Saved By Fear?

[Stranger]

No. You're not listening. Knowing that I have a lot fewer hairs than my son is a lot different than making me have fewer hairs. Micromanaging is causing everything to happen. I know what all of my high school son's classes are, but I didn't choose his schedule for him. I helped by giving him some wisdom, but the choice of what classes he is taking was ultimately up to him.

It's like the example I gave earlier of the difference between knowing my little boy was going to bust his head on the wall, and me picking him up and intentionally busting his head on the wall. There is a huge difference.


No, I can't believe it because there are too many logic holes, and you're having to skew plain-as-day scriptures to work with it how you want. God wants everyone to be saved. When He sent His only begotten Son, He did it because He loves the whole world. You can't seriously tell me that God can look at individuals and want them to not be saved. It goes against every description of God's character and personality in the Bible.

A few biblical descriptions of God. God is merciful. If He looks at a person and doesn't allow them to have a chance to be saved, that is the opposite of merciful. God is a God of justice. If God judges a person as a sinner, but never gave them any opportunity to get out of that life of sin, yet He chooses other people to have that opportunity, and doesn't judge them by the same standards, how in the world is that just? And where do the scriptures come into play that say that God shows no favoritism, or God is not a respecter of persons? With your version of election and predestination, God absolutely shows favoritism. By what criteria does He pick and choose people? Saul despised followers of Christ and was involved in their persecution and murder. But God transformed him into Paul, one of the greatest apostles. Talk about someone who didn't deserve it. Why do other people deserve it so much less that God doesn't even give them a chance? And if it's about that at all, where does grace come into play?

Your version of election and predestination is so convoluted with contradictions and logic issues that it just doesn't make any sense to me. The way I described it in Post #36 makes a whole lot more sense and it doesn't contradict anything the scriptures say.

If God wants everyone saved, everyone would be saved. It is the will of God that causes the salvation of every individual. The will of man does not want God. God loved Jacob but hated Esau. God did not want to save Esau. It is always up to God who is to be saved. (Is. 6:9-10) "And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed."

As I have said, all men everywhere have turned away from God. They don't want God. God provides a salvation for all. Yet none will come to God unless He does a work in them to bring them to Himself. So, don't say none have a chance. But none will come unless God brings them. And it is up to God who He wants to bring. You dislike that. But you are not God. God is not unjust in sending all to hell. He is merciful in calling out some, His elect. Can God do with His creation what He wants? (Rom. 9:21-24) Are your ways more just than God's? (Is. 55:8-9)

And, did God not elect some angels also. And He provides no salvation for the non-elect or fallen angels. Do you see that as just?

Stranger

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, totally agree there...it's what I call 'Grace to the extreme ' it is grace with no accountability. It has given the depth of grace a bad name as it were.

Thanks for putting the word accountability in there.
It's called cheap grace. Everyone wants the grace, but not everyone is willing to accept the accountability toward God. I think churches forget to explain the word believe. To believe means to trust and to follow, to emulate. I now hear that we could be saved, but we don't necessarily have to be disciples.

John 10:27 Jesus said His sheep hear His voice and FOLLOW Him.
If we follow Him, we are His disciples!

 

[Stranger]

And herein is the problem.
You do not explain free will in the parameters of Christianity.
Free will DOES NOT mean you can jump out of a window if you will it and fly.
If you don't have the meaning of free will, of course you won't agree with it.

Free will merely means the ability to make a moral choice. It's the ability to choose sinning over not sinning, God over satan. Of course this will require outside influences...it requires putting our mind and our soul to work to understand which side of the great spiritual divide we wish to be on. This is ALL free will means.
John 3:6
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Natural man, flesh, will tend toward sin because his master is satan, once a person is born again, he will tend toward good because his master is God.
Romans 6:6

From the beginning of time God has given us the ability to choose:
Deuteronomy 30:19 admonishes us to choose life when given the choice of life and death.
Joshua 24:15 Joshua tells the people to choose whom they will serve.
their answer? "Far be it from us that we should forsake the Lord to serve other gods." It is their CHOICE to serve God or other gods.

