Sabbath

[John_8:32]

John, Your words: "Let's use your example, you do agree that thinking lustful thoughts about a woman you are not married to is adultery, don't you? Well then is the physical act of having sex with another woman other than your wife adultery?"

Of course.

Your words: "So thinking holy thoughts is keeping the Sabbath? All the while breaking the letter of the law is perfectly acceptable?"

There is no letter of the law to break.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Exo 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.

And six verses prior to this we read...

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Your words: "Try killing someone and telling the judge I was actually thinking very nice thoughts about that person and see how that works out for you. I think we both know that is foolish reasoning.

You may think you're mocking me but in reality you're only mocking God's word.

Actually, I meant no mocking toward you or anyone. It was used to illustrate the fact that the intent and heart must be coupled with action. That is the meaning of writing the law on our hearts, that as we carry out the letter of the law (not killing someone) we are not breaking the spirit of the law (not being angry with our brother).

As a law-keeper there is something Christ taught about that you might be unfamiliar with, it's called faith. We keep the sabbath by having faith in Christ's completed work. Or do you think as He is dying on the cross, the words, "It is finished", meant nothing? All you're doing is reducing what He did to the mere act of being a convenient scapegoat. I'll leave you with this verse. Gal. 5:4 (AMP) "If you seek to be justified and declared righteous and to be given a right standing with God through the Law, you are brought to nothing and so separated (severed) from Christ. You have fallen away from grace (from God’s gracious favor and unmerited blessing)."

Trying to keep a "lawful" sabbath will condemn you before God. How would your defense be any different than those of orthodox Judaism over the past two thousand years? It will be worse for you because you had access to the truth and chose to deny it. For those, Christ says in Matt. 7:21-23 - "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. [sup]22 [/sup]Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? [sup]23 [/sup]And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

I assume that one day I will have to stand before Christ and simply say, "I am sorry that I tried to obey you to the best of my ability.

For those who think Christ's work was insufficient for them will also find there is no grace left for them at all.

I find it interesting that you quoted Mat 7:21-23, here it is in the NKJV...

Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Mat 7:22 "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
Mat 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

You live by the law you will be judged by the law. There is no payment but death. for that is what the wages of sin is. To live by the law is to trample the works of Jesus underfoot. He died for you ONCE and for all, if you are under grace than sin has no hold of you for the price was paid by Jesus. He was judged Guilty in your place and died in place of you. If you choose the law than you must die for you have not accepted the price Jesus paid and serve to do it yourself. Not withstanding that us gentiles came to Christ under grace, the law was given to the Israelites, the Jews, it was never ours. We are the sheep of the otherfold Peter was sent to teach us remeber the vision with the sheets. That where it changed for us.

In all His Love

So, since one is under grace we can live as we please? He can do the works of his father?

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

You do not believe that for one minute and neither does anyone else.



On a procedural note, can someone help me? When I reply to different quotes, it seems to get lumped together in one reply as above. I replied to Trekson and the replied to mjrhealth and the board combined it into one reply. I apparently don't have something set correctly and am not savvy enough to figure it out. This was supposed to be in a separate post and it is tacked on the end. Thanks in advance.

 

[Mungo]

Tacking on the end is the way the board works if no-one else has posted inbetween your posts.

 

[John_8:32]

Mt 5:17-18)
Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.

Jesus is saying that the Law will never pass away until it is fulfilled. But he fulfilled it and so it has passed away.

If you think it has not passed away, not one jot or tittle then where are ceremonial laws? Where are the animal sacrifices? Are you keeping them all?

I am not dodging this question, I skipped it in a previous post because of the problem I am having with all my posts being combined. Makes one post too long for anyone to read, including myself. Anyhoo...

Now Christ, Himself says that He changes not (Mal 3:6 and Heb 13:8). This is why His Law (the Ten Commandments) is inviolate but let's look at a change that was made...

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Ahhh, let's jump on this and assume it means the entirety of law! No, better yet, let's read the context and see what really was changed. First of all, there has always been a Priesthood and High Priest. Always!

Gen 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.

At the time of Abraham there was a High Priest, Melchizedek, and this was Jesus Christ.

Now, back to the verses previous to Heb 7:12...

Heb 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
Heb 7:10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

So before Levi was a twinkle in Abrahams eye, Melchisedec was the Priest of the Most High God. Now we know that everything about the Tabernacle (and later the Temple) was a type of what is in Heaven...

Heb 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

So back to Heb 7:12, there was a change in the law. What change in what law?

Heb 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

Who could and who could not be a Priest in the Tabernacle?

Exo 30:30 And thou shalt anoint Aaron and his sons, and consecrate them, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office.

The Priesthood was a genetic thing. The only men who could be Priests had to be of Aaron's lineage and Aaron was a Levite not a Jew.

Exo 4:14 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Moses, and he said, Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well. And also, behold, he cometh forth to meet thee: and when he seeth thee, he will be glad in his heart.

So, only Levites and then they must be sons of Aaron, could be in the Priesthood. So Christ being the High Priest of our faith was technically disqualified from being a Priest because He was a Jew.

Heb 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Heb 7:20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
Heb 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
Heb 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
Heb 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
Heb 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

God is so particular about even the law of Moses (this is certainly not one of the Ten Commandments) that He cahnged the law concerning who could or could not be Priest by birth such that He did not violate any part of the Law. Interesting, if the Law, including the law of Moses, is done away, why did Christ change this law? Why did He not just ignore it? Because HE WILL NOT VIOLATE ANY PART OF HIS HOLY LAW!

So, what about animal sacrifices?

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Paul shows us in Galatians that animal sacrifices were the type, the pictograph, the instructor, the schoolmaster to show what was to come, the ultimate fulfillment of animal sacrifices...

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

The actual sacrifice has ALWAYS been a lamb...

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Animal sacrifices were a bloody shadow of the true Lamb slain and as good as done from before the creation of the earth.

Jesus said the law and the prophets would not pass away. The prophets represent the ceremonial aspects of the Law.

So did the law pass away? NO! It was FULFILLED in the Lamb of God being slain for our sins. The law was not done away, Christ went through with it and fulfilled it by becoming the perfect sacrifice which needed to be done only once for all. The law is still in effect, everytime you or I sin, that sacrifice is there, done and available to pay for our sin. There is only one time when that cannot be applied, willfully breaking God's law without remorse or repentance...

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

And again, what is sin?

1 John 3:4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. - NASB

Tacking on the end is the way the board works if no-one else has posted inbetween your posts.

Thank you. I hope everyone here does not confuse spirited discussion (that each of us is passionate about) with personal attacks. In my posts I never intend that and if anyone is ever offended, my sincerest apologies.

 

[Mungo]

I am not dodging this question, I skipped it in a previous post because of the problem I am having with all my posts being combined. Makes one post too long for anyone to read, including myself. Anyhoo...

Now Christ, Himself says that He changes not (Mal 3:6 and Heb 13:8). This is why His Law (the Ten Commandments) is inviolate but let's look at a change that was made...

God’s law is a lot more than the Ten Commandments as I have already shown. All the OT Laws came from God, not just the Ten Commandments.

Christ does not change. His moral laws do not change. But the implementation of those laws change with the various covenants. Nine of the Ten Commandments were an implementation of those moral laws for the Jews, one was not a moral law (Sabbath keeping).

We have anew covenant with new laws, the vast majority of them are the same or similar because they are based on God’s moral laws.

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Ahhh, let's jump on this and assume it means the entirety of law! No, better yet, let's read the context and see what really was changed. First of all, there has always been a Priesthood and High Priest. Always!

Gen 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.

At the time of Abraham there was a High Priest, Melchizedek, and this was Jesus Christ.

He isn’t called a High Priest but a priest.

Can you prove he was Jesus Christ? He pre-figured Jesus Christ but that does not make him Jesus Christ. Read Heb 7:3 – Melchisadek is described as “resembling the Son of God”

Originally all first born sons were priests and kings. The Jews have a tradition that Melchisadek was actually Shem (first born of Noah and hence a priest). Do the maths – it works out.

God changed his plans when there revolt and only the Levites came to Moses’ aid (Ex 32:26) and so the tribe of Levi became priests (Ex 32:29) instead of the first born sons.

Now, back to the verses previous to Heb 7:12...

Heb 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
Heb 7:10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

So before Levi was a twinkle in Abrahams eye, Melchisedec was the Priest of the Most High God. Now we know that everything about the Tabernacle (and later the Temple) was a type of what is in Heaven...

Heb 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

So back to Heb 7:12, there was a change in the law. What change in what law?

Heb 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

Who could and who could not be a Priest in the Tabernacle?

Exo 30:30 And thou shalt anoint Aaron and his sons, and consecrate them, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office.

The Priesthood was a genetic thing. The only men who could be Priests had to be of Aaron's lineage and Aaron was a Levite not a Jew.

WHAT! Of course Levites were Jews. They were one of the twelve tribes.

Exo 4:14 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Moses, and he said, Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well. And also, behold, he cometh forth to meet thee: and when he seeth thee, he will be glad in his heart.

So, only Levites and then they must be sons of Aaron, could be in the Priesthood. So Christ being the High Priest of our faith was technically disqualified from being a Priest because He was a Jew.

Heb 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Heb 7:20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
Heb 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
Heb 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
Heb 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
Heb 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

God is so particular about even the law of Moses (this is certainly not one of the Ten Commandments) that He cahnged the law concerning who could or could not be Priest by birth such that He did not violate any part of the Law. Interesting, if the Law, including the law of Moses, is done away, why did Christ change this law? Why did He not just ignore it? Because HE WILL NOT VIOLATE ANY PART OF HIS HOLY LAW!

God changed the law in Exodus to make the Levites priests.

But Jesus was not a Levite.

That is why Jesus is described as a priest of the order of Melchisadek. It is a different order of priests to that of the Levites. It was the order that existed before the rebellion in Ex 32.

And Jesus was the firstborn son of the Father so he was entitled to be a priest of that order.

So there WAS a change in the priesthood as scripture says

So, what about animal sacrifices?

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Paul shows us in Galatians that animal sacrifices were the type, the pictograph, the instructor, the schoolmaster to show what was to come, the ultimate fulfillment of animal sacrifices...

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

The actual sacrifice has ALWAYS been a lamb...

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Animal sacrifices were a bloody shadow of the true Lamb slain and as good as done from before the creation of the earth.

Make up your mind

Was the law on animal sacrifices abolished.
You seem to be claiming none of the Law was abolished

So did the law pass away? NO! It was FULFILLED in the Lamb of God being slain for our sins. The law was not done away, Christ went through with it and fulfilled it by becoming the perfect sacrifice which needed to be done only once for all. The law is still in effect, everytime you or I sin, that sacrifice is there, done and available to pay for our sin. There is only one time when that cannot be applied, willfully breaking God's law without remorse or repentance...

EXACTLY the law was fulfilled. We are no longer bound by it. The Old Covenant is finished.

Paul has another angle on this:

Are you unaware, brothers (for I am speaking to people who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over one as long as one lives? Thus a married woman is bound by law to her living husband; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law in respect to her husband. Consequently, while her husband is alive she will be called an adulteress if she consorts with another man. But if her husband dies she is free from that law, and she is not an adulteress if she consorts with another man.
In the same way, my brothers, you also were put to death to the law through the body of Christ, so that you might belong to another, to the one who was raised from the dead in order that we might bear fruit for God. For when we were in the flesh, our sinful passions, awakened by the law, worked in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are released from the law, dead to what held us captive, so that we may serve in the newness of the spirit and not under the obsolete letter. (Rom 7:1-6)
We are put to death to the Law
We are released from the Law

Note particularly that this is particularly relevant because God considered himself “married” to Israel. When Jesus died the Covenant ended and Jesus was free to take a new bride – the Church.

John, you and Raeneske seem to be going over the same points that I have dealt with at least once already.

Unless you have anything new I'm leaving this. I'm too busy to keep going over the same arguments repeatedly and (seemingly anyway) to have them ignored.

Mungo

 

[John_8:32]

God’s law is a lot more than the Ten Commandments as I have already shown. All the OT Laws came from God, not just the Ten Commandments.

Christ does not change. His moral laws do not change. But the implementation of those laws change with the various covenants. Nine of the Ten Commandments were an implementation of those moral laws for the Jews, one was not a moral law (Sabbath keeping).

The Word of god does not make this distinction. Where does the scripture say that the Fourth Commandment is separate from and not a part of the Ten Commandments?

We have anew covenant with new laws, the vast majority of them are the same or similar because they are based on God’s moral laws.

Of course, the New Covenant was made with the same Laws, they are now written on our hearts and not on stone tablets.

He isn’t called a High Priest but a priest.

Can you prove he was Jesus Christ? He pre-figured Jesus Christ but that does not make him Jesus Christ. Read Heb 7:3 – Melchisadek is described as “resembling the Son of God”

Originally all first born sons were priests and kings. The Jews have a tradition that Melchisadek was actually Shem (first born of Noah and hence a priest). Do the maths – it works out.

God changed his plans when there revolt and only the Levites came to Moses’ aid (Ex 32:26) and so the tribe of Levi became priests (Ex 32:29) instead of the first born sons.

I'll address this, but in a later post.

WHAT! Of course Levites were Jews. They were one of the twelve tribes.

When I was a lad, one of the scriptures that actually intrigued me into studying the Bible was this one...

2Ki 16:1 In the seventeenth year of Pekah the son of Remaliah Ahaz the son of Jotham king of Judah began to reign.
2Ki 16:2 Twenty years old was Ahaz when he began to reign, and reigned sixteen years in Jerusalem, and did not that which was right in the sight of the LORD his God, like David his father.
2Ki 16:3 But he walked in the way of the kings of Israel, yea, and made his son to pass through the fire, according to the abominations of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out from before the children of Israel.
2Ki 16:4 And he sacrificed and burnt incense in the high places, and on the hills, and under every green tree.
2Ki 16:5 Then Rezin king of Syria and Pekah son of Remaliah king of Israel came up to Jerusalem to war: and they besieged Ahaz, but could not overcome him.
2Ki 16:6 At that time Rezin king of Syria recovered Elath to Syria, and drave the Jews from Elath: and the Syrians came to Elath, and dwelt there unto this day.

