See if this helps you understand salvation…

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skypair

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Adam was created innocent in the presence of God and good while knowing no evil. When Adam sinned (and when we sin), we know evil in our minds and desire evil in our hearts thereby turning away from God and good.
We, on the other hand, are born innocent in the presence of man and evil while knowing nothing of God and good. When we sin, we know evil in our minds and desire evil in our hearts (very important).

Now when Adam or we come to God, we remember/know God and the standard of good in our minds and, if we repent in our hearts desiring good rather than evil — truth rather than lies — God gives us His Spirit of God and good (His righteousness) so that with our hearts, our souls, we know only God and good, 1Jn 3:9. Though our minds may still remember evil and perform evil, it is not our/the Spirit's desire in us to do evil anymore.

The main thing to realize is that salvation engages both our minds (spirits) and our hearts (souls). Changing our minds about God and assuming that He has sovereignly accomplished His salvation in you all by Himself is the lie that your mind continues to believe if you have not repented receiving Him into your heart.

skypair
 
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bbyrd009

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it is an eye opener to see that the spirit is termed "male," while the soul is termed "female," and that the Book presents Eve as having come "out of Adam," which we of course initially read as a mythology about two different people, but may also be understood as an analogy of ourselves, spirit and soul.
 

Jun2u

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Unfortunately, your kind of salvation is a man made salvation!
One can repent all day long and everyday for the rest of his life, and it will not bring him closer to salvation. One can believe, or accept, or confess Jesus (or whatever man does), and it will NOT bring him one iota closer to salvation.
God brings home this point when He declared in Romans 3 “There is none righteous no not one, there is none that do good, and there is none that seeks after God, no not one! God insists in Jeremiah 17 that the heart of man is desperately wicked!
If the above is God’s assessment of the human race, who do you know that will repent and ask Jesus to come into his life as you’ve said? N-o-n-e!
As a matter of fact, Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3 “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Can anyone, in and of himself, make himself to be born again? Again, none! Only God can make anyone to be born again (John 1:13).
The Salvation plan of God is very complex and not readily understood especially to those of non-OSAS and non-believers.


To God Be The Glory
 

StanJ

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Jun2u said:
Unfortunately, your kind of salvation is a man made salvation!
One can repent all day long and everyday for the rest of his life, and it will not bring him closer to salvation. One can believe, or accept, or confess Jesus (or whatever man does), and it will NOT bring him one iota closer to salvation.
God brings home this point when He declared in Romans 3 “There is none righteous no not one, there is none that do good, and there is none that seeks after God, no not one! God insists in Jeremiah 17 that the heart of man is desperately wicked!
If the above is God’s assessment of the human race, who do you know that will repent and ask Jesus to come into his life as you’ve said? N-o-n-e!
As a matter of fact, Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3 “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Can anyone, in and of himself, make himself to be born again? Again, none! Only God can make anyone to be born again (John 1:13).
The Salvation plan of God is very complex and not readily understood especially to those of non-OSAS and non-believers.
To God Be The Glory
That is not his kind of salvation, it is biblical salvation. Romans 10:9-11. God doesn't make anybody saved, he grants them salvation through his son if they recognize and accept his son as their lord and savior.
John 3:16-18 is basic soteriology 101.
OSAS and any other petal of the T.U.L.I.P. Doctrine is false teaching. Understanding that is what brings Glory to God.
 

Heb 13:8

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Jun2u said:
Unfortunately, your kind of salvation is a man made salvation!
One can repent all day long and everyday for the rest of his life, and it will not bring him closer to salvation. One can believe, or accept, or confess Jesus (or whatever man does), and it will NOT bring him one iota closer to salvation.
God brings home this point when He declared in Romans 3 “There is none righteous no not one, there is none that do good, and there is none that seeks after God, no not one! God insists in Jeremiah 17 that the heart of man is desperately wicked!
If the above is God’s assessment of the human race, who do you know that will repent and ask Jesus to come into his life as you’ve said? N-o-n-e!
As a matter of fact, Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3 “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Can anyone, in and of himself, make himself to be born again? Again, none! Only God can make anyone to be born again (John 1:13).
The Salvation plan of God is very complex and not readily understood especially to those of non-OSAS and non-believers.


To God Be The Glory
Non-osas understands that they are saved by grace through faith, but they don't understand that grace keeps them saved. Jesus actually didn't die for all sins, only past sins. Horrible doctrine.
 

justaname

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63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
64 But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." - John 6:63-65

God grants who comes to Jesus...


correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, - 2 Timothy 2:25

God grants repentenance...


looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. - Hebrews 12:2

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, - Ephesians 2:8

God grants faith...


And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. - Acts 13:48

For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, - Philippians 1:29

God grants belief...
 

bbyrd009

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yes, as in "faith," but your "beliefs" are your own, and do not need to mirror anyone else's.
notice that God also grants suffering, iow, in the same passage.

