Sabbath

[Mungo]

Mungo, I'm going to have to say there is a problem with the conclusions you are drawing, because the Bible does in fact make the disctinction between both laws many times, as posted previously. Yes, it just so happened that Jesus said "Defraud not" as well, as other 10 Commandments. This however never implies that he never made a distinction, because that is very contrary to the Word of God.

Sorry but tou cannot dismiss Jesus making no distinction between the Ten Commandments and other Commandments as "it just so happened" as though it was some kind of abberation on Jesus part that we can ignore.

You also try to ignore my second point::
Jesus also said
You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God, in order to keep your tradition! For Moses said, 'Honour your father and your mother’ (Mk 7:9-10)
Was 'Honour your father and your mother ‘Moses Law’ or the Ten Commandments?

James 1:22,25 - But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

James 2:11,12 - For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Here we are told to be doers of the word, and not only hearers, deceiving ourselves. If we look at the perfect law of liberty, and continue therein, we shall be blessed. Before us is set a blessing. But what is the law of liberty? It just so happens to be the 10 commandments. So if you teach do not commit adultery and do not kill, yet you do not commit adultery and yet kill, you are a transgressor of the law. James is very clearly refering to the 10 commandments here. So, in regards to the 10 commandments, what does James have to say about it?

James 2:10 - For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

There are many keepers of 9 commandments, but refuse to keep number 4 upon learning about it. James was very clear, keep one, keep them all. Break one, break them all. Number 4 is no different, although the Christian world has forgotten about it.

James does not equate the law of liberty with the Ten Commandments. James regards all of the Law as one.

If you really fulfil the royal law, according to the scripture, "You shall love your neighbour as yourself," you do well. (Jas 2:8)
For James the “royal law” was “You shall love your neighbour as yourself," – taken from Lev 19:18. That is the same chapter that Jesus quoted from.

Lev 19 starts “And the LORD said to Moses” – God is giving instructions to Moses.
The list contains a wide mixture of commands. Some echo some of the Ten Commandments, some are very different
They all start with “You shall not….” - just as in the Ten Commandments
Here are a few:
"You shall not steal, nor deal falsely, nor lie to one another” (vs 11)
“you shall not swear by my name falsely, and so profane the name of your God" (vs 12)
“You shall not go up and down as a slanderer among your people,” (vs 16)
"You shall not hate your brother in your heart" (vs 17)
“You shall not round off the hair on your temples or mar the edges of your beard.”(vs 27).
The chapter finishes with “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt” just as it says before the Ten Commandments.

These are all commands of God just as much as the Ten Commandments.

You quote from Jas 2:10,11 &,12. But fail to quote the verse before. Why?
But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
Is partiality in the Ten Commanments?
No, but James says that if you show partiality the law convicts you of sin.

To James the law is one, all of it, not just the Ten Commandments.

To Jews the Law is one, not just the Ten Commandments

 

[John_8:32]

Sorry but tou cannot dismiss Jesus making no distinction between the Ten Commandments and other Commandments as "it just so happened" as though it was some kind of abberation on Jesus part that we can ignore.

But you can dismiss the clear scriptural evidence that the Law of God and the law of Moses are separate?

 

[Mungo]

Explain how Heaven and earth have passed away please? I leave for work each morning before sunrise and I keep seeing these stars and moon up in the heavens. I also walk across my driveway to my car and guess what, the earth is still beneath my feet...

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

We need to examine carefully what Jesus actually said. There is a double condition:
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law (condition#1),
till all be fulfilled (condition #2).

In other words:
the law will not ever pass away (condition #1)
unless it is fulfilled first (#condition #2).

Now Jesus says he has come to fulfil the Law – and he does.
So when Jesus fulfilled the law it became obsolete, it passed away.

You believe that we do not need to keep the Sabbath, because it is fulfilled. How does that work for murder, theft and adultery?

As I have explained previously murder and adultery are part of God’s moral laws that transcend time and covenants. The Ten Commandments are an implementation (or codification)of God’s moral laws for the Jews (or most of them are). God’s moral laws are also found elsewhere in the Mosaic Law, outside of the Ten Commandments (e.g. fornication and fraud).

When the Law of Moses was abolished so was that implementation of God’s moral laws. But not the moral laws themselves.

Murder and adultery (for example) were condemned well before the Ten Commandments and are condemned in the New Testament.

However Sabbath keeping was not a moral law. It was a sign of the Sinai Covenant, a covenant that has now been abolished.

Interesting redefinition here, you are saying that to fulfill something does away with it. My employer would like for me to fulfill my purpose for employment, which is engineering projects for him. So everytime I complete or fulfill the project, it magically vanishes away and does not exist any more?

A Covenant is a form of contract. It binds two sides to do something. When the contract is fulfilled the two parties are no longer bound by it.

