Scripture interpretation ?

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dragonfly

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williemac mentioned the incorruptible seed, which according to Peter in 1 Peter 1:23, is the word of God which lives and abides for ever.

That's important, because throughout scripture, 'the word' can be referred to as water, as in Ephesians 5:26 and John 15:3.

I don't believe that when Jesus referred to being born of water and Spirit, He was allocating one (water) to the first, natural birth and the other (Spirit) to the birth from above; I believe He was stating that to be 'born again' (born from above), one has to be born of the word and the Holy Spirit.

Lastly, we have to remember that the final stage of being 'begotten again', is the receiving of our resurrection bodies. That is why - when you read the emphasis which the NT writers place upon hope - it is necessary to endure to the end, as only those who do, will be raised incorruptible.

Acts 13:2 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. 35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: 37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
 
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Arnie Manitoba

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twinc said:
since the error is made right at the start,then all we have, as we see here, is error added to error and confusion to confusion ad infinitum and ad absurdum - we must return to the encounter between Jesus and Nicodemus who imho was no mutt as most would have us believe - we are the mutts,we fail to see what the born again must see and accept and this is impossible for any who do not,really, know their Christianity and Christ viz soaked in it from birth - this is what Christ was saying to Nicodemus and goes completely unnoticed as if irrelevant - imho - twinc
you come across as the confused one twinc

it is very clear in all your posts

i am not able to help you , neither is the Lord , your issue resides under the skin of a twit called twinc

good luck dealing with that
 

dragonfly

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Arnie Manitoba said:
you come across as the confused one twinc

it is very clear in all your posts

i am not able to help you , neither is the Lord , your issue resides under the skin of a twit called twinc

good luck dealing with that
What do you mean, Arnie? 'The Lord is not able to help you'??? Of course, He is!!! He is the Light before Whom all darkness must flee, or bow, if you prefer.

twinc, no-one comes out of their mother's womb, already a Christian. A Christian's inner life has God as its source, not the life of 'the spirit that now works in the cbildren of disobedience'. Ephesians 2:2.
 

daq

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dragonfly said:
williemac mentioned the incorruptible seed, which according to Peter in 1 Peter 1:23, is the word of God which lives and abides for ever.

That's important, because throughout scripture, 'the word' can be referred to as water, as in Ephesians 5:26 and John 15:3.

I don't believe that when Jesus referred to being born of water and Spirit, He was allocating one (water) to the first, natural birth and the other (Spirit) to the birth from above; I believe He was stating that to be 'born again' (born from above), one has to be born of the word and the Holy Spirit.
emoticon-thumbs-up.gif


Messiah gave himself to sanctify the congregation; it is cleansed by the washing of the Water EN-INTO the Word. :)
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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daq said:
emoticon-thumbs-up.gif


Messiah gave himself to sanctify the congregation; it is cleansed by the washing of the Water EN-INTO the Word. :)
EN means in, EIS means into. Ephesians 5:26 literally says:

that he should be making her holy, cleansing it by the bath of the water in word.
 

daq

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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
EN means in, EIS means into. Ephesians 5:26 literally says:

that he should be making her holy, cleansing it by the bath of the water in word.
Good, perhaps then you might understand the following points:

Acts 8:15-16 KJV
15. Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16. (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in [GSN#1519 eis] the name of the Lord Jesus.)


Acts 8:16 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented Bible)
16. oudepo gar en ep oudeni autonepipeptokos, monon de bebaptismenoi huperchon eis to onoma tou Kuriou Iesou.

Original Strong's Ref. #1519
Romanized eis
Pronounced ice
a primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases:
KJV--[abundant-]ly, against, among, as, at, [back-]ward, before, by, concerning, + continual, + far more exceeding, for [intent, purpose], fore, + forth, in (among, at, unto, -so much that, -to), to the intent that, + of one mind, + never, of, (up-)on, + perish, + set at one again, (so) that, therefore(-unto), throughout, til, to (be, the end, -ward), (here-)until(-to), ...ward, [where-]fore, with. Often used in composition with the same general import, but only with verbs (etc.) expressing motion (literally or figuratively).


Ephesians 5:25-26 KJV
25. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26. That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by [GSN#1722 en] the word,


Ephesians 5:26 TUA
26. hina auten hagiase katharisas toloutro tou hudatos en remati,

Original Strong's Ref. #3067
Romanized loutron
Pronounced loo-tron'
from GSN3068; a bath, i.e. (figuratively), immersion, baptism:
KJV--washing.


Original Strong's Ref. #1722
Romanized en
Pronounced en
a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between GSN1519 and GSN1537); "in," at, (up-)on, by, etc.:

KJV--about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-)by (+ all means), for (...sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-)in(-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-)on, [open-]ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, [speedi-]ly, X that, X there(-in, -on), through(-out), (un-)to(-ward), under, when, where(-with), while, with(-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) preposition.

GSN#1519 "eis" (which is indeed "to/into") denotes "motion toward" as in the above passage where certain ones had been baptized eis-to-into-toward the name of Messiah but still had not yet received the Holy Spirit, (and therefore they were not fully GSN#1722 "en" the full immersion of the Holy Spirit). GSN#1722 "en" denotes rather a status or "state of being", ("IN") and therefore is the goal for which we strive to be FULLY IMMERSED INTO THE REMA SPOKEN WORD OF YESHUA which is found in the Four Gospel accounts. :)
 
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Arnie Manitoba

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dragonfly said:
What do you mean, Arnie? 'The Lord is not able to help you'??? Of course, He is!!! He is the Light before Whom all darkness must flee, or bow, if you prefer.

twinc, no-one comes out of their mother's womb, already a Christian. A Christian's inner life has God as its source, not the life of 'the spirit that now works in the cbildren of disobedience'. Ephesians 2:2.
The Lord helps me plenty dragon .... my weird comment was to twinc that I could not help him ..... based on my not understanding his post and his use of the word "mutt" ..... and he was calling us the confused ones.

I admit my continuing confusion as to what twinc was trying to say in the first place.

maybe it is just me.
 

dragonfly

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Hi Arnie,

You said
i am not able to help you , neither is the Lord , your issue resides under the skin of a twit called twinc

good luck dealing with that
and I realise it is not possible to go back an edit. But so... I still wonder why you would even suggest to twinc that the Lord is not able to help him? What you wrote is very clear.
The Lord helps me plenty dragon .... my weird comment was to twinc that I could not help him ..... based on my not understanding his post and his use of the word "mutt" ..... and he was calling us the confused ones.
And if the Lord is able to help you, why would He not be able to help twinc?
I admit my continuing confusion as to what twinc was trying to say in the first place.

maybe it is just me.
Well, so far, my reading of all twinc's opening posts is that they are worded in such a way as to not inform the reader of his private opinion. He is looking for intelligent - and I mean, EXTREMELY intelligent - responses, which guide him towards greater truth. But (I suspect) he already has some truth which he is trying to build into a coherent whole, with truth he has not yet received, or perhaps, rather, may not yet have understood.

Regarding new birth, or birth from above, there is no easy understanding of it. God is interested in hearts, and only hearts, because He knows how He made us, and He knows what is truly good for us, spiritually; He knows how to make us whole and complete, and fit for His company for eternity, and we do not have the first clue what is going on spiritually, until we start receiving His word and allowing Him to draw us closer to Himself. Whatever we have heard about God is not a patch on knowing Him - which we do with a completely different part of our human faculties, than our brains.

So, twinc, these verses are for you ... :) -

1 Corinthians 1: '... the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but to us which are saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
 

Guestman

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At Daniel 2, when Nebuchadnezzar the king of ancient Babylon had a dream (of an immense image composed of various metals) that Daniel was able to recall and explain by God's help, Daniel told Nebuchadnezzar: "The secret that the king himself is asking, the wise men, the conjurers, the magic-practicing priests and the astrologers themselves are unable to show the king. However, there exists a God in the heavens who is a revealer of secrets, and he has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what is to occur in the final part of the days."(Dan 2:27, 28)

Was Nebuchadnezzar's wise men, his conjurers (those who dealt with the dead in order to foretell the future), his magic-practicing priests and his astrologers able to relate the dream much less explain its meaning ? No.

On the other hand, Daniel provided the exact meaning, of five "kingdoms" that would have direct impact upon God's people, that during the rule of the last "kingdom" (feet and toes, Dan 2:41-43) that "the God of heaven will set up a kingdom....(that) will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms [the political governments existing in these "final part of the days" or "ten horns", Rev 17:12]."(Dan 2:44) How was Daniel able to give the proper explanation ? Because Daniel's God was Jehovah, who revealed it to him.

At Proverbs 25, it says that "the glory of God is the keeping of matter secret, and the glory of kings is the searching through a matter."(Prov 25:2) Jehovah God wrote the Bible in such a way that it a "secret" to those not deserving. On the other hand, "kings" are able to unlock its "secrets", "searching through a matter." Who are these "kings" ?

First off, these ones display a specific quality, for Jesus said concerning God's word: "I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things (made secret) from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes. Yes, O Father, because to do thus (of making his word like a secret) came to be the way approved by you."(Matt 11:25, 26) Hence, a person has to be like a "babe", teachable by God and allowing the Bible to speak for itself rather than as has the churches have done of "forcing a square peg in a round hole", forcing it to fit their interpretation.

Furthermore, at John 6:45, Jesus, quoting from Isaiah 54:13, said that among those who gain everlasting life are those who allow themselves to "be taught by Jehovah". Hence, the "kings" are those who humbly submit to Jehovah's rule, being taught him just as Jesus was taught by Jehovah.(John 8:28) In addition, the "kings" are ones who have been selected as members of God's kingdom, being anointed with holy spirit as "a token in advance of our inheritance", as being adopted as "sons of God."(Rom 8:15)

At Revelation 5, it says that with Jesus perfect shed blood he "bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you (Jesus) made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth."(Rev 5:9, 10) Thence, the "kings" are ones selected by Jehovah God (Matt 20:23; 2 Thess 2:13) to form the "kingdom" and who have the privilege of unlocking "the mysteries of the kingdom".(Matt 13:11)
 

Arnie Manitoba

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dragon .... twinc has all the identifiers of a troll ..... he asks a question ..... never presents his own views ..... then ridicules every answer that everyone gives ..... to me he is not trying to learn anything .... he is just stirring ..... and I repeat ..... maybe the Lord can help him overcome his affliction ..... BUT I AM UNABLE TO

I stand by what I said earlier ..... twinc is a twit in my opinion. Why should we be nice to a troll , or try to answer his questions ..... he obviously does not want answers ..... read his cynical replies
 

twinc

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Arnie Manitoba said:
dragon .... twinc has all the identifiers of a troll ..... he asks a question .....  never presents his own views ..... then ridicules every answer that everyone gives ..... to me he is not trying to learn anything .... he is just stirring ..... and I repeat ..... maybe the Lord can help him overcome his affliction ..... BUT I AM UNABLE TO
 
I stand by what I said earlier ..... twinc is a twit in my opinion. Why should  we be nice to a troll , or try to answer his questions ..... he obviously does not want answers .....  read his cynical replies
 

naturally he is not at all welcome by some,who presume to know how it is or how it should be for he seems to cut the very ground from under the feet of twits who would obviously regard him as a twit - twinc

 
dragonfly said:
Hi Arnie,

You said

and I realise it is not possible to go back an edit. But so... I still wonder why you would even suggest to twinc that the Lord is not able to help him? What you wrote is very clear.

And if the Lord is able to help you, why would He not be able to help twinc?

Well, so far, my reading of all twinc's opening posts is that they are worded in such a way as to not inform the reader of his private opinion. He is looking for intelligent - and I mean, EXTREMELY intelligent - responses, which guide him towards greater truth. But (I suspect) he already has some truth which he is trying to build into a coherent whole, with truth he has not yet received, or perhaps, rather, may not yet have understood.

Regarding new birth, or birth from above, there is no easy understanding of it. God is interested in hearts, and only hearts, because He knows how He made us, and He knows what is truly good for us, spiritually; He knows how to make us whole and complete, and fit for His company for eternity, and we do not have the first clue what is going on spiritually, until we start receiving His word and allowing Him to draw us closer to Himself. Whatever we have heard about God is not a patch on knowing Him - which we do with a completely different part of our human faculties, than our brains.

So, twinc, these verses are for you ... :) -

1 Corinthians 1: '... the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but to us which are saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
 

absolutely agree with the two verses when directed at the relevant person or persons - twinc
 

dragonfly

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Thanks, twinc. :)



Hi daq,

That was a great post about eis and en. Thanks for taking trouble to explain them.

On a different note, can you remember which thread we were speaking about Azal, please? I have something to add/ask, there. Many thanks.
 
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biggandyy

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You all are very far off. Before a single word of scripture can be interpreted we must first be able to do two things competently: Understand Language and Think Critically (i.e. logically).

The message of scripture is so simple a child can comprehend it's basic meaning, even before they have mastered the above two things. But they aren't interpreting, they are receiving the message from an adult or other person assumed to be competent in Language and Logic.

You can hand me a Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament and even though I can perform quite sophisticated logical locutions, because my experience in koine Greek is limited, my ability to interpret scripture is likewise limited. The reverse is also true, There are those who are competent at reading their native language but have next to zero critical apparatus in as far as the ability to discern rational from irrational statements. They too are limited in their interpretive prowess.

Before we go and try to interpret scripture as a personal mental exercise, we must make a sober and honest assessment of our language and logical skills. If they are lacking, any attempt at scriptural interpretation WILL meet in failure, ridicule, and heresy.
 

Guestman

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twinc said:
who or what decides scripture interpretation - should we not take Jesus at His word in the literal sense that He did actually mean that anyone who is not a Christian must be born again as a Christian - any comments - twinc
At Matthew 24, three days before his death, Jesus asked a question that raised other questions: "Who really ("really", Greek ara, that is "an interrogative particle ["implying anxiety or impatience on the part of the questioner".], i.e. marking of an inferential question to which a negative answer is expected", Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, pg 71) is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time ?"(Matt 24:45)

In an earlier setting, Jesus used the Greek word ara concerning who is the greatest in the kingdom, asking: " Who really (Greek ara) is greatest in the kingdom of the heavens ?"(Matt 18:1) Then later, after Jesus had said that it would be "easier for a camel to get through a needle's eye than for a rich man to get into the kingdom of the heavens", the disciples replied: "Who really (Greek ara) can be saved ?" (Matt 19:25)

On both occasions, it was as if there was not an answer, but a continuous questioning or doubt as to who was the "greatest" or who could be saved under these circumstances. It was as if there was an interrogative process going on, in which they may have felt that no answer was possible.

Thus, Jesus used the Greek word ara at Matthew 24:45 because he recognized that during his (invisible) "presence"(Greek parousia, Matt 24:3, 37, 39), that many would place doubt or question as to whom Jesus was speaking of as "the faithful and discreet slave" that would provide genuine spiritual food, through which the "truths" of the Bible would come forth, from the explanation of why God has permitted wickedness due to his sovereignty being called into question at Genesis 3:1 to unlocking the mystery of Revelation.

Many would question as to who the "faithful and discreet slave" would be, and most would never come to understand just who the "faithful and discreet slave" is that is assigned by Jesus to be the central source of dispensing accurate knowledge of the Bible. Because it does not fit their prerequisite of who the "faithful and discreet slave" is, they discount the facts and perhaps continue looking, or just give up, or thinking that through them God may be explaining (or revealing) Scripture as by a special arrangement.
 
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dragonfly

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You all are very far off. Before a single word of scripture can be interpreted we must first be able to do two things competently: Understand Language and Think Critically (i.e. logically).

The message of scripture is so simple a child can comprehend it's basic meaning, even before they have mastered the above two things. But they aren't interpreting, they are receiving the message from an adult or other person assumed to be competent in Language and Logic.

You can hand me a Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament and even though I can perform quite sophisticated logical locutions, because my experience in koine Greek is limited, my ability to interpret scripture is likewise limited. The reverse is also true, There are those who are competent at reading their native language but have next to zero critical apparatus in as far as the ability to discern rational from irrational statements. They too are limited in their interpretive prowess.

Before we go and try to interpret scripture as a personal mental exercise, we must make a sober and honest assessment of our language and logical skills. If they are lacking, any attempt at scriptural interpretation WILL meet in failure, ridicule, and heresy.


Hi Andy,

To a certain extent I agree - that it is helpful to use reputable literary tools when digging into scripture. But I would not agree that they are the only help of the Christian. The Holy Spirit is well able to reveal truth to the avid Bible reader, totally apart from the use of a decent concordance.

I think the Church suffers from the individualistic training its members received while growing up in the world. There is nothing in Ephesians 4 which implies that everyone needs to be a competent Bible teacher. Quite the opposite is true - the God calls and equips His ministers to equip the body, and the body also ministers to the ministers. The Lord is wonderfully able to use unlearned people, but who will obey Him.
 

daq

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dragonfly said:
Thanks, twinc. :)



Hi daq,

That was a great post about eis and en. Thanks for taking trouble to explain them.

On a different note, can you remember which thread we were speaking about Azal, please? I have something to add/ask, there. Many thanks.
Hi dragonfly. I remember you had a thread going, (which I did respond to several times) yet one person alone posted three different threads concerning the very same passage within several days time and it became very confusing. The place where I made some of the more relevant and critical comments regarding this topic is found in the following thread: Chapter 14

However, as will be seen in all those threads, if one has no desire to follow the Blood of the Lamb then the same will never find the fissure of Azal which leads him to the House of the Side, (Beth Ha-Etzel) and Gan Eden, (which is hidden in "death" and the catacombs). :)
 

domenic

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BORN AGAIN?

God says to, “Take off the old personality, and put on the new.” The act of baptism is an proclamation to all in Heaven, and Earth, “We are now servants of the living God.”
Since we are all daily sinners, we must be reborn daily.
 

biggandyy

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dragonfly said:
Hi Andy,

To a certain extent I agree - that it is helpful to use reputable literary tools when digging into scripture. .
That is not the point of what I typed at all. The point is not using some sort of tool or reference but if the individual has the ability to think rationally and understand language competently (i.e. their native language). I know many a fool who can only speak in expletives (and some of those fools are college professors), I also know many a poor man whose merest utterance is profound beyond belief.