Salvation loss. Is it possible?

[Job]

I never started mine alone He started it.

Settle down. You know what I mean.

 

[mjrhealth]

Settle down. You know what I mean.

He HE

 

[FHII]

You open your bible and read.

Si what happens when you get to Romabs 19:17?

 

[FHII]

Not really. I started this journey all on my own. I know that sounds ridiculous but it's true.

So no one told you about Jesus or God until you read about him?

 

[FHII]

I don't recall saying that. Perhaps you could refresh my memory.

Is that not what you are implying? Tou seem reesistant to what Romans 10 is sating.

 

[DPMartin]

I believe it is possible for a heaven bound Christian to end up condemned. There are many passages describing this but I believe the parable in Luke 12:42-46 is one of the clearest.

In this parable, the word "manager" is singular, showing that there is only one faithful and wise manager being spoken of. Looking at the verses, we have:

a) V.42 tells us of a faithful and wise manager (obviously a saved man) who is put in charge while the master (Jesus) is away.

b) Vs. 43-44 say that the servant will be rewarded and put in charge of all the master's possessions if the master returns and finds that the servant has remained faithful.

c) Vs. 45-46 then tells us that the same servant will be condemned and assigned a place with the unbelievers (in hell) if the master returns and finds that he is sinning and mistreating the other servants etc.

To say that the servant will be assigned a place with unbelievers makes it obvious that he was a believer initially.

To me, this is one of several parables and passages which clearly show that a Christian can be rewarded or condemned, depending on his actions.

Loss of salvation is a vitally important issue.

What do you think of this parable?

Eze 33:10 Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live? 11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth. 13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it. 14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right; 15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die. 16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live. 17 Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.
Eze 33:18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. 19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby. 20 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.

hence man receives his own judgement, Jesus said the Father judges no one.
Joh_5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

man receives the result of his own judgement, because God's Judgement is Life, any other isn't, and is an abomination to life, condemnation.



All men have sinned, therefore all men are condemned in his own righteousness, but the wicked repent and are saved. Jesus said He came to save the sinner not the righteous.

Mat_9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Souls of men are saved by God's Righteousness not, their own righteousness therefore, all men are wicked from their youth:

Gen_8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.



hence in being born the Holy Spirit, how can that which is of God Himself be condemned, when its is the Life of Christ that is received when one is born again?

therefore:

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one.


If you believe you are fallen from the Grace of God in His Righteousness, then you were never there in the first place.

 

[bbyrd009]

Scripture does assert that it is possible to be "too good."

 

[BreadOfLife]

I did, PAul was arrogant enough to think He could outdo Jesus, funny thing about men being a disciple and still had issues. and here you are just like Him trying to improve on Jesus, cant wait to see teh outcome.

So THAT'S you answer??
That Paul was "arrogant"? That the Sacred Scriptures are wrong??

You have GOT to be kidding . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

You are simply muddying the water over repentance to hide your inability to defend your statement that the prodigal son is a picture of a loss of salvation.

You have already lost that argument, and now attempt to divert attention elsewhere. See, I remember you. Remember (John 10:26)? I do. And you perverted it.

Stranger

Wrong.
I and others have exposed every pone of your embarrassingly ignorant positions on this and have blown you out of the water using nothing but Scripture.

John 10:26 is referring to Christians.

 

[BreadOfLife]

What lie. I said we are his sheep before we believe. But, it is not I that said it, it is Christ. (John 10:26) The lie is what you are trying to bake. wordsmith

Stranger

No - YOU said it in post #337.
Don't blame Jesus for YOUR lies.

We're only His Sheep because we believe - and not before. . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

I am not sure why BOL replied to a reply I gave which was for you, but hey live and let live ( as it won't always be so ). amazing how many want to add all sorts of things to christs finished work. If ONLY they would BELIEVE !

And if only YOU would obey.
Even the demons "believe" (James 2:19) . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

You open your bible and read.

There was NO Bible when Paul wrote Romans 10:17.
There was just the OT, Einstein . . .

