Dear Dragonfly,
You said,
Joe, I cannot say how much I disagree with this paragraph you wrote. It is full of corrupt and unbiblical ideas. No doubt there are others in the world who seek to synthesise good and evil rather than accepting God's solution to both, that they may eat of the Tree of Life.
There is a qualitative difference between God and His creation, which you seek to smooth over by the thesis you present, as if God is like us. No. God is not like us, but we can be like Him if we obey His plan of salvation through Christ Jesus. However, we will never be in the same unique class as Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of the Father.
The truths that I expressed come from scripture. I understand all too well that those truths don't line up with what the "church" teaches. Mainstream Christian teaching is not scripture based but comes from the carnal reasoning of man. It is the mainstream doctrines of the church that are corrupt. What could be more corrupt than to say that Christ will FAIL in saving the world? The only thing I can think of that would be more corrupt would be to combine that failure with the doctrine of hell. Do you not know that the penalty of sin is death? But the church does not believe that judgment is sufficient. They had to replace death with the pagan teaching of hell. Now that's a punishment! Not only is there no redeeming purpose for hell, it is also supposedly everlasting. Only Satan could be the inspiration for something that cruel and evil. If you believe that the God you serve could and will send billions and billions of His children to hell for all eternity, then you and I certainly follow different Gods. [/font]
Do you believe that your God is going to derive "pleasure" from knowing that most of His creation is suffering in the fires of hell?
Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
He created us to give Him pleasure so you must believe that those suffering in hell will give Him pleasure. And that must be the reason that hell is eternal so that His pleasure will never end. NO!! Here is what will give the Lord pleasure:
Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
What gives God pleasure is when the wicked repent. He does not receive pleasure from tormenting someone in fire for all eternity. Only a sick and evil mind would think God could do such a thing as the doctrine of hell teaches. And the "church" calls it justice! It is no wonder that Christ is going to say to those in the "church":
Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
The God I serve is loving, merciful, self-sacrificing and patient. He did not create mankind so that He could torment them in fire for all eternity.
Do you not know that the Father gave Christ the mission to save the world because He loves us?
1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
If Christ does not save the world, and that means all of mankind, then Christ and the Father will be failures. I know from scripture that Christ will not fail - not for one soul and I have the faith to believe it.
1 Tim 2:4-6 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1Cor 13:8 Love never fails;
In accordance with God's plan for each and every one of us, He has appointed a time for each of us to turn to Him and repent. He wants it to happen, He has a plan for it to happen and He will make it happen, afterall, He is God.
Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do. (Darby)
Isa 46:10-11 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
God's plan is to save the first fruits (His true church) of the harvest first and then at the end, He will harvest the full crop of mankind. Your belief that only the church can and will be saved is causing you to err concerning the salvation of everyone else. God's plan for saving His church occurs during this age and only this age. But His plan for the main harvest of mankind is accomplished in the final age.
There is no time limit on accepting Christ and entering the Kingdom of Heaven.
Lam 3:22 The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; his mercies never come to an end;
However, there is a time limit on being saved into the church. This lack of understanding this difference is a major stumbbling block for many.
2Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
If Christ is "not willing that any should perish", just who or what is going to stop Him from accomplishing His mission of saving the world? Also, notice that He is not willing that any should PERISH, after all, perishing (dying and staying dead forever) is the penalty of sin, not hell.
Now tell me again that Christ is going to fail to save the world and tell me just who is going to cause Him to sin and fall short of His goal of saving all of mankind. Scripture says no one or no thing can stop Him. He will cause everyone to repent and turn to Him at the time of HIS choosing. Paul, was the “chief of sinners” and Paul repented and accepted Christ in a moment of time. If Paul, being the chief of sinners, can turn so quickly, surely Christ will have no problem with the rest of mankind.
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
It is God which causes us to “will and to do His good pleasure”. And what gives God pleasure? The repentence of the wicked does according to Eze 18:32. The “church” has lowered God’s abilities to the level of that of mankind. It is easy for the Lord to cause the wicked to repent. The wicked are too weak to resist the power and love of God.
Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
And the “church” believes that mankind’s will is just too much of an obstacle for God to overcome! God created mankind’s “will” and according to scripture, He knows how to control it.
God has the love and desire to save all of mankind, God has the power to save of all of mankind and scripture says that He will save all of mankind:
Isa 45:22-23 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Every knee will confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father because Christ completed His mission to save the world. Every knee that confesses that Jesus is Lord is filled with the Holy Spirit and is in the Kingdom of Heaven.
1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
You said:
Most certainly it is talking about his appearance in the first instance, as this is what Adam lost, and went on to beget progeny in his own likeness, instead of in the likeness of God. Genesis 5:1, 2, 3. It is God's image in us - His likeness - which He seeks to restore. This is the primary cause of salvation - the restoration of the sons of God, that they be clothed again with the glory which Adam so haplessly lost in Eden.
Adam was without sin when he was created and because of his sinless condition, he had a relationship with God. But Adam was created carnal and spiritually weak. It was His weak spiritual condition that allowed him to sin. If He was made in God’s image with God’s Spirit, then it would have been impossible for him to sin. Christ is the sinless example of having a physical (carnal) body and the full measure of God’s Spirit. Adam did not have God’s Spirit dwelling inside him. As I said, if he had God’s Spirit, then he would not have sinned. But Adam did sin because God made us spiritually weak and lacking. God created a way for our relationship with Him to be restored and that way was accomplished by the work of Christ at the cross. Because of Christ’s work, our sin debt has been paid but more must be done before we can have a relationship with God. We must be “in Christ” for the relationship to be restored. Christ came and paid the sin debt. Now He is working on restoring each individual person’s relationship with God. He took care of the sin debt at the cross but the process of restoring each individual is a long process that will take this age plus two more ages to complete. John 10:10 summarizes what He came to do:
John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
Christ gave us “life” at the cross and He is using the process of conversion to give each of us life more abundantly. The first fruits are first to enter the Kingdom of Heaven and then the full harvest of mankind will come later.
You said:
God did not make us evil. That was Satan's lie to Eve, which because she believed, and Adam accepted her testimony about the fruit - even though he had received the word of God directly from God and was under no illusion as to 'the truth' - he chose to eat. Rom 5:12.
God did not make us evil but He made us too spiritually weak to avoid becoming evil. When he made Adam, Adam was without sin and had a relationship with God, but He soon became evil when he sinned and lost that relationship.
You said:
This is another manifestation of the lie - 'a lot of learning'. 2 Timothy 3:1 - 7 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with diverse lusts, ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
This is a perfect description of the harlot church with all her “learned doctrines” but unable to come to the knowledge of the truth.
You said:
This is another lie. Christ is not going to save everyone. Only those who obeyed God personally. Yes, Christ died for everyone, but not everyone wants to be saved, and so they will receive their wish. This is clear from so many different places in scripture, that I'm only going to quote a couple of them. Daniel 12:2, John 5:29. Then there is this which Jesus said: John 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gave me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gave them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gave me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou did send me. 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou has given me; for they are thine. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.... 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Christ is speaking of His church that He came to build. He is not trying to save anyone at this time. That is why the Gospel is hidden from the world and only revealed to those who Christ has chosen for His church. That is why Christ spoke in parables and Revealation is a book of spiritual symbols. Christ even said that the words He spearks are “spirit”. It takes spiritual eyes and ears to truly understand what He said. At this time, Christ only heals the spiritual eyes and ears of those He has chosen for His church. This is the church age, the time of the harvest of the first fruits of the Kingdom. You must rightly divide the Word. I recently posted an explanation of how and why Christ hides Himself from the world and from the carnal church at this time. It is posted in the thread entitled “Why I never go to church” in the debate forum.
You said:
The use of the phrase 'in Christ' refers to those who have believed into Christ. There are no unbelievers 'in Christ'. Those Old Testament souls who walked with God before and during the Mosaic covenant are accounted into eternal life by their faith. Hebrews 11:39, 40
1Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
This scripture is not hard to understand. It says that “as in Adam all die”. That means everyone who has ever lived (all of mankind), has or will die because of Adam. Adam’s sin debt was passed down to all of Adam’s decendents.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Now continuing on with 1Cor 15:20-28, “even so in Christ shall all be made alive”. The “all” that died because of Adam is the same “all” that will be made alive in Christ – that is all of mankind. It’s just not that hard to understand.
