Ya I guess I don't believe the rapture being secret either, but the reason I don't believe in the vanishing part is because I believe the rapture is the martyrdom of the church until the catching up into the sky to meet Christ (the most vanishingist part) though I believe even the catching up part will be physical and literal along with the transformation or whatever that occurs when the dead and living are raised. I guess I'm more of a literal Mid Tribulationist/Pre Wrather. Pre Wrath, except with Christians still dying and all, everyone wins!
Seven Years of Tribulation,
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Hi Martin, Your words:"but the reason I don't believe in the vanishing part is because I believe the rapture is the martyrdom of the church until the catching up into the sky to meet Christ.."
I'm not sure what you mean by that. The 5th seal shows the 70th week martyrs under the altar but to me this is just further evidence of Paul's teaching, "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". Our spirits go to heaven when we die. Martyrdom just brings them to a different location in heaven then the rest of us, imo.
I'm not sure what you mean by that. The 5th seal shows the 70th week martyrs under the altar but to me this is just further evidence of Paul's teaching, "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". Our spirits go to heaven when we die. Martyrdom just brings them to a different location in heaven then the rest of us, imo.
I guess I believe in an exception with the martyrs within End Time history, specifically the last generation before the tribulation. All of this having to do with the dead being raised in Christ and the living in Christ being raised after. I kinda believe how you do when a Christian dies he is there in Spirit immediately with the Lord. But I think that would leave no one to meet him in the air concerning this event in time. There's that mystery, not all of us will sleep, but we shall all be changed. Which I believe is revealed in the difference between end time martyrs and those who don't become martyred before the catching up part of the end time of the rapture.
When Jesus calls someone asleep I believe it is because their spirit still rests in their earthly body however it's state, deceased in this case. Lazerus was just sleeping because his ministry in his earthly body was not over. Same with most cases where God doesn't simply pronounce someone "dead".
When Jesus calls someone asleep I believe it is because their spirit still rests in their earthly body however it's state, deceased in this case. Lazerus was just sleeping because his ministry in his earthly body