 

[Stranger]

Wrong.
I and others have exposed every pone of your embarrassingly ignorant positions on this and have blown you out of the water using nothing but Scripture.

John 10:26 is referring to Christians.

Oh, John 10:26 refers to Christians. That is real deep. But we wern't talking about that. We were stalking about the sheep being sheep before they believed. Remember? Remember how you twisted the Scripture to say just the opposite of what it says? Remember that? I do, oh wordsmith.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

No - YOU said it in post #337.
Don't blame Jesus for YOUR lies.

We're only His Sheep because we believe - and not before. . .

Twisting words again arn't you? In your post #359 you claim I lied. You quote part of a sentence of mine from my post #356 and then say I lied because of what I said in my post #337.

But there is no lie. In #337 I said (John 10:26) proves that we are His sheep before we believe. And in #356, had you copied the whole sentence, I said that it is not I that said it, it is Jesus Christ.

Thus by your manipulation of what I said, you present what appears to be a lie. Thus you say I have lied. But, who is now the liar? You twist my words as you do everything else.

Stranger

 

[Helen]

Absolutely! I men even Peter and John to an extent spoke of stirring up our pure minds, reminding us and that we know these things. But its the Bible that does it. And are you so aged that you are no longer a young new Christian? If there is nothing more you can learn, then I will retract that question.

Yep. Heard that one before. Did I say it was a rented building? When you read the Bible the folks in that day gatjered together not only in sprit, but in body. I am not angry at you, but I do get angry at folks who say, "well. The Church isn't a building!" of course its not, but the Body of Christ (the church) physically came together and met for the purposes of worship. Paul demanded leadership and a sense of order. Makes no difference whether it was in a rented hall, a bought building, under an old oak tree or Wrigley Field. The fact is the church was the Body of Christ and they went to "church" which was a gathering.

"Church" is the Body of Christ: his folowers. His sheep. But they gather together in a body in one place. There are rules (so to speak) about how this is done. There is leadership and order.

Thank you for that.

There is a lot there to answer...forgive me if I don't 'dot every I and cross every T. '
Firstly yes. I am sure if Abraham had a bible he would read it! And agree He didn't have Christ 'as we do' ..but if we believe that the Lamb and God were One then he did.
I guess it depends on what we each believe , so we aren't always on the same page..but if , like me, you happen to believe that Melchizedek was The Christ before He laid down His glory and because Jesus..then yes he did!! ...Abraham saw Christ/The King of Salam face to face when He met him after the war...and he spoke with and paid tithes to Melchizedek. ..(but that is another story)
But back to our chat about the bible..
You said:- even Peter and John to an extent spoke of stirring up our pure minds, reminding us and that we know these things. But its the Bible that does it.
My answer is :- No it is not, it is God's Spirit speaking to us through the written word that 'does it.'.
Before we were christians a friend went to jail for stealing a car...he read the bible through twice while he was there...it was just "a book" it spoke nothing to him at all. God's Spirit did not anoint the pages.
The word without the Holy Spirit is nothing more than just dead letter.

I saw in another post, that you mentioned me being asked by God not to read the bible for a year. I'll make a guess here , because you believe how you believe, that *you think it was deceived by "another spirit" that spoke that to me? Well let me tell you this.
I was actually very unhappy when God asked me to lay my bible down for a YEAR!!
It scared me. I was afraid that I could not 'stay true' without my bible.
I was afraid that I would lose contact with God.
The reason being, much like you probably, I had been brain-washed that a Christian MUST read the bible every day to hear God's voice!!! I believed it.
It was " the christian thing to do"
But God was teaching me something...He was showing me that my life was in Him, not in the "fourth part of God"...*some Christian seem to have The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit, and The Bible , as all equal parts of the Godhead!!
God loved me enough to give me this lesson, that if I could trust Him, I still had His word with me and in me.
I had an empty journal and a pen by my bed. I would wake up in the middle of the night with scriptures rolling through my spirit joyously, and God would show me things about whatever scriptures He was giving me.