The context here shows that Pekah, the king of Israel, is at war with Ahaz the king of Judah. This is the first place in the Bible the word Jew(s) is used and the context is that Israel is at war with the Jews. The word Jew is derived from Judah, one of twelve (actually thirteen) tribes. All Jews (sons of Judah) are Israelites, but not all Israelites are Jews. Modern day example is all Texans are Americans, but all Americans are not Texans. There are those from New York, California and forty-seven other states.

God changed the law in Exodus to make the Levites priests.

But Jesus was not a Levite.

That is why Jesus is described as a priest of the order of Melchisadek. It is a different order of priests to that of the Levites. It was the order that existed before the rebellion in Ex 32.

And Jesus was the firstborn son of the Father so he was entitled to be a priest of that order.

So there WAS a change in the priesthood as scripture says

Yep, just as the book of Hebrews explains.

Make up your mind

My mind is firmly made up, the law that we are speaking of is this...

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

What has changed is not the law being done away, but whose blood now satisfies this law. It took Christ's blood to remit our sins and the animal sacrifices were a shadow of what was predetermined before the beginning of the world...

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Taking away animal sacirfices that were a shadow of good things to come (not the very image itself). That is why they were continually offered, they showed the people that they were a shadow because they had to be continually offered. They could not purge the people of their sin, only Christ's blood or our own blood could. If we gave our blood (you realize this is figurative of death) then the debt is paid but we are dead. Christ, who was sinless and of more value than the entirety of all of creation, gave His blood (life), then He was able to pay the price for sin for all who have lived, are alive or ever will live.

Was the law on animal sacrifices abolished.
You seem to be claiming none of the Law was abolished

You seem to misunderstand that the law of animal sacrifices was the shadow of the perfect sacrifice of Christ. The perfect sacrifice of Christ did not do away with the requirement that sin brings death, it paid the death penalty in our stead.

EXACTLY the law was fulfilled. We are no longer bound by it. The Old Covenant is finished.

Paul has another angle on this:

Are you unaware, brothers (for I am speaking to people who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over one as long as one lives? Thus a married woman is bound by law to her living husband; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law in respect to her husband. Consequently, while her husband is alive she will be called an adulteress if she consorts with another man. But if her husband dies she is free from that law, and she is not an adulteress if she consorts with another man.
In the same way, my brothers, you also were put to death to the law through the body of Christ, so that you might belong to another, to the one who was raised from the dead in order that we might bear fruit for God. For when we were in the flesh, our sinful passions, awakened by the law, worked in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are released from the law, dead to what held us captive, so that we may serve in the newness of the spirit and not under the obsolete letter. (Rom 7:1-6)
We are put to death to the Law
We are released from the Law

Note particularly that this is particularly relevant because God considered himself “married” to Israel. When Jesus died the Covenant ended and Jesus was free to take a new bride – the Church.

John, you and Raeneske seem to be going over the same points that I have dealt with at least once already.

Unless you have anything new I'm leaving this. I'm too busy to keep going over the same arguments repeatedly and (seemingly anyway) to have them ignored.

Mungo

It has been a pleasure discussing this with you and blessings to you.

 

[Raeneske]

Already answered in –post #49



Already answered in post #21 & post #23

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I have repeatedly shown that The Law of Moses and the Law of God is the same.


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Note verse 9
The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
What other commandments are there? Answer - many. They are all through Exodus. Leviticus and Deuteronomy. Are you nullifying all the other commandments that God gave us?




Jesus and the Pharises kept the Sabbath day because they were Jews and live when the Old Covenant with the old laws were still operative.

Jesus prayed they would not have to flee ton the Sabbath day because the gates of Jerusalem were shut and Jews might kill anyone fleeing on the Sabbath day, therefore breaking the Sabbath from their perspective.. Is was nothing to do with Sabbath keeping.

That you are unable to come up with anything better than that shows that your arguments are bankrupt.


Have you anything new that I have not answered already?

Perhaps you could get round to answerring some of my points that you ignore.

The only thing I will point out, is that Romans 13:8-10 is very clearly pointing to the 10 Commandments. It's not "any other command" in the Bible, or else you better start performing sacrifices again.

