Saying you are without sin verses in 1 John

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1stCenturyLady

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Was/is there a particular verse in Matthew 24 that causes you to see things differently?

Matthew 24:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be (about the temple not having one stone upon another which will happen in 70 AD? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

The rest of the chapter answers these two questions. The Spirit will help us discern what from what. For instance, the mentioning of the Sabbath is the destruction of the Jewish Temple in 70 AD. But the four horsemen of the end of the age starts out in order with those who say where Christ is. That is the first horse, - white - Antichrist coming disguised as good.
 

ScottA

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Matthew 24:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be (about the temple not having one stone upon another which will happen in 70 AD? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

The rest of the chapter answers these two questions. The Spirit will help us discern what from what. For instance, the mentioning of the Sabbath is the destruction of the Jewish Temple in 70 AD. But the four horsemen of the end of the age starts out in order with those who say where Christ is. That is the first horse, - white - Antichrist coming disguised as good.
That may not be specific enough. But the spirit of antichris was already at work.

As for the stones of the Temple, He was referring to the temple of his body, meaning we who are His.
 

Bible Highlighter

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A baby Christian will do an act of lack of self-control and our conscience doesn't hurt. But the same thing 10 years later cannot be done because our conscience is now aware through growth of the fruit of the Spirit and the warning prevents us.

Looking back at my life as a baby Christian, I remember sinning with no guilt but God was still speaking to me regularly as if I was still sinless. How could that be? I only thought about this recently, and wondered how I could sin with no checking of my conscience, and still feel no separation from God. None of the multitude of gifts He gave me stopped working. (He's given me all but two. But they are for separate offices, and are no use to me for the office of teaching.) When I asked Him about our lack of separation, He said "because it was unintentional." Now I understood perfectly. That new revelation to me was scriptural. "New revelation" is the Author's interpretation, and undoes false teaching and the doctrines of demons. It has nothing to do with foretelling, but is actually forth-telling. However, today prophets can also receive personal foretelling as Agabus did to Paul, but not new scripture for the profit of all like John did with the Book of Revelation.

The first time around when our heart does not condemn us, God wipes it clean as "unintentional" *with one condition. That is how God still sees babies as sinless. But 10 years later when it would be in full knowledge, God would hold us accountable if we kept disobeying our conscience when He's given us His Spirit to empower us to resist the devil, and eventually hearts could become seared as we quench the Spirit. This is why 1 John 5:18 tells us that those more mature keep themselves and do not willfully sin, and the devil cannot touch us. And the same text means that a baby Christian will live up to the knowledge they have; that living up to is keeping themselves and we can remain in a sinless state. Those unintentional sins we commit are trespasses, as per Leviticus 5:15, and *Matthew 6:14-15 tells us that as long as we forgive those brethren who trespass against us, our trespasses are then cleansed. The power of Jesus has made our New Covenant through the Spirit just about fool-proof. It is so easy to be saved in Jesus, there is no excuse for false teachers to claim we will always sin. Besides walking in the Spirit, all we actually need to do is always forgive. That is brotherly kindness, and is a fruit that needs to mature to become perfect and holy as our Lord Jesus commanded.

Another thing I learned this year as I prayed on the way home from church was about our conscience. It is our heart where God promised to write all His laws. But are all His laws written there and known day one when we are first born again, as I had first thought? God clarified that our heart/soul is born again of the Spirit, but on day one only the seeds of the fruit of the Spirit are planted, and still have to grow to maturity. Immature fruit causes those sins, but God prunes those branches to mature them and to produce bigger, healthier fruit, as long as we stay in the vine and abide in Jesus, there is no sin in Him. 1 John 3:6. And as for baby Christians who are children of God and abide in Jesus continually sins, but are pruned by the Master Gardener.

What this does not mean is that a born again Christian, even a baby one, has two natures. That is false. Once you have the Spirit of Christ indwelling you to live up to the knowledge you have, you are NOT IN THE FLESH, Romans 8:9, but in the New Covenant.

Our spirit is also born again and full of righteousness. We cannot rebel against God. Now I realize my sin when a baby Christian was an immature fruit of the Spirit. But it was not in rebellion against God. In other words, it was not a sin of lawlessness which were already crucified from day one.

So a person can smoke crack, and watch porn in ignorance and be saved?
If that is what you are suggesting, I disagree with you. Paul lists various sins in Galatians 5:19-21, and says that they which do such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Paul does not give a clause of exception. Paul does not say, except for those who do these sins in ignorance.
I believe there are the kinds of sins in life that are not as serious that God does talk to our heart about.
Secular worldly sinful movies was one of these things in my life that God wanted me to put away. A Christian must be sensitive to sin because it is proof that God is living in them. If a Christian treat obvious sins (like fornication, murder, theft, etcetera) as not a problem, they need to double check their heart with the Lord. I believe there will be a breaking point. Does God win out or does their sin?

