Scriptures that trinitarians Don't Want You to Know About - #5, Book of Acts

[DPMartin]

Dear @DPMartin and @theefaith
More specifically the JW
* call the Holy Spirit God's active force (instead of Comforter) by citing the force of God over the waters and saying that is the Holy Spirit.
* they call MICHAEL as Jesus due to authority to declare judgment which they argue can only be Jesus

When I looked up what Michael represents, this is a symbol of God's MERCY

That is closer to the Holy Spirit
than it is to Jesus

My guess is since they have supplanted the Holy Spirit by calling it something else, God's active force which isn't a person,
they are somehow replacing that part with MICHAEL they associate closely as one with Jesus.

Since God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit are One,
They are inserting Michael in with the Holy Spirit as one with Jesus.

When I talk with JW, I just imagine this is how they are mapping out and associating the meanings of the Father Son and Holy Spirit.

This reflects where they are divided from Christians and not calling the same things by the same names.

But Michael means Mercy, so this blending of Jesus with what should be the Holy Spirit
is taking the place of connecting Jesus with God.

The JW are more like righteous gentiles so it makes sense they focus locally on their fellowship and are disjoint from the bigger picture joining all church believers with God through Christ.

God has segregated them for His reasons and seasons. Not a cult but the more accurate term is "cultic."

thanks for the response, yea have had a few discussions with JW's, its shame really, most are nice people.

if my memory serves there's a subtle but grave difference in the translation they use and say, KJV, in the first chapter of the Gospel according to John. which seems to allow in their minds this theology they go by in relation to who or what Jesus is. the thing is, it disregards the rest of what the bible says even their translation.

its been my experience with JW's they seem to take the out of context to a higher level then most do. in the 70's for instance they insisted that they were the 144,000 mentioned in revelations. and common sense would tell anyone else, the JW's are much more than 144,000 in number. once that ran its course they have seemed to drop it by the 80's. so it seems kingdom halls are just for people to group together.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Many times the Bible identifies God as the Father. Not once God the Son ... The More You Know ...

The bible declares Jesus is God. the bible declares Jesus is god the Fathers' son- Hence God the Son.

Jesus is the only being in the universe that is both God and Man!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So, you are unaware that Joseph, the baby, got a double share?

Well which Joseph are you reffering to and why a double share? Can't get more than all.

 

[teamventure]

Yes we agree in spirit.
Though the wording you use works for the context YOU intend,
but not in the context of audiences like @Wrangler

To convey the same meaning YOU intend
would require rewording it so
it means the same thing in @Wrangler's perception

I can switch back and forth, and get what you mean, and what @Wrangler means

It seems clear you are each framing this from your own angle, which is different enough that you see conflicts between these and both see the other person as being off track.

From how I see you, you are both right by your own context and intent.

Your two contexts don't match, so putting your phrases/wording into @Wrangler's perspective doesn't work, nor putting His responses into your context doesn't either!

I see what you mean. Perhaps a message board is a confusing place to debate core doctrine. Thanks for understanding.
Oh and I have no grudge towards you or Wrangler. We walk in forgiveness.

 

[teamventure]

Yes and debating positions does
NOT need to involve making PERSONAL judgments statements or assumptions about
the PEOPLE.
Only the content,
or source of bias influencing content.

If you @Wrangler or others go into additional conclusions about people,
that is where I question projected biases.

Particularly aimed at people!

If certain people or groups are the source of your biases AGAINST them,
personally conditioning your answers, changing this bias toward others can change your way of answering.

If you already forgive people, i.e., include/respect groups equally,
you may still carry biases or preferences in your answers WITHOUT added conditions assumptions or remarks addressing PEOPLE.

My only bias is that Jesus is God.

 

[Gregory]

Emily, I once thought divine meant heavenly, as in, this cake is divine. Under this concept, angels are divine. However, I've since learned that divine is not a synonym with heavenly but God, which I take as the one and only Father. So, given that "divine" exclusively means the LORD God Adonai, and not merely heavenly beings, in my system Jesus is NOT divine.

Jesus is an heir of God and in Hebrews 1:2 it says that Jesus is heir of all things. That is, all things that the Father has. Since the Father has divinity, Jesus is now divine.

And here is the interesting scripture: Romans 8:7 says that we being children of God, are heirs of all things the Father has too. Joint heirs with Christ in all things. Therefore we too will be divine, if we live as we are supposed to and do what we are told by the Lord to do. Is that going to be interesting?

 

[Gregory]

Whoever translated the word to NOT be worship was mistaken.

Was it a common practice for Israel to worhip their kings? NO! So the mistake is to use the word worship in any context when referring to obesience to the king.

You are trying to make a point and you went searching through the translations until you found a couple that used worship instead of obesience, and were you surprised and happy, because now you could try to pull the wool over the eyes of the dumb and show that others were worshipped beside Jesus and this making the worship of Jesus not so important.

And although there were times when people worshipped the Son, he taught that the Father is the one to be worshipped. There are some scriptures that do have Jesus forbidding people to worship him.

Jesus is the Son of God, the only begotten of the Father, and is an heir of all that the Father has, even his divinity. They are separate and distinct individuals, that is how one can be in heaven and one on the earth at exactly the same time.

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus is an heir of God

So are we.

we have been reborn into a living hope— 4 reborn for an eternal inheritance, held in reserve in heaven, that will never fade or fail.
1 Peter 1:3-4

 

[Wrangler]

Was it a common practice for Israel to worhip their kings?

Irrelevant. Fact is, David, Daniel & Nebuchadnezzar were all men who were worshipped according to Scripture, the Word of God.

 

[post]

focused on the Book of Acts

you are dying, pierced by The Sword.
you need medicine:

shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood
Acts 20:28​

Christ is God

 

[kcnalp]

Revelation 1:8 (NKJV)
8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
Revelation 1:17-18 (NKJV)
17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.

18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore.
Yep, that's Jesus!

Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
Revelation 2:8 (NKJV)
8 "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write, 'These things says the First and the Last,

who was dead, and came to life:
Yep, that's Jesus!

Revelation 2:18-23 (NKJV)
18 "And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write, 'These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass:

The Son of God? Yep, that's Jesus! The Almighty? Yep that's Jesus!

 

[Emily Nghiem]

Emily, you speak of a different view of Law, a physical-community-based view, and then superimpose it on this subject, Biblical Law. I cannot reconcile your words with scripture and my beliefs at this point.

Christ did not renew the Spirit of Restorative Justice so we live as equal children of our One Father in Heaven. This is a strange and vague statement to me. And equal in what way?

Yahshua fulfilled the OT Law(s) and the Prophets - both the moral and ceremonial laws by his perfect sinless life and his sacrificed death. He became our High priest. He also became both our Redeemer and Savior.

We are under the Law of Christ today (Gal 6:2)

The Old Law had an expiration date and has now past. It also was the shadow as the imperfect Law that could never please God. It looked forward to the day of being perfected, in the Christ. Christ built upon this OT Law system and he became its perfection or and completion for us.

The term that you used 'Restorative Justice,' does imply an impersonal and community based form of repairing wrongs based on human standards and processes. Christ came to restore our standing with his Father - with the standard of perfection. For those that believe in him and possess his Spirit today, they are INDIVIDUALLY healed and not communally healed along with non-believers for example who do not wish to know the real Christ. He healed only true believers who believe in the one gospel of the narrow path to life, and not the wide religious 100 lane highway. It is a personal individual cleansing of sin and restoration with the Father.

The 10 Commandment for example, are geared to an individual and not to a collective or community. (You shall, as in singular and personal Tu, not community - Vous) And in the New Jerusalem, the 'City of Light' there is equality in drinking for the Tree of Life there. However, there is inequality in rewards given to each in the Kingdom. These are based on Christ's system of righteousness and not on any human, earth-based form of justice. It is Spiritual Law and not of any physical, constitutional, or of any ideology or political persuasion.

The Law(s) of Christ is really the Father's Law of righteousness, written in each believer's heart.

APAK

Equal as in the love of God is unconditional.
We are forgiven as we forgive others.
This law applies equally to all.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

begotten NOT made no created

Begotten means brought into being or existence. Mo•no•ge•nes', from mo'nos, meaning “only,” and gi'no•mai, a root word meaning “to generate,” “to become (come into being),” states Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance.

 

[Wrangler]

shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood
Acts 20:28
Christ is God

The church of God ≠ Church of the Son.

Jesus is not God.

 

[Wrangler]

Acts 18
v 9 One night, in a vision, the Lord said to Sha’ul, “Don’t be afraid, but speak right up, and don’t stop
v 5 Sha’ul felt pressed by the urgency of the message and testified in depth to the Jews that Yeshua is the Messiah.

Paul was in direct contact with the Lord Jesus and did not preach he was God incarnate because Jesus is the Messiah not God incarnate.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The church of God ≠ Church of the Son.

Jesus is not God.

Here- He is not the Father.

But here:

John 1:1
King James Version

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 5:18
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

He is!!!!!!

Jesus is not god the Father- He is God the Son.

 

[Emily Nghiem]

Acts 18
v 9 One night, in a vision, the Lord said to Sha’ul, “Don’t be afraid, but speak right up, and don’t stop
v 5 Sha’ul felt pressed by the urgency of the message and testified in depth to the Jews that Yeshua is the Messiah.

Paul was in direct contact with the Lord Jesus and did not preach he was God incarnate because Jesus is the Messiah not God incarnate.

Not God as in the infinite Creator,
But God as in God's perfect will laws WORD and justice embodied in man.

I relate most to Jesus in terms of authority of law and Justice to apply to secular gentiles under natural laws.

I understand a lot more people like JW who do not see Jesus as God reject Christians who teach this.

I believe both folds are governed by Jesus as the One Lord over all laws.

So I equally understand what people mean by the Trinity, and what they mean and don't mean.

And also understand what people mean, and don't mean, by objecting to how this is taught.

Over and over again, I hear one side say
But what you said sounds contrary to this.
And the other side says either
But that isn't what I mean
And what you said sounds contrary to that.

Am I the only one here okay with
each person seeing and saying this in different ways?

And trusting it's the same God
that we may express in different ways.

The differences just tell me to be more careful and talk with each person where we understand the same terms that mean the same things, so it does NOT cause this confusion!

 

[Wrangler]

Not God as in the infinite Creator,
But God as in God's perfect will laws WORD and justice embodied in man.

God is not embodied. 1 John 4:12

Even worse, you are using "God" to mean contradictory things, even different parts of speech; a being, attributes of that being. Not the same.

 

[kcnalp]

God is not embodied. 1 John 4:12

Which is referring to God the Father, not the Son.

Even worse, you are using "God" to mean contradictory things, even different parts of speech; a being, attributes of that being. Not the same.

YOU are the one who called God a liar. Pity you on Judgment Day!

 

[Wrangler]

Which is referring to God the Father, not the Son.

'For us, there is one God, The Father.' 1 Cor 8:6