What started as a genuine question from you, seems to have turned into something else. I have answered all your points to the best of my ability. The only point I have not, or that has not been answered is why Jesus included "defraud not". That, I can admit too. The refusal to see the separation between the Law of God, and the "Law of Moses" leaves you on dangerous ground however. Yes, there is a point where it seems they may have been blended, but the word is very clear elsewhere that they are not. Using one verse to contradict everything the Bible is saying is not wise. We must find the harmony within that passage, not use it as a reason to dismiss the Law of God. The Word is plain about the separation between the "Law of Moses" and the 10 Commandments.

You may continue this conversation with others (not that I can stop you anyways), as for me, i'm done here.

 

[marksman]

I guess it is easier to do away with the 10 commandments. That way we can make up the rules as we go along and which suits our denominational emphasis. I have noticed that denominations that defend ignoring the 10 commandments, defend ignoring a lot of other things in scripture as well.

Unfortunately, most denominations build their regime on a particular emphasis to give them a distinctive, whether it is scriptural or not.That then gets institutionalised and they are forever rejecting truth to keep that distinctive alive because their faith is in that, not the word of God.

As we all know, the church has a very hard time admitting that it got it wrong. That is one of the reasons why it is stuck in a time warp from a long time ago. The attitude is that our denominations distinctives must be defended at all costs and because there is competition for gains and a desire to be seen as doing something, we repel all boarders. And, sad to say, our denominational distinctives are seen as giving us a superiority over those who believe differently, so much so, we have to put them right.

This is very evident by the fact that most churches in any given town never talk to each other except for a few formal occasions.

I will end with a true story related to me by a minister that attended the first meeting of a new ministers fraternal. He said that although there was an attempt to be open and share, it was obvious that no one was keen to give too much away.

This wiley old bird sized things up quite quickly. As he said, they were afraid that too much information might result in a bit of sheep stealing (competitive spirit).

His response? He said to them "If you can steal any of my sheep, you are welcome to them as obviously they were never committed to my fellowship."

His vision was the Kingdom of God, not his church. There is no harm in discussing anything, but the evidence for our discipleship is our love for one another, not doctrinal purity, so descending into argument and sarcasm is not going to achieve anything.

And I apologise ahead of any comment if what I have said offends anyone. Sometimes it is unavoidable as difference produces diversity.

 

[John_8:32]

I guess it is easier to do away with the 10 commandments. That way we can make up the rules as we go along and which suits our denominational emphasis. I have noticed that denominations that defend ignoring the 10 commandments, defend ignoring a lot of other things in scripture as well.

Unfortunately, most denominations build their regime on a particular emphasis to give them a distinctive, whether it is scriptural or not.That then gets institutionalised and they are forever rejecting truth to keep that distinctive alive because their faith is in that, not the word of God.

As we all know, the church has a very hard time admitting that it got it wrong. That is one of the reasons why it is stuck in a time warp from a long time ago. The attitude is that our denominations distinctives must be defended at all costs and because there is competition for gains and a desire to be seen as doing something, we repel all boarders. And, sad to say, our denominational distinctives are seen as giving us a superiority over those who believe differently, so much so, we have to put them right.

This is very evident by the fact that most churches in any given town never talk to each other except for a few formal occasions.

I will end with a true story related to me by a minister that attended the first meeting of a new ministers fraternal. He said that although there was an attempt to be open and share, it was obvious that no one was keen to give too much away.

This wiley old bird sized things up quite quickly. As he said, they were afraid that too much information might result in a bit of sheep stealing (competitive spirit).

His response? He said to them "If you can steal any of my sheep, you are welcome to them as obviously they were never committed to my fellowship."

His vision was the Kingdom of God, not his church. There is no harm in discussing anything, but the evidence for our discipleship is our love for one another, not doctrinal purity, so descending into argument and sarcasm is not going to achieve anything.

And I apologise ahead of any comment if what I have said offends anyone. Sometimes it is unavoidable as difference produces diversity.

You have shown some keen insight marksman. One way to deal with sin is to make it legal, do away with the law that defines sin. The Father and Christ, who authored the Law, chose to deal with it in another fashion...

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

All my life I have heard those who say, "Christ died for your sins", mostly from the crowd that wishes to do away with the law. Interestingly enough, Christ came and shed His blood and died to PAY FOR OUR SINS, not to do away with the law.

 

[mjrhealth]

Rom_4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

Rom_6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Rom_6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Keeping the Law may please the flesh, it is not pleasing to God. You cannot be saved by the law, and when under the law, Christ died in vain, for you there is only Judgement and death. If that is what you want, go right ahead.

In all His Love

 

[John_8:32]

Rom_4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

Rom_6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Rom_6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Keeping the Law may please the flesh, it is not pleasing to God. You cannot be saved by the law, and when under the law, Christ died in vain, for you there is only Judgement and death. If that is what you want, go right ahead.

