I'm asking the difference between 'free will' and 'will'. Mainline Christianity may need to think a little bit about the words they use.
You have given no distinction between. Why?
Stranger
Saved By Fear?
- Thread starter GodsGrace
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
I'm asking the difference between 'free will' and 'will'. Mainline Christianity may need to think a little bit about the words they use.
You have given no distinction between. Why?
Stranger
This I know about angels,,,they already were in heaven and decided to leave it.
I don't think we know enough about angels to speak about them. I certainly don't.
Do you feel angels are like man? Then why didn't God provide a way back for them?
What do you think?
We know God provided a way of salvation for man. Genesis 3:15.
My main argument here is that WE chose God.
John 3:16
As for the monstrosity that God would have to be if HE chose who would be saved, He is not one for saving everyone for the reasons I've already stated...
1. God is a just God. He has shown us how to spend eternity with Him,,,it's up to us to follow His instruction.
Those who follow will be with Him.
2. Love must be freely given. God will not force everyone to love Him, thus not everyone will be saved.
3. God justly leaves our salvation up to us.
Rev. 3:20
Because I don't understand your distinction.
If we have a will, it is either free or not but it can't just be a will.
Maybe the way you use it is like this:
God wills that all men be saved.
But this only means "wants".
God would want all men to be saved...but not all men want to be saved.
It's up to you to make me know your understanding of will.
My problem is that you don't believe it's free.
You know there are elect angles, correct? (1 Tim.5:21) They didn't fall because they were elect. Why is God not a monster for electing some and not others?
I have no problem with the justice of God in not providing a salvation for the fallen angels. That is His prerogative as God. He is just in what He does. He doens't do justly as man sees Him.
Well you say God is a monster if He elects some and not others. But if He provides a salvation where some are excluded, why isn't He a monster?
There is no difference.
Stranger
Stranger, the difference is that God gives man the opportunity to be saved!
It's man's choice.
We end by agreeing to disagree.
I am saying there is distinction between 'free will' and 'will'. You apparently make no distinction. If one has a will then it must be free, I believe you are saying. That is where the confusion lies.
Do you believe God's will and mans will are the same. Both have a will. Are they the same?
Stranger
Well, even though God has elect some to salvation and others not to salvation, the opportunity is still there to be saved by both the elect and non-elect. It will also be by man's choice. Both the elect and non-elect will make a choice. So why is the doctrine of election so repulsive to you when the same things are accomplished?
Stranger
God can only will for good.
He is all good and can want only good. I do not attribute evil to God.
Even Jesus was full of grace, no room for evil.
In God's sovereignty He can do what He wants to, but He will never go against His nature.
2 Timothy 2:13 speaks to this.
His nature is love, God IS love. 1 John 4:8
He can do no bad.
Man can do either good or bad because, though created by God, he was born with the sin nature.
actually and strangely they are but lets settle exactly who the elect are and who the non elect - twinc
The elect is who God elected.
Who did Good elect? Israel. To bring salvation through this nation, as Romans 9 to 11 teaches.
There's no such thing as non elect.
Last edited:
how about a twinc parable to try and explain this = there will only be devils in hell which was prepared for the devil and his angels from the beginning - twinc
You're changing the subject. We are not talking about doing good or evil. We are talking the nature of the 'will'. So again, do you see distinction between the nature of the will of man and the nature of God's will? Or do you see them as just the same? God has a will and man has a will. And both exercise their will.
Stranger
Because Christ died for all and the invitation is for all. It is there for their taking.
Stranger
forrestcupp
Active Member
- Feb 10, 2013
- 271
- 150
- 43
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
The Bible mentions "elect angels," but it never goes into details about how that works. Can you show me any scriptural evidence that proves that the angels that didn't fall didn't fall because they were elect? As far as I can tell, there is nothing in the Bible that explains things that way. It's just as possible that the "elect angels" became elect because they chose not to follow Lucifer. And it's exactly the same possibility with people. You really don't have an argument here. You have to run and campaign before you're elected.
What if the elect is only a title for the end time 144,000 Jewish evangelists, and it's not talking about all people who are saved?
Helen
Well-Known Member
- Oct 22, 2011
- 15,476
- 21,157
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- Canada
This is an interesting conversation you have here with Stranger. I have been following along.
The best picture I see in scripture is:-
If there is no such thing as non-elect...why were not all of the tribe of Levi chosen ( elect) as the Priesthood?
And why could only Levi as priests , if there is no non-elect?
What about all the other tribes? Were they pond-scum in God's eyes.
No, obviously...all have their place, all have their calling...all have their job to do.
I believe this is what we also see in Peter , James and John...Jesus did not "elect" the others to go up the Mount with Him.
The pattern is there. There are Elect, and non-elect.
But each can do 100% of what they are called to do. And hear the- "well done thou good and faithful servant"
That is how I see it.
Helen
Well-Known Member
- Oct 22, 2011
- 15,476
- 21,157
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- Canada
The Bible mentions "elect angels," but it never goes into details about how that works. Can you show me any scriptural evidence that proves that the angels that didn't fall didn't fall because they were elect? As far as I can tell, there is nothing in the Bible that explains things that way. It's just as possible that the "elect angels" became elect because they chose not to follow Lucifer. And it's exactly the same possibility with people. You really don't have an argument here. You have to run and campaign before you're elected.
As far as you can tell you don't want to find anything in the Bible that explains things that way. (Rom. 9:11) "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth."
Election is not of men. It is of God. The men who are elect of God are chosen by God. The angels who are elect of God are chosen by God. It is the work of God, not men or angels. It is of "Him that calleth"
So, the choice of God comes first before the choice of any other creature is ever made.
Stranger
Similar threads