In Mark 1:15 Jesus says to "repent and believe in the gospel".
Why is repentance necessary if it will be God who does the choosing?
Why is it necessary to send missionaries to foreign lands if God is going to choose who will be saved?

If Jesus tells us to repent and BELIEVE in the gospel, it means we have the free will choice to do this or He would not have said it.

Adam and Eve had free will to choose to eat the fruit. God said He made everything good. Then they CHOSE to eat the forbidden fruit. Please show me WHEN this free will was taken away from them. Scripture please. No stories about angels, fallen angels, fallen man, we all know this and it has nothing to do with free will. The angels also fell due to free will.

The absolutely worst part of Unconditional Election is that it makes God out to be a monster; choosing who will be saved and who will be lost. Thus making Him out to be a God without love for His creation and a God with no justice who does not give persons the opportunity to be saved, but arbitrarily sends them to hell.

This is NOT the God of the bible I read.

I did explain free will within the perimeters of Christianity. Because it doesn't matter if you're a Christian or not, if you jump out of that window your will is going to have consequences. And that is just one example. You have things working on your will. God does not. He acts only in accordance to what pleases Himself. Your will is not free. God's will is free. And only God's will is free.

I said, you have a will. And, I said you will choose. But you choose only because God's Spirit affects your will to that degree. Else you would not. If God does not do this, then you will not choose God.

Repentance and belief are necessary as I said, because God has not only chosen who is to be saved, but He has chosen the way they will be saved. They will choose to follow Him. But they can do this only after God does a work on their spirit and will. (2 Thess. 2:13)

No, it is you who are creating a monster out of God. You charge Him with being a monster though He in mercy has reached down to save some who never really wanted Him in the first place. Yet He is a monster you say. Though all have turned away from Him, He gave up His Son to save some who He chose to be saved. Yet He is a monster you say.

God doesn't answer to you concerning what He does with His creation. Does He? What God does is just. He doesn't do justly. Whatever He does is just.

Adam and Eve never had free will. They had a will. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil, Gods command not to eat, and the serpent in the garden all worked upon their will.

What, you don't like stories about the angels? Do you believe there are elect angels? (1 Tim. 5:21) Why didn't God provide salvation for the fallen angels? He provided salvation for man. Shouldn't you be claiming how God is a monster for not saving the fallen angels.

God does nothing arbitrarily.

Stranger

 

[GodsGrace]

If God wants everyone saved, everyone would be saved. It is the will of God that causes the salvation of every individual. The will of man does not want God. God loved Jacob but hated Esau. God did not want to save Esau. It is always up to God who is to be saved. (Is. 6:9-10) "And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed."

As I have said, all men everywhere have turned away from God. They don't want God. God provides a salvation for all. Yet none will come to God unless He does a work in them to bring them to Himself. So, don't say none have a chance. But none will come unless God brings them. And it is up to God who He wants to bring. You dislike that. But you are not God. God is not unjust in sending all to hell. He is merciful in calling out some, His elect. Can God do with His creation what He wants? (Rom. 9:21-24) Are your ways more just than God's? (Is. 55:8-9)

And, did God not elect some angels also. And He provides no salvation for the non-elect or fallen angels. Do you see that as just?

Stranger

God is not unjust in sending everyone to hell?
Why did He make us anyway? So we could all end up in hell?
So He's merciful in calling out SOME? How does He pick these persons?
Lucky for those who are called, but very unjust for those who are not.
Doesn't the OT say God is a God of justice?
Isaiah 61:18
For I, the LORD, love justice, and how do YOU reconcile that with your verse, Isaiah 6:9-10??
You must have big problems with the OT.

Isaiah 30:18
Therefore the LORD longs to be gracious to you, And therefore He waits on high to have compassion on you For the LORD is a God of justice; How blessed are all those who long for Him.

Job 34:12
"Surely, God will not act wickedly, And the Almighty will not pervert justice.

Deuteronomy 32:4
"The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He.

Psalm 99:4
The strength of the King loves justice; You have established equity; You have executed justice and righteousness in Jacob.
God did not hate Esau. God knew beforehand that Esau would give up his title for a bowl of porridge, so God acted accordingly. He said the older will serve the younger. Israel needed a strong leader, and Jacob was to be that leader. Foreknowledge is not causation.

Colossians 3:25
For he who does wrong will receive the consequences of the wrong which he has done, and that without partiality.
How can a just God give me the consequences of wrong I have done if He does not give me the opportunity to repent? How is that a just God?

And could you please explain this verse to me if it is God who does the choosing of who will be saved:

Romans 2:11
For there is no partiality with God.

Acts 10:34-35
34Opening his mouth, Peter said:
“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,35but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.

If God chooses who will be saved, there is INDEED partiality!
Is God partial or not?
Do we believe the bible or do we believe John Calvin?

 

[Stranger]

God is not unjust in sending everyone to hell?
Why did He make us anyway? So we could all end up in hell?
So He's merciful in calling out SOME? How does He pick these persons?
Lucky for those who are called, but very unjust for those who are not.
Doesn't the OT say God is a God of justice?
Isaiah 61:18
For I, the LORD, love justice, and how do YOU reconcile that with your verse, Isaiah 6:9-10??
You must have big problems with the OT.

Isaiah 30:18
Therefore the LORD longs to be gracious to you, And therefore He waits on high to have compassion on you For the LORD is a God of justice; How blessed are all those who long for Him.

Job 34:12
"Surely, God will not act wickedly, And the Almighty will not pervert justice.

Deuteronomy 32:4
"The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He.

Psalm 99:4
The strength of the King loves justice; You have established equity; You have executed justice and righteousness in Jacob.
God did not hate Esau. God knew beforehand that Esau would give up his title for a bowl of porridge, so God acted accordingly. He said the older will serve the younger. Israel needed a strong leader, and Jacob was to be that leader. Foreknowledge is not causation.

Colossians 3:25
For he who does wrong will receive the consequences of the wrong which he has done, and that without partiality.
How can a just God give me the consequences of wrong I have done if He does not give me the opportunity to repent? How is that a just God?

And could you please explain this verse to me if it is God who does the choosing of who will be saved:

Romans 2:11
For there is no partiality with God.

Acts 10:34-35
34Opening his mouth, Peter said:
“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,35but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.

If God chooses who will be saved, there is INDEED partiality!
Is God partial or not?
Do we believe the bible or do we believe John Calvin?

I don't have any problems with the Old Testament. God is just in what He does. If God sends 3000 to hell, He is just. If He saves 3000, He is just. What God does is just. Not what you claim He needs to do to be just.

(Rom. 2:11) says there is no respect of persons with God. And there isn't. All are guilty. Read (12-16). He could justly send everyone to hell right then, if He were a monster. But no, He is merciful and saves some. But because He doesn't save them all, you call Him unjust and a monster. Ridiculous.

(Acts 10:34-35) Of course every man that fears God no matter what nation he is from is accepted with God. But before that man feared God, It was God who elected him to that salvation so that he would fear God.

I believe the Bible.

Stranger

 

[forrestcupp]

Yes, totally agree there...it's what I call 'Grace to the extreme ' it is grace with no accountability. It has given the depth of grace a bad name as it were.

It's because most of those people don't understand what grace really is. They see it the same as like a "grace period" for your credit card payment. Your payment due date is on the 5th of the month, but as long as you pay it within the grace period, and get the payment in by the 10th of the month, you won't be penalized. They think grace is a buffer where you can get away with a certain amount before you've gone too far. Some people's buffer is a lot bigger than others.

But Titus has a completely different explanation of what grace is:

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
Titus 2:12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,

According to Titus 2, grace isn't the ability to get away with doing wrong; grace is the God-given power to live the way God wants us to live. People have it so backwards.

 

[forrestcupp]

If God wants everyone saved, everyone would be saved. It is the will of God that causes the salvation of every individual. The will of man does not want God. God loved Jacob but hated Esau. God did not want to save Esau. It is always up to God who is to be saved. (Is. 6:9-10) "And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed."