In all His Love

Not what I read here...

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

or here...

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Oh my, here is one, you may want to cover your eyes...

Eph 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
Eph 6:2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise
Eph 6:3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

Paul was actually teaching obedience to the fifth commandment.

There seems to be a mistaken idea that God hates His own law. That is not what David thought and he was inspired to preserve this for us...

Psa 119:97 MEM. O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day.

Psa 119:172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.

Whoa, God's Commandments are righteousness? And this is god breathed...

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:


New International Version (©1984)
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

English Standard Version (©2001)
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

International Standard Version (©2008)
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Every Scripture passage is inspired by God. All of them are useful for teaching, pointing out errors, correcting people, and training them for a life that has God's approval.

Darby Bible Translation
Every scripture is divinely inspired, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for correction, for instruction in righteousness;

World English Bible
Every Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness,

Young's Literal Translation
every Writing is God-breathed, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for setting aright, for instruction that is in righteousness,

And what scriptures did Timothy have?

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

The Old Testament.

 

[Raeneske]

Rom_4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

Rom_6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Rom_6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Keeping the Law may please the flesh, it is not pleasing to God. You cannot be saved by the law, and when under the law, Christ died in vain, for you there is only Judgement and death. If that is what you want, go right ahead.

In all His Love

Just to build off John's message dear one, how can keeping the law pleash the flesh? The flesh yearns to lie, steal, be disobediant, fornicate, etc.
Keeping the law shows the enmity you are thus gaining through Jesus Christ's blood. Breaking the law is a work of the flesh.

Let none deceive you. He that doeth rightouesly is righteous; he that doeth unrightouesly is unrighteous. He that refrains his hand from stealing that candy bar is righteous. But it's only through Christ Jesus that he's obtained the ability to withhold himself from sinning. He that is born of God, sinneth not (which is transgression of the law). "My son, keep my commandments, and live". "Bind them upon thine neck, they shall be an ornament of grace".

 

[marksman]

Rom_4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

Rom_6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Rom_6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Keeping the Law may please the flesh, it is not pleasing to God. You cannot be saved by the law, and when under the law, Christ died in vain, for you there is only Judgement and death. If that is what you want, go right ahead.

In all His Love

You may be leading us up the garden path with this post brother. I can see what you you are trying to say, but without the context, as often is the case, you can make scripture say whatever you want it to say and as we all know, but have difficulty in admitting, the church generally speaking, makes a practice of doing this. That is why we have denominations.

As I understand these verses, they are not saying that you can forget the law (10 Commandments) because of grace. That is what I used to believe, but not anymore.

Now that I understand God's Sabbath rest for the sons of God, I no longer have to earn my salvation, because the price has been paid for my sin.

Now I understand that these verses are saying (in context), that you no longer have to keep the law to EARN YOUR SALVATION. Which means that we keep the law because of our salvation and which means that the 10 commandments are promises, not threats.

Because your salvation is a product of grace, keeping the 10 commandments is freedom, not bondage. I keep the commandments because of my love for him who saved me. It is important therefore to point out that keeping the 10 commandments will earn us nothing.

When you think about it, keeping the 10 commandments is the most logical thing in the world and whether you like it or not, you do keep them through the laws of the land which are based on the 10 commandments. There are variations and alterations along the way, but in essence the basis of law reflects the 10 commandments.

So sorry, you may say they have been done away with under the New Covenant , but you won't convince the lawmakers. because if you take away the 10 commandments, you remove the foundation of a civilised society.

 

[mjrhealth]

Php_3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

The law was made for the lawless.

Did you look at a girl the wrong way, you broke teh law.
Did you download a song illeagely, you broke the law,
Have you not forgiven someone, you have broken the law,
Did you receive more change than you should, You broke the law,
Do you want somethging that somene else has, you have broken the law

Gal_6:13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

It is impossible for man to keep the law, thats why God sent us His son.

In all His Love

 

[Raeneske]

Php_3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

The law was made for the lawless.

Did you look at a girl the wrong way, you broke teh law.
Did you download a song illeagely, you broke the law,
Have you not forgiven someone, you have broken the law,
Did you receive more change than you should, You broke the law,
Do you want somethging that somene else has, you have broken the law

Gal_6:13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

It is impossible for man to keep the law, thats why God sent us His son.

In all His Love

I said I was done with this topic, but I was wrong. I cannot keep away. There are souls crying in need of scriptural evidence.

The fact that we may have done all of which you just stated, doesn't change the fact that you're still supposed to keep it.

So, what you're saying is, Jesus died so that we no longer have to respect our parents, so that we can steal, so that we can commit adultery, so that we can worship idols, worship other gods, break his sabbath, take his name in vain, lie, murder, and covet? Is that why Jesus died, so we can do all that?