As for God talking to a believer (as an indication that they are right with God):

Well, Scripture says God does not listen to sinners.

John 9:31 says, “Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.”

“If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:” (Psalms 66:18).

Now, you might say that this is any known sin to you.

But John 16:8-9 says:
“And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Of sin, because they believe not on me;”

In other words, the Spirit reproves us of sin.
 

Bible Highlighter

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A baby Christian will do an act of lack of self-control and our conscience doesn't hurt. But the same thing 10 years later cannot be done because our conscience is now aware through growth of the fruit of the Spirit and the warning prevents us.

Looking back at my life as a baby Christian, I remember sinning with no guilt but God was still speaking to me regularly as if I was still sinless. How could that be? I only thought about this recently, and wondered how I could sin with no checking of my conscience, and still feel no separation from God. None of the multitude of gifts He gave me stopped working. (He's given me all but two. But they are for separate offices, and are no use to me for the office of teaching.) When I asked Him about our lack of separation, He said "because it was unintentional." Now I understood perfectly. That new revelation to me was scriptural. "New revelation" is the Author's interpretation, and undoes false teaching and the doctrines of demons. It has nothing to do with foretelling, but is actually forth-telling. However, today prophets can also receive personal foretelling as Agabus did to Paul, but not new scripture for the profit of all like John did with the Book of Revelation.

The first time around when our heart does not condemn us, God wipes it clean as "unintentional" *with one condition. That is how God still sees babies as sinless. But 10 years later when it would be in full knowledge, God would hold us accountable if we kept disobeying our conscience when He's given us His Spirit to empower us to resist the devil, and eventually hearts could become seared as we quench the Spirit. This is why 1 John 5:18 tells us that those more mature keep themselves and do not willfully sin, and the devil cannot touch us. And the same text means that a baby Christian will live up to the knowledge they have; that living up to is keeping themselves and we can remain in a sinless state. Those unintentional sins we commit are trespasses, as per Leviticus 5:15, and *Matthew 6:14-15 tells us that as long as we forgive those brethren who trespass against us, our trespasses are then cleansed. The power of Jesus has made our New Covenant through the Spirit just about fool-proof. It is so easy to be saved in Jesus, there is no excuse for false teachers to claim we will always sin. Besides walking in the Spirit, all we actually need to do is always forgive. That is brotherly kindness, and is a fruit that needs to mature to become perfect and holy as our Lord Jesus commanded.

Another thing I learned this year as I prayed on the way home from church was about our conscience. It is our heart where God promised to write all His laws. But are all His laws written there and known day one when we are first born again, as I had first thought? God clarified that our heart/soul is born again of the Spirit, but on day one only the seeds of the fruit of the Spirit are planted, and still have to grow to maturity. Immature fruit causes those sins, but God prunes those branches to mature them and to produce bigger, healthier fruit, as long as we stay in the vine and abide in Jesus, there is no sin in Him. 1 John 3:6. And as for baby Christians who are children of God and abide in Jesus continually sins, but are pruned by the Master Gardener.

Our spirit is also born again and full of righteousness. We cannot rebel against God. Now I realize my sin when a baby Christian was an immature fruit of the Spirit. But it was not in rebellion against God. In other words, it was not a sin of lawlessness which were already crucified from day one.

What this does not mean is that a born again Christian, even a baby one, has two natures. That is a false doctrine of demons taught by the most popular of teachers, some with popular books for itching ears, and even on the radio and youtube and other areas of the internet. Just ask yourself if you are one of their disciples, does their messages justify your known sinful ways, or cause you to become actually holy, and not because of the doctrine that the blood of Jesus covers up your sin. They also are against sinless perfection, even though we are sinless from day one due to intention, and are on the path to perfection in this life, not after we die. Wow, Satan wants all Christians to wait until after they die, because he cares not that you believe in Jesus (even he knows that much), just as long as you don't abide in Him, and He in you so you won't keep willfully sinning. That is the biggest clue of their forked tongues of a serpent.

Once you have the Spirit of Christ indwelling you to live up to the knowledge you have, you are NOT IN THE FLESH, Romans 8:9, but in the New Covenant. Our intention is to always follow Jesus. Unfortunately, there are some Sunday Christians that go to church out of habit, cultivating friendships. The Spirit is still on the outside drawing them to Jesus, but until we actually repent and want to turn away from sin, Jesus can’t help us yet by dwelling inside killing the old man by crucifying it to His cross, and cleansing our sin nature completely by taking away our sin. They are not saved, but Jesus will say to them, I never knew you. Matthew 7:21-23.