When I buy something over the Internet (for example) I agree to pay a sum of money and the seller agrees to supply it. We have a binding contract. When I have paid and the item has been delivered the contract is fulfilled and neither party is bound by that contract any longer.

Of course there may be a warranty and in that case the contract continues for the duration of the warranty. When the warranty expires the contract is fulfilled and is obsolete. Nether party is bound by it any more.

But you can dismiss the clear scriptural evidence that the Law of God and the law of Moses are separate?

And I gave clear scriptural evidence that they are the same thing (post #54)

 

[whitestone]

I've entered into Christ's REST in the early 80's. Since then I stay in His Rest 24/7 having ceased from my own labors and entered into the promised land. There are many unbelievers who deny this is so for me, in affect, denying it from themselves unfortunately. But that doesn't affect my Rest, because the Sabbath was made for me and that is exactly how it is meant to be observed in the New Covenant. Not 'one day a week' as in the O.T. 'shadow/type' but in "The Day of the Lord" having been filled with the very person self of the Lord of Sabbaoth.. All I can say to those who don't see the reality of the true meaning of the Sabbath, but only worship and observe the "type"... is;
'Believe' and enter while it is called To Day! (Heb 4)

Whitestone

 

[Rex]

I've entered into Christ's REST in the early 80's. Since then I stay in His Rest 24/7 having ceased from my own labors and entered into the promised land. There are many unbelievers who deny this is so for me, in affect, denying it from themselves unfortunately. But that doesn't affect my Rest, because the Sabbath was made for me and that is exactly how it is meant to be observed in the New Covenant. Not 'one day a week' as in the O.T. 'shadow/type' but in "The Day of the Lord" having been filled with the very person self of the Lord of Sabbaoth.. All I can say to those who don't see the reality of the true meaning of the Sabbath, but only worship and observe the "type"... is;
'Believe' and enter while it is called To Day! (Heb 4)

Whitestone

That is the law fulfilled
Romans 8:2

 

[Trekson]

Hi John, Your words: "Interesting redefinition here, you are saying that to fulfill something does away with it. My employer would like for me to fulfill my purpose for employment, which is engineering projects for him. So everytime I complete or fulfill the project, it magically vanishes away and does not exist any more?"

I would assume your employer actually expects you to complete a project at some point and move onto something else. If your job is completed, while the project remains, it should no longer concern you.

I like the way the AMP puts Matt. 5:18 - [sup] "[/sup]For truly I tell you, until the sky and earth pass away and perish, not one smallest letter nor one little hook [identifying certain Hebrew letters] will pass from the Law until all things [it foreshadows] are accomplished."

The first part of this verse isn't a prophecy, it's an expression like "I'll love you forever", but the important part is the last phrase. Are you saying that what Christ did on the cross wasn't sufficient to accomplish the things the law foreshadowed? In all things regarding the law, as Christ said, "It is finished". Now on to the next question which should sum it all up.

Your words: "You believe that we do not need to keep the Sabbath, because it is fulfilled. How does that work for murder, theft and adultery?"

Well, it's really quite simple. During the sermon on the mount, Christ was re-writing the law as He taught, to teach the manner it was to be kept. For example read these verses on your own Matt. 5:21,27,31,33,38,43. In all these verses Christ is quoting an aspect of the law, however, in the following verses of each one Christ says..."But I say to you..." and He re-writes the way they should be interpreted. One good example is Matt. 5:27-28 - "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
[sup]28 [/sup]But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."

In one way, Christ upped the ante and made the law harder to keep by this type of verse, but when you see the end game it makes things clearer. So, logically speaking, if we can break the law by thinking about it, then we can keep the law by thinking about it. That's why we have teachings from Paul like this one, Phil. 4:8 - "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things."

So, if we don't actually have to have sex with a woman to be guilty of adultery, or if just being angery with our brother we get the same curse as if we murdered him, then by thinking holy and righteous thoughts we are keeping the sabbath. We are to pray without ceasing, in this way we keep the sabbath. The Holy Spirit is in our hearts 24/7, in this way we keep the sabbath.

We don't eliminate the sabbath but we are to abstain from the outward appearances of keeping the lawfullness of the sabbath. We keep it by the law of liberty and freedom, not by self imposing rules and regulations regarding the sabbath that have been completed at the cross. Regarding the sins you mentioned, the difference is, the penalty has been paid. All murderers, thieves and adulterers have had their penalty paid, eternally. While they still may have to be bound by the laws of man regarding sentencing, if they have truly repented and turned to Christ, then they are saved and it will be just as if they'd never sinned.

You know as well as I do that the law of sin and death involves things far more in number than just the 10 commandments, but the point is, when you sin, do you have to go flipping thru the scriptures to see if you have, or does the Holy Spirit convict you and let you know you've sinned regardless of how big or small that particular sin was? We have this law in our hearts and because of this knowledge we can keep ourselves from sinning in most cases and that same process allows us to keep the sabbath in our hearts without the outer trappings that just bind us again unto something that Christ has freed us from.