As I have said, all men everywhere have turned away from God. They don't want God. God provides a salvation for all. Yet none will come to God unless He does a work in them to bring them to Himself. So, don't say none have a chance. But none will come unless God brings them. And it is up to God who He wants to bring. You dislike that. But you are not God. God is not unjust in sending all to hell. He is merciful in calling out some, His elect. Can God do with His creation what He wants? (Rom. 9:21-24) Are your ways more just than God's? (Is. 55:8-9)

And, did God not elect some angels also. And He provides no salvation for the non-elect or fallen angels. Do you see that as just?

Stranger

See, we've given you many scriptures that point out that God does want everyone to be saved. You just have a pretty limited scope on the will of God. He wants everyone to be saved, but before anyone was even lost, He came up with His plan of salvation, and He put His own laws in place. In your mind, God is sovereign, and He can break His own laws if He wants to. In my mind, not only is God sovereign, but He's also omniscient, which means that He was fully aware of what He was doing when He created those laws, and so He doesn't want to break them. God can't be put in a box, yet He, of His own infinite will and understanding, chose to place Himself in a box that He created just to be able to interact with finite people who can't comprehend an infinite God.

He wants all men to be saved, but even more than that, He wants a people who want to be His people. So because of that, He gave us the right to choose Him or not choose Him. It's not outside of His sovereignty. That was His will, and how He sovereignly chose to set things up. He didn't have to make things that way, but He did.

Some key biblical truths: God wants all men (and women) to be saved. God does not show favoritism. We don't have any part in working out our salvation, but we do have to receive it in order for God's work to be activated in our lives.

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Romans 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Romans 10:13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

Once again, predestination is always spoken of in plurality, not individuality. Again, according to Galatians, Jesus is Abraham's only seed, and anyone who is in Christ is heirs to that promise. Jesus is the one predestined, and anyone who chooses to be in Christ is predestined with Him. Many are called, but few are chosen. Who are the ones chosen? Anyone who answers the call.

But even though the answer is so clear to me, I know that the Calvinist belief of predestination is held by a lot of people. And I know that neither of us are ever going to change the other's mind. And the only thing that matters is that you and I have accepted Jesus as our Lord and Savior, and we are brothers in Christ. Another thing that matters is this: If it ends up being true that God did pick and choose, and some people are elect, and others are not, you and I are not privy to that information, so that doesn't give us an excuse to not spread the gospel.

 

[twinc]

And herein is the problem.
You do not explain free will in the parameters of Christianity.
Free will DOES NOT mean you can jump out of a window if you will it and fly.
If you don't have the meaning of free will, of course you won't agree with it.

Free will merely means the ability to make a moral choice. It's the ability to choose sinning over not sinning, God over satan. Of course this will require outside influences...it requires putting our mind and our soul to work to understand which side of the great spiritual divide we wish to be on. This is ALL free will means.
John 3:6
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Natural man, flesh, will tend toward sin because his master is satan, once a person is born again, he will tend toward good because his master is God.
Romans 6:6

From the beginning of time God has given us the ability to choose:
Deuteronomy 30:19 admonishes us to choose life when given the choice of life and death.
Joshua 24:15 Joshua tells the people to choose whom they will serve.
their answer? "Far be it from us that we should forsake the Lord to serve other gods." It is their CHOICE to serve God or other gods.

In Mark 1:15 Jesus says to "repent and believe in the gospel".
Why is repentance necessary if it will be God who does the choosing?
Why is it necessary to send missionaries to foreign lands if God is going to choose who will be saved?

If Jesus tells us to repent and BELIEVE in the gospel, it means we have the free will choice to do this or He would not have said it.

Adam and Eve had free will to choose to eat the fruit. God said He made everything good. Then they CHOSE to eat the forbidden fruit. Please show me WHEN this free will was taken away from them. Scripture please. No stories about angels, fallen angels, fallen man, we all know this and it has nothing to do with free will. The angels also fell due to free will.

The absolutely worst part of Unconditional Election is that it makes God out to be a monster; choosing who will be saved and who will be lost. Thus making Him out to be a God without love for His creation and a God with no justice who does not give persons the opportunity to be saved, but arbitrarily sends them to hell.

This is NOT the God of the bible I read.

all this and other rubbish also because most have come off the track and are now tracking and interpreting on their own but claiming Holy Spirit inspiration and guidance - lets just simply ask again who did the saviour of the world come to save - once this is seen and grasped it all falls easily into acceptance - twinc

 

[Stranger]

See, we've given you many scriptures that point out that God does want everyone to be saved. You just have a pretty limited scope on the will of God. He wants everyone to be saved, but before anyone was even lost, He came up with His plan of salvation, and He put His own laws in place. In your mind, God is sovereign, and He can break His own laws if He wants to. In my mind, not only is God sovereign, but He's also omniscient, which means that He was fully aware of what He was doing when He created those laws, and so He doesn't want to break them. God can't be put in a box, yet He, of His own infinite will and understanding, chose to place Himself in a box that He created just to be able to interact with finite people who can't comprehend an infinite God.

He wants all men to be saved, but even more than that, He wants a people who want to be His people. So because of that, He gave us the right to choose Him or not choose Him. It's not outside of His sovereignty. That was His will, and how He sovereignly chose to set things up. He didn't have to make things that way, but He did.

Some key biblical truths: God wants all men (and women) to be saved. God does not show favoritism. We don't have any part in working out our salvation, but we do have to receive it in order for God's work to be activated in our lives.

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Romans 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Romans 10:13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

Once again, predestination is always spoken of in plurality, not individuality. Again, according to Galatians, Jesus is Abraham's only seed, and anyone who is in Christ is heirs to that promise. Jesus is the one predestined, and anyone who chooses to be in Christ is predestined with Him. Many are called, but few are chosen. Who are the ones chosen? Anyone who answers the call.

But even though the answer is so clear to me, I know that the Calvinist belief of predestination is held by a lot of people. And I know that neither of us are ever going to change the other's mind. And the only thing that matters is that you and I have accepted Jesus as our Lord and Savior, and we are brothers in Christ. Another thing that matters is this: If it ends up being true that God did pick and choose, and some people are elect, and others are not, you and I are not privy to that information, so that doesn't give us an excuse to not spread the gospel.

No, you haven't given many Scriptures, and I have explained the Scriptures you have given to show your err.

Why do you and GodsGrace avoid my question concerning the elect angels? Why does God not provide salvation for the fallen angels. Isn't He a monster for not doing that? What do you say? Is God just or unjust for not giving them a chance to be saved? What do you say?

Stranger

 

[Dcopymope]

No, you haven't given many Scriptures, and I have explained the Scriptures you have given to show your err.

Why do you and GodsGrace avoid my question concerning the elect angels? Why does God not provide salvation for the fallen angels. Isn't He a monster for not doing that? What do you say? Is God just or unjust for not giving them a chance to be saved? What do you say?

Stranger

God is even more justified for not giving team Satan another chance. As you say, they were elect, and most importantly, they don't operate off "faith", because they know God personally. They have seen Gods face and conversed with him regularly, as opposed to humanity that only had the knowledge of God and his law written on our hearts. If humans are without excuse despite only knowing of God, then the angels that rebelled will definitely be without excuse. Why anybody would even entertain the notion of giving Satan and his angel buddies another chance is beyond me.

 

[forrestcupp]

No, you haven't given many Scriptures, and I have explained the Scriptures you have given to show your err.

Why do you and GodsGrace avoid my question concerning the elect angels? Why does God not provide salvation for the fallen angels. Isn't He a monster for not doing that? What do you say? Is God just or unjust for not giving them a chance to be saved? What do you say?

Stranger

I haven't answered that question because neither you nor I could give enough biblical evidence for anything more than pure speculation. I can give you my opinion, though. If you take Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 to be talking about the fall of Satan, it gives us some hints. God didn't create the evil Satan; He created a beautiful and powerful angel that we call Lucifer. Lucifer was not always bad. At some later point, Lucifer became proud and wanted to usurp God's throne, but was cast down. If you follow that interpretation, and add Revelation 12 to it, it appears that Satan then conned one third of the angels to follow him.

So it seems to me that there was a point in time when the angels had a choice of whether to stick with God or follow Lucifer. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that makes it seem like God created angels that were destined to end up evil. That's actually kind of ludicrous when you consider the precedence of creation account that we do have.

