues on the Sabbath Day. He kept the day, He just didn't have legalistic laws set in His heart. He had God's law written in His heart.

6) The fourth verse in the chapter shows they were being sinful. It is not that God has a problem with His laws and regulations being kept. He had a problem with them corrupting His regulations, and them bring iniquity in to it. In the 11th verse, it shows that the Lord is weary with them. They were in so much iniquity, they were so sinful, what was the point of them doing that? It's like a Christian going to strip clubs everynight, and then coming in the observe the Sabbath. What's the point? Or if a Jew was in iniquity but they kept sinning purposely. What's the point? The Lord is wearied with their vain prayers, and vain sacrifices. It is in vain they do such things, ignoring the law.

7) Answered in #7. If you believe Jesus actually sinned and broke the Sabbath, then you actually are agreeing with the Pharisees, His accusers. Rather you are agreeing with Satan, that the law of God is impossible to be kept. Jesus showed the correct way it is to be kept, and on what grounds emergencies are not counted as Sabbath breaking, and how simply plucking up a piece of corn is not sinful.

While on that topic, I must say this. Satan is the one who wants the Moral Law done away with. Doing away with the 4th Commandment has lead men to continue doing away with the 10 Commandments. Whosoever shall keep the whole law, yet offend in one point, is found guilty before God. As I said, the 10 Commandments are eternal. Christians keeping 9, and tossing the other away is EXACTLY what John was talking about. The only way to escape that, is to deny what is written -- and Woe unto the man or woman who denies what is written. And Woe unto them who teach men to break the law. And all you have to do to teach men and women that is say, "You dont have to keep the law". Woe unto them.

Axehead · Jan 13, 2013

Raeneske said:
I must not have seen it, I shall answer them now though.

1) It is said in these places:

Exodus 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you.

Exodus 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Later on in the same chapter, it is called a perpetual covenant. It is the only commandment which it seems was specifically stated to be a perpetual covenant. Yes, they were to keep it throughout their generations, that cannot be argued. But, that does not mean that it was not to be kept at all, by anyone else. Yes, the Sabbath Commandment is not explicitly stated so far as I can see. But while we know the 10 Commandments are to be eternal, the Moral law is eternal in nature, we then can know, that the Commandment of God exists in the NT church as well. We also have John the Revelator keeping the Sabbath (Revelation 1:10). And we know for a fact, John was not forced to continue on with animal sacrifices, etc.

If the Sabbath will endure forever because it is called "eternal" then won't all the Jewish feasts and circumcision also endure because it is also called eternal in Gen_17:10-14

If the Sabbath will endure forever because it was an eternal sign between God and his people, then shouldn't we also still practice circumcision Gen 17:11 and Passover Ex 12:13 because it too is called an eternal sign between God and his people?

I don't think you know what everlasting means in this context because no one has to observe the outward sign of circumcision.

Raeneske said:
2) It is not "the 10 Commandment Covenant" that was not known. It is the Old Covenant which was not known by the fathers of Israel.

3) The crux of the issue. The difference between the Eternal 10 Commandments (called the Law of Liberty by John) and the Old Covenant set up at Mount Sinai. This is the reason Sabbatarians do not do all that which you spake. If you do not split the 10 Commandments and the Old Covenant sacrifices, sabbaths etc. up, you will not, absolutely will not see the difference, nor will you see why the Sabbath is kept. The Sabbath Commandment was classed and written with the Moral Law for a reason. The other sabbaths were not classed with that moral law, for a reason. It is because the Sabbath belongs where it was placed, with the Moral Law. The fact that it was classed with something that signifies it being it eternal in nature, proves by itself, that this is not to pass away. Jesus said it himself, not one jot or tittle was to change. In doing away with #4, you have no choice but to change what is written. You in fact must change what is written to get away with it. So again, it is because Sabbatarians separate the 10 Commandments, and the Old Covenant sacrifices, etc. The 10 Commandments are the 10 Commandments, we do not separate them. Period. We do not pick which laws we will obey, and dispose of others. Period. (Not trying to be rude, but trying to show the emphasis). This is the reason. Once you seperate the eternal from the temporary, you will see. And no, this does not mean, head to the eternal, and try to smudge the eternal, or pull the eternal out and place it with the temporary. Split them up.

