Saying you are without sin verses in 1 John

[Davy]

It could be talking about the perspective of the writer, naturally.

This site is getting crazier by the minute!

Paul in Romans 3:25 specifically said "for the remission of sins that are past". The Greek word used is proginomai which means...

NT:4266
proginomai (prog-in'-om-ahee); from NT:4253 and NT:1096; to be already, i.e. have previousy transpired:

KJV - be past.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006, 2010 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

 

[marks]

Paul in Romans 3:25 specifically said "for the remission of sins that are past". The Greek word used is proginomai which means...

So let's talk about days that are past.

Are those days yet future? Or are they past?

Much love!

 

[Davy]

Very important brethren that we who have believed on Jesus Christ STILL NEED TO REPENT OF FUTURE SIN we may slip up and commit. And don't tell me you don't sin anymore, because you will CONTINUE to slip at times as long as you live on earth in this flesh body. If you think you don't sin anymore, then you make Jesus a liar, like Apostle John said in 1 John 1.

The example of Jesus' Messages in Rev.2 & 3 to the Churches in Asia that were in error, Jesus REBUKED AND COMMANDED THEM TO REPENT, and then gave them warning if they didn't. Those were BELIEVERS ON HIM.

 

[Davy]

You are proposing that it's a different point in time for everyone, determined by their coming to faith. Do you see Scriptures which clarify that's what God meant?

Much love!

No, I am not proposing that's it's a different point in time for everyone, determined by their Faith.

It's the same for everyone. At our FIRST BELIEF on Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and being baptized, that... is when all sins we did at that very point and backwards, are forgiven by Christ's Blood shed upon His cross.

Then per 1 John 1, we ALL need to repent of future sins we may slip up and commit. That is how we keep our 'walk' with Jesus when that future sin happens, and as long as we are in this flesh, we are not going to be absolutely perfect, because there is NO perfection in the flesh.

Did you know that the pagan ascetics, like eastern religions, actually think they CAN become perfect in their flesh? Their pagan belief teaches they can thus do their 'own' salvation. And when that happens, they believe, they are released from the 'wheel of karma and rebirth' (i.e., their belief in being continually reincarnated). In Buddhism they call that achieving the state of Nirvana. Can man really do that? No, of course not.

Likewise, with us in Christ, some tend to think along those eastern religious lines about their behavior, thinking they can literally be perfect like Jesus. Those do not grasp that by thinking that, they are saying indirectly, that they no longer need saving by Lord Jesus. Their thinking then goes back to the old temptation that old serpent did in God's Garden, about becoming your 'own' god.

Gal 3:22
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
KJV

Rom 3:23
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
KJV

 

[stunnedbygrace]

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started watching a second video by him then. I really like listening to this guy! In this video he’s talking about how months before a war, they send operatives in to get coordinates for taking down communications with satellite guided bombs so that when they decide to attack, those they’re attacking can’t hear and communicate and see the enemy coming. That’s where I’ve been. Great confusion and exhaustion and…not quite knowing what to do about it, but I did finally see that….well, anyway, check him out if you have time.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Do you want the same power of God in your life?

I disagree with your interpretation of these various passages. The Bible doesn't teach a "Star Wars" version of the faith as if one can appropriate the Spirit of God in order to lead a sinless life.

 

[Enoch111]

If you think you don't sin anymore, then you make Jesus a liar, like Apostle John said in 1 John 1.

I've been saying this all along, but some prefer to deceive themselves. Thus John says that the truth is not in them.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

If you think you don't sin anymore, then you make Jesus a liar, like Apostle John said in 1 John 1.

Did Jesus lie here @Davy ?

“go, and sin no more.” (John 8:11)

 

[Michiah-Imla]

some prefer to deceive themselves.

They sure do!

 

[marks]

No, I am not proposing that's it's a different point in time for everyone, determined by their Faith.

It's the same for everyone. At our FIRST BELIEF on Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and being baptized, that... is when all sins we did at that very point and backwards, are forgiven by Christ's Blood shed upon His cross.