Genesis 1:31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

As for your explaining the scriptures I pointed out, that was an extremely weak explanation that sounded a whole lot like you were twisting clear scriptures to fit what you wanted them to mean. The truth is God wants all men to be saved, and everyone to come to repentance. It's really silly to try to twist it, and it saddens me that you believe that there are people who God wants to not be saved.

You, and others, like to quote, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." But that way of looking at that scripture is pretty shallow. God was using extremes to make a point to the Jews because it was their mannerism and customs to speak that way with each other. Jesus did the exact same thing in His teachings. At one point, Jesus was teaching about discipleship, and He said this:

Luke 14:26 “If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.

So does Jesus actually want us to hate our family members? Evidently not, because at another time, He condemned the Pharisees for not honoring their fathers and mothers:

Matthew 15:3 And He answered and said to them, “Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?
Matthew 15:4 “For God said, ‘HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER,’ and, ‘HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH.’
Matthew 15:5 “But you say, ‘Whoever says to [his] father or mother, “Whatever I have that would help you has been given [to God,]”
Matthew 15:6 he is not to honor his father or his mother.’ And [by this] you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
Matthew 15:7 “You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:
Matthew 15:8 ‘THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
Matthew 15:9 ‘BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.’”

He doesn't contradict Himself. He was just speaking according to their customs to make the point that their love for Him should be so great that how much they love their families should seem like hate in comparison. That's exactly what God was saying when He said, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." Seriously, why do you want God to will some people to hell?

 

[Helen]

@forrestcupp Amen, I so agree. It seems that the majority of "Christendom" will be very disappointed if God, at the end says...spreads His arms and says-
"This was all a test on you all...to test if you really believed that I was a God of love or not. "
So many "Christians" seem very ho-hum for everyone else, except themselves to " Go To Hell".

 

[Frank Lee]

Those who have fled to him for refuge don't think about it. I DON'T know how I knew what to do because I had no man to tell me. My spirit man knew. All I knew was I was sick of the old me and if I could somehow get to God He'd make it all right. I didn't think of love but I did FEAR my past!

It shall always remain a mystery no matter how much it's discussed or what scriptures are quoted. It so true what the man said "all I know is that I was blind but now I can see"!

He didn't care about the how just that he could. I'm still amazed that He loved me enough to forgive me. You're all blessed that it wasn't up to me for you to be saved. Man's grace without God is pretty teensy.

 

[Stranger]

I haven't answered that question because neither you nor I could give enough biblical evidence for anything more than pure speculation. I can give you my opinion, though. If you take Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 to be talking about the fall of Satan, it gives us some hints. God didn't create the evil Satan; He created a beautiful and powerful angel that we call Lucifer. Lucifer was not always bad. At some later point, Lucifer became proud and wanted to usurp God's throne, but was cast down. If you follow that interpretation, and add Revelation 12 to it, it appears that Satan then conned one third of the angels to follow him.

So it seems to me that there was a point in time when the angels had a choice of whether to stick with God or follow Lucifer. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that makes it seem like God created angels that were destined to end up evil. That's actually kind of ludicrous when you consider the precedence of creation account that we do have.

Genesis 1:31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

As for your explaining the scriptures I pointed out, that was an extremely weak explanation that sounded a whole lot like you were twisting clear scriptures to fit what you wanted them to mean. The truth is God wants all men to be saved, and everyone to come to repentance. It's really silly to try to twist it, and it saddens me that you believe that there are people who God wants to not be saved.

You, and others, like to quote, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." But that way of looking at that scripture is pretty shallow. God was using extremes to make a point to the Jews because it was their mannerism and customs to speak that way with each other. Jesus did the exact same thing in His teachings. At one point, Jesus was teaching about discipleship, and He said this:

Luke 14:26 “If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.

So does Jesus actually want us to hate our family members? Evidently not, because at another time, He condemned the Pharisees for not honoring their fathers and mothers:

Matthew 15:3 And He answered and said to them, “Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?
Matthew 15:4 “For God said, ‘HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER,’ and, ‘HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH.’
Matthew 15:5 “But you say, ‘Whoever says to [his] father or mother, “Whatever I have that would help you has been given [to God,]”
Matthew 15:6 he is not to honor his father or his mother.’ And [by this] you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
Matthew 15:7 “You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:
Matthew 15:8 ‘THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
Matthew 15:9 ‘BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.’”

He doesn't contradict Himself. He was just speaking according to their customs to make the point that their love for Him should be so great that how much they love their families should seem like hate in comparison. That's exactly what God was saying when He said, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." Seriously, why do you want God to will some people to hell?

Scripture is clear that there are elect angels, just like there are elect men. Correct. (1 Tim. 5:21) Scripture is clear that an angel and other angels rebelled against God and is in rebellion to this day, as you pointed out. Scripture is clear that God has provided a salvation for man, but no salvation is provided for the fallen angels. And that the angels take part in helping with mans salvation. (Heb. 1:1-14) So, you have more than enough Scripture to know that God has not provided any salvation for any fallen angel. And that those that fell were not elect angels.

So, where is your righteous judgement against God for not providing a salvation for angels when He provided it for man? If there are 'elect' angels, then there are those who are not elect. And there are elect angels. Correct? And if they are not elect, then they are not going to remain with God. They are not going to follow God. Yet God created them, didn't He?

What is shallow about believing the Scripture that says 'Jacob have I loved and Esau I have hated'? Oh, I see. The deep meaning here is that God didn't really mean what He said. And Jesus didn't really mean to hate your family and follow Him. Oh that is deep. God just didn't love Esau as much. You are to love Jesus so much that it appears you hate your family. What is the difference if it appears you hate your family, and you hate your family? No, Jesus meant exactly what He said.

The believer is to honor his parents and family. But, if parents and family or anyone else come between the believer and God, he is to hate his parents and family and will hate his parents and family. That is not contradictory. And hate is the right word. Just like it is the right word when God said He hated Esau. Why did God hate Esau before he was even born? Because He knew him. Esau was not one of His. (Rom. 9:11) "...that the purpose of God according to election might stand...."

It is not a question of 'do I want God to do this'? It simply is a question of being honest with Scripture and God. You see, you and GodsGrace are reading into Scripture the type of salvation that man would have done if he made it. It fits more with your logic and doesn't offend you as much. God loves everyone. God has no elect.

And, if you believe this, then the question always remains, why did God create a salvation that only saved some and not all? I mean, if God is love, surely there will be none to go to hell. Surely a loving God wouldn't send someone to hell? I mean, He is God. Couldn't he make a salvation that got everyone saved. A salvation for the angels also. Surely He wouldn't send angels to hell either, would He? Based on what you and GodGrace have said, God is a monster Who sends any one, man or angel, to eternal hell.

Stranger

 

[mjrhealth]

If God wants everyone saved, everyone would be saved.

That is His will, but He wont oppose our will, God doesnt "send" people to heel it is there choice,

Deu_30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

couldnt be more obvious, a two choice question with the right answer given.

 

[Stranger]

@forrestcupp Amen, I so agree. It seems that the majority of "Christendom" will be very disappointed if God, at the end says...spreads His arms and says-
"This was all a test on you all...to test if you really believed that I was a God of love or not. "
So many "Christians" seem very ho-hum for everyone else, except themselves to " Go To Hell".

And what do you base this disappointment on? It can only be that believers have believed a lie. That the Bible is not true. That God did not mean it when He told us these things. That God lied to us.

If God has lied to us in the Scripture, then why do you believe anything in the Scripture? Why do you believe you are saved. Perhaps that is just a test.

Scriptures are clear there is eternal condemnation. Scriptures are clear as to who goes there. Just like they are clear that there is eternal salvation and who goes there.

Because you believe in universal salvation for all, the doctrine of the elect is especially repugnant to you.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

That is His will, but He wont oppose our will, God doesnt "send" people to heel it is there choice,

Deu_30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

couldnt be more obvious, a two choice question with the right answer given.

If God wanted to save everyone, why did he say what He did in (Deut. 30:19)? Why didn't He say something else that would insure no one went to Hell. He is God. Couldn't He do that if He wanted to save everyone?