The fact that we have broken the Law of God does not permit us to break it anymore. As a matter of fact, if we are really Christians, we do not sin. "Whosoever is born of God sinneth not"(1 John 5:18). What is sin? "For sin is the transgression of the law"(1 John 3:4). That's not saying we don't make mistakes, but if you are a Christian, you do not deliberatly transgress that law.

The Law is connected to the throne of God. No amount of human strength of Satanic strength can do away with it. The Law is a revelation of the perfect standard of righteousness. It is a revelation of the Character of God. All 10 claims within it are perfect laws.

When we became Christians, Christ not only removed the penalty of transgression, he cleansed us from all unrighteousness. You started walking in the spirit, rather than the flesh. The Spirit can keep the Law of God. The flesh cannot. Sometimes the flesh overcomes us, and we sin. That is when we repent. Our father knows "The Spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak"(Matthew 26:41). But does this mean that you cannot keep the 10 Commandments? On your own fleshly self, you cannot. But if you are a "new creature"(2 Corinthians 5:17). You are reborn, and "whosoever is born of God sinneth not"(1 John 5:18). When Christ cleansed you from all unrighteousness, He gave you His strength to keep the law. It is His strength, and not our own that enables us. That's why it's written, "I can do all things through Christ, which strengtheneth me"(Philippians 4:13). Through Christ, we can be perfect. "Be ye therefore perfect, as your Father in Heaven is perfect"(Matthew 5:48, and Philippians 3:15). Through CHRIST. Once again, this is not saying mistakes won't happen. But the overall walk of the Christians life will become perfect.

If you deny that you can keep the Law of God, even with Jesus Christ, you have a verse on your hands that adequatly states what will happen in the last days. "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof"(2 Timothy 3:5). It is this form of Godliness, to claim to be a Christian, but to routinely deny the Power God has given you to overcome. You can keep the 10 Commandments, through Jesus Christ.

You see why faith is essential? Do you see why faith saves? Without faith, it is impossible to please God. You cannot do anything without faith. Faith in Jesus Christ helps you keep the Commandments. God has chosen that we are justified by our faith. Faith in Jesus, trust in His divine power and love to help you be overcomers. We must be overcomers of sin. Only faith can do this. Only by faith, can we grab ahold of the promise, to be a new creature. Only by faith can we believe that we are born of God. By faith we grasp the promises of God, by faith we get the strength from Christ, so that we do not sin, or break the law.

 

[mjrhealth]

You are right yet you are wrong. See we gentiles never had the law, we came to Christ under grace. The law was for the Israelites, the Jews. It is not mine, never was. We have one and that is to Love, In love we choose not to do those things, not because we have to but because Love says we shouldnt. You have a good understanding but you missed the point. I dont keep the law because I have to. we are not required to do so, we do what is right as best we can because Love says we should.

 

[Raeneske]

You are right yet you are wrong. See we gentiles never had the law, we came to Christ under grace. The law was for the Israelites, the Jews. It is not mine, never was. We have one and that is to Love, In love we choose not to do those things, not because we have to but because Love says we shouldnt. You have a good understanding but you missed the point. I dont keep the law because I have to. we are not required to do so, we do what is right as best we can because Love says we should.

I never knew how powerful a poem could be, until I saw this poem. But this is for everyone who says The Law, or the Sabbath is "Jewish".

When we present God's holy law,
And arguments from scripture draw,
Objectors say, to pick a flaw,
'It's Jewish.'

Though at the first the Most High blessed
And sanctified His day of rest,
The same belief is still expressed,
'It's Jewish.'

Though with the world this rest began,
And thence through all Scriptures ran,
And Jesus said "'twas made for man"--
'It's Jewish.'

Though not with Jewish rites,
which passed,
But with the moral law 'twas classed,
Which must exist while time shall last,
'It's Jewish.'

If from the Bible we present
The Sabbath's meaning and intent,
This answers every argument--
'It's Jewish.'

Though the disciples, Luke and Paul,
Continue still this rest to call
The 'Sabbath day', this answers all:
'It's Jewish.'

The good news teacher's plain expression,
That " Sin is of the law's transgression,"
Seems not to make the least impression--
'It's Jewish.'

They love the rest of man's invention,
But if the LORD's day we mention,
This puts an end to all contention:
'It's Jewish.'

O ye who thus GOD's day abuse,
Simply because 'twas kept by Jews,
The Saviour, too, you must refuse,
He's Jewish.

The Scriptures, then, we may expect
For the same reason you'll reject;
For if you will but recollect,
They're Jewish.

Thus the apostles, too, must fall;
For Andrew, Peter, James, and Paul,
Thomas, Matthew, John, and all
Were Jewish.