Why are the terms "ceremonial law" and "moral law" never found in the Bible. Why is the word ceremonial or any of its roots never found in the same verse as the word LAW and why is the word moral or any of its roots never found in the same verse as the word LAW?

Are you making up your own religion?

You take liberty in separating the law of God into the "moral law" and the "ceremonial law". People have heard others say "moral law" and "ceremonial law" so much that they probably think the Bible talks about the law this way.

If there is a distinction between moral and ceremonial laws, why do "God's laws" and "the law of God" contain ceremonial laws. Why do "Moses law" and the "law of Moses" contain moral laws?
If there is a distinction between moral and ceremonial laws, why does the "law of God" command animal sacrifices Lk_2:23-24 and the "law of the Lord" contains burnt offerings 2 Chron_31:3; 1 Chron_16:40?
If there is a distinction between moral and ceremonial laws, then why is the book of the law filled with moral laws not contained in the 10 commandments?
If there is a distinction between the Law of the Lord and the Law of Moses, why in 2 Chron_35:26 are "the acts of Josiah and his deeds of devotion as written in the law of the Lord"?
If there is a distinction between moral and ceremonial laws, then why does the Law of God include new moons, solemn feast days: Ps_81:3-4?

Raeneske said:
4) Answered in 2 and 3.

5) That is a misunderstanding on your part. Jesus, nor anyone else broke the law. That would make Jesus a sinner, so Jesus HAD to keep the law PERFECTLY. You have to understand what Jesus is saying here. In the misunderstanding of the Sabbath Law, everything appeared to be sin to them. Yet God was not ridiculous about the law, as the Pharisees had brought so many regulations upon it.

God is not ridiculous about the New Covenant as you are, bringing the law into it.

Raeneske said:
6) The fourth verse in the chapter shows they were being sinful. It is not that God has a problem with His laws and regulations being kept. He had a problem with them corrupting His regulations, and them bring iniquity in to it. In the 11th verse, it shows that the Lord is weary with them. They were in so much iniquity, they were so sinful, what was the point of them doing that? It's like a Christian going to strip clubs everynight, and then coming in the observe the Sabbath. What's the point? Or if a Jew was in iniquity but they kept sinning purposely. What's the point? The Lord is wearied with their vain prayers, and vain sacrifices. It is in vain they do such things, ignoring the law.

7) Answered in #7. If you believe Jesus actually sinned and broke the Sabbath, then you actually are agreeing with the Pharisees, His accusers. Rather you are agreeing with Satan, that the law of God is impossible to be kept. Jesus showed the correct way it is to be kept, and on what grounds emergencies are not counted as Sabbath breaking, and how simply plucking up a piece of corn is not sinful.

While on that topic, I must say this. Satan is the one who wants the Moral Law done away with. Doing away with the 4th Commandment has lead men to continue doing away with the 10 Commandments. Whosoever shall keep the whole law, yet offend in one point, is found guilty before God. As I said, the 10 Commandments are eternal. Christians keeping 9, and tossing the other away is EXACTLY what John was talking about. The only way to escape that, is to deny what is written -- and Woe unto the man or woman who denies what is written. And Woe unto them who teach men to break the law. And all you have to do to teach men and women that is say, "You dont have to keep the law". Woe unto them.

No, that is not why Jesus did what He did on the Sabbath day. Jesus did what He did on the Sabbath day because of mercy and love.

Mat_12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
Mat_12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Mat_12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

So, there you have it. God does not want legalistic sacrifice from us in place of love and mercy. And you don't have the ability to judge whether another person is acting in a capacity of love and mercy or not, because you have in your mind that a person should observe the Sabbath in a hybrid way (not even according to the law) as you do. You talk about observing the Sabbath, but you don't even do it according to the Law so by your own Law you are a hypocrite and guilty of breaking it. You conveniently make allowances (situational ethics) for yourself but not for others if you think they are not keeping the Sabbath according to your rules. But all this nonsensical talk about keeping the Sabbath just like they did in the OT is utter nonsense anyway because NOBODY KEEPS IT CORRECTLY and Jesus Christ wants us to look to Him and not the Law. Can you look to Jesus in faith and walk pure before Him. And why can't anyone keep the Sabbath the way it was decreed in the OT? Because the flesh is weak.