Stranger

 

[mjrhealth]

If God wanted to save everyone, why did he say what He did in (Deut. 30:19)? Why didn't He say something else that would insure no one went to Hell. He is God. Couldn't He do that if He wanted to save everyone?

Stranger

Well we have not seeing the end yet, and God dosent always tell man what He is doing, we are incapable of keeping our traps shut, so why dont you just do as He says, and have Faith in Him and let Him do what He needs to do. As I said before, God would not start something He is unable to finish, would make Him a hypocrit

Luk 14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
Luk 14:29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
Luk 14:30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
Luk 14:31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
Luk 14:32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.

and the most important bit in it all,

Luk_7:42 And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?
Luk_7:43 Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.

 

[Stranger]

Well we have not seeing the end yet, and God dosent always tell man what He is doing, we are incapable of keeping our traps shut, so why dont you just do as He says, and have Faith in Him and let Him do what He needs to do. As I said before, God would not start something He is unable to finish, would make Him a hypocrit

Luk 14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
Luk 14:29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
Luk 14:30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
Luk 14:31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
Luk 14:32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.

and the most important bit in it all,

Luk_7:42 And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?
Luk_7:43 Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.

So God is going to save everyone He just didn't tell us about it? And what He did tell us of eternal condemnation and the lake of fire is a lie?

No wonder you don't believe the Bible.

Stranger

 

[forrestcupp]

Scripture is clear that there are elect angels, just like there are elect men. Correct. (1 Tim. 5:21) Scripture is clear that an angel and other angels rebelled against God and is in rebellion to this day, as you pointed out. Scripture is clear that God has provided a salvation for man, but no salvation is provided for the fallen angels. And that the angels take part in helping with mans salvation. (Heb. 1:1-14) So, you have more than enough Scripture to know that God has not provided any salvation for any fallen angel. And that those that fell were not elect angels.

So, where is your righteous judgement against God for not providing a salvation for angels when He provided it for man? If there are 'elect' angels, then there are those who are not elect. And there are elect angels. Correct? And if they are not elect, then they are not going to remain with God. They are not going to follow God. Yet God created them, didn't He?

What is shallow about believing the Scripture that says 'Jacob have I loved and Esau I have hated'? Oh, I see. The deep meaning here is that God didn't really mean what He said. And Jesus didn't really mean to hate your family and follow Him. Oh that is deep. God just didn't love Esau as much. You are to love Jesus so much that it appears you hate your family. What is the difference if it appears you hate your family, and you hate your family? No, Jesus meant exactly what He said.

The believer is to honor his parents and family. But, if parents and family or anyone else come between the believer and God, he is to hate his parents and family and will hate his parents and family. That is not contradictory. And hate is the right word. Just like it is the right word when God said He hated Esau. Why did God hate Esau before he was even born? Because He knew him. Esau was not one of His. (Rom. 9:11) "...that the purpose of God according to election might stand...."

It is not a question of 'do I want God to do this'? It simply is a question of being honest with Scripture and God. You see, you and GodsGrace are reading into Scripture the type of salvation that man would have done if he made it. It fits more with your logic and doesn't offend you as much. God loves everyone. God has no elect.

And, if you believe this, then the question always remains, why did God create a salvation that only saved some and not all? I mean, if God is love, surely there will be none to go to hell. Surely a loving God wouldn't send someone to hell? I mean, He is God. Couldn't he make a salvation that got everyone saved. A salvation for the angels also. Surely He wouldn't send angels to hell either, would He? Based on what you and GodGrace have said, God is a monster Who sends any one, man or angel, to eternal hell.

Stranger

You and I are so far apart on some issues, it's crazy. So you actually believe Jesus wants us to honor our parents, but at the same time hate them? I could go on and on with you forever, but there's really no point. Like I said before, neither of us are going to change our minds. The only thing that matters is that we're both saved and part of the same family, even though we disagree.

I do agree with you that Universalism is not right. There will be some people who don't make it. Wide is the gate that leads to destruction and many enter through it. We just disagree on how it happens. God doesn't send people to hell. People choose to be separate from God, themselves, and that is the only alternative.