So to your helpless state resign
Yourself in wretchedness to pine;
Salvation, surely you'll decline,
It's Jewish.

You see, the Law of God is not just for the Jew. It's for the Christian too. The Law of God is what shows you actually love God. Have you ever questioned, how do you know if you truly love God? "If ye love me, keep my Commandments" John 14:15. This is the utmost expression of Love. To keep the Commandments of your Creator God. Keep Commandments 1-4, and that proves you love God. Keep Commandments 5-10, and that proves you love your Neighbor. Honestly take a look at each one of those Commandments, on your own time, and ask yourself "If I love God, would I break this commandment... If I love my neighbor will I break this commandment". See, only then are you loving God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and only then are you loving your neighbor as yourself. As Romans 13:8-10 says, "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." You see, Commandments 5-10 are summarized as "Love thy neighbor as thyself". The fact that they are summarized as such shows that, not only that they point back to the 10 Commandments themselves, but they show that their definitions are inclusive of the 10 Commandments.

You cannot possibly love your neighbor as yourself, if you break any of the commandments 5-10. If someone broke those commands, yet told you they love you completely and wholly, would you really believe them? A mistake is one thing, but if they deliberatly disregarded these commandments, and routinely stole from you, coveted your spouse, or lied to you, do they really love you? Of course not. It's impossible for them to prove they love you, if they disregard something which is so vital to love and salvation.

Keep the Commandments of God. Remember, blessed are they which DO the commandments (All 10) of God, for they have RIGHT to the tree of life. (Revelation 22:14).

You never keep the law to get saved as a Christian. You keep the Law because you ARE saved. If you truly love God and your neighbors, you will not break the law of God. Yes, as a Christian, you still must keep the law. But the keeping is not to obtain Salvation. The keeping is because you have obtained salvation.

 

[mjrhealth]

Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

I am agreeing with you, but when the law becomes a law unto itself it is no longer grace.

In all his Love

 

[Raeneske]

Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

I am agreeing with you, but when the law becomes a law unto itself it is no longer grace.

In all his Love

If I ever seem to be implying we keep the law to get saved, I must say that's not what i'm saying. I'm jealous for God's Law, as the Bible would describe it. So when it's belittled, I absolutely must make statements regarding it.

I keep the 10 Commandments, because I love God

The problem usually comes in, is when people try to say it's works when we tell them they should be trying to keep the law. It's just hard to explain that yes, faith alone saves you, and works are behind your faith, but your works can also inhibit your faith. A murderer cannor be saved, while claiming Jesus as Lord, but continually slashing people left and right without repentance. We cannot boldly transgress the law like that, and think we can still be saved. For one, Jesus says no murderers will be in heaven anyways. Or, it's like those who deliberatly lie, won't repent, and claim Jesus as Lord. They're not genuine, it's wolves in sheeps clothing. Revelation 22:15 is very open about liars not being in heaven.

In closing, I'm just adamant about that Law. The perfect revelation of His character must be kept. How can we claim to be like Jesus, if we ignore the 10 Basic precepts of His perfect love? You can scream you believe in Jesus all you want, but to knowingly and willingly slash that law away, your actions show you don't really love him. It's just lip service. And that is why it's important to show the Sabbath Commandment. It was placed in God's Moral Law for a reason. What Satan has done to blind Christians about it, has been incredibly crafty. But the decalogue will stand. For eternity.

 

[mjrhealth]

See the law is not our focus when it is than we are not under grace, You can see those under the law for the way the so much stick up for it. We gentles are not Under the law, neither are they our focus, Jesus is Lord in Him alone is our salvation, strving to keep the law leads to fear, fear is not from God. So many Christians strive to perfect themselves through them and in doing so do away with grace. Its not about doing bad thins , we choose to do good because that is what love does, it has nothing to do with keeping teh law.

in all His Love

 

[marksman]

So, what you're saying is, Jesus died so that we no longer have to respect our parents, so that we can steal, so that we can commit adultery, so that we can worship idols, worship other gods, break his sabbath, take his name in vain, lie, murder, and covet? Is that why Jesus died, so we can do all that?

I want to re-emphasise this comment of yours Raeneske as it is so vitally important because it is true.

I cannot see how you can embrace some parts of God's law and not others. If you accept the ones mentioned by you, how can you ignore number four when there is no indication that it is only for the Jews and the fact that the New Testament church met on the Jewish Sabbath. They obviously believed that it was not irrelevant and that none of Jesus teaching indicated its demise.

But I guess that is the nature of Protestantism. You pays your money and takes your choice and this has bred a competitive spirit that places more value on spiritual correctness than on "loving one another."

By the way, I Ioved your poem.