Rom_8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Don't give me your hybrid way of "keeping the Sabbath". Because that is what the Pharisees kept trying to do and Jesus had this to say to them.
Luk_16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Rom_8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

*****If the term "commandments" always means the 10 commandments, then why are the laws that are not part of the ten commandments but called commandments in Mt 19:16-19 not also included?

You cannot divide up the Law. It is not divided up in the Bible. Jesus nailed everything to the cross.

Col_2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

*****When Jesus was asked, "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" why did Jesus NOT QUOTE from the 10 commandments, but from the abolished ceremonial law of Moses? Matthew_22:36-40

THE LAW OF LIBERTY
*****And here is James quoting from the abolished "ceremonial law", "If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: (James_2:8 ). The Royal Law is not even part of the 10 commandments.

When James is referring to the Law of Liberty, he is referring to the Gospel, which although it is called here a law, is not strictly speaking a law comprised of requirements and enforced by sanctions. Rather, it is a declaration of righteousness and salvation by Christ, an offer of peace and pardon by Him, and a free promise of eternal life through Him. The juxtaposition of the two contradictory terms—“law” and “liberty”—made the point, especially to the Jews, that this was an entirely new way of thinking about both. Paul uses this same technique when he refers to the “law of faith” in Romans_3:27.

The perfect liberty found in Christ fulfills the “perfect law” of the Old Testament because He was the only one who could. Those who come to Him in faith now have freedom from sin’s bondage and are now able to be led of the Spirit now and not the flesh. Christ alone can set us free and give us true liberty (John 8:36).

The Seventh Day Adventist theology really has its claws in you but if you repent of it you can be delivered from its legalism into the true Liberty of Christ.

Axehead

Thegoodground · Jan 14, 2013

Raeneske said:
Scripture speaks for itself. What does this point to: the cross, or creation?

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

When did the day get set apart for holy use? Before sin, or after sin?

Genesis 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

In Creation week, before sin.

What you presented was out of context. I have no doubt, all things shall be brought in subjection to Christ.

My belief says nothing of the sort. I have answered that in the previous post to Axehead. A sick man can scream, "I have Christ, that's all I need". That's simple, and irrefutable. Yes, that's all you need. But if you are sickly, and you dont rest like you are told to you, you will just become more sick. It's how God designed the body. It needs rest. If you don't rest when God told you to, you're just going to be enslaved even more by sin. The light had come, and the invalid rejected the rest. Now, the invalid pays for his deeds.

You are speaking to the natural creation but the sons of God seek a rest with the spiritual creation i.e Christ. You cling to a day which was a shadow of the eteranl rest found in Christ and as such you do not know how to look into the pefect law of Liberty, found in Jesus Christ.

In him is not the keeping of a sign of the Sabbath but rather the promised rest yet to come...therefore what did Christ say concerning the Sabbath day?

And this was why the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things on the Sabbath. But Jesus answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I am working."
(Joh 5:16-17)

Now is this working one day in the week, or everyday alike?

Answer: everyday alike

TGG

Btw you contradicted yourself when saying all things will found in Christ meaning even your hallowed seventh day in the week.

Axehead said:
THE LAW OF LIBERTY
*****And here is James quoting from the abolished "ceremonial law", "If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: (James_2:8 ). The Royal Law is not even part of the 10 commandments.

When James is referring to the Law of Liberty, he is referring to the Gospel, which although it is called here a law, is not strictly speaking a law comprised of requirements and enforced by sanctions. Rather, it is a declaration of righteousness and salvation by Christ, an offer of peace and pardon by Him, and a free promise of eternal life through Him. The juxtaposition of the two contradictory terms—“law” and “liberty”—made the point, especially to the Jews, that this was an entirely new way of thinking about both. Paul uses this same technique when he refers to the “law of faith” in Romans_3:27.

The perfect liberty found in Christ fulfills the “perfect law” of the Old Testament because He was the only one who could. Those who come to Him in faith now have freedom from sin’s bondage and are now able to be led of the Spirit now and not the flesh. Christ alone can set us free and give us true liberty (John 8:36).

The Seventh Day Adventist theology really has its claws in you but if you repent of it you can be delivered from its legalism into the true Liberty of Christ.

Axehead

There is truth above. Thanks Axehead.