 

[John_8:32]

I've entered into Christ's REST in the early 80's. Since then I stay in His Rest 24/7 having ceased from my own labors and entered into the promised land. There are many unbelievers who deny this is so for me, in affect, denying it from themselves unfortunately. But that doesn't affect my Rest, because the Sabbath was made for me and that is exactly how it is meant to be observed in the New Covenant. Not 'one day a week' as in the O.T. 'shadow/type' but in "The Day of the Lord" having been filled with the very person self of the Lord of Sabbaoth.. All I can say to those who don't see the reality of the true meaning of the Sabbath, but only worship and observe the "type"... is;
'Believe' and enter while it is called To Day! (Heb 4)

Whitestone

When do you work?

We need to examine carefully what Jesus actually said. There is a double condition:
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law (condition#1),
till all be fulfilled (condition #2).

In other words:
the law will not ever pass away (condition #1)
unless it is fulfilled first (#condition #2).

Now Jesus says he has come to fulfil the Law – and he does.
So when Jesus fulfilled the law it became obsolete, it passed away.

Whoa there big guy, Jesus fulfilled the law in that He came to magnify it...

Isa 42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

Nowhere does the scripture say the Law is obsolete. It does say the agreement (Old Covenant) is BECOMING (has not yet fully become) obsolete. The Old Covenant will become obsolete and the New Covenant be in effect full force and worldwide at His coming.

And as for the conditions...

There are two...

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Condition #1: Heaven and earth must pass away. This has not happened yet.
Condition #2: Till all be fulfilled. This has not happened yet either. Usually, one goes to Mat 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 here to show that Christ has not returned, but I think it would be interesting to use a lesser quoted scripture here...

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Christ has not bodily returned to the earth yet...

Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
Zec 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
Zec 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
Zec 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

To my knowledge this has not occurred...

Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

And you are living proof that this has not occurred...

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Nope, all is not fulfilled yet.

As I have explained previously murder and adultery are part of God’s moral laws that transcend time and covenants. The Ten Commandments are an implementation (or codification)of God’s moral laws for the Jews (or most of them are). God’s moral laws are also found elsewhere in the Mosaic Law, outside of the Ten Commandments (e.g. fornication and fraud).

When the Law of Moses was abolished so was that implementation of God’s moral laws. But not the moral laws themselves.

Show me the scriptures that prove that. There are none that separate out the Sabbath from the other nine.

Murder and adultery (for example) were condemned well before the Ten Commandments

No, that is incorrect. You are assuming something here that the scripture does not say. In point of fact, it actually says the opposite...

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

And what is transgression?

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

And what is the penalty for sin...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

There is no sin where there is no law...

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Yet the penalty for sin was exacted from Adam to Moses...

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

The ONLY conclusion one can draw here is that there was law from Adam to Moses and the because death is the penalty for sin and death reigned from Adam to Moses, there must have been law from Adam to Moses. In fact, one can find each of the Ten Commandments from Gen 1:1 to Ex 19:25 either stated or in principle. by principle I mean something obvious, not a nebulous interpretation. A good example is that of Abimelech...

Gen 20:3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife.

Gen 20:8 Therefore Abimelech rose early in the morning, and called all his servants, and told all these things in their ears: and the men were sore afraid.

Why were they afraid? They knew that adultery was sin and the penalty for sin was death...

Gen 20:9 Then Abimelech called Abraham, and said unto him, What hast thou done unto us? and what have I offended thee, that thou hast brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? thou hast done deeds unto me that ought not to be done.

and are condemned in the New Testament.

Yes, in fact we can see this in Mat 5, 6 and 7 where Christ is magnifying the law...

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

An example...

Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Mat 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

One can simply read these chapters and see that the Law is ever more binding with a spiritual aspect.

However Sabbath keeping was not a moral law. It was a sign of the Sinai Covenant, a covenant that has now been abolished.

Where is this separation made? Certainly not in Ex 20 or Deut 5. The Ten Commandments are the Ten Commandments.

A Covenant is a form of contract. It binds two sides to do something. When the contract is fulfilled the two parties are no longer bound by it.

The Covenant (contract) is not the same thing as the terms. The terms of the Covenant were the Laws. The agreement or Covenant is this...

Exo 24:7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.

Just a point of accuracy here, the Old Covenant is not completely passed away...

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Or as the NKJV has it...

Heb 8:13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

When I buy something over the Internet (for example) I agree to pay a sum of money and the seller agrees to supply it. We have a binding contract. When I have paid and the item has been delivered the contract is fulfilled and neither party is bound by that contract any longer.