Then per 1 John 1, we ALL need to repent of future sins we may slip up and commit. That is how we keep our 'walk' with Jesus when that future sin happens, and as long as we are in this flesh, we are not going to be absolutely perfect, because there is NO perfection in the flesh.

Did you know that the pagan ascetics, like eastern religions, actually think they CAN become perfect in their flesh? Their pagan belief teaches they can thus do their 'own' salvation. And when that happens, they believe, they are released from the 'wheel of karma and rebirth' (i.e., their belief in being continually reincarnated). In Buddhism they call that achieving the state of Nirvana. Can man really do that? No, of course not.

Likewise, with us in Christ, some tend to think along those eastern religious lines about their behavior, thinking they can literally be perfect like Jesus. Those do not grasp that by thinking that, they are saying indirectly, that they no longer need saving by Lord Jesus. Their thinking then goes back to the old temptation that old serpent did in God's Garden, about becoming your 'own' god.

Gal 3:22
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
KJV

Rom 3:23
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
KJV

Acts 17 KJV
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

I see that verse talking more like this one, that the sins before the cross are resolved, therefore, "sins that are past". Not, Sins that are before Sept 7,1981 for me, or sins that are past Oct 19,1972 for another guy, and sins that are past January 4, 1385 for someone else.

Rom 3:24-25 KJV
24 Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Sins that are past, in reference to the writer, not the reader.

Much love!

 

[marks]

that they no longer need saving by Lord Jesus.

The idea is that as Jesus lives in us, we can live His way. Becoming more sanctified is not becoming less saved, or less reliant on Jesus.

Much love!

 

[Davy]

I've been saying this all along, but some prefer to deceive themselves. Thus John says that the truth is not in them.

Yes, and many brethren also are not aware of how many of the ideas of eastern religion began to creep into America during the 1960's hippie and psychedelic movements involving eastern meditation and sorcery (drugs to induce altered mind states). Those are the very things the pagan nations were guilty of which God told the children of Israel to not do. And now they've got Oprah pushing many of those ideas on TV.

 

[Davy]

Acts 17 KJV
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

I see that verse talking more like this one, that the sins before the cross are resolved, therefore, "sins that are past". Not, Sins that are before Sept 7,1981 for me, or sins that are past Oct 19,1972 for another guy, and sins that are past January 4, 1385 for someone else.

Rom 3:24-25 KJV
24 Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Sins that are past, in reference to the writer, not the reader.

Much love!

The reference is to the BELIEVER, regardless of the day and time when they first believe on Jesus Christ.

 

[Davy]

The idea is that as Jesus lives in us, we can live His way. Becoming more sanctified is not becoming less saved, or less reliant on Jesus.

Much love!

The matter is what Apostle Paul taught in Romans 7 about the 'body of death', our fleshy members being assigned to the "law of sin".

So ANYONE... in the flesh (except Lord Jesus) who claims they don't sin anymore, even after having believed on Jesus Christ, make Him a liar, simply because ONLY God could be born in the flesh and be completely without sin. The rest of us literally have our flesh assigned to the "law of sin" while alive in the flesh, and it will stay that way until the day we die, or to the day Christ returns, whichever one comes first.

Thus those who deny that they still sin at times are claiming the very idea that Satan used on Eve, saying that she would become 'a god'. That is the VERY IDEA taught by occult secret societies that reject Christ Jesus. They teach self-perfection in the flesh, which is actually an ancient eastern religious doctrine.

For example; the religious ascetic, in self-isolation, by burning all sorts of sweet smelling incense, and creating as much of a mystic type atmosphere as possible, chanting mantras, meditating with focusing the conscious within oneself, etc., is actually trying to reach God on their own terms, and not coming to Him through His Son Jesus Christ. Those attempt to find God around His back door using the occult. (Do you think God is truly going to allow them to do that? No, He will not allow it). Some of those who attempt that think to repeat what the ancient pagans and Indians do, by using drugs to induce mystical states in attempt to reach God. Those want to have a 'direct experience' of God, without God's permission. That is actually not much different than consulting a Quija board instead of praying directly to The Father through His Son.