Rae can you inform us what precisely is a Sabbath days walk? How far are you allowed to walk on the Sabbath? Do you think Jesus exceeded this legal limit? It was derived from Exo 16:29 and Num 35:4,5 - rather than measuring from the town to your local pastureland, do you measure from your house to your local supermarket? And what written law do you use to jusitify the distance? These quoted or others?

Raeneske · Jan 14, 2013

Axehead said:
 
If the Sabbath will endure forever because it is called "eternal" then won't all the Jewish feasts and circumcision also endure because it is also called eternal in Gen_17:10-14 
 
If the Sabbath will endure forever because it was an eternal sign between God and his people, then shouldn't we also still practice circumcision Gen 17:11 and Passover Ex 12:13 because it too is called an eternal sign between God and his people? 
 
I don't think you know what everlasting means in this context because no one has to observe the outward sign of circumcision. 
 
Why are the terms "ceremonial law" and "moral law" never found in the Bible. Why is the word ceremonial or any of its roots never found in the same verse as the word LAW and why is the word moral or any of its roots never found in the same verse as the word LAW? 
 
Are you making up your own religion? 
 
You take liberty in separating the law of God into the "moral law" and the "ceremonial law". People have heard others say "moral law" and "ceremonial law" so much that they probably think the Bible talks about the law this way. <ul class='bbcol decimal'><li>If there is a distinction between moral and ceremonial laws, why do "God's laws" and "the law of God" contain ceremonial laws. Why do "Moses law" and the "law of Moses" contain moral laws? 
</li><li>If there is a distinction between moral and ceremonial laws, why does the "law of God" command animal sacrifices Lk_2:23-24 and the "law of the Lord" contains burnt offerings 2 Chron_31:3; 1 Chron_16:40? 
</li><li>If there is a distinction between moral and ceremonial laws, then why is the book of the law filled with moral laws not contained in the 10 commandments? 
</li><li>If there is a distinction between the Law of the Lord and the Law of Moses, why in 2 Chron_35:26 are "the acts of Josiah and his deeds of devotion as written in the law of the Lord"? 
</li><li>If there is a distinction between moral and ceremonial laws, then why does the Law of God include new moons, solemn feast days: Ps_81:3-4?</li></ul>
God is not ridiculous about the New Covenant as you are, bringing the law into it. 
 
No, that is not why Jesus did what He did on the Sabbath day. Jesus did what He did on the Sabbath day because of mercy and love. 
 
Mat_12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. 
Mat_12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. 
Mat_12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day. 
 
So, there you have it. God does not want legalistic sacrifice from us in place of love and mercy. And you don't have the ability to judge whether another person is acting in a capacity of love and mercy or not, because you have in your mind that a person should observe the Sabbath in a hybrid way (not even according to the law) as you do. You talk about observing the Sabbath, but you don't even do it according to the Law so by your own Law you are a hypocrite and guilty of breaking it. You conveniently make allowances (situational ethics) for yourself but not for others if you think they are not keeping the Sabbath according to your rules. But all this nonsensical talk about keeping the Sabbath just like they did in the OT is utter nonsense anyway because NOBODY KEEPS IT CORRECTLY and Jesus Christ wants us to look to Him and not the Law. Can you look to Jesus in faith and walk pure before Him. And why can't anyone keep the Sabbath the way it was decreed in the OT? Because the flesh is weak. 
 
Rom_8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 
 
Don't give me your hybrid way of "keeping the Sabbath". Because that is what the Pharisees kept trying to do and Jesus had this to say to them. 
Luk_16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. 
 
Rom_8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 
 
*****If the term "commandments" always means the 10 commandments, then why are the laws that are not part of the ten commandments but called commandments in Mt 19:16-19 not also included? 
 
You cannot divide up the Law. It is not divided up in the Bible. Jesus nailed everything to the cross. 
 
Col_2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 
 
*****When Jesus was asked, "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" why did Jesus NOT QUOTE from the 10 commandments, but from the abolished ceremonial law of Moses? Matthew_22:36-40 
 
THE LAW OF LIBERTY 
*****And here is James quoting from the abolished "ceremonial law", "If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: (James_2:8 ). The Royal Law is not even part of the 10 commandments. 
 
When James is referring to the Law of Liberty, he is referring to the Gospel, which although it is called here a law, is not strictly speaking a law comprised of requirements and enforced by sanctions. Rather, it is a declaration of righteousness and salvation by Christ, an offer of peace and pardon by Him, and a free promise of eternal life through Him. The juxtaposition of the two contradictory terms—“law” and “liberty”—made the point, especially to the Jews, that this was an entirely new way of thinking about both. Paul uses this same technique when he refers to the “law of faith” in <a href='http://biblia.com/bible/kjv/Romans%203.27'>Romans_3:27</a>. 
 
The perfect liberty found in Christ fulfills the “perfect law” of the Old Testament because He was the only one who could. Those who come to Him in faith now have freedom from sin’s bondage and are now able to be led of the Spirit now and not the flesh. Christ alone can set us free and give us true liberty (<a href='http://biblia.com/bible/kjv/John%208.36'>John 8:36</a>). 
 
The Seventh Day Adventist theology really has its claws in you but if you repent of it you can be delivered from its legalism into the true Liberty of Christ. 
 
Axehead

I have explained to you why the Sabbath is still in place. The simple fact, that the Sabbath is in the 10 Commandments, is the reason it is still exists to this very day.

Moral and Ceremonial Law are just terms used. It's like the term "escatology" or when someone will talk about a "trinity". They are terms used to talk about specific things. But how is this an argument against the Sabbath Day?

Here is the seperation made in scripture.

Moses law contained in ordiances (A) Called "Law of Moses" Luke 2:22

God's Law, Royal Law (B): Called "The law of the Lord" Isaiah 5:24

(A) : Called "Law contained in ordinances" Ephesians 2:15

(B) : Called "The royal law" James 2:8

(A) : Written by Moses in a book. 2Chronicals 35:12

(B) : Written by God in stone. Exodus 31:18; 32:16

(A) : Placed beside the Ark. Deuteronomy 31:26

(B) : Placed inside the ark. Exodus 40:20

(A) : Ended at the cross. Ephesians 2:15

(B) : Will stand forever. Luke 16:17

(A) : Added because of sin. Galatians 3:19

(B) : Points out sin. Romans 7:7; 3:20

(A) : Contrary to us, against us. Colossians 2:14-16

(B) : Not grievous. 1John 5:3

(A) : Carnal. Hebrews 7:16

(B) : Spiritual. Romans 7:14

(A) : Made nothing perfect. Hebrews 7:19

(B) : Perfect. Psalm 19:7

(A) : Judges no one. Colossians 2:14-16

(B) : Judges all people. James 2:10-12

Jesus's mercy and love did not break the Sabbath Day. Healing on the Sabbath Day does not break the Sabbath. It never did, it only breaks the legalistic rules which the Pharisees had employed. If they had known that, they would not have condemned the guiltless. Again, the law never changed. None of the 10 Commandments did. All that changed was the understanding of it, for men at least. God always knew how the Law was to be kept. There is no hybrid way of keeping. There is keeping it, the way it was meant to be kept. Not bondage, with ridiculous regulation, but with understanding, and wisdom.

Romans 13:8-10 proves Love thy neighbour as thyself is a brief comprehension of commandments 5-10. A brief comprehension is just a summary. So what is love? Is love breaking those commandments? No, Love is, fulfilling the law. That's what love is. So if you love me, or your Father, you will keep those Commandments.

Romans 6:14-15 is plain. You are not under the law, but under grace. Does it stop there? No. It then says, shall we sin (1 John 3:4 sin is the transgression of the law) No. In other words: Can you break the law, although you are not under it? No.

Jesus quoted those, because those are in fact, the great commandments. Romans 13:8-10 shows you, those great commandments encompass The 10 Commandments. It's not like principles of love are completely silenced in Leviticus.

More accusations. If I have spoken evil, bear witness of that evil. I keep the Sabbath the way it is supposed to be kept. The Pharisees had it wrong and agreeing that Jesus had broken the Sabbath, is to side with the Pharisees. But the Pharisees simply did not understand how to keep the Sabbath. They did not understand how the Lord wanted it to be kept. The Lord kept it, the way He wanted it to be kept. And was He found keeping the Sabbath? Absolutely. Was He found in the Synagogues on the Sabbath? Absolutely. Luke 4:16.