Of course there may be a warranty and in that case the contract continues for the duration of the warranty. When the warranty expires the contract is fulfilled and is obsolete. Nether party is bound by it any more.



And I gave clear scriptural evidence that they are the same thing (post #54)

Ah but they are not. The Law is not the same thing as the Covenant, in fact the New Covenant is explained as writing the same law in a different place. Whereas the OC was the writing of the Law on tables of stone, the NC is the writing of the Law in our hearts and minds...

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

This has not happened yet, but will at the return of Christ and during the Millenium.

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Not yet, but it is coming (hopefully) soon.

Just a point I feel the need to make is that no amount of perfect law keeping will give live, Rom 6:23 plainly says that it is the gift of God. One does not earn salvation by law keeping, but one may lose salvation by intentional law breaking...

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
Heb 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Your words: "You believe that we do not need to keep the Sabbath, because it is fulfilled. How does that work for murder, theft and adultery?"

Well, it's really quite simple. During the sermon on the mount, Christ was re-writing the law as He taught, to teach the manner it was to be kept. For example read these verses on your own Matt. 5:21,27,31,33,38,43. In all these verses Christ is quoting an aspect of the law, however, in the following verses of each one Christ says..."But I say to you..." and He re-writes the way they should be interpreted. One good example is Matt. 5:27-28 - "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
[sup]28 [/sup]But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."

In one way, Christ upped the ante and made the law harder to keep by this type of verse, but when you see the end game it makes things clearer. So, logically speaking, if we can break the law by thinking about it, then we can keep the law by thinking about it. That's why we have teachings from Paul like this one, Phil. 4:8 - "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things."

So, if we don't actually have to have sex with a woman to be guilty of adultery, or if just being angery with our brother we get the same curse as if we murdered him, then by thinking holy and righteous thoughts we are keeping the sabbath. We are to pray without ceasing, in this way we keep the sabbath. The Holy Spirit is in our hearts 24/7, in this way we keep the sabbath.

Let's use your example, you do agree that thinking lustful thoughts about a woman you are not married to is adultery, don't you? Well then is the physical act of having sex with another woman other than your wife adultery?

So thinking holy thoughts is keeping the Sabbath? All the while breaking the letter of the law is perfectly acceptable?

Try killing someone and telling the judge I was actually thinking very nice thoughts about that person and see how that works out for you. I think we both know that is foolish reasoning.

 

[Mungo]

Whoa there big guy, Jesus fulfilled the law in that He came to magnify it...

Isa 42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

Is 42
Vs 1 "Behold my servant,….." This is a messianic prophecy.
Who is my servant? Answer - Jesus
Whose servant is Jesus here? Answer comes in verse 5 “Thus says God, the LORD, who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread forth the earth”.

Its is the same God, the LORD who says in verse 21 “The LORD was pleased, for his righteousness' sake, to magnify his law and make it glorious.”

This is nothing to do with Jesus fulfilling the Law.

 

[John_8:32]

Is 42
Vs 1 "Behold my servant,….." This is a messianic prophecy.
Who is my servant? Answer - Jesus
Whose servant is Jesus here? Answer comes in verse 5 “Thus says God, the LORD, who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread forth the earth”.

Its is the same God, the LORD who says in verse 21 “The LORD was pleased, for his righteousness' sake, to magnify his law and make it glorious.”

This is nothing to do with Jesus fulfilling the Law.

I agree, the Servant of Isa 42 is Jesus Christ. Who is the Lord of Ex 20? It is one and the same, Jesus Christ. The One who created the Sabbath, blessed it and sancitified it in Gen 2, the one who stated the Law in Ex 20 and also the one who does not change...

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

So, were the Ten Commandments some gigantic mistake? Did He come to abolish the very Law He spoke on Mt. Sinai and wrote with His own finger?

 

[Mungo]

Nowhere does the scripture say the Law is obsolete. It does say the agreement (Old Covenant) is BECOMING (has not yet fully become) obsolete. The Old Covenant will become obsolete and the New Covenant be in effect full force and worldwide at His coming.

The New Covenant uis in effect NOW.

It came into effect when Jesus died on the cross

Let us look at the case for the abolition of the OT Law starting with St. Paul’s letter to the Romans.
Are you unaware, brothers (for I am speaking to people who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over one as long as one lives? Thus a married woman is bound by law to her living husband; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law in respect to her husband. Consequently, while her husband is alive she will be called an adulteress if she consorts with another man. But if her husband dies she is free from that law, and she is not an adulteress if she consorts with another man.
In the same way, my brothers, you also were put to death to the law through the body of Christ, so that you might belong to another, to the one who was raised from the dead in order that we might bear fruit for God. For when we were in the flesh, our sinful passions, awakened by the law, worked in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are released from the law, dead to what held us captive, so that we may serve in the newness of the spirit and not under the obsolete letter. (Rom 7:1-6)
We are put to death to the Law

We are released from the Law

Note particularly that this is particularly relevant because God considered himself “married” to Israel. When Jesus died the Covenant ended and Jesus was free to take a new bride – the Church

Galatians 3, especially:
Before faith came, we were held in custody under law, confined for the faith that was to be revealed. Consequently, the law was our disciplinarian for Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a disciplinarian. (Gal 3:23-25).
We are not under the Law

Note also Gal 5: 4
You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

For he is our peace, he who made both one and broke down the dividing wall of enmity, through his flesh, abolishing the law with its commandments and legal claims, (Eph 2:14-15)
The Law has been abolished.