Paul continues on and lets us know that there is an order to saving all of mankind. All men will come to Christ at the appointed time. The first fruits (church) will be saved “at his coming” and the remainder of the world be saved at the end (then cometh the consummation) when the full harvest is brought into the Kingdom of Heaven. Christ then delivers up the Kingdom to the Father and God is “all in all” – no one is left out and no one is dead because death was defeated. There is no mention of anyone being in hell because the doctrine of hell is a manmade fable. Christ wins the total victory over mankind that the Father sent Him to win. Christ’s love did not fail. But as I have said, the “church” teaches that Christ will fail and fail miserably. And to make matters worst, the “church” says that death is no longer the penalty of sin but that a life of torment in the fires of hell is. Jesus Christ and the God He serves love their enemies and they do good to them. Doing good to them is causing them to repent and turn to Christ – certainly not tormenting them in fire for no redeeming purpose. Those in the “church” who teach this hell doctrine will be held to account at the time of their judgment!
You said:
I hope you're going to supply some scripture for 'the salvation of all of mankind'... thanks?
I have already listed a few but since you asked, I will quote a few more:
John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
The Father has given “all things” to Christ and that same “all” will come to Christ.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Col 1:16-20 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
2 Cor 5:18-21 and all things are of the God who has reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and given to us the ministry of that conciliation, how that God was in Christ, reconciled the world to himself, not reckoning to them their offences; and putting in us the word of that reconciliation. We are ambassadors therefore for Christ, God as it were beseeching by us, we entreat for Christ, Be reconciled to God.
Rom 11:25-32 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Rom 5:15 But shall not the act of favour be as the offence? For if by the offence of one the many have died, much rather has the grace of God, and the free gift in grace, which is by the one man Jesus Christ, abounded unto the many. (Darby)
Rom 5:18-19 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life. For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous. (Darby)
1 Tim 4:10-11 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. These things command and teach.
Matt 18:11-14 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Acts 3:20-21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
You said:
There is a great deal in scripture which must be left out, to accommodate the views you have expressed. Be ware.
There are NO scriptures that must be left out. God’s Word does not contradict itself. You must rightly divide the word and be guided by the Holy Spirit for understanding. The Word is spirit and one MUST have spiritual eyes and ears to understand it and find the knowledge of God.
You said:
Just a final word. There is no plan by God to turn men into mini-gods. We are to be His children, in absolute subjection to Him by our own volition, as Jesus Christ showed, that a son is a servant to His Father's will. If we can't abide the thought of not having freedom to roam the universe doing what we like, then we are showing ourselves to be children of Satan, and not children of the Father who created all things for His own pleasure.
“mini-gods” is not my word nor is it from scripture.
The whole of scripture concerns God’s plan for making us into His image, for making us into His children.
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Joh 10: 34-35 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
You said:
We are to be His children, in absolute subjection to Him by our own volition, as Jesus Christ showed, that a son is a servant to His Father's will. If we can't abide the thought of not having freedom to roam the universe doing what we like, then we are showing ourselves to be children of Satan, and not children of the Father who created all things for His own pleasure.
We shall be made one with the Father just as Christ is one with the Father. When you see one of His children, it will be said that you are seeing the Father. This is accomplished by the indwelling of the full measure of the Father’s Spirit. At this time, those who have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, only have an earnest amount - in other words, we have a downpayment of what is to come later.
Our “absolute subjection to Him by our own volition” is not possible. Being one with the Father is only possible because of God’s Spirit dwelling inside us. God’s law will be written upon our hearts. We will only want the same things as the Father wants. We will be living completely inline with the Father’s will because He will be living in us by His Spirit.
Please read the thread I mentioned earlier in this post. It will explain why you cannot believe and understand scriptures as I do.
Sincerely,
Joe