In 19th century Russia, there was a woman mystic named Helena Blavatsky; she was one of the founders of the movement called Theosophy. She claimed to be in contact with a 'hidden master' on the spirit plane, and she wrote two large volume sets of books she claimed her 'master' gave her of an ancient occult history using the method called automatic writing (she would go in a trance while holding a pen on paper, allowing the spirit to move her hand much like using a Quija board). How would one know what that 'spirit' gave her was true? I can guarantee you it wasn't. Some of it might have been true, just enough to fool someone, but the majority of it was probably made up by the 'familiar spirit' she had.

God allows the ignorant to be duped by things like that, simply because they refuse to listen to Him and The real Truth from Him.

Yet with God's servants He calls, God Himself touches them directly, on His Own terms, and when He decides, not when they decide. And even if He chooses one of His servants for a certain duty, they are not going to get out of fulfilling it (like Jonah).

 

[ScottA]

It could be talking about the perspective of the writer, naturally.

Sins that are previous to the cross.

You are proposing that it's a different point in time for everyone, determined by their coming to faith. Do you see Scriptures which clarify that's what God meant?

Much love!

Corinthians 15:23
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

So ANYONE... in the flesh (except Lord Jesus) who claims they don't sin anymore, even after having believed on Jesus Christ, make Him a liar

Anyone who says nonsense like this is sold out to the flesh and his own belly is his god. He serves and obeys his flesh. Why do people like you act like Paul wrote nothing after chapter 7 of his epistle to the Romans? Paul just got done forbidding that we sin in chapter 6! Then in chapter 8 he clearly shows that those who are in the Spirit are not subject to the things written in chapter 7!

Follow the teaching:

“What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin…? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?” (Romans 6:1-2)

“…when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.” (Romans 7:5)

“But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you...” (Romans 8:9)

“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.” (Galatians 5:16)

“He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.” (1 John 2:6)

“And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.” (Galatians 5:24)

Crucify the flesh @Davy

 

[ScottA]

Anyone who says nonsense like this is sold out to the flesh and his own belly is his god. He serves and obeys his flesh. Why do people like you act like Paul wrote nothing after chapter 7 of his epistle to the Romans? Paul just got done forbidding that we sin in chapter 6! Then in chapter 8 he clearly shows that those who are in the Spirit are not subject to the things written in chapter 7!

Follow the teaching:

“What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin…? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?” (Romans 6:1-2)

“…when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.” (Romans 7:5)

“But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you...” (Romans 8:9)

“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.” (Galatians 5:16)

“He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.” (1 John 2:6)

“And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.” (Galatians 5:24)

Crucify the flesh @Davy

Indeed. How one views these many passages, is a clear indication of whether or not they have actually come to the end of themselves...which is that point of death to self, marking "the end."

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The matter is what Apostle Paul taught in Romans 7 about the 'body of death', our fleshy members being assigned to the "law of sin".

So ANYONE... in the flesh (except Lord Jesus) who claims they don't sin anymore, even after having believed on Jesus Christ, make Him a liar, simply because ONLY God could be born in the flesh and be completely without sin. The rest of us literally have our flesh assigned to the "law of sin" while alive in the flesh, and it will stay that way until the day we die, or to the day Christ returns, whichever one comes first.

You are misinterpreting 1 John 1:8, my friend.

What is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at its immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 switches gears from 1 John 1:8 in regards to time; John talks about the declaration on committing sin in verse 8 (which is present tense) to a declaration on committing sin being a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Why? Well, most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned as a part of their old life before coming to Christ (Regardless of whether they are “OSAS,” a “Sin and still be saved” type believer, or a “Conditional Salvationist”). So this clearly is a “gnostic belief” that John was warning the brethren about (See 1 John 2:26). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin,
we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."
(1 John 1:8 NET).​

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their future sins are paid for by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their sin by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

John prescribes that we do not think that sin is an illusion, and we are automatically saved, but John is telling us to "sin not" and go to our advocate Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1), and confess our sins so as to be forgiven of sin and to be cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). How can you confess and be forgiven of sin if all your future sin is paid for? It makes no sense.