The Book of Hebrews makes this replacement of the Old Covenant by the New very clear.
On the one hand, a former commandment is annulled because of its weakness and uselessness, for the law brought nothing to perfection; on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God. (Heb 7:18-19)

When there is a change of priesthood, there is necessarily a change of law as well. (Heb 7:12)
There is a change in the law


When he speaks of a “new” covenant, he declares the first one obsolete. And what has become obsolete and has grown old is close to disappearing (Heb 8:13)
The Old Covenant has been declared obsolete

He takes away the first to establish the second (Heb 10:9)
The first Covenant is taken away.

I agree, the Servant of Isa 42 is Jesus Christ. Who is the Lord of Ex 20? It is one and the same, Jesus Christ. The One who created the Sabbath, blessed it and sancitified it in Gen 2, the one who stated the Law in Ex 20 and also the one who does not change...

The issue is who is the Lord in Is 42.

Is 42:1 "Behold my servant,….”

If Jesus is the Lord in Is 42 then Jesus is talking about himself as MY servant. That makes no sense.

So, were the Ten Commandments some gigantic mistake? Did He come to abolish the very Law He spoke on Mt. Sinai and wrote with His own finger?

No they were not a mistake. They were given to the Jews as part of their Covenant; the Covenant that has been abolished.

Yes he abolished that implementation of His moral Law.

He gave them in a new form in the New Testament.

For example adultery
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (Mt 5:27-28)

Let marriage be honoured among all and the marriage bed be kept undefiled, for God will judge the immoral and adulterers. (Hb 13:4)

And murder:
Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life remaining in him. (1Jn 3:15)

“You have heard that it was said to your ancestors, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you, whoever is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, ‘Raqa,’ will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ will be liable to fiery Gehenna. (Mt 5:21-22)

And we can find the other commandments in the NT except for sabbath keeping.
Nowhere is sabbath keeping commanded in the NT

 

[John_8:32]

The New Covenant uis in effect NOW.

Are you sure you are under the New Covenant?

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord,

Now this was written twenty some years after the crucifixion and Paul is still speaking of it in future terms...

"The days come'

when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Notice to whom the Covenant is made with? Which tribe are you from?

Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

And here we go again, the Covenant is the writing of the Law of God in our hearts and minds.

It came into effect when Jesus died on the cross

For whom?

Let us look at the case for the abolition of the OT Law starting with St. Paul’s letter to the Romans.
Are you unaware, brothers (for I am speaking to people who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over one as long as one lives? Thus a married woman is bound by law to her living husband; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law in respect to her husband. Consequently, while her husband is alive she will be called an adulteress if she consorts with another man. But if her husband dies she is free from that law, and she is not an adulteress if she consorts with another man.
In the same way, my brothers, you also were put to death to the law through the body of Christ, so that you might belong to another, to the one who was raised from the dead in order that we might bear fruit for God. For when we were in the flesh, our sinful passions, awakened by the law, worked in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are released from the law, dead to what held us captive, so that we may serve in the newness of the spirit and not under the obsolete letter. (Rom 7:1-6)
We are put to death to the Law

We are released from the Law

If you commit a heinous crime, say murder, and you are found guilty and the judge sentences you to 15 minutes in Ole Sparky. A wonderful man comes into the court room at that moment and says to the Judge, "I know this man is guilty and deserves the punishment, but I will take it for him." and the Judge agrees.

You are released from the law. Is it now OK to go out and murder again? Did that do away with the law or was your penalty paid for you by someone else?

Note particularly that this is particularly relevant because God considered himself “married” to Israel. When Jesus died the Covenant ended and Jesus was free to take a new bride – the Church

Galatians 3, especially:
Before faith came, we were held in custody under law, confined for the faith that was to be revealed. Consequently, the law was our disciplinarian for Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a disciplinarian. (Gal 3:23-25).
We are not under the Law

Note also Gal 5: 4
You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

For he is our peace, he who made both one and broke down the dividing wall of enmity, through his flesh, abolishing the law with its commandments and legal claims, (Eph 2:14-15)
The Law has been abolished.