I think the danger in thinking we can sin ignorance and be saved is that it will encourage a believer to not read the New Testament or the Bible. They can just continue to sin in ignorance and not know about various sins and be okay with God. But Scripture says God’s people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
 
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Heart2Soul

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Oh I think you do, we all do, not so?
Some hate his guts, some don't
J.
As I said before I don't know him. I quoted the list of sins he presented because of all the searches I did this one had the best detail.
It was my intention to reveal the many ways people sin and one of the most common sin in Christians is self-righteousness, hypocrisy and pride.
 
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Heart2Soul

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I noticed she neatly evaded your question by attacking Johnny Mac and you did not push her.
Interesting.
J.
Your observation seems to have a particular expectation of how others respond.
My answer was simple and direct. What would you have me to say in response?
Curious
 
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1stCenturyLady

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That may not be specific enough. But the spirit of antichris was already at work.

As for the stones of the Temple, He was referring to the temple of his body, meaning we who are His.

Look at that verse of John's in 1 John 2. He differentiates between The Antichrist, and the many spirits of antichrist, which are any teacher of false doctrines. And of course the crackpots like David Koresch who claimed to be the Messiah.

And as for the stones of the Temple being His body, He was speaking of both.
 

1stCenturyLady

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So a person can smoke crack, and watch porn in ignorance and be saved?
If that is what you are suggesting, I disagree with you. Paul lists various sins in Galatians 5:19-21, and says that they which do such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Paul does not give a clause of exception. Paul does not say, except for those who do these sins in ignorance.

That is exactly what I am saying, though until recently, I felt the same as you. But don't worry, God does not leave us in darkness about those things for long, unless these things are done willfully. In fact, when a baby Christian discovers he has no power over his addiction to whatever, those are the most dramatic life changing experiences when they become born again. But the percentage of pastors that watch pornography is very high. They certainly know better and could come to the throne of grace for power of the Spirit over those desires long ago, if they actually wanted to please God. I'm talking about those who love God with all their heart. That is who the Spirit works on. Those are the ones who do live up to the knowledge they have. Phil. 3:16.

You would have had to miss what I said about a babies intent towards God if you came away with this post. Why does the Spirit have to finish what He started, if He makes us perfect from day one?

And Paul was chosen as an apostle because his zealous sins were done in ignorance, but Jesus saw His heart and reasoning.

1 Timothy 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry, 13 although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. 16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life. 17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to e]">[e]God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
 
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1stCenturyLady

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I think the danger in thinking we can sin ignorance and be saved is that it will encourage a believer to not read the New Testament or the Bible. They can just continue to sin in ignorance and not know about various sins and be okay with God. But Scripture says God’s people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.

Please read my last post #1108
 

Heart2Soul

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Scripture says anything not of faith is sin. We don't need a list as in the Old Covenant. The New Covenant doesn't work the same as the Old Covenant worked where they had to memorize a list of sins and laws. God looks works through our conscience, and He says, 1 John 3:21 "Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God.

Philippians 3:16 also shows us as baby Christians to live up the to light you have. What the Holy Spirit has started He will finish. What was not a sin on day 2 of becoming born again, may check your conscience 10 years later, and then it is a sin to you. We obey the Spirit, not the letter. What is important is not the Law, but growing in the fruit of the Spirit. We are already dead to sins of lawlessness on day one, which is why we don't have to be under the law anymore to not sin.
I agree that spiritual growth supercedes physical growth and mental growth....knowing the law is knowledgeable...being set free from the law is victory through Jesus.
The lessons learned through spiritual growth come by our choices and mistakes we make as we grow. Also, the Holy Spirit let's us know when we have erred and sinned when we didn't realize we had.
 
J

Johann

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As I said before I don't know him. I quoted the list of sins he presented because of all the searches I did this one had the best detail.
It was my intention to reveal the many ways people sin and one of the most common sin in Christians is self-righteousness, hypocrisy and pride.
yet on this forum, this particular topic, sinless perfection already attainable in this life, would you say that is correct?
 

stunnedbygrace

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Being "born again" puts us in Christ.

I find this confusing….
I think being born again puts Gods Spirit in us, not us in Him.
Abide in Me and I in you are two different things, I think.
Even when we are untrusting (stop abiding/remaining in trust), He still remains (abides in us.) Because He is faithful even if or when we are not.

I see abide as: remain trusting, continue to trust. And if I, for instance, start worrying about money or provision, I see that as unfaithfulness/not remaining in trust.

Israel worried about provision in the desert, and God let them become very thirsty to see what they would do. Complain or abide (remain) in trust?

This means that even when we cannot sense Him and become very thirsty, and it feels like He has abandoned us, He is doing so to grow and prove our trust.
 
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Episkopos

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I find this confusing….
I think being born again puts Gods Spirit in us, not us in Him.
Abide in Me and I in you are two different things, I think.
Even when we are untrusting (stop abiding/remaining in trust), He still remains (abides in us.) Because He is faithful even if or when we are not.

I see abide as: remain trusting, continue to trust. And if I, for instance, start worrying about money or provision, I see that as unfaithfulness/not remaining in trust.

Israel worried about provision in the desert, and God let them become very thirsty to see what they would do. Complain or abide (remain) in trust?


You are right. Being born again puts Christ in us...but I was comparing being in Christ and abiding in Christ. We are covered by Christ corporately when we are in His Body. I could have said "in Christ's Body"...but I was using Jesus' terminology in John 15.

We can also be spit out of His Body...as per Jesus' warning to the Laodiceans.. So then we can't be spit out unless we are in Him in some way. This is a corporate membership in the Body.


Of course this is not the same as abiding IN Christ...on a personal level. :)

For more explanation I'm putting this link...
The Household of Faith
 
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stunnedbygrace

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You are right. Being born again puts Christ in us...but I was comparing being in Christ and abiding in Christ. We are covered by Christ corporately when we are in His Body. I could have said "in Christ's Body"...but I was using Jesus' terminology in John 15.

We can also be spit out of His Body...as per Jesus' warning to the Laodiceans.. So then we can't be spit out unless we are in Him in some way. This is a corporate membership in the Body.


Of course this is not the same as abiding IN Christ...on a personal level. :)

And what does “abide in Him” mean to you?
 

Episkopos

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And what does “abide in Him” mean to you?


Being where He is in Zion. Seeing what He sees, doing what He does, loving as He loves, walking as He walked...no longer I but Christ. Walking in the light is a supernatural walk in a spiritual and eternal resurrection life...we have this treasure in earthen vessels. Being covered PERSONALLY by the righteousness of God.

BYW hiya! :)
 
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ScottA

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Look at that verse of John's in 1 John 2. He differentiates between The Antichrist, and the many spirits of antichrist, which are any teacher of false doctrines. And of course the crackpots like David Koresch who claimed to be the Messiah.

And as for the stones of the Temple being His body, He was speaking of both.
Yes...but then he also says "it is the last hour." What does that mean for your idea of the timing?
 

stunnedbygrace

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Being where He is in Zion. Seeing what He sees, doing what He does, loving as He loves, walking as He walked...no longer I but Christ. Walking in the light is a supernatural walk in a spiritual and eternal resurrection life...we have this treasure in earthen vessels. Being covered PERSONALLY by the righteousness of God.

BYW hiya! :)

And how does one get there? It has to be through remaining in trust, doesn’t it?
Israel couldn’t enter into what God had prepared for them because they didn’t remain in trust but instead worried and complained. So I expect we also can’t enter into what He has prepared for us for the same exact reason.

It’s a race of trust we are in. We stumble a lot, but hopefully we go longer and longer periods of time without stumbling in trust as we go along.
 
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Episkopos

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And how does one get there? It has to be through remaining in trust, doesn’t it?
Israel couldn’t enter into what God had prepared for them because they didn’t remain in trust but instead worried and complained. So I expect we also can’t enter into what He has prepared for us for the same exact reason.


Election by God is by....election. :) There is no way to enter INTO Christ in a personal way unless the Father gets involved. It is at His discretion. We are TRANSLATED into Zion by the Lord....taken up to abide in Christ where He is. Totally miraculous. Our way in is to surrender and entreat the Lord until He accepts us into the Beloved.

Even being born again is by the will of the Father.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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Election by God is by....election. :) There is no way to enter INTO Christ in a personal way unless the Father gets involved. It is at His discretion. We are TRANSLATED into Zion by the Lord....taken up to abide in Christ where He is. Totally miraculous. Our way in is to surrender and entreat the Lord until He accepts us into the Beloved.

Even being born again is by the will of the Father.

Yes, it’s up to God.
So…you think “abide in Me” is by election? That God chooses who He will allow to abide in Him? Except abide means to remain. So when He says remain in Me, it means…oh never mind, I’m too confused.
I’ll have to keep thinking abide in Me means: remain in trust in Me, keep trusting Me. Otherwise, the verse would have nothing to do with me and would have no encouragement for me.
 
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