Okay, how would *you feel if God asked you to lay your bible down, and just trust your relationship with Him through His Spirit. ?
That is the acid test of our relationship...how much do we truly trust God to be God in our lives?
I was scared, but it was a wonderful, wonderful year.

As for Church services. I am not disagreeing.
When we had our own Church back in England, we were there 4 times a week, we moved in Body Ministry..."every joint supplying".
We taught our young people as soon as they were saved, that they were a vital part of the Body of Christ. ( that does not happen in any Church I have been in our here!! Just the opposite)
We taught them to have their inner-ear tunes to God's Spirit.
If they got a song, they would sing it, if they had a prophesy, they would share it, if the had a tongue they would speak, and another would interpret. The old, the young and the in-between all flowed freely as a body.
Did we ever have to take them to one side and show them where they maybe moved in enthusiasm and not in God Spirt..YES.. ( BTW four of them went into the ministry...)
When God spoke for us to come to Canada...for a decade it was good..the Church flowed fine...we had a small group when we first moving to this city... but our life changed, we had my parents with us in their 90's, they got sickly , I had them at home...until they passed on. ( It was 100% commitment of time)
In this City we have not found such church meetings that are spoken of by Paul in the scriptures. I'm sure if our Job here found such a new testament church where he lives , that was alive and free-flowing in God's anointing...he would be there in a heart beat. Meetings where God is in control are too exciting to miss.
But, I will not just go go a dead, boring, church meting , where someone has been paid to be a pastor, just because "It's the thing to do". I have been long delivered from "Ought-to."
God has all kinds of colours, flowers, animals, trees in this world..and of Christians it seems too. We must all do as God is speaking for us to do. It is to Him that we answer and to Him will will have to give account.
Sorry this has become so long...I am sure others gave up reading this paragraphs back!!

 

[Job]

Is that not what you are implying?

No, those are you assumptions regarding me.

 

[Job]

Si what happens when you get to Romabs 19:17?

Why do you assume that I'm ignorant and unlearned?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Oh, John 10:26 refers to Christians. That is real deep. But we wern't talking about that. We were stalking about the sheep being sheep before they believed. Remember? Remember how you twisted the Scripture to say just the opposite of what it says? Remember that? I do, oh wordsmith.

Stranger

You're not one of Christ's Sheep until you come to Him in faith and are Baptized (Mark 16:16).
To think that you can be one of His Sheep PRIOR to having faith in him is a false Calvinist belief. Are you now claiming to be a Calvinist?

NOWHERE is this bizarre belief supported by Scripture OR the 2000 year old teachings of the historic Christian faith.

 

[Job]

So no one told you about Jesus or God until you read about him?

Why is that so hard for you to believe?

 

[Marymog]

I believe it is possible for a heaven bound Christian to end up condemned. There are many passages describing this but I believe the parable in Luke 12:42-46 is one of the clearest.

In this parable, the word "manager" is singular, showing that there is only one faithful and wise manager being spoken of. Looking at the verses, we have:

a) V.42 tells us of a faithful and wise manager (obviously a saved man) who is put in charge while the master (Jesus) is away.

b) Vs. 43-44 say that the servant will be rewarded and put in charge of all the master's possessions if the master returns and finds that the servant has remained faithful.

c) Vs. 45-46 then tells us that the same servant will be condemned and assigned a place with the unbelievers (in hell) if the master returns and finds that he is sinning and mistreating the other servants etc.

To say that the servant will be assigned a place with unbelievers makes it obvious that he was a believer initially.

To me, this is one of several parables and passages which clearly show that a Christian can be rewarded or condemned, depending on his actions.

Loss of salvation is a vitally important issue.

What do you think of this parable?

Hi Mick,

I agree with you. The only thing I would add is what it says in Matthew which is he who endures to the end shall be saved. That passage means that if you don't endure till the end you will loose your salvation.

Love Mary