It is called the law of liberty, because it is clear: Keeping the Commandments proves you have liberty. If you are breaking them, you are a slave to sin. Breaking the Commandments is not liberty. It is sin. And sin is not liberty, in any sense of the word. It is slavery to the prince of darkness.

When James was talking about the law of liberty, he was talking about the 10 Commandments. Take a look at James 2:10-12. If you taught to keep them, and broke them, you become a transgressor of the 10 Commandments. So James is plain: Speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the Law of Liberty. Literally, what you preach, do, as we all shall be judged by the Law of Liberty.

Whosoever is born of God, sinneth not. Go and sin no more. The saints, keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. The love of God, that we keep His commandments. The dragon was wroth with the woman, who keep the commandments of God.

You can keep the 10 Commandments. On your own? Never. With Jesus? Yes. Sometimes you will make a mistake. What should you do then? Repent. And then what? Never worry about the law ever again? No. "Go, and sin no more".

I'm not denying at looking towards Jesus, and that He makes us free. It was a promise, you shall be free indeed. But from what? Free from the Commandments? No, free from sin. Jesus said Himself, the great ones in Heaven are those that teach and do those commandments. The power of godliness enables you to keep the Commandments. "I can do all things through Christ". Can you resist temptation, and keep the law of God through Christ? Yes.

Those who need to repent, are those found trying to erase Commandment #4. Those who think they can change God's time and law. God's law is immutable. It's as Sacred as His throne. If it could be changed, or done away with, Jesus would never have had to die. But the simple fact that Jesus had to die to save man, is proof that the 10 Commandments cannot be taken away. Final proof, the 10 Commandments are immutable:

Exodus 40:20 And he took and put the testimony into the ark, and set the staves on the ark, and put the mercy seat above upon the ark:

Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Thegoodground said:
You are speaking to the natural creation but the sons of God seek a rest with the spiritual creation i.e Christ. You cling to a day which was a shadow of the eteranl rest found in Christ and as such you do not know how to look into the pefect law of Liberty, found in Jesus Christ.

In him is not the keeping of a sign of the Sabbath but rather the promised rest yet to come...therefore what did Christ say concerning the Sabbath day?

And this was why the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things on the Sabbath. But Jesus answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I am working." 
(Joh 5:16-17) 
 
Now is this working one day in the week, or everyday alike? 
 
Answer: everyday alike 
 
TGG 
 
Btw you contradicted yourself when saying all things will found in Christ meaning even your hallowed seventh day in the week.

Spiritual creation? Sounds a little bit like you're calling Christ a created being... Not sure what you mean by that.

Jesus Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath, set the day apart for Holy Use, in creation week. While it is a day for rest, it was also a day for Holy use. The Sabbath is both natural and spiritual.

The day is not a shadow. I have proved this countless times. The shadows pointed to the cross. Where does Exodus 20:11 point? Thankyou.

The perfect law of liberty is a transcript of that Holy Character. It is a transcript of Jesus Christ. Christ rested the 7th Day, and set it apart for Holy use. Then as a human, Christ kept the Sabbath. James 2:10-12 tells you what the perfect law of liberty is. Liberty is not breaking the commandments. That's enslavement to the prince of darkness.

Christ was not doing sinful work. Christ was working in harmony with the Sabbath Commandment. The Pharisees could not understand the spiritual nature of the Sabbath, at all. Therefore anything that looked like work to them, they freaked out for. That's why they couldn't understand the mercy involved in the Sabbath. They jumped up saying, "He's breaking the Sabbath, look at him heal!!!" Christians do the same thing today. "Look, see, Jesus broke the Sabbath". Why are they siding with the Pharisees? Because even they, Christians, do not understand the true spiritual nature of the law. If they did, they could explain why Jesus was not breaking the Sabbath. They call Jesus the Sabbath. Jesus is not the Sabbath. Jesus is [/b]The Saviour[/b]. They say the Sabbath was a portrayel of the 1,000 years. I can agree to the fact that the Sabbath is a 6/1 approach, as is the world a 6,000/1,000 approach. But the obvious remains, does that 6/1 point to the cross, or does it specifically tell you itself, it points to creation week? Exodus 20:11.

Christ went about working for the Kingdom. Does that profane the Sabbath? Does teaching the gospel, and healing the sick profane the Sabbath? No. Mercy, and using the day in a Holy Way, as it was set apart to be Holy, in Genesis.