Ephesians 2
22And in Him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
 

StanJ

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Jesus said "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up on the last day.'' (John 6:44). Many refer to this verse in an effort to support a man-made doctrine which says that only those whom the Lord "calls'' in some mystical way can be saved. They will say that this calling is some sort of direct operation of the Spirit. Calvinism teaches that man is totally passive and cannot do anything until God zaps him with some special anointing, thereby enabling him to believe. Such an idea is foreign to the scriptures.
Our Lord does draw people to Him, and no one can come to the Lord apart from God's drawing power. But this is not a matter of God electing to save some of us and condemn others of us arbitrarily. Consider: God wants all to be saved, and the reason some are lost is not because God has unconditionally chosen them to be.
For Whom Does God Desire Salvation?
The good news is that God does not desire anyone to be lost. No one! God is "...patient, not wishing for any to perish." (II Peter 3:9). God is "compassionate" (Matthew 9:36; Psalm 86:15) God is "...just" (Romans 3:24-26). God is "Sorrowful" that many are lost (Ezekiel 18:23; 31,32; cf. Matthew 23:37). To suggest that man cannot respond to God's gospel apart from a special anointing or calling that God gives to them that He does not give to all others makes God responsible for the lost being lost. But that does not fit with the Biblical description of God's character and nature.
God made salvation available to all. Salvation is available for all men, not just a select few. Jesus died for everyone (Hebrews 2:9; John 3:16). God wants all to come to know the truth (I Timothy 2:4). The invitation is open to all, 24 hours a day. There's no such thing as waiting on God's "special call.'' (Matthew 11:28-30; Revelation 22:17). He has already issued His call, and it has gone out unto the whole world. Any of us can choose to answer it, or not.
How God Draws People Unto Himself
The context of Jesus' statement explains how God draws men and women to Himself. There is nothing mystical about it. The following verse in the context (John 6:45) reveals how God draws men unto Himself. "It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught of God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me." Note the words "taught" and "every man" (all drawn the same way; by being taught) and "hear" and "learn" and "come". These are not mystical words. They are common, everyday words which are used to describe how it is that people are drawn to Christ.
What is it that is taught and heard and learned? The means or method by which God "calls'' or "draws'' all men is the Gospel. "And it was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." (II Thessalonians 2:14). There is no special, mystical anointing of the Holy Spirit, but rather, the Holy Spirit calls men through the gospel; and it is the gospel that is the power (Romans 1:16).
God draws people unto Himself through the teaching of the gospel. The preaching of the gospel is God's power, his drawing power, to save (I Corinthians 1:18-21). Therefore, all people, when they hear the gospel, at any moment, have the ability to respond to God's gospel call. They also have the ability to reject it (Acts 13:45-48).
Sinners are saved by God's grace when they respond in faithful obedience to the gospel that draws them to God (Matthew 7:21). God is always ready for men to repent and obey (Acts 17:30). It is those who will do so that God has predestined for salvation (1 Thessalonians 5:9). This is an important concept to recognize. God has not predestined individuals to be saved or lost, but rather, has predestined the method by which we are saved. If we obey the gospel, we are baptized "into Christ" (Romans 6:3,4). God has predestined all those "in Christ" to be "blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places" (Ephesians 1:3). But it is up to us as to whether we will obey or not.
How To Be Drawn To God's Son And Be Saved
There are not many ways to be drawn to God. In fact, there is only one way to come to the Father (John 14:6). One cannot get to heaven through Jesus apart from obeying Him (Hebrews 5:9). Those who attempt to enter another way are counted as thieves and robbers and will be unsuccessful (John 10:1).
How does one answer God's call? This is important for you to know because God is calling you. Have you answered? If not, will you? Will you call upon Him? For whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved." (Acts 2:21). The people who heard this wanted to know how to do so (Acts 2:37) They were told "Repent and be baptized, everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38). Men must believe and obey (Mark 16:16). Saving faith is alive, not dead, and proves itself by obedience to the gospel. The gospel is God's call to us by which we are drawn to Him. Our obedient faith needs to be the answer we give His call.

By Jon W. Quinn
From Expository Files 7.1; January 2000
 

bbyrd009

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nice. Not to get into a "what is the Gospel?" thread, as i notice there are like a quarter million of them on google, mostly all yack imo, but i'm not sure the Gospel can be "preached," the way we understand that term these days, anyway. Maybe, but i wonder if a better def is not "Shown, demonstrated, lived as an example" etc.

So, i see this "they shall all be taught of God" (from Isaiah, i believe) immediately associated with our accepted Christian approach to salvation, and while it is never directly stated, it seems to be intimated at "But it is up to us as to whether we will obey or not.
How To Be Drawn To God's Son And Be Saved
There are not many ways to be drawn to God. In fact, there is only one way" etc, and also where teaching gets turned into "preaching," up there,
"God draws people unto Himself through the teaching of the gospel. The preaching of the gospel is God's power..."

which seems to me to be at some tension with

10But this is the covenant
that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be My people.m
11And each person will not teach his fellow citizen,n
and each his brother, saying, “Know the Lord,”
because they will all know Me,
from the least to the greatest of them.o
12For I will be merciful to their wrongdoing,
and I will never again remember their sins.p, q, r

13By saying, a new covenant, He has declared that the first is old. And what is old and aging is about to disappear.

not that there isn't a place for preaching, too, but it is not the only way, and likely not even the best way, not that i blame a preacher for making this case, or even that it is incorrect, in context.
 

justaname

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Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says "Jesus is accursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except in the Holy Spirit. - 1 Corinthians 12:3

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:14

22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom,
23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles,
24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. - 1 Corinthians 1:22-24


Without the Spirit none can confess Jesus as Lord.
But to those who are called...Christ is the power and wisdom of God.

I like how the NASB renders the 1 Cor 1:24 including the article in the translation.
but to those who are the called, (emphasis on "the called", similar to the elected) both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Cf Romans 8:28
 

StanJ

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A. The Bible teaches predestination, but not Calvinistic Predestination:

Bible predestination is where God pre-determined, not the identity of the saved, but the character of the saved
We are not opposed to predestination, for the Bible teaches it. However, Calvin's view of predestination is entirely unbiblical and therefore false doctrine.
What is foreknown by God in these Bible Verses

Personal Identity?

Character, purpose & plan?

Eph 1:3-4

1 Cor 2:7

Rom 8:29-30

B. God is not a respecter of persons: Acts 10:34; Rom 2:11-12; 1 Pe 1:17

C. God does not will that any perish but all be saved: Tit 2:11; 1 Ti 2:3-4; 2 Pe 3:9

D. Makes the Devil no enemy for the saved to worry about, if predestined 1 Pe 5:8 Why beware?

E. Our eternal destiny (heaven or hell) is based entirely upon personal choices we make based upon our own freewill. If we end up in hell, we can only blame ourselves!

Excerpted from Bible.ca
 

bbyrd009

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nice! i don't think it is possible to end up in hell, "all go to the same place," and an examination of hell as we understand it proves it to be as nebulous as many other mainstream Christian ideas, but i like the sentiment regardless. We reap what we sow, iow.
 

Jun2u

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As I’ve stated in my post above, the Salvation plan of God is very complex and not readily understood, and if I might add, is sometimes hidden. Take John 3:16-18, for instance.
The word “so” in verse 16 can be translated “in this manner” or “thus,” and the word “whosoever” cannot mean anyone. It must be qualified.
How did God love the world? In this manner that He gave His only Son.
The word “whosoever” are those whom the Father gave to Jesus (John 6:37). If this is not so then the Father is lying to us for the Scriptures declare, “And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.” So we see it cannot just be anyone!
According to Romans 3 no one has the ability or the power to believe or confess Jesus (Romans 10:9-11) unless he first become born again, and there is none that can make himself to be born again.
I don’t have to defend the doctrine of the OSAS because I believe the acronym speaks for itself. Let it suffice that when a saved person dies his body goes into the grave like any other unsaved person, the only difference is that in his spirit/soul essence, he goes to be with Christ in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8).


To God Be The Glory
 

farouk

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Jun2u said:
As I’ve stated in my post above, the Salvation plan of God is very complex and not readily understood, and if I might add, is sometimes hidden. Take John 3:16-18, for instance.
The word “so” in verse 16 can be translated “in this manner” or “thus,” and the word “whosoever” cannot mean anyone. It must be qualified.
How did God love the world? In this manner that He gave His only Son.
The word “whosoever” are those whom the Father gave to Jesus (John 6:37). If this is not so then the Father is lying to us for the Scriptures declare, “And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.” So we see it cannot just be anyone!
According to Romans 3 no one has the ability or the power to believe or confess Jesus (Romans 10:9-11) unless he first become born again, and there is none that can make himself to be born again.
I don’t have to defend the doctrine of the OSAS because I believe the acronym speaks for itself. Let it suffice that when a saved person dies his body goes into the grave like any other unsaved person, the only difference is that in his spirit/soul essence, he goes to be with Christ in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8).


To God Be The Glory
John 3.16 is indeed a wonderful summary of the Gospel: salvation is a work which God does for the sinner! and it's by faith. Divine sovereignty and human responsibility are both involved.
 
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bbyrd009

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the only difference is that in his spirit/soul essence, he goes to be with Christ in heaven
but of course there is no place called heaven, so this analogy can be fraught with misunderstanding. Samuel assured Saul that Saul and his sons would be there, with him, where he was, by the end of the conflict (through the Witch of Endor). And Samuel must be considered a proxy for "accepted," while Saul and sons, for "rejected," in any contemplation of the parable imo.
 

bbyrd009

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farouk said:
Revelation 21 speaks of heaven.
well, i don't mean that heaven is not real, but that it is not material, it is a state of being, the kingdom is right beside one at any time, etc. Understand I AM, essentially.

if you are waiting for heaven to start in some as yet unrealized, future place--that, incidentally, someone has "pointed at" for you, for us--then, regardless of the prevalence of this view ("the wide way," possibly), one owes it to themselves to at least contemplate a change of mind there imo. Not denying that things will be different in some as yet unknown future, however, understand--this is a given.

The point is, perhaps, "don't live there; today is enough, Understand I AM," etc. "Tomorrow People," Bob Marley, like that. "You question how the future lies, in someone's eyes," DByrne's condemnation of eschatology.