The Book of Hebrews makes this replacement of the Old Covenant by the New very clear.
On the one hand, a former commandment is annulled because of its weakness and uselessness, for the law brought nothing to perfection; on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God. (Heb 7:18-19)

When there is a change of priesthood, there is necessarily a change of law as well. (Heb 7:12)
There is a change in the law


When he speaks of a “new” covenant, he declares the first one obsolete. And what has become obsolete and has grown old is close to disappearing (Heb 8:13)
The Old Covenant has been declared obsolete

He takes away the first to establish the second (Heb 10:9)
The first Covenant is taken away.

So instead of answering each one of your points, let me ask you a question...

If the law is done away, why do I need a Savior? If there is no law, there is no sin...

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

If there is no sin, there is no penalty for sin...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

And since there is no law, I have no sin for sin is...

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

So I don't need a Savior because without law there is no sin.

That is a complete afront to the very God who made me. He willingly took my death penalty so that I may live, and I owe Him everything for His loving sacrifice for me. In fact, I love Him so much that I will obey Him to my very best abilities. And because He loves me so much, when I do falter and fail, He lovingly applies His sacrifice in my stead.

 

[Mungo]

And as for the conditions...

There are two...

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Condition #1: Heaven and earth must pass away. This has not happened yet.
Condition #2: Till all be fulfilled. This has not happened yet either. Usually, one goes to Mat 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 here to show that Christ has not returned, but I think it would be interesting to use a lesser quoted scripture here...

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Christ has not bodily returned to the earth yet...

Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
Zec 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
Zec 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
Zec 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

To my knowledge this has not occurred...

Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

And you are living proof that this has not occurred...

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Nope, all is not fulfilled yet.

Mt 5:17-18)
Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.

Jesus is saying that the Law will never pass away until it is fulfilled. But he fulfilled it and so it has passed away.

If you think it has not passed away, not one jot or tittle then where are ceremonial laws? Where are the animal sacrifices? Are you keeping them all?

Jesus said the law and the prophets would not pass away. The prophets represent the ceremonial aspects of the Law.

So whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; for this is the law and the prophets. (My 7:12)
On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets (Mt 22:40)

 

[Raeneske]

But you can dismiss the clear scriptural evidence that the Law of God and the law of Moses are separate?

Amen, proved my point. I cannot tell Mungo why that one case I have seen has defraud not in it, yet he can clearly ignore tons of scriptural evidence that separates the two of them.

Oh, and Mungo, it says "Moses said" not Moses Law. So, if I speak to you, keep the Sabbath, i'm not giving you the Law of Raeneske. I'm goving you the Law of God.

The "Law of Moses" as it is called, is completely seperate from the 10 Commandments. All 10 Commandments were in the world from Adam to Moses. How else could they be sinners? The wages of sin is death (Rom 9:23). Seriously, Romans 4:15 tells you if there is no law, there is no sin. So there clearly was a law, seeing as how they died, and they all have fallen short. Can't fall short without a measuring stick. Even the Bible proves that. You have to see Mungo, that the Bible clearly makes a distinction between the immutable Law of God and the Old Covenant. Not to mention that all 10 Commandments are restated in the NT. Hebrews 4:48,9 show the Sabbath still REMAINS (meaning still there).

The Sabbath is not shrouded in darkness, as the Prince of Darkness tries to put it in. It's there, it's blunt.

 

[John_8:32]

Mt 5:17-18)
Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.

I think you are basing this on the assumption the Law of God and the law of Moses are one in the same. They are not, Christ spoke the Ten Commandments and wrote them with His own finger. They are timeless.

Jesus is saying that the Law will never pass away until it is fulfilled. But he fulfilled it and so it has passed away.

No, Jesus is saying that until ALL is fulfilled. That creates an interesting scenario, either this has come to pass...

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

and this...

Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

and this...

Eze 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
Eze 37:17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
Eze 37:18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
Eze 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

Eze 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
Eze 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
Eze 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
Eze 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Eze 37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

Or the law is still ineffect.

If you think it has not passed away, not one jot or tittle then where are ceremonial laws? Where are the animal sacrifices? Are you keeping them all?

Again, the law of sacrifices was a schoolmaster.

Jesus said the law and the prophets would not pass away. The prophets represent the ceremonial aspects of the Law.

How ceremonial does this sound?

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

or this...

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

or this?

Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
Zec 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
Zec 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
Zec 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

So whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; for this is the law and the prophets. (My 7:12)
On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets (Mt 22:40)

The two Great Commandments are of the Great Commandment. The Law of Love, love toward God (the first four Commandments) and love toward our neighbor (the last six).

 

[Mungo]

Are you sure you are under the New Covenant?

Yes.

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord,

Now this was written twenty some years after the crucifixion and Paul is still speaking of it in future terms...

"The days come'

when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Paul is quoting from Jeremiah. It was in the future for Jeremiah

Notice to whom the Covenant is made with? Which tribe are you from?

The Church is the new Israel

Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

And here we go again, the Covenant is the writing of the Law of God in our hearts and minds.

The laws are written on our hearts. The new covenant is more than that.

So instead of answering each one of your points, let me ask you a question...

Hmmm! Because you can’t?

If the law is done away, why do I need a Savior? If there is no law, there is no sin...

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

If there is no sin, there is no penalty for sin...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

And since there is no law, I have no sin for sin is...

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

So I don't need a Savior because without law there is no sin.

That is a complete afront to the very God who made me. He willingly took my death penalty so that I may live, and I owe Him everything for His loving sacrifice for me. In fact, I love Him so much that I will obey Him to my very best abilities. And because He loves me so much, when I do falter and fail, He lovingly applies His sacrifice in my stead.

The Old Law is done away with but that does not mean there is no law.

When there is a change of priesthood, there is necessarily a change of law as well. (Heb 7:12)

So what is this New Law? It is the Commandments of Jesus:
If you love me, you will keep my commandments. (Jn 14:15)
If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and remain in his love. (Jn 15:10)

Jesus doesn't command sabbath keeping


You will find Jesus commandments all through the NT
But what comes out of a person, that is what defiles. From within people, from their hearts, come evil thoughts, unchastity, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, licentiousness, envy, blasphemy, arrogance, folly. All these evils come from within and they defile. (Mk 7:20-23)

Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, occasions of envy, drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Gal 5:19-21)

Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor practicing homosexuals nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Cor 6:9-10)

But you will not find any commmand for Sabbath keeping.

 

[Raeneske]

Yes.



Paul is quoting from Jeremiah. It was in the future for Jeremiah



The Church is the new Israel



The laws are written on our hearts. The new covenant is more than that.




Hmmm! Because you can’t?



The Old Law is done away with but that does not mean there is no law.

When there is a change of priesthood, there is necessarily a change of law as well. (Heb 7:12)

So what is this New Law? It is the Commandments of Jesus:
If you love me, you will keep my commandments. (Jn 14:15)
If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and remain in his love. (Jn 15:10)

Jesus doesn't command sabbath keeping


You will find Jesus commandments all through the NT
But what comes out of a person, that is what defiles. From within people, from their hearts, come evil thoughts, unchastity, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, licentiousness, envy, blasphemy, arrogance, folly. All these evils come from within and they defile. (Mk 7:20-23)

Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, occasions of envy, drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Gal 5:19-21)

Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor practicing homosexuals nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Cor 6:9-10)

But you will not find any commmand for Sabbath keeping.

No commandment for Sabbath keeping? We have continually shown you the Sabbath Commandment is still in effect.

Hebrews 4:4,8 and 9.

God spake according to the 7th Day. If Jesus has given Christians rest, wouldn't he also have spoken of another day? Did Jesus give us rest, yes or no? Did Jesus ever contend with the Pharisees of another day besides the Seventh Day? No. So, what does Hebrews 4:9 declare. There REMAINS (which means it's still there, it denotes that it existed in the past, and there still is) a rest to the people of God. And to double check, check the Strong's Concordance for the Word "rest" in 4:9. It means Sabbatismos, a keeping Sabbath. You are repeatedly being told this, in so many posts, and yet you're ignoring it, just like you're ignoring the differences the Bible establishes between the 10 Commandments and the "Law of Moses". It is there for you to see. It is open for you to see, and laid out as best as I possibly can lay it out for you. If all this means nothing to you, please tell me..

Also, you were told in Romans 13:8-10 tells you that the two laws which you mentioned, are summaries. It is "briefly comprehended" as love your neighbor as yourself. It is a SUMMARY. The summary points BACK to the 10 Commandments, as Paul demonstrated.

Matthew 24:20 shows you Jesus talking to his CHRISTIANS to pray that they won't have to take flight on the Sabbath Day. Jesus also showed the Pharisees how to keep the Sabbath Day. None of Christ's teachings EVER demolished The Sabbath. Jesus put everything back into perspective.

 

[marksman]

Paul did expect them to keep it, He said not to let anyone judge you for KEEPING it. This was written 20 some years after the death, burial and crucifixion of Christ and Paul plainly says it is a shadow of something YET (that means future) to come.

John 8:32, thank you for your contributions to this topic. I will add them to my study of it as you point out things that are very relevant. A classic example of the misinterpretation of scripture by abolitionists is your quote above. I cannot remember the times I have been told that this passage says you don't have to keep the Sabbath.

It seems to me to be a case of finding and interpreting scripture to fit my theology rather than making my theology line up with scripture.

We should not be surprised as I have studied various denominations statement of faith and dialogued with leaders in the denominations and in every case it has been made clear that the scripture which they say is their guide for faith and practice, is only relevant if it lines up with their denominational dictates.

