Sabbath

[mjrhealth]

love it when people take things out of context and put words into peoples mouths to try prove a point. Yet if you walked in the spirit as you are supposed to, you would never even thought of doing so, would you???

Luk_7:35 But wisdom is justified of all her children.

In all His Love

 

[Raeneske]

See the law is not our focus when it is than we are not under grace, You can see those under the law for the way the so much stick up for it. We gentles are not Under the law, neither are they our focus, Jesus is Lord in Him alone is our salvation, strving to keep the law leads to fear, fear is not from God. So many Christians strive to perfect themselves through them and in doing so do away with grace. Its not about doing bad thins , we choose to do good because that is what love does, it has nothing to do with keeping teh law.

in all His Love

I admit, I was fearful at first. No, that's not a reason for someone not to emphasize the Law of God. See, I am a "very green" Christian, so it took me a while to understand some things and settle down. Took me some time to understand what "sin willfully" meant - Which means sinning, without repentance, deliberatly, and just flat out not caring about it.

Idk if I can agree with you. Jesus Christ is our focus, and that Law is a revelation of His perfect Character. So really, the Law is a huge part of our focus. But just because we're conscious of the Law, doesn't mean we don't know we're under grace. We know we're under grace. But, shall we sin, that grace may abound? God forbid! We shall not transgress God's Law freely, and continually so that we can have more grace. Striving to keep the Law does not lead to fear. A misunderstanding of God and His Holy Word leads to fear - I know personally, I can attest to that. No one is doing away with grace by examining themselves to see if they are in the faith. It is good for me to stop and go, "Have I sinned today..?" Pause think, and if anything comes up to my mind, repent, or ask God to show me where I am ignorant of His perfect will.

Yes, doing good because of love, because love is fulfilling the law. But it's still vitally important to realize what we may think is good, is not always good. God's Law says not to lie. As common and as widespread as that is that people do, Christians aren't supposed to do. However, the Law of God is inseperable from God and His throne. It must be exalted, in all the dark places. Men must see the perfect character of God, that they must compare themselves to.

 

[Trekson]

Why does this always become a discussion between keeping the law or not keeping the law. That's not the question. The correct question is how do we keep the law? The answer is by faith. We have the law written in our hearts and the Holy Spirit helps us to keep the sin laws and in that same way we "keep" the sabbath by resting by faith, in the Lord of the Sabbath. No, not in a "lawful" way for that is sin, but by resting via faith in the completion by Christ of what the sabbath law foreshadowed. A person keeps a "lawful" sabbath at their own peril.

 

[Raeneske]

Why does this always become a discussion between keeping the law or not keeping the law. That's not the question. The correct question is how do we keep the law? The answer is by faith. We have the law written in our hearts and the Holy Spirit helps us to keep the sin laws and in that same way we "keep" the sabbath by resting by faith, in the Lord of the Sabbath. No, not in a "lawful" way for that is sin, but by resting via faith in the completion by Christ of what the sabbath law foreshadowed. A person keeps a "lawful" sabbath at their own peril.

It is not sin to obey the law. Do you lawfully, obey your parents? Do you lawfully, refuse to to murder someone?

Resting "in faith" is not Sabbath Keeping. That's having faith that Jesus completly fulfilled all the Old Testaments prophecies, and that he will give you rest. Him giving you rest, never abolished the Sabbath.

When Christ comes into you, to fulfil the law, how can you sin? You wouldn't break the Sabbath, if you had a full understanding of it. While Christ is in you fulfilling the law, you will not sin. His strength gives you the ability to keep the 10 Commandments.

The Sabbath was never a shadow. The Sabbath never ended at the cross. The fact that many people claim that Jesus gives them rest, proves that fact rather bluntly. What I mean is, if it ended at the cross, then why would Jesus have to "give us rest" in the way people claim He does? After all, if they say it ended, should it not have?