So, did Christ actually break the Sabbath? Not a chance.

P.S. Don't ask, and set up distances to go please. Thankyou. That is legalism.

What did God tell them in Exodus not to go out of their places for? To gather food. What's that got to do with distance traveled? Nothing.

Numbers has nothing to do with the Sabbath. That is so out of context... What do the suburbs have to do with a Sabbath Day journey?

Axehead · Jan 14, 2013

Raeneske:
Jesus's mercy and love did not break the Sabbath Day. Healing on the Sabbath Day does not break the Sabbath. It never did, it only breaks the legalistic rules which the Pharisees had employed. If they had known that, they would not have condemned the guiltless. Again, the law never changed. None of the 10 Commandments did. All that changed was the understanding of it, for men at least. God always knew how the Law was to be kept. There is no hybrid way of keeping. There is keeping it, the way it was meant to be kept. Not bondage, with ridiculous regulation, but with understanding, and wisdom.

Where did you get this understanding and wisdom? From where in the Bible?

Raeneske:
More accusations. If I have spoken evil, bear witness of that evil. I keep the Sabbath the way it is supposed to be kept. The Pharisees had it wrong and agreeing that Jesus had broken the Sabbath, is to side with the Pharisees. But the Pharisees simply did not understand how to keep the Sabbath. They did not understand how the Lord wanted it to be kept. The Lord kept it, the way He wanted it to be kept. And was He found keeping the Sabbath? Absolutely. Was He found in the Synagogues on the Sabbath? Absolutely. Luke 4:16.

And why wouldn't the "teachers of the law" know how to keep the Sabbath? Can you tell us how the Lord wants us to keep it? Tell us all the little details. What you can do and what you can't do. Where you can go and where you can't go. What you can think or talk about and what you can't.

Don't you know that everything a Christian does that is not sin is a holy thing? When we work, we are working for the Lord and obeying Him to honor our employer and be a good witness of Christ, not bringing shame to His name.

What about picking corn on the Sabbath day? That would be "going out of your place to gather food". Seems to me that you could equate someone earning some money on the Sabbath so they could go to the grocery store and pick a bag of corn out of the freezer and buy it for their hungry family.

Raeneske:
Christ was not doing sinful work. Christ was working in harmony with the Sabbath Commandment. The Pharisees could not understand the spiritual nature of the Sabbath, at all. Therefore anything that looked like work to them, they freaked out for.

Picking corn looks like work to anybody, not just the Pharisees. Doesn't picking corn look like work to you?

You are very confused young man. Most of what you just said does not make sense.

Why are there moral commandments in the "Ceremonial law".
If there is a distinction between moral and ceremonial laws, why do "God's laws" and "the law of God" contain ceremonial laws. Why do "Moses law" and the "law of Moses" contain moral laws?
If there is a distinction between moral and ceremonial laws, then why is the book of the law filled with moral laws not contained in the 10 commandments?
If there is a distinction between moral and ceremonial laws, then why does the Law of God include new moons, solemn feast days: Ps 81:3-4? Do you keep those?
If the Sabbath is a moral law, why did Jesus say that David, the priests, and a man with his donkey could all break the Sabbath without sin? Mt 12:1-14; Mk 2:23f, Lk 13:10-17; 14:1-6 Jn 5:8-18; 7:19-24; 9:14-16

I get to enjoy the Sabbath 365 days a year because the Lord is my Sabbath Rest.

Axehead

Thegoodground said:
There is truth above. Thanks Axehead.

Rae can you inform us what precisely is a Sabbath days walk? How far are you allowed to walk on the Sabbath? Do you think Jesus exceeded this legal limit? It was derived from Exo 16:29 and Num 35:4,5 - rather than measuring from the town to your local pastureland, do you measure from your house to

Thank you GG,

I have been blessed by your posts too and that you have come to know Christ as your Sabbath.

mjrhealth · Jan 14, 2013

Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Heb_10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Heb_10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

Nothing else to say.

In all His love

Axehead · Jan 14, 2013

mjrhealth said:
Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Heb_10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Heb_10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

Nothing else to say.

In all His love

Those are perfect verses, MJR. What more can be said?

Matt_11:28-30 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Isa_11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Sabbath

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