You obviously have put a lot of time and effort into all this for which I thank you.

Just one aside. When I attended Bible College, our senior lecturer was a converted Jew and widely read in the UK. He was quite clear that the 10 commandments were a separate entity to the law of Moses and should be treated differently. I think that this evident by the fact that the 10 Commandments form the basis for most law in civilised countries. Moses law has very little relevance today.

 

[Trekson]

John, Your words: "Let's use your example, you do agree that thinking lustful thoughts about a woman you are not married to is adultery, don't you? Well then is the physical act of having sex with another woman other than your wife adultery?"

Of course.

Your words: "So thinking holy thoughts is keeping the Sabbath? All the while breaking the letter of the law is perfectly acceptable?"

There is no letter of the law to break.

Your words: "Try killing someone and telling the judge I was actually thinking very nice thoughts about that person and see how that works out for you. I think we both know that is foolish reasoning.

You may think you're mocking me but in reality you're only mocking God's word. As a law-keeper there is something Christ taught about that you might be unfamiliar with, it's called faith. We keep the sabbath by having faith in Christ's completed work. Or do you think as He is dying on the cross, the words, "It is finished", meant nothing? All you're doing is reducing what He did to the mere act of being a convenient scapegoat. I'll leave you with this verse. Gal. 5:4 (AMP) "If you seek to be justified and declared righteous and to be given a right standing with God through the Law, you are brought to nothing and so separated (severed) from Christ. You have fallen away from grace (from God’s gracious favor and unmerited blessing)."

Trying to keep a "lawful" sabbath will condemn you before God. How would your defense be any different than those of orthodox Judaism over the past two thousand years? It will be worse for you because you had access to the truth and chose to deny it. For those, Christ says in Matt. 7:21-23 - "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. [sup]22 [/sup]Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? [sup]23 [/sup]And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

For those who think Christ's work was insufficient for them will also find there is no grace left for them at all.

 

[Mungo]

No commandment for Sabbath keeping? We have continually shown you the Sabbath Commandment is still in effect.

Hebrews 4:4,8 and 9.

God spake according to the 7th Day. If Jesus has given Christians rest, wouldn't he also have spoken of another day? Did Jesus give us rest, yes or no? Did Jesus ever contend with the Pharisees of another day besides the Seventh Day? No. So, what does Hebrews 4:9 declare. There REMAINS (which means it's still there, it denotes that it existed in the past, and there still is) a rest to the people of God.

Already answered in –post #49

And to double check, check the Strong's Concordance for the Word "rest" in 4:9. It means Sabbatismos, a keeping Sabbath.

Already answered in post #21 & post #23

You are repeatedly being told this, in so many posts, and yet you're ignoring it, just like you're ignoring the differences the Bible establishes between the 10 Commandments and the "Law of Moses". It is there for you to see. It is open for you to see, and laid out as best as I possibly can lay it out for you. If all this means nothing to you, please tell me..

I have repeatedly shown that The Law of Moses and the Law of God is the same.

Also, you were told in Romans 13:8-10 tells you that the two laws which you mentioned, are summaries. It is "briefly comprehended" as love your neighbor as yourself. It is a SUMMARY. The summary points BACK to the 10 Commandments, as Paul demonstrated.

Note verse 9
The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
What other commandments are there? Answer - many. They are all through Exodus. Leviticus and Deuteronomy. Are you nullifying all the other commandments that God gave us?

Matthew 24:20 shows you Jesus talking to his CHRISTIANS to pray that they won't have to take flight on the Sabbath Day. Jesus also showed the Pharisees how to keep the Sabbath Day. None of Christ's teachings EVER demolished The Sabbath. Jesus put everything back into perspective.

Jesus and the Pharises kept the Sabbath day because they were Jews and live when the Old Covenant with the old laws were still operative.

Jesus prayed they would not have to flee ton the Sabbath day because the gates of Jerusalem were shut and Jews might kill anyone fleeing on the Sabbath day, therefore breaking the Sabbath from their perspective.. Is was nothing to do with Sabbath keeping.

That you are unable to come up with anything better than that shows that your arguments are bankrupt.


Have you anything new that I have not answered already?

Perhaps you could get round to answerring some of my points that you ignore.

 

[mjrhealth]

You live by the law you will be judged by the law. There is no payment but death. for that is what the wages of sin is. To live by the law is to trample the works of Jesus underfoot. He died for you ONCE and for all, if you are under grace than sin has no hold of you for the price was paid by Jesus. He was judged Guilty in your place and died in place of you. If you choose the law than you must die for you have not accepted the price Jesus paid and serve to do it yourself. Not withstanding that us gentiles came to Christ under grace, the law was given to the Israelites, the Jews, it was never ours. We are the sheep of the otherfold Peter was sent to teach us remeber the vision with the sheets. That where it changed for us.

In all His Love