Scripture interpretation ?

[BibleFeast]

who or what decides scripture interpretation - should we not take Jesus at His word in the literal sense that He did actually mean that anyone who is not a Christian must be born again as a Christian - any comments - twinc

http://joinbiblefeast.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/one-church-my-prayer.html?m=1

Check out this link on interpretation from a general perspective.
Taking Jesus at His word is good if one knows what He means when He says things like: And if your right hand makes you sin, cut it off and throw it away! Better that you should lose one part of you than have your whole body thrown into hell. You see, correct interpretation in essential for translating such texts

 

[veteran]

williemac mentioned the incorruptible seed, which according to Peter in 1 Peter 1:23, is the word of God which lives and abides for ever.

That's important, because throughout scripture, 'the word' can be referred to as water, as in Ephesians 5:26 and John 15:3.

I don't believe that when Jesus referred to being born of water and Spirit, He was allocating one (water) to the first, natural birth and the other (Spirit) to the birth from above; I believe He was stating that to be 'born again' (born from above), one has to be born of the word and the Holy Spirit.

Lastly, we have to remember that the final stage of being 'begotten again', is the receiving of our resurrection bodies. That is why - when you read the emphasis which the NT writers place upon hope - it is necessary to endure to the end, as only those who do, will be raised incorruptible.

Acts 13:2 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. 35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: 37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

What I think you're missing brother is that being born of The Spirit covers, or includes... the concept of water baptism.

Being born of water is about the fact that Christ's Salvation is offerred ONLY to those born in the flesh. Nicodemus rightly understood our Lord Jesus about that being born of water pointing to flesh birth, for our Lord Jesus didn't correct him on that point. What He showed Nicodemus further was about being born of The Spirit.

 

[daq]

What I think you're missing brother is that being born of The Spirit covers, or includes... the concept of water baptism.

Being born of water is about the fact that Christ's Salvation is offerred ONLY to those born in the flesh. Nicodemus rightly understood our Lord Jesus about that being born of water pointing to flesh birth, for our Lord Jesus didn't correct him on that point. What He showed Nicodemus further was about being born of The Spirit.

Perhaps you missed the full implications of the following:

Matthew 3:12 KJV
10. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12. Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

If you desire to adhere to what is written then it is necessary for you now to go and find the words of Yochanan the Immerser, (the greatest of all the prophets until Messiah) and be baptized also into that water immersion of the Word. And of course that one comes first, for the Master clearly states the Yochanan the Immerser is Eliyahu, (if you will receive it). And without the first immersion of water the second will not occur.

 

[veteran]

Perhaps you missed the full implications of the following:

Matthew 3:12 KJV
10. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12. Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

If you desire to adhere to what is written then it is necessary for you now to go and find the words of Yochanan the Immerser, (the greatest of all the prophets until Messiah) and be baptized also into that water immersion of the Word. And of course that one comes first, for the Master clearly states the Yochanan the Immerser is Eliyahu, (if you will receive it). And without the first immersion of water the second will not occur.

John 3:4-6
4 Nicodemus saith unto Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"
5 Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
(KJV)


You're only mixing men's doctrines in with what The Scriptures is teaching.

Nicodemus correctly understood being born of water meant being born in the water of woman's womb. That's why he asked Jesus how can a man be born in his mother's womb a second time. What Nicodemus didn't understand... was what our Lord Jesus meant by being born from above ("again" means 'above' per the Greek) of The SPIRIT.

The operation of being born from above per the flesh was covered back in the Old Testament Scripture, like Eccl.12:5-7 concerning flesh death. When the "silver cord" is severred, our flesh goes back to the earth where it came from, and our 'spirit' goes back to God Who gave it. Thus, EVERYONE born in the flesh has their 'spirit' born from above from God's Spirit. This a requirement for Christ's Salvation is that one is born in the flesh too.

John 3:6-8
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
(KJV)

The idea of being born of The Spirit is what happens at our water baptism now.

PRIOR to Christ's death on the cross, believers who looked for Jesus' coming then only had the water baptism of repentance from John. When Paul met some believers that had done the water baptism of John, but had not heard of Christ's death and resurrection yet, they only had need to hear of Christ raised and believe and were baptized in Christ Jesus' Name, and then Paul laid his hands on them and The Holy Spirit came upon them (Acts 19).

Even in Acts 18 with the one who preached The Gospel and Aquilla and Priscilla heard, he only knew the baptism of John. Notice he was not baptized of water again, but was then taught Christ raised by Aquilla and Priscilla.

In Acts 10, when Peter preached The Gospel to the Gentiles there, The Holy Spirit came upon them without... water baptism. Then Peter commanded them to be baptized of water in Christ's Name.

Thus there are cases of those born of The Spirit WITHOUT water baptism. I'm not saying water baptism is not important or not needed. I believe it is. But it's not what the born of water idea in John 3 is really about.

 

[daq]

John 3:4-6
4 Nicodemus saith unto Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"
5 Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
(KJV)


You're only mixing men's doctrines in with what The Scriptures is teaching.

Nicodemus correctly understood being born of water meant being born in the water of woman's womb. That's why he asked Jesus how can a man be born in his mother's womb a second time. What Nicodemus didn't understand... was what our Lord Jesus meant by being born from above ("again" means 'above' per the Greek) of The SPIRIT.

The operation of being born from above per the flesh was covered back in the Old Testament Scripture, like Eccl.12:5-7 concerning flesh death. When the "silver cord" is severred, our flesh goes back to the earth where it came from, and our 'spirit' goes back to God Who gave it. Thus, EVERYONE born in the flesh has their 'spirit' born from above from God's Spirit. This a requirement for Christ's Salvation is that one is born in the flesh too.

John 3:6-8
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
(KJV)

The idea of being born of The Spirit is what happens at our water baptism now.

PRIOR to Christ's death on the cross, believers who looked for Jesus' coming then only had the water baptism of repentance from John. When Paul met some believers that had done the water baptism of John, but had not heard of Christ's death and resurrection yet, they only had need to hear of Christ raised and believe and were baptized in Christ Jesus' Name, and then Paul laid his hands on them and The Holy Spirit came upon them (Acts 19).

Even in Acts 18 with the one who preached The Gospel and Aquilla and Priscilla heard, he only knew the baptism of John. Notice he was not baptized of water again, but was then taught Christ raised by Aquilla and Priscilla.

In Acts 10, when Peter preached The Gospel to the Gentiles there, The Holy Spirit came upon them without... water baptism. Then Peter commanded them to be baptized of water in Christ's Name.

Thus there are cases of those born of The Spirit WITHOUT water baptism. I'm not saying water baptism is not important or not needed. I believe it is. But it's not what the born of water idea in John 3 is really about.

Does the whole of Acts 10 need to be posted just because one simply refuses to believe what is written therein?

Acts 10:1-37 KJV
1. There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2. A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3. He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4. And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
5. And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
6. He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.
7. And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually;
8. And when he had declared all these things unto them, he sent them to Joppa.
9. On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
10. And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11. And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12. Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13. And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14. But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15. And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
16. This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
17. Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made inquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,
18. And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there.
19. While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.
20. Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.
21. Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?
22. And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.
23. Then called he them in, and lodged them. And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him.
24. And the morrow after they entered into Caesarea. And Cornelius waited for them, and had called together his kinsmen and near friends.
25. And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
26. But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.
27. And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together.
28. And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
29. Therefore came I unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me?
30. And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing,
31. And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God.
32. Send therefore to Joppa, and call hither Simon, whose surname is Peter; he is lodged in the house of one Simon a tanner by the sea side: who, when he cometh, shall speak unto thee.
33. Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.
34. Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35. But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36. The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all
37. That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

Cornelius and all his house had joined himself to the nation of the Jews and their religion even though he and his house were indeed Gentile. Yet Cornelius ALREADY KNEW of the Immersion of Yochanan and all things which had occurred with the Ministry and Crucifixion of Yeshua. Then after a great while and ANGEL-MESSENGER-MAN appeared to Cornelius to inform him that his prayers and alms had come up before the Most High. Yet for Cornelius the "Gentile" with all his house to be immersed with the Holy Spirit he was first commanded to send for Simon Peter, (a Jew).

As for the womb of my mother; my mother is Jerusalem of Above according to the Scripture, (Galatians 4:26). Therefore has God called me from my mother's womb and from an infant have I known the Holy Scriptures. We walk according to the Spirit of the Word.

 

[ScottAU]

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

This is what I see...

Verse 3 - Born Again - ie. born another time.
Verse 4 - Nicodemus asks how can one be born a SECOND time (ie, two births in his mind).
Verse 5 - Jesus answers speaking of TWO births, one of water and one of Spirit.
Verse 6 - Jesus then speaks of these TWO births as one being of the FLESH whilst the other being of the SPIRIT.
Verse 7 - Jesus then repeats one must be born another time.

If "born of water" is a reference to water baptism then there are THREE births being spoken of in the exchange,

It seems pretty clear to me that only TWO births are being spoken of, one which is referring to natural childbirth whilst the other is a reference to spiritual rebirth.



Water baptism is an outward action whereby a new believer has the opportunity to immediately ACT UPON THEIR FAITH thus giving an outward expression of the internal change that has taken place.

There is nothing magical about being splashed with water. It is a commandment but in and of itself it saves no-one. The STATE OF MIND and STATE OF THE HEART behind it is what is key.

Thus baptism is a WORK of FAITH.

 

[veteran]

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

This is what I see...

Verse 3 - Born Again - ie. born another time.
Verse 4 - Nicodemus asks how can one be born a SECOND time (ie, two births in his mind).
Verse 5 - Jesus answers speaking of TWO births, one of water and one of Spirit.
Verse 6 - Jesus then speaks of these TWO births as one being of the FLESH whilst the other being of the SPIRIT.
Verse 7 - Jesus then repeats one must be born another time.

If "born of water" is a reference to water baptism then there are THREE births being spoken of in the exchange,

It seems pretty clear to me that only TWO births are being spoken of, one which is referring to natural childbirth whilst the other is a reference to spiritual rebirth.



Water baptism is an outward action whereby a new believer has the opportunity to immediately ACT UPON THEIR FAITH thus giving an outward expression of the internal change that has taken place.

There is nothing magical about being splashed with water. It is a commandment but in and of itself it saves no-one. The STATE OF MIND and STATE OF THE HEART behind it is what is key.

Thus baptism is a WORK of FAITH.

That's an excellent presentation, short and simple.

The use of water to symbolize spiritual purification goes back even into the Old Testament Scriptures.

 

[daq]

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

This is what I see...

Verse 3 - Born Again - ie. born another time.
Verse 4 - Nicodemus asks how can one be born a SECOND time (ie, two births in his mind).
Verse 5 - Jesus answers speaking of TWO births, one of water and one of Spirit.
Verse 6 - Jesus then speaks of these TWO births as one being of the FLESH whilst the other being of the SPIRIT.
Verse 7 - Jesus then repeats one must be born another time.

If "born of water" is a reference to water baptism then there are THREE births being spoken of in the exchange,

It seems pretty clear to me that only TWO births are being spoken of, one which is referring to natural childbirth whilst the other is a reference to spiritual rebirth.

That's an excellent presentation, short and simple.

The use of water to symbolize spiritual purification goes back even into the Old Testament Scriptures.

An "excellent presentation" only for those willing to cause contradiction in the Scripture so as to uphold to their doctrine.

John 6:62-64 KJV
62. What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63. It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

If "the flesh profits nothing" then why is it necessary to be born of the flesh? And if I have already been born of the flesh, (as we all have been because we are here) then why do I need to be told that I need to be born of the flesh? Therefore "the flesh" that Yeshua speaks of in this case cannot be "physical child birth" because the words that he speaks are Spirit and they are Life. To be born of the first Covenant is "of the flesh" (Jerusalem of Below) and to be born of the New Covenant is "of the Spirit" (Jerusalem of Above). The one who completely rejects the first, ("abolishing" it in his mind) will never see the second.

 

[veteran]

An "excellent presentation" only for those willing to cause contradiction in the Scripture so as to uphold to their doctrine.

John 6:62-64 KJV
62. What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63. It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

If "the flesh profits nothing" then why is it necessary to be born of the flesh? And if I have already been born of the flesh, (as we all have been because we are here) then why do I need to be told that I need to be born of the flesh? Therefore "the flesh" that Yeshua speaks of in this case cannot be "physical child birth" because the words that he speaks are Spirit and they are Life. To be born of the first Covenant is "of the flesh" (Jerusalem of Below) and to be born of the New Covenant is "of the Spirit" (Jerusalem of Above). The one who completely rejects the first, ("abolishing" it in his mind) will never see the second.

You quote a Bible passage, but then begin speaking Greek philosophy, even off the main topic of this thread, so what gives? Are you trying to counter just so you can try to be right? Is that all God's Truth means to you?

I'll make it easy for you...

Where in God's Word is it written that anyone else other than those born in the flesh are offered Salvation through Jesus' Blood shed on the cross???

 

[daq]

You quote a Bible passage, but then begin speaking Greek philosophy, even off the main topic of this thread, so what gives? Are you trying to counter just so you can try to be right? Is that all God's Truth means to you?

I spoke to you from the Word, (whether you consider it Greek Philosophy or not) and this is the main topic:

who or what decides scripture interpretation - should we not take Jesus at His word in the literal sense that He did actually mean that anyone who is not a Christian must be born again as a Christian - any comments - twinc

I'll make it easy for you...

Where in God's Word is it written that anyone else other than those born in the flesh are offered Salvation through Jesus' Blood shed on the cross???

The Scripture makes it much easier than you do: :lol:

John 1:3-13 KJV
3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[veteran]

I spoke to you from the Word, (whether you consider it Greek Philosophy or not) and this is the main topic:




The Scripture makes it much easier than you do: :lol:

John 1:3-13 KJV
3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

That's what I thought, you CANNOT answer my question.

 

[daq]

That's what I thought, you CANNOT answer my question.

To suggest the John 3 passage is teaching that one must be physically born of the flesh into the world as an infant before he or she can enter into the Kingdom of God is not only insulting to the Master-Teacher-Word but likewise it is nothing more than a desperate attempt to avoid the reality of the ongoing immersions of the washing of the water into the Word which are necessarily the first baptism. In addition the question surrounding these things has been answered but you count the Scripture as Greek Philosophy. What can I say? Read what is already posted here from the Scripture; you must first be birthed out of the Old before you will be birthed into the New:

Matthew 13:51-52
51. Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.
52. Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is discipled unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his thesauros-treasury things new and things old.

But if you will not enter into the Old then how will you ever be brought out from it by the Doctor in the End?

 

[veteran]

Like I said, where in God's Word is His Salvation through His Son offerred to anyone not born in the flesh???

You won't answer that with a simple 'nowhere' because you cannot bring yourself to admit it, and my goodness it might show how yor are wrong! Can't have that now can we?

 

[daq]

Like I said, where in God's Word is His Salvation through His Son offerred to anyone not born in the flesh???

You won't answer that with a simple 'nowhere' because you cannot bring yourself to admit it, and my goodness it might show how yor are wrong! Can't have that now can we?

Where did I suggest that salvation is offered to anyone else but every human being? Why should such a question as yours even be considered? We are all here able to write and speak to each other because every one of us was once upon a time born of the flesh into this world. The answer to such a ridiculous question would prove nothing. What you are suggesting by asking such a thing is that the same was what Yeshua meant in his discourse to Nicodemus by default because there is nowhere that your ridiculous question is denied in the Scripture. However, the same thinking would be tantamount to me telling you right now that you need to be "born of the flesh into this world" before you can possibly enter into the Kingdom of God. Yet we both know that if indeed I suggested such a thing to you right here and now you would probably think to yourself that perhaps I needed to be medicated. You are making false "requirements" to avoid the real requirements spoken of in the passage; after all, if one of the two requirements is simply having been physically born then there is nothing for you to fulfill because you have already done so just by that fact that you were born into this world. Rather than argue against others for your pet doctrines you should try arguing for the Truth and let every man be a liar if that is were the Truth takes you.

John 3:3-13 YLT (Young's Literal Bible Translation)
3. Jesus answered and said to him, 'Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;'
4. Nicodemus saith unto him, 'How is a man able to be born, being old? is he able into the womb of his mother a second time to enter, and to be born?'
5. Jesus answered, 'Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;
6. that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. 'Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
8. the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.'
9. Nicodemus answered and said to him, 'How are these things able to happen?'
10. Jesus answered and said to him, 'Thou art the teacher of Israel - and these things thou dost not know!
11. 'Verily, verily, I say to thee - What we have known we speak, and what we have seen we testify, and our testimony ye do not receive;
12. if the earthly things I said to you, and ye do not believe, how, if I shall say to you the heavenly things, will ye believe?
13. and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down - the Son of Man who is in the heaven.

How is it that you may or may not be born of water?
Yet you suggest it means natural child birth and therefore have no choice in the matter.

John 3:3-13 KJV
3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10. Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11. Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13. And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

And how is it that the Son of man was IN HEAVEN at this time even BEFORE going to the Cross?

Matthew 3:16-17 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented)
16. Baptistheis de ho Iesous euthus anebe apo tou hudatos, kai idou, eneochthesan auto hoi ouranoi, kai eiden to Pneuma tou Theou katabainon hosei peristeran kai erchomenon epauton.
17. Kai idou, fone ek ton ouranon legousa, "Houtos estin ho Huios mou ho agapetos, en ho eudokesa!"

Matthew 3:16-17
16. And being immersed Yeshua straightway ascended from the water: and behold, was opened of him the heavens, and he saw the Pneuma tou Theou descending as a dove and coming upon him:
17. And, behold, a voice from the heaven saying: "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased!"

Are you really so sure you truly know what it means to be in Olam Haba?

 

[veteran]

So what, now must you be reminded of your previous tirades of nowhere speech???

daq said:
"If "the flesh profits nothing" then why is it necessary to be born of the flesh? And if I have already been born of the flesh, (as we all have been because we are here) then why do I need to be told that I need to be born of the flesh? Therefore "the flesh" that Yeshua speaks of in this case cannot be "physical child birth" because the words that he speaks are Spirit and they are Life. To be born of the first Covenant is "of the flesh" (Jerusalem of Below) and to be born of the New Covenant is "of the Spirit" (Jerusalem of Above). The one who completely rejects the first, ("abolishing" it in his mind) will never see the second."

Must you be reminded of your disbelief that Jesus was talking about being born in the flesh with the idea of being born of 'water' in John 3?

You're so soaked up with men's traditions on that issue it's becoming obvious you don't really know... where you stand.

 

[daq]

So what, now must you be reminded of your previous tirades of nowhere speech???

daq said:
"If "the flesh profits nothing" then why is it necessary to be born of the flesh? And if I have already been born of the flesh, (as we all have been because we are here) then why do I need to be told that I need to be born of the flesh? Therefore "the flesh" that Yeshua speaks of in this case cannot be "physical child birth" because the words that he speaks are Spirit and they are Life. To be born of the first Covenant is "of the flesh" (Jerusalem of Below) and to be born of the New Covenant is "of the Spirit" (Jerusalem of Above). The one who completely rejects the first, ("abolishing" it in his mind) will never see the second."

Must you be reminded of your disbelief that Jesus was talking about being born in the flesh with the idea of being born of 'water' in John 3?

You're so soaked up with men's traditions on that issue it's becoming obvious you don't really know... where you stand.

My stance has not changed: Yeshua was not speaking of being physically born of water from your mother's womb. To say to a person already having been physically born that he or she needs to be physically born is buffoonery. Go into the highways and byways proclaiming your Gospel to every passerby how that "unless he is physically born of water, from his mother's womb, he cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven!" and see what your responses might be. Talk about Universalism; every human being having been born of a woman is automatically enrolled into your kingdom with a "Yea!" (and on his way) but who will be the elect? Sounds more like the Kingdom of Leaven from where I stand. :lol:

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

"Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures" (Luke 24:45)

 

[veteran]

My stance has not changed: Yeshua was not speaking of being physically born of water from your mother's womb. To say to a person already having been physically born that he or she needs to be physically born is buffoonery. Go into the highways and byways proclaiming your Gospel to every passerby how that "unless he is physically born of water, from his mother's womb, he cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven!" and see what your responses might be. Talk about Universalism; every human being having been born of a woman is automatically enrolled into your kingdom with a "Yea!" (and on his way) but who will be the elect? Sounds more like the Kingdom of Leaven from where I stand. :lol:

What a bunch of stupidity those statements are. I never said any of that junk.

Nicodemus couldn't understand how someone could be born in the flesh again a second time, and RIGHTLY SO. It's because Jesus was talking about being born of The Spirit... and of water (woman's womb).

Someone born in the flesh is ONLY born in the flesh ONE TIME, or didn't you know that???

John 3:3-6
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

You see that word "again" there in the above verse knuckle-head??? That's the Greek word that means 'from above'.


4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?


Do you see that word "again" another time in the BELOW verse knuckle-head?


5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
(KJV)

Jesus did NOT say "born again of water", He said "born of water", you knuckle-head!

 

[daq]

What a bunch of stupidity those statements are. I never said any of that junk.

Nicodemus couldn't understand how someone could be born in the flesh again a second time, and RIGHTLY SO. It's because Jesus was talking about being born of The Spirit... and of water (woman's womb).

Someone born in the flesh is ONLY born in the flesh ONE TIME, or didn't you know that???

John 3:3-6
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

You see that word "again" there in the above verse knuckle-head??? That's the Greek word that means 'from above'.


4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?


Do you see that word "again" another time in the BELOW verse knuckle-head?


5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
(KJV)

Jesus did NOT say "born again of water", He said "born of water", you knuckle-head!

Being born of water is about the fact that Christ's Salvation is offerred ONLY to those born in the flesh. Nicodemus rightly understood our Lord Jesus about that being born of water pointing to flesh birth, for our Lord Jesus didn't correct him on that point. What He showed Nicodemus further was about being born of The Spirit.

If you cannot even remember what you have already stated on this very same page then what is the use trying to reason with you?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[veteran]

If you cannot even remember what you have already stated on this very same page then what is the use trying to reason with you?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Nah, you can't back out now with that attempt to change your story.

That point I spoke about Nicodemus was in relation to his confusion about the John 3:3 verse, NOT the latter John 3:5-6 verses.

In John 3:3 with "born again", Jesus was speaking of being born of The Spirit, NOT water. There's NO mention of water anywhere in that verse.

However, Nicodemus thought He was talking about being born again through woman's womb a second time. Jesus mentions water later in John 3:5 with comparison of the flesh vs. spirit, knucklehead.

And what requirement did Jesus make about WATER there???


John 3:5-6
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
(KJV)


Does that 5th verse say, "... Except a man be born AGAIN of water and of the Spirit", or does it say, "... Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit"? It's the latter knucklehead, no 'born again' idea in that verse!!!

And that's the condition, one must be born of woman's womb AND of The Spirit to enter into the Kingdom of God.

The 'born again' in woman's womb is YOURS and Nicodemus' stupid idea.