Show me by your faith how you keep the law. And i'll show you by my works how I keep the law. Am I saying my works are justifying me? No, so please don't take me out of context. Show your faith without works, and i'll show you my faith, with my works. And if you're curious, read James Chapter 2. I basically just reitterated what it says

 

[robaston]

wise just to have i day off in 7

 

[mjrhealth]

You are either under grace or under the law. So many Christians trying to be saved by grace while trying to keep the law, It cant be done. if you are under the law than there is no grace. You cannot keep the law it is impossible for man. The payment for breaking the law is blood, that is why Jesus bled on the cross,

Mat_26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

You see you cant just keep one law as so many try to do, you have to keep them all, and if you break just one, than blood must be sacrificed, and if you are under the law as you choose to do, than it is your blood, for to you Christ died in vain.

Does this give one an excuse to sin? no but it takes away the Guilt which the enemy uses to keep you from Christ.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

In All His Love.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Raeneske, Your understanding of James 2 is way different than mine. The first thing you have to realize is that lawkeepingis NOT "works".

In verse 21, what was Abraham's "works"? Was it the willingness to sacrifice Isaac? No!, It was the FAITH that God would provide a substitute. His "works" was that he believed God, vs. 23. Now as mjrhealth pointed out, it is impossible to live a sinless life but we have faith in Christ, that His substitution as the perfect Lamb was sufficient for us to receive forgiveness for all our transgressions, past, present and future. No, that doesn't mean we are free to sin as much as we want. It just means we have faith in God's word in 1 John 1:9.

A christians "works" is to obey the two commandments found in Matt. 22:37-40 focusing on the aspect of love. Now, can I love God and not keep His "lawful" sabbath? Of course, trusting and having faith in His completed work instead of the Lawful sabbath is how we show Him we love Him. If we try to keep the lawful sabbath than we are not showing love to God because we are saying, in effect, that what He did on the cross was NOT sufficient.

You can trust in your works if you want to but I'll trust in Christ's works and by doing so I will reflect as much of Christ's character as I can towards my fellow man and in that way any works I do will be because of Him and not my misguided faith min anything outside of Him.

BTW, if you try and keep the lawful sabbath you must also keep not just the ten commandments but all the 613 other laws as well. Either He fulfilled the whole law or He fulfilled none of it. One can't pick and choose which laws are ok. It's the law way or Christ's way, there is no middle ground.

 

[Raeneske]

Hi Raeneske, Your understanding of James 2 is way different than mine. The first thing you have to realize is that lawkeepingis NOT "works".

In verse 21, what was Abraham's "works"? Was it the willingness to sacrifice Isaac? No!, It was the FAITH that God would provide a substitute. His "works" was that he believed God, vs. 23. Now as mjrhealth pointed out, it is impossible to live a sinless life but we have faith in Christ, that His substitution as the perfect Lamb was sufficient for us to receive forgiveness for all our transgressions, past, present and future. No, that doesn't mean we are free to sin as much as we want. It just means we have faith in God's word in 1 John 1:9.

A christians "works" is to obey the two commandments found in Matt. 22:37-40 focusing on the aspect of love. Now, can I love God and not keep His "lawful" sabbath? Of course, trusting and having faith in His completed work instead of the Lawful sabbath is how we show Him we love Him. If we try to keep the lawful sabbath than we are not showing love to God because we are saying, in effect, that what He did on the cross was NOT sufficient.

You can trust in your works if you want to but I'll trust in Christ's works and by doing so I will reflect as much of Christ's character as I can towards my fellow man and in that way any works I do will be because of Him and not my misguided faith min anything outside of Him.

BTW, if you try and keep the lawful sabbath you must also keep not just the ten commandments but all the 613 other laws as well. Either He fulfilled the whole law or He fulfilled none of it. One can't pick and choose which laws are ok. It's the law way or Christ's way, there is no middle ground.

You're going to have to use your own reasoning here.

If I try to keep commandment number 4, then I have to keep everything. Has obediance to the Law of God, shown that we actually don't trust God? That's not only erroneous, but downright confusing. I don't trust you, so let me keep your law...? Doesn't Jesus say if ye love me, keep my commandments, John 14:15?

Trek, if you try to keep commandment #6, then don't you have to keep everything? You see how that works? If you try to keep "thou shalt not kill" lawfully, you have to keep everything else. Lawfully meaning, not only will you spiritually keep it, by refusing to hate people, but you'll keep it to the letter lawfully as well, by not literally killing someone.