You can say that John is talking about a break of fellowship by one's sins and not a loss of salvation, but that would not be consistent with Scripture. 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life.

 

[ScottA]

Well, most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned as a part of their old life before coming to Christ (Regardless of whether they are “OSAS,” a “Sin and still be saved” type believer, or a “Conditional Salvationist”).

The Gnostics were wrong.

But it is also wrong to consider the sin of those who have come to the end, having endured until it is no longer they who live but Christ who lives in them (as the scriptures say) as continuing in sin. That just shows the one seeing it that way as not having reconciled all scripture.

The only way all these things are reconciled in accordance with every word, is by realizing that the end of the sinner is marked by the End which is Christ, the Beginning of righteousness. Which redefines where men ought to think time ends and eternity begins...which is also that point of being in Christ in God. But in order to do so requires the renewing of the mind to the timeless terms of God, rather than those of men and of the world. Which, of course, is the goal.

Of course, it is that renewing of the mind that takes time.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The matter is what Apostle Paul taught in Romans 7 about the 'body of death', our fleshy members being assigned to the "law of sin".

So ANYONE... in the flesh (except Lord Jesus) who claims they don't sin anymore, even after having believed on Jesus Christ, make Him a liar, simply because ONLY God could be born in the flesh and be completely without sin. The rest of us literally have our flesh assigned to the "law of sin" while alive in the flesh, and it will stay that way until the day we die, or to the day Christ returns, whichever one comes first.

In Defending the true meaning of Romans 7:

Peter says this about Paul's writings,
"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:16).

In Romans 7:1-6, Paul is telling Messianic Christians (i.e. those brethren who know Old Testament Law - Romans 7:1) that the Old Law is dead and that they should serve in newness of Spirit (i.e. the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed) and not in oldness of the letter (i.e. the Torah, etc.). This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. This lines up with the temple veil being torn from top to bottom when Christ died (Which started the New Covenant officially). The Old Testament Laws on animal sacrifices was no longer in effect anymore and Jesus Christ was now our passover Lamb or perfect sacrifice. Hence, why Romans 7:2 says, "if the husband [i.e. Jesus] be dead, she [i.e. the body of believers] is loosed from the law [i.e. the Old Law] of her husband."

In Romans 7:7-13, Paul is recounting Israelite history and speaking as a Jew throughout time with the coming in of the Law of Moses and what that was like.

In Romans 7:14-24, Paul is recounting his experience as a Pharisee before he became a Christian. Paul (Saul) is describing his experience of what it is like to struggle in keeping the Old Covenant Law that did not include Jesus Christ.

It is true that the use of first-person present verbs in the passage (“I am” “I practice” “I want” “I hate” “I do”) sounds like Paul is talking about his present experience. But Paul sometimes uses “I” in a rhetorical sense to describe generic experience rather than his own present experience (1 Corinthians 10:30; 1 Corinthians 13:2-3, 1 Corinthians 13:11). In at least one other place, Paul uses a first-person present verb to describe his opponents’ experience (Galatians 2:18).

Romans 7:25 is a verse that transitions back to the present day reality as Paul being a Christian. He is thankful that he now has victory in Jesus Christ His Lord who can deliver him from his body of death (Which was a problem before). Otherwise why is Paul thanking Jesus?

Paul asks the question in verse 24.

Who shall deliver me from this body of death?

I like how the Good News Translation answers this question. It says,

"Thanks be to God, who does this through our Lord Jesus Christ! This, then, is my condition: on my own I can serve God's law only with my mind, while my human nature serves the law of sin." (Romans 7:25 GNT).

The NTE says,

"...So then, left to my own self I am enslaved to God’s law with my mind, but to sin’s law with my human flesh." (Romans 7:25 NTE).

But Romans 13:14 says,
"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof."