Scriptures that trinitarians Don't Want You to Know About - #5, Book of Acts

[Wrangler]

Then stick with Scripture
1. John 10:29-30
The Father is greater than All
while also the Son and the Father are One

John 17:22. We are also one with the Father, who is God. That does not make us God.

 

[Wrangler]

2. Baptize all Nations in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit

Which says nothing about the nature of God and believing it is a requirement for salvation.

 

[Emily Nghiem]

Change in topic.

What you wrote is not relevant to the Biblical fact that several men who were not God were worshipped. If you want to talk about something else, feel free to start a new thread.

We do not rely on worshipping other people anymore.

Is that more clear?

 

[Emily Nghiem]

Which says nothing about the nature of God and believing it is a requirement for salvation.

Exactly
So we stick with what it says literally.
No more no less.
No arguing!

Thank you @Wrangler
If it works to stop arguing with JW
we can all be at peace by sticking
with Scripture!

 

[Emily Nghiem]

John 17:22. We are also one with the Father, who is God. That does not make us God.

Yes, man being reconciled with God
through Christ Jesus is because we cannot
ourselves be God. Through Christ the church can be made WHOLE or perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect.
In this sense Christ makes us, our will, ONE with God. But humans are finite, God is infinite, being ONE with God is not
saying we are on the same level as God who is "greater than all."

 

[APAK]

Yes it is relevant.
Once we receive Jesus we no longer follow the old ways of sacrificing lambs and following priests or leaders for our salvation.

@Wrangler if we do not establish a clear understanding of how Christ Jesus fulfills the laws and makes all things new, this is the real stickler holding things up from reaching agreement on other things.

Laws were given followed and enforced legalistically, by the letter where works and doing right and wrong by MAN's interpretation of justice and the laws, where these old ways of following MAMMON led to death and destruction by greed for power and control over authority and land and people. We see this spirit of Antichrist today. People use local power to compete with other tribes.

God sent Jesus to break the cycle of sin and material conditions causing endless suffering and enslavement by corruption of the laws.

Christ Jesus renews the Spirit of Restorative Justice so we live as equal children of our One Father in Heaven.

The old ways were when humanity was in early stages and needed to follow parental authority figures and leaders for safe guidance until we mature.

The NT is becoming new creatures made perfect or whole/mature in Christ Jesus.

So we no longer worship elders but we do respect and receive all sent by God as holy.

We just do not make idols or graven images.

We honor all our mothers and fathers, elders and teachers, in the context of God bringing blessings through Christ Jesus who governs us all.

Yes we still respect leaders and teachers, prophets and messengers.

While Jesus is above these as the Lord of lords or the Authority of Law over all laws.

That is why Jesus is in the middle between God the Father in Heaven, and the Holy Spirit that brings peace and comfort to the people of the church on the earthly level.

All the other leaders and teachers, prophets and messengers are joined and governed by Jesus as God's true laws/Word and Justice.

Jesus is the Lord over all laws that was always with God in Heaven and manifested to be embodied in earth to bring reconnciliation with man and natural laws and God with divine laws.

You will not see other leaders in the Bible called both the Son of Man and the Son of God, but Christ Jesus alone.

Emily, you speak of a different view of Law, a physical-community-based view, and then superimpose it on this subject, Biblical Law. I cannot reconcile your words with scripture and my beliefs at this point.

Christ did not renew the Spirit of Restorative Justice so we live as equal children of our One Father in Heaven. This is a strange and vague statement to me. And equal in what way?

Yahshua fulfilled the OT Law(s) and the Prophets - both the moral and ceremonial laws by his perfect sinless life and his sacrificed death. He became our High priest. He also became both our Redeemer and Savior.

We are under the Law of Christ today (Gal 6:2)

The Old Law had an expiration date and has now past. It also was the shadow as the imperfect Law that could never please God. It looked forward to the day of being perfected, in the Christ. Christ built upon this OT Law system and he became its perfection or and completion for us.

The term that you used 'Restorative Justice,' does imply an impersonal and community based form of repairing wrongs based on human standards and processes. Christ came to restore our standing with his Father - with the standard of perfection. For those that believe in him and possess his Spirit today, they are INDIVIDUALLY healed and not communally healed along with non-believers for example who do not wish to know the real Christ. He healed only true believers who believe in the one gospel of the narrow path to life, and not the wide religious 100 lane highway. It is a personal individual cleansing of sin and restoration with the Father.

The 10 Commandment for example, are geared to an individual and not to a collective or community. (You shall, as in singular and personal Tu, not community - Vous) And in the New Jerusalem, the 'City of Light' there is equality in drinking for the Tree of Life there. However, there is inequality in rewards given to each in the Kingdom. These are based on Christ's system of righteousness and not on any human, earth-based form of justice. It is Spiritual Law and not of any physical, constitutional, or of any ideology or political persuasion.

The Law(s) of Christ is really the Father's Law of righteousness, written in each believer's heart.

APAK

 

[teamventure]

^ ??? ^
Dear @teamventure
You lack faith that @Wrangler is a believer.
From my experience, with people denying that someone else is a believer in situations like this, the skeptic is projecting their own bias about beliefs onto the other person.
This says more about you and what you believe or don't, than it says about the person you are judging (who can be judged by his own words and responses).

I also look at the difference in how people respond to input.

When I shared input with Wrangler the acceptance is mutual. We agree enough on the faith we have in common. In try to understand and gain as much from what Wrangler shares, including objections, and try to offer equal insights. There are the same points left to be resolved, that hasn't changed, but I sense we both have faith in working further as we go. So far I see Wrangler as open and seeking to understand and work through this. I attribute this openness to the forgiveness factor, and giving some space for differences instead of assuming the other person is in denial if they aren't agreeing to the same terms.

I am not getting that same impression from you yet. I am picking up the sense that you don't think you need to forgive any differences because you believe you are right about the conditions you present as established, you believe you are correct in judging Wrangler as a nonbeliever, so this somehow justifies treating him as less than an equal.

Am I reading this right?

Are you coming at this situation as if you are right, Wrangler has nothing to offer or teach you in return, but you expect Wrangler to change or you reject this person.

So do you see this as a "oneway" process?
Either Wrangler meets your criteria or you reject him, and you don't need to reconcile or do anything on your side because Wrangler is inferior to you?

Is this what I'm hearing?

Sorry if I am misreading this.

I have better success approaching situations as equal believers.

If both you and Wrangler claim to be believers, I hold you to that and treat you as such.

I do not understand how you or anyone can approach someone assuming they are a "nonbeliever" and talk down to them as an inferior, and expect to be received.

At the very least, if you really believe Wrangler to be inferior or "nonpersona" , I would think this calls for having even more forgiveness or compassion, not less.

Sorry @teamventure I don't understand where you are coming from.

I would rather start over, and start from what you believe and what your mission or calling is.

I am not getting where you are coming from by how you address Wrangler.

Can we start over?
Please point, refer or tag me to any post or comment or "statement of faith" you have that tells me what you believe is the right approach to teaching others.

Sorry I am not understanding you this way, but would rather start fresh!

Yours truly, Emily

Stopped reading at the words present as established. It has already been established that Christ is God in the flesh. That is not something anyone needs to establish. What motivates me is the truth not some projection of my own insecurities. The reason I come accross as bold is because I am confronting the spiritual forces of deception not people.

 

[teamventure]

@teamventure
To say "believing Christ is God" can mean different things to different people in different contexts.

This is an ill advised way to try to assess someone's faith.

To assess Wrangler's faith, I'd have to take HIS words and ways of relating to God and faith in Christ (not your words and ways which define where you are in your walk with God and faith development) and hold him to his own standards.

Your ways apply to you.
I would need to understand where you are coming from to get a more clear idea of you.

I do not think it is wise or effective to judge anyone by the standards of someone else.

If that is what is going on here, I pray God have mercy and direct us to better ways than this.

Otherwise this seems a recipe for misery.
And I do not wish that on anyone!

Please reconsider.
I'd much rather start over, let each profess and share faith experiences, where we support each other to grow in our path and resolve any issues that way, by supporting and uplifting each other to become better. Not competing to make each other wrong or pull each other down.

@teamventure How can we help make things right? And help each other to be better at what we already agree and commit to?

I have always found this to be a mutual process. Never one way. If you have new things to teach me, that means I have equal insights to share with you.

If you do not allow Wrangler to share what he sees and has to offer, there is no room for him to gain as much from you.

Clearly you want to add something you don't think he has.

Can we take a better approach where we can share equally without imposing how each other talks about God and Jesus.

Some people fully embrace and embody Jesus and some do not.

Some people understand phrases like "Jesus is the Son of God" or "Jesus is God" and some do not. The "Trinity" and that whole explanation is completely baffling or even contradictory to some, and is not the best way to explain or assess a person's beliefs.

Can we admit this differs without making negative judgments or assumptions about people?

Your posts sound like you believe truth is subjective. If so, you are wrong.
The truth has already been established in scripture.
The truth existed before the foundations of the world.
It sounds like you need to reconsider.

 

[teamventure]

believes what, that the sky is green or grass is blue?
We believe what God has revealed divine and catholic faith de fide dogma
The truth and thee faith eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

Believes that God came in the flesh for starters, then we can get to the color of the grass and sky. Lol.

 

[teamventure]

Some people cannot read into someone's heart and spirit to discern who is in line with the faith. Especially not online.

People will use questions or conditions but it is really testing your reaction.

In my experiences, NOBODY would pass the tests put out there by ANYBODY. Technically we are all going to fail.

What is REALLY going on, is people are selecting which people or groups we can forgive or not.

If we forgive the same things, or forgive each other our differences, we can work together DESPITE not meeting every condition.

We are not going to change everyone's mind and all get on the exact same page.

Heavenly peace is being okay with this.

If you think these flaws mean going to hell, you are already on that path.

No one passes these tests, not even our own conditions. We all fail, here or there, and the real faith in Christ is calling on God's forgiveness and correction, not relying on ours. Our will words and works follow from God's.

Please tell your wife thank you for her wisdom and prayers as well!

God bless you and may all the Wisdom of God be received and multiplied in abundance!

Don't know if you noticed, this is a debate forum.

 

[teamventure]

Jesus is not God.

That statement is why I said spirit of antichrist.
Scripture is clear if you do not confess God in the flesh you are of antichrist.
(That was more for Emily's info as Wrangler and I already went through this.)

 

[teamventure]

My questions never answered!

1 jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Jn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.


2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

2 Peter 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Psalm 86:15
But thou, O Lord, art a God full of compassion, and gracious, long suffering, and plenteous in mercy and truth.

Exodus 34:6
And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,


Only God can grant men peace

Jn 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

my peace!
Gods peace!


John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

how can a man be the life?
God is life

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

in the new creation God also breathed life into them

Jn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:


Click to expand...
lk 2:30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,

31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;

32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.



Only God has blinding glory

Acts 9:1And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,

2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

Matt 5: 21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, (by God) Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Only God have the commandments only God can change them!
Matthew 8:26
And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.
Only God has this power!
Matt 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Only God!
John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Only God can be this!
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Only God!

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

God became man!

Great scripture. I agree.
That sums it up God became man.

 

[kcnalp]

No where in Scripture. The trinity is man-made.

No Scripture? Of course you don't!

 

[kcnalp]

I agree that Jesus is our lord, just not the LORD God Almighty.

Isn't Revelation in your Bible?

Revelation 1:8 (NKJV)
8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
Revelation 1:17-18 (NKJV)
17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
Revelation 2:8 (NKJV)
8 "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write, 'These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life:
Revelation 2:18-23 (NKJV)
18 "And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write, 'These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass:

 

[teamventure]

You know apostacy is running rampant in a thread when people say that community relationships are more important than the doctrine of who is or isn't God.

 

[Emily Nghiem]

Emily, you speak of a different view of Law, a physical-community-based view, and then superimpose it on this subject, Biblical Law. I cannot reconcile your words with scripture and my beliefs at this point.

Christ did not renew the Spirit of Restorative Justice so we live as equal children of our One Father in Heaven. This is a strange and vague statement to me. And equal in what way?

Yahshua fulfilled the OT Law(s) and the Prophets - both the moral and ceremonial laws by his perfect sinless life and his sacrificed death. He became our High priest. He also became both our Redeemer and Savior.

We are under the Law of Christ today (Gal 6:2)

The Old Law had an expiration date and has now past. It also was the shadow as the imperfect Law that could never please God. It looked forward to the day of being perfected, in the Christ. Christ built upon this OT Law system and he became its perfection or and completion for us.

The term that you used 'Restorative Justice,' does imply an impersonal and community based form of repairing wrongs based on human standards and processes. Christ came to restore our standing with his Father - with the standard of perfection. For those that believe in him and possess his Spirit today, they are INDIVIDUALLY healed and not communally healed along with non-believers for example who do not wish to know the real Christ. He healed only true believers who believe in the one gospel of the narrow path to life, and not the wide religious 100 lane highway. It is a personal individual cleansing of sin and restoration with the Father.

The 10 Commandment for example, are geared to an individual and not to a collective or community. (You shall, as in singular and personal Tu, not community - Vous) And in the New Jerusalem, the 'City of Light' there is equality in drinking for the Tree of Life there. However, there is inequality in rewards given to each in the Kingdom. These are based on Christ's system of righteousness and not on any human, earth-based form of justice. It is Spiritual Law and not of any physical, constitutional, or of any ideology or political persuasion.

The Law(s) of Christ is really the Father's Law of righteousness, written in each believer's heart.

APAK

Dear @APAK
Sorry I am not trying to take man's laws or religion and "impose" that on God's, but the other way around. Trying to take God's world or the Kingdom of God where we live in heavenly peace, and "translate" that vision into existing terms we already relate to.

Like Jesus explaining what the Kingdom of God is like,but using Parables of fishing and farming. He was not taking farming or fishing and "imposing that" on God. He was taking the vision of God's perfect will and plan, and explaining in tangible terms like a metaphor.

This is the best way I know to explain.
When we all live in peace, we become like children who naturally connect in harmony.

As for Restorative Justice, this is the best way I can explain in tangible secular terms the difference between:
(a) living in enslavement by the laws as "retributive justice" where man's laws of justice lead to competing for power to judge and punish people for control, where abuse of authority of law and justice is Antichrist and imposes lawlessness and injustice while claiming to be proper authority.
(b) Restorative Justice where trespasses or wrongs are resolved for justice and peace through forgiveness correction and mutually agree restitution to restore good faith relations. This is the difference between living by Christ Jesus Authority bringing peace, vs Antichrist which corrupts and abuses govt for power to dominate by greed.

Again @APAK Not trying to take man's experiences and project that onto God, but the opposite. Taking the differences between the old ways when the selfish broad path of destruction leads to death, and compare to the new ways where Jesus brings life and rebirth in the Kingdom of God.
And trying to put that in tangible terms of "before and after".
Before Jesus sacrifice and redemption, the ways of man led to destruction and death.
This phase is retributive justice, where we live by material reward and punishment based on man's laws of right and wrong. But living by our own judgment by the letter of the law gets corrupted by greed for power and Mammon for selfish material benefit that biases our judgment and sense of justice to favor our own individual interests.

After receiving Jesus brought to our level, then we can be freed from the old ways of living by material manmade justice, and embrace this new Justice of God fulfilling the laws by the Spirit of God.

So the old ways that were corrupted are replaced or corrected with the new ways made perfect in Christ Jesus.

In Christ all things are made new. Rev 4

There are no Jews or Gentiles, bond nor free, all are made One in Christ.

The same governing Authority of Jesus as Lord fulfills the path of the churched fold of believers under Scriptural laws, as well as the Gentiles under Natural laws.

What I described was the secular model of explaining the difference Jesus makes to the Gentiles under Natural laws of justice.

Maybe that is why it seems foreign and outside your realm. If you are under *Scriptural* laws and authority, you know Jesus fulfills that.

But for secular Gentiles who see the Bible as foreign and outside their natural world, I use examples from *Natural laws* comparing the two approaches to Justice to explain what the Kingdom of God is like in practical real life terms: The difference it makes to live by "God's justice" through Jesus so this is perfect and brings peace, Vs "man's justice" biased by mammon and greedy self interests so it brings endless suffering war and hell.

My apologies if this seems foreign to you.
The secular gentiles and nontheist thinkers (who think the Bible sounds foreign, or totally "made up by man") can follow this comparison better.

Please consider it like a parable.
Perhaps it seems as impossible to you, as trying to explain the "Bible and Son of God" to nontheistic people who think in purely secular terms.

Now you know how Atheists or Buddhists feel when they hear Biblical talk that doesn't make sense to them either!

If we can connect anyway, and see the parallels, we might still understand how Jesus changes the process, where instead of dying from repeating the retribution from the past, we can choose the path of forgiveness and restoration that Christ Jesus offers bringing peace and new life.

It is not man trying to change this process on our own. The true Restorative Justice movement is only possible by accepting the Grace of God through Christ Jesus to restore Justice and Peace.

Those are the secular manifestations of Jesus and the Holy Spirit I use to explain these universal principles to nontheists in plain terms.

I hope this helps!
This is how I translate the universal meaning and message in the Bible to secular thinkers so they can understand why Jesus saves humanity from destruction.

 

[Emily Nghiem]

Isn't Revelation in your Bible?

Revelation 1:8 (NKJV)
8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
Revelation 1:17-18 (NKJV)
17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
Revelation 2:8 (NKJV)
8 "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write, 'These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life:
Revelation 2:18-23 (NKJV)
18 "And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write, 'These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass:

Yes Jesus as Lord means Authority of Law.
God's Law/Word/Justice made incarnate in Jesus to reach man.

Jesus as the Son of God
is distinct from God the Father as Creator.

When we invoke God's Authority of LAW this manifests through Jesus on the level of LAWs which we embody and follow by Conscience.

This is a distinct role or level,
The INTERMEDIARY between God and man.

Jesus is ONE with God,
while simultaneously God is still greater.

The THREE are
God the Father
Jesus the Son
and the Holy Spirit

Not God the Father
God the Father
and the Holy Spirit

There is a reason God the Father is first,
before Jesus Christ the Son.

From God's truth and will
comes God's Justice through Jesus
and receiving Jesus/Justice brings
Peace to humanity by the Holy Spirit.

These are ONE with God,
while God the Father is still greater than all.

John 10:29-30

 

[Emily Nghiem]

@Emily Nghiem not to throw the conversion my way, although I do think that @Wrangler does not believe that the Son created his own Father. That would be an incredible idea.

I'm curious where you might have picked up that idea from your post #374 when you said "Again I can understand the Father creating the Son to be sent that man may receive and reconcile, but NEVER see anything in the Bible that the Son created the Father."

APAK

Dear @APAK
1. If you mean making the comparison
that God created Jesus not Jesus creating the Father, this was inspired while I was in the middle of an online religion discussion between Jehovah's Witnesses, a fundamental Christian, and two atheists who couldn't understand either arguments for or against any "Trinity" if both ways were made up. Same arguments kept going around, where "Jesus is God" or "Jesus is one with God" were not satisfactory to people behind the other way of saying it.
So I tried to help point out Jesus is God can mean being God's will/law/Word without confusing Jesus/God as interchangeable.

Some of this helps, but each person has a different way. The biggest help is when people agree to forgive/ let go of judging or denouncing people for seeing God in different ways.

2. As for where did my understanding come from originally.
A. When I was around 6 or 7, a neighbor showed me a pamphlet about Jesus and invited me to ask Jesus to live in my heart. I felt so sad for Jesus suffering in the picture on the cross, of course I wanted to make poor Jesus happy. So if taking Jesus into my heart made Him happy, of course I said yes.
I didn't know or do anything after that.
I tried praying to God once in 5th grade and when I got what I asked I promised God I just wanted to do anything and everything to make people happy.
I forgot about all this and went on.
It was over 10 years later, after going through a relationship that turned out to be a nightmare of fraud and abuse leading to grievous tragedy, I broke up and started over. When I made the decision to forgive all the blame for the abuse, the forgiveness and letting go of all conditions from the past opened a spiritual door. And God started showing me both the past and the future like my life and the history of humanity flashing through my mind in symbolic images I thought were real.
Ever since then, I have been taking this vision and learning to put it in words.
I knew from the start this was God talking or showing me things. And I have followed teachers who could best explain what is taught in Christianity and the Bible, what is taught in Buddhism, what are the Natural and Constitutional laws and terms that mean the same things.

Again this isn't taking manmade symbols or ways and projecting them onto God.

It is taking what God showed me I need to learn, and matching the concepts and ideas to effective ways to represent those principles.

I knew this was about Jesus coming.
That matches the raw concepts that come in pure essence independent of language.
Trying to match the meanings to the best way to say it is like charades or translating to a second or third language. I know it is right when it makes sense and means the same to both me and others, like singing in tune.

If it isn't matching up, I ask help for a better way to say it.

So that is where I started translating God/Christ Jesus/Holy Spirit into real world terms. But it depends on context.

By equating Jesus with Justice this makes more sense, in terms of God's Justice always being with God in heaven, but sent down into our world in incarnated form so we go through a resolution process, turning injustice back into true justice to make peace. This equates to Jesus returning with the Holy Spirit.

The IDEAS came from a sudden epiphany or revelation that everything in the Bible has a meaning and it is all true.

Starting from that sudden rebirth/awakening it has been 30 years of trial and error, sharing with different people, learning how to express this process which I see as both individual as well as collective, as each of us coming to spiritual maturity in receiving God's Truth Justice and Peace. Same process as in the Bible collectively, while I was experiencing this spiritually on my own, while recognizing this was what it means to reconcile my will with God's will through Christ.

 

[Emily Nghiem]

Stopped reading at the words present as established. It has already been established that Christ is God in the flesh. That is not something anyone needs to establish. What motivates me is the truth not some projection of my own insecurities. The reason I come accross as bold is because I am confronting the spiritual forces of deception not people.

Yes we agree in spirit.
Though the wording you use works for the context YOU intend,
but not in the context of audiences like @Wrangler

To convey the same meaning YOU intend
would require rewording it so
it means the same thing in @Wrangler's perception

I can switch back and forth, and get what you mean, and what @Wrangler means

It seems clear you are each framing this from your own angle, which is different enough that you see conflicts between these and both see the other person as being off track.

From how I see you, you are both right by your own context and intent.

Your two contexts don't match, so putting your phrases/wording into @Wrangler's perspective doesn't work, nor putting His responses into your context doesn't either!

 

[Emily Nghiem]

Don't know if you noticed, this is a debate forum.

Yes and debating positions does
NOT need to involve making PERSONAL judgments statements or assumptions about
the PEOPLE.
Only the content,
or source of bias influencing content.

If you @Wrangler or others go into additional conclusions about people,
that is where I question projected biases.

Particularly aimed at people!

If certain people or groups are the source of your biases AGAINST them,
personally conditioning your answers, changing this bias toward others can change your way of answering.

If you already forgive people, i.e., include/respect groups equally,
you may still carry biases or preferences in your answers WITHOUT added conditions assumptions or remarks addressing PEOPLE.