Now you could say, "I'm not trying to not kill anyone, i'm just trying to love them.". Yeah but, you're still doing it. Whether you're trying to directly, or indirectly, it matters not. You're still obeying the law, and there's no way around it.

You just turned faith into works, by your definition. I'm not sure if you meant to do that, so i'm going to hold off a little bit.

I would look at Romans 13:8-10 regarding the two great commandments. Paul says that "Love thy neighbour as thyself" is a summary of the commandments. A summary meaning, it points back to the commandments. It's like an acronym. You use one to remember the answer. To love your neighbour as yourself, you'll look at commandments 5-10, and you won't break them. Look at the 10 commandments. If you love anyone, will you break them? Can you love your neighbour and murder him at the same time ... No. Can you love God, and bend a knee to idols all the time ... No. So, why is it, 9 commandments, we can go through, and you'll say you won't do them if you love God or your neighbour, but #4 you can break. Doesn't Revelation 22:14 say you're blessed if you keep the Commandments.

Strange, once again I am told I cannot pick and choose, but while I say keep all 10, others say nope, only keep 9/10. I don't think i'm the one being selective.

So, when I obey all 10, i'm being selective, and i'm in trouble for it. But, when you keep 9, and forget one, you aren't being selective. When you keep any of the other 9, you don't have to keep any other of the laws. But if you just so happen to keep #4, then you have to keep all the other laws. Again... I'm sure i'm not the one being selective here.

It's impossible to reflect Christ if you're not keeping the 10 Commandments. Legitimate impossibility. Go ahead. Try to reflect Jesus while you worship other gods, worship idols, take his name in vain, disrespect your parents, kill people, covet your neighbors things, steal things, lie, and commit adultery. Can you reflect Jesus while you do all that?

 

[marksman]

It's impossible to reflect Christ if you're not keeping the 10 Commandments. Legitimate impossibility. Go ahead. Try to reflect Jesus while you worship other gods, worship idols, take his name in vain, disrespect your parents, kill people, covet your neighbors things, steal things, lie, and commit adultery. Can you reflect Jesus while you do all that?

Now that is a question we all need to answer.

 

[John_8:32]

wise just to have i day off in 7

All well and good if there is no God. The problem with your statement is that we do not get to choose, neither do we have the power to declare time holy, that is God's prerogative...

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

God blessed THE seventh day, the indicates it is a partivular day. He also blessed the seventh day and set it apart for holy use. Only God chooses how to worship Him, our choice is not how, but whether we will do it according to how He tells us to...

Deu 12:30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
Deu 12:31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.
Deu 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Raeneske, The confusion lies in still believing there are ten commandments. They are gone and we are left with two. Your words: "Doesn't Jesus say if ye love me, keep my commandments, John 14:15?"

Yes, He does but His commandments are separate from God's commandments. They are not the ten commandments.
John 15:10 - "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love."

Here is a summary of Christ's commandments:

John 13:34 - "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another."
John 15:12 - "This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you."
Matt. 22:37-40 - "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

Love is the fulfillment of the law.

Your words:"Now you could say, "I'm not trying to not kill anyone, i'm just trying to love them.". Yeah but, you're still doing it. Whether you're trying to directly, or indirectly, it matters not. You're still obeying the law, and there's no way around it."

The command is to love, there is no trying, we just do it. Now are we always successful? No! Are there times we fail to show love to others or to reflect Christ in a positive way? Of course, and as stated previously, then we go to 1 John 1:9. We don't have to worry about whether we keep # 1, #3, or #6. We just simply love God and each other. By doing just that we fulfill everything the sabbath law and all the other laws intended.

Yes, it's really that simple.

 

[John_8:32]

Hi Raeneske, The confusion lies in still believing there are ten commandments. They are gone and we are left with two. Your words: "Doesn't Jesus say if ye love me, keep my commandments, John 14:15?"

Yes, He does but His commandments are separate from God's commandments. They are not the ten commandments.
John 15:10 - "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love."

Here is a summary of Christ's commandments:

John 13:34 - "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another."
John 15:12 - "This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you."
Matt. 22:37-40 - "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

Love is the fulfillment of the law.

Your words:"Now you could say, "I'm not trying to not kill anyone, i'm just trying to love them.". Yeah but, you're still doing it. Whether you're trying to directly, or indirectly, it matters not. You're still obeying the law, and there's no way around it."

The command is to love, there is no trying, we just do it. Now are we always successful? No! Are there times we fail to show love to others or to reflect Christ in a positive way? Of course, and as stated previously, then we go to 1 John 1:9. We don't have to worry about whether we keep # 1, #3, or #6. We just simply love God and each other. By doing just that we fulfill everything the sabbath law and all the other laws intended.

Yes, it's really that simple.

Who was it that spoke those Ten Commandments at Mt. Sinai?

Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

No one has EVER seen the Father or heard His voice.

Remember the end of John 5:37...

Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Who was it then that appeared to Moses?

Exo 33:18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
Exo 33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Exo 33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
Exo 33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
Exo 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

Exo 3:13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Who was the I AM?

Joh 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

Notice that "he" is in italics, means it was not in the orginal manuscripts.

But just in case this is not convincing enough...

1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

So I guess you believe Christ made a colossol mistake on MT. Sinai, when He later said...

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

And then what Comandments do you suppose He was talking about here...

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Why, it might have been the very ones He kept on earth...

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John thought so...

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

 

[Trekson]

John, Bringing up the fact that Christ lived, died and taught the law is just reliving history. He had to live by the law to fulfill the law, so we won't have to be burdened by it. Your 1 John 5:2 ref. is not speaking of the ten but the two of Matt. 22. If you want to understand how to live apart from the law than only Paul's writings can show you that. One can't correctly learn our relationship to the law from the OT or the gospels as the new covenant hadn't arrived yet. Christ's death changed everything and He "willed" to us the promise of grace apart from the law! While Christ was the testator, it was Paul who became the executor of the message of the new covenant.

We know that Christ was and is the word, however, the "backside" of the "voice" had to be God the Father. It is possible that Christ was Melchisedek and may have been one of the "men" who spoke with Abraham. His face has been seen, therefore they can't be the same. Giving an obscure passage like John 5:37 doesn't negate the words of Christ in 15:10 as He is only referencing those He is talking to, not all men at all times. Knowing who is speaking what to whom is Bible 101.

I'll repeat, if you want to understand the believer's position regarding the law, the gospels won't do that for you. You have to go to Paul's writings to get that understanding.

 

[John_8:32]

John, Bringing up the fact that Christ lived, died and taught the law is just reliving history. He had to live by the law to fulfill the law, so we won't have to be burdened by it. Your 1 John 5:2 ref. is not speaking of the ten but the two of Matt. 22. If you want to understand how to live apart from the law than only Paul's writings can show you that. One can't correctly learn our relationship to the law from the OT or the gospels as the new covenant hadn't arrived yet. Christ's death changed everything and He "willed" to us the promise of grace apart from the law! While Christ was the testator, it was Paul who became the executor of the message of the new covenant.

We know that Christ was and is the word, however, the "backside" of the "voice" had to be God the Father.

Why must it be the Father? Because that is the only scenario that allows your thinking that Christ did away with the harsh old Commands of the Father and started something new. Problem is Christ plainly says that...

Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

So help me out here, was Christ lying or just mistaken?

It is possible that Christ was Melchisedek and may have been one of the "men" who spoke with Abraham. His face has been seen, therefore they can't be the same. Giving an obscure passage like John 5:37 doesn't negate the words of Christ in 15:10 as He is only referencing those He is talking to, not all men at all times. Knowing who is speaking what to whom is Bible 101.

Yep and although the scriputre is quite plain about it, you seem unable to accept it...

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

It wasn't the Father, it was Christ. But if indeed it had been the Father, what did Christ come to do?

Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Joh 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Joh 8:18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
Joh 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
Joh 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Joh 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Joh 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Now remember, Jesus Christ said...

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

and...

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Which ones? Again...

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The Ten Commandments.

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Joh 16:25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

Seems from what we read Jesus' ministry was all about the Father. So whether these laws are Christ's or the Father's, we still have the Commandments.

I'll repeat, if you want to understand the believer's position regarding the law, the gospels won't do that for you. You have to go to Paul's writings to get that understanding.

I find this statement absolutely amazing. You are telling me that my Lord, Master and Saviour is not who I should listen to, believe or obey? You have got to be kidding me. That is, to put it bluntly, male bovine fecal matter.

 

[Raeneske]

Hi Raeneske, The confusion lies in still believing there are ten commandments. They are gone and we are left with two. Your words: "Doesn't Jesus say if ye love me, keep my commandments, John 14:15?"

Yes, He does but His commandments are separate from God's commandments. They are not the ten commandments.
John 15:10 - "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love."

Here is a summary of Christ's commandments:

John 13:34 - "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another."
John 15:12 - "This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you."
Matt. 22:37-40 - "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

Love is the fulfillment of the law.

Your words:"Now you could say, "I'm not trying to not kill anyone, i'm just trying to love them.". Yeah but, you're still doing it. Whether you're trying to directly, or indirectly, it matters not. You're still obeying the law, and there's no way around it."

The command is to love, there is no trying, we just do it. Now are we always successful? No! Are there times we fail to show love to others or to reflect Christ in a positive way? Of course, and as stated previously, then we go to 1 John 1:9. We don't have to worry about whether we keep # 1, #3, or #6. We just simply love God and each other. By doing just that we fulfill everything the sabbath law and all the other laws intended.

Yes, it's really that simple.

Trekson, the two commandments are explained in Romans 13:8-10 by Paul.

Romans 13:8-10 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Paul specifically said himself, that the commands are briefly comprehended as "love thy neighbour as thyself". Paul showed, that Jesus was referring to the 10 Commandments.

The Law of God is eternal, and Jesus did not come to destroy it, or that it is "gone" as you state. Jesus himself proved that He did not come to destroy the law. He then says if you shall break the commandments, He will call you least in the kingdom of heaven, but those that teach the commandments are called great in Heaven. Jesus then goes on to talk about commandment #6, so you can make no mistake in his speech.

Matthew 5:17-22: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

So, Jesus himself stated the two great commadments, and Paul explained what Jesus meant. Paul made a reference to 5 of the Commandments of God, to show that Jesus meant the 10 Commandments. Jesus also says that the great ones in heaven, are those that teach the commadments, and to make no mistake of His speech, he then talks about commandment #6, and gives a broader, deeper, more spiritual nature to the Law of God.

There is a difference between failing to keep the Law of God, and blatantly ignoring it's precepts. You cannot claim love, yet blatantly ignore commandment #5, and dishonour and disrespect your parents. You cannot claim love and blatantly, ignore commandment #2, and worship idols all the time, but claim to have God in your heart. Such tactics will not work with God. That's worshipping God with your lips, but having your heart far from Him.

James 2:10-12: For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Often this is taken to mean, all of the ordinances that were nailed to the cross. But this is not what James was saying. To clarify his speech, James then refers to 2 of the 10 Commadments. He refers to commandments #'s 6 and 7. He is speaking of the 10 Commandments. To keep 9/10, makes you a guilty man, because you have continually, and purposely transgressed Commandment #4. If you failed to keep it on accident, that's one thing. You then must repent. But, to choose to willfully desecrate the Sabbath, to profane #4, to willfully turn your back on one point of the 10 Commandment law, is to be guilty of breaking them all.

 

[Trekson]

John and Raeneske, Well, there's nothing more to say, you've heard it all. If you can't comprehend the difference between the old and new covenant, then I wish you luck, you'll need it.

John, One more thing, Your words: "John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

So help me out here, was Christ lying or just mistaken?"

The "ye" are the Jews He is speaking to in vs. 18. It doesn't imply anything more.

 

[John_8:32]

John and Raeneske, Well, there's nothing more to say, you've heard it all. If you can't comprehend the difference between the old and new covenant, then I wish you luck, you'll need it.

John, One more thing, Your words: "John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

So help me out here, was Christ lying or just mistaken?"

The "ye" are the Jews He is speaking to in vs. 18. It doesn't imply anything more.

So to fit YOUR theology, we must now discount the Gospels because they were only for the Jews? Yep, I think we are done.

 

[Rex]

John 1:18
Who is at the Fathers side, he has made him known.

 

[Trekson]

Nope, just the parts about the law. They were for the Jews.

 

[Raeneske]

Nope, just the parts about the law. They were for the Jews.

The Sabbath was made for man, not just for The Jew.