who or what decides scripture interpretation - should we not take Jesus at His word in the literal sense that He did actually mean that anyone who is not a Christian must be born again as a Christian - any comments - twinc
Scripture interpretation ?
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yes twinc .... i think we can take Jesus at his word .....
however , maybe the question should be .... define ... "born again"
100 people will give a 100 different answers.
including me would make 101
however , maybe the question should be .... define ... "born again"
100 people will give a 100 different answers.
including me would make 101
Born again is by the Spirit born from above higher up knowledge for God's ways are higher than ours.
Rom 12:1-2
12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
KJV
To know the will of God, means to know in an instance what to do according to God's Word in any situation in life. His Word is His last will and testament.
Rom 12:1-2
12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
KJV
To know the will of God, means to know in an instance what to do according to God's Word in any situation in life. His Word is His last will and testament.
the one we are to go to for interpretation shoul be the author and finisher of our faith. the word teaches us about two different meanings to the word 'WORD' in the bible. one is logos which is any information given to us by anything other then God himself. the other is rhema which is anything given to us directly from God himself and not through a prophet or bible or anything else. the bible is logos until God himself reveals something to us then what God revealed to us becomes rhema to us.
God bless
God bless
Scripture interpretation is both a skill and a gift. When Paul wrote to Timothy, he exhorted him to pay attention to doctrine, to teach and to correct. In fact, the word doctrine is found more times in the letters to Timothy than all the rest of the bible put together. Timothy was called in that capacity. He was called and evangelist (2Tim.4:5). Contrary to popular use of the word, an evangelist is not a person out there winning souls for the kingdom. There are five ministry gifts to the church. God gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors, and teachers (Eph.4:11,12). Their role is to equip the saints (everyone else) for the work of ministry. The work of ministry includes winning souls. That is not limited to a special person. Everyone has a part to play.twinc said:
From the example of Timothy, we can understand that the evangelist is a gift from God to the church, to teach doctrine.
( By the way, if you have never heard this before, in my case, neither did I until I came across it in my own personal study and prayer time. )
The modern equivalent category is called apologetics. Those who are involved in this area, who have been taught, have a certain set of protocol in bible interpretation. There are rules to follow that have been determined and agreed upon by those who have done the legwork in this area. I am aware of some of these rules and guidelines from my own study, practice, and prayer, and others by way of hearing about them from a few bible apologists. But it goes without saying that this is meant to be empowered by the Holy Spirit. With His guidance, the everage layman can learn much. But the million dollar question is, just who decides who is gifted by God in this area?
In regards to your question, for starters I have noticed that you have put your own words in Jesus' mouth. He did not literally say that one must be born again "as a Christian". What He did say that if one is to enter (and see) the kingdom of God, he must be born again. Jesus did not use the word 'christian'. Entering God's kingdom requires a new birth. This is not negotiable. Jesus did not leave room for another way. But then, you have not asked what born again means, on this thread. There is mention of water, and Spirit.
cheers, Howie
here we go again - He did not mean what He said ,He meant this,that and the other - some say this and some say that ad infinitum - Nicodemus had it not far wrong - we must be born again[baptised and hence a Christian]either in this life or a future life if not already a Christian - there will be no future life for Christians to be born again imho as I toy with the idea and meaning and explanation - twinc
The new birth is not just baptism. When we examine other passages we can see that it is the giving from God and receiving by us, a new nature through the new man (Eph.4:24). If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. That is the point of the second birth. God will not allow man in his present condition to remain in His creation. God is doing away with the species as it exists, and re creating us with His divine nature rather than the one we are born with. Our first birth was by water. The second is by the Holy Spirit. In physical birth, the woman goes into labor when her water breaks. However, if one wants to insist that it refers to water baptism, then we come into a legalistic loophole that I don't see in scripture. If you want to criticize the debating of scripture, then you are automatically involved in that which you criticize.twinc said:
as stated before here we go again and again - only as a Christian is it possible to be born of water and spirit - hence Baptism and Confirmation - born again as in the parable of the wedding feast and wedding garment first and foremost means putting on Christ - of course Christ did not say we must be born again as Christians because there were no Christians then but that imho is what He meant - twinc
williemac said:
as stated before here we go again and again - only as a Christian is it possible to be born of water and spirit - hence Baptism and Confirmation - born again as in the parable of the wedding feast and wedding garment first and foremost means putting on Christ - of course Christ did not say we must be born again as Christians because there were no Christians then but that imho is what He meant - twinc
Here's a few verse to look at twinc, maybe read a bit before and after each as well. Your looking for living water which is the Holy Spirit.twinc said:
Mark 1:8
Matthew 3:11
Luke 3:16
John 4:1-26 don't get sold short living water is the Holy Spirit. Seek to be born of living water, repentance is the baptism of plain water.
10 Jesus answered and said to her, “If
you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a
drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living
water.”
11 The woman said to Him, “Sir, You have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep. Where then do You get that living water? 12 Are You greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank from it himself, as well as his sons and his livestock?”
13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but
whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst.
But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of
water springing up into everlasting life.”
15 The woman said to Him, “Sir, give me this water, that I may not thirst, nor come here to draw.”
The Bible is not only history, it is a book full of parables, allegories and mysteries so much so that NO MAN can find them all out and especially without God's Spirit to guide them to find all the hidden manna. To the average reader the book seems B o r i n g (Yawn) but that is to weed out the RIFF RAFF who do not really have a heart to seek God. Jesus said the mysteries are given to those who ask(for the Father's help), seek (the Father's wisdom) and knock and keep on knocking on the "Door" like a little child that has a million and one questions for their Daddy and cling to every Word that comes out of His mouth and take it as THE TRUTH.twinc said:
Before you read your Bible lay your right hand upon it and ask the Father(with all sincerity of heart for you can not fool Him) to show you the truth and to give you full understanding. Because He will NEVER let you down when you come to HIM for ANYTHING that is according to His will(Word) for your good and comfort. We must immerse our whole vessel/body/tent in the living water to fill it up with the Spirit of truth so that we can get cleansed inwardly and then outwardly things will begin to manifest for us.
Matt 7:7-11
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
KJV
The Spirit of God draws us to the Word and is THE Best gift that you can give anyone, for it is the LOVE OF GOD that brings blessings to our life.
Matt 13:10-16
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
KJV
Where are you getting this garble? We are called Christians because we have been born again. The new birth comes first.It is what makes us in Christ, therefore, Christians. water baptism and confirmation are merely symbols after the fact, that are not necessary for salvation. Read Rom.10:9. No baptism or confirmation mentioned. In fact, none mentioned in John 3:16, John 6:47, John 6:50,51 ( all words of Jesus), We are now confusing the traditions of men with what is important to God? (re:confirmation) God knows our heart. We need not confirm our faith in a ceremony. We receive the Spirit by the hearing of faith. The presence of the Spirit within the believer is proof enough of saving faith. He is given as a guaruntee of our inheritance (2Cor.5:5, Eph.1:14).twinc said:
Rocky Wiley
Active Member
Hi twinc,twinc said:
The key word is 'again'. Born again of the water and the Spirit (Caps for God). It can not mean the water of natural birth because it said 'again'. The only water mentioned in baptism is natural water.
Act 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Act 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.
Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Were you also baptized with FIRE when you first believed?williemac said:
I think not because it simply does not happen the way you describe it:
Luke 3:16-17 KJV
16. John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
17. Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.
Luke 12:49-53 RSV
49. "I came to cast fire upon the earth; and would that it were already kindled!
50. I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how I am constrained until it is accomplished!
51. Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division;
52. for henceforth in one house there will be five divided, three against two and two against three;
53. they will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against her mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law."
Matthew 3:11-12 KJV
11. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12. Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Matthew 13:41-43 KJV
41. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42. And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
And if your own "house" has not been "divided" then your baptism with fire likewise cannot yet have occurred. And if your baptism with fire has not yet occurred then you are not yet truly born from above according to the Scripture, (regardless of the traditions of men and teachings of the modern shepherds). The "will of God" is firstly our sanctification before anyone receives the promise, (Hebrews 10:36 KJV, 1 Thessalonians 4:3 KJV).
The Greek word translated again actually means from above, i.e., born from above. 'Born again' is OK, but really lacks the clarity that 'born from above' has.Rocky Wiley said:
G509 ἄνωθεν anothen (an'-o-then) adv.
1. from above
2. (by analogy) from the first
3. (by implication) anew
[from G507]
Rocky Wiley
Active Member
Hi,ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
You are correct about the Greek word for 'again' but the other scriptures quoted concerning water still holds true.
Act 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water,
So to be "born from above" would still involve water and Spirit.
Thanks for your input.
We make things so complicated, don't we? Scripture is not to be analyzed it is to be acted on.
John_7:17 If any man will (1) do his will, he shall (2) know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
In our society and human nature in general, we always wanted to know all the "ins and outs" before we act. That is the way we are with buying any big item whether it is a house or car, etc. We want to know all the details before we act.
But Jesus says, "Do what I tell you, and then you will know why!!"
Now, that takes faith. But, if you can't trust Jesus, who can you trust?
John_7:17 If any man will (1) do his will, he shall (2) know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
In our society and human nature in general, we always wanted to know all the "ins and outs" before we act. That is the way we are with buying any big item whether it is a house or car, etc. We want to know all the details before we act.
But Jesus says, "Do what I tell you, and then you will know why!!"
Now, that takes faith. But, if you can't trust Jesus, who can you trust?
Jesus said you must be born of water and of Spirit to enter the Kingdom of God
I do not think he is referring to receiving the Holy Spirit as christians
For the following reason ....
We are not like the wind going everywhere we please without anyone telling where we come from or go to
John 3:8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
For that reason the "born of the Spirit" aspect must come after our physical death or something.
I do not think he is referring to receiving the Holy Spirit as christians
For the following reason ....
We are not like the wind going everywhere we please without anyone telling where we come from or go to
John 3:8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
For that reason the "born of the Spirit" aspect must come after our physical death or something.
Rom_8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.Arnie Manitoba said:
Rom_8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom_8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
2Co_13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
It is impossible for anyone to live the Christian life without the Spirit of God dwelling in them. Cam't be done. Spiritual regeneration and a new heart come from a work of the Spirit dwelling within.
well said, brother.Axehead said:
There are too many false Christians or lip-servers.
Jesus says we know them by their fruit ( action or practice).
Christianity is way of life, not just concept.
axe
I did not say the christian is not indwelt by the Holy Spirit
What i did say was that Jesus' description of.... "born of the Spirit" ... sounds like something else
as per John 3:8
I did not say the christian is not indwelt by the Holy Spirit
What i did say was that Jesus' description of.... "born of the Spirit" ... sounds like something else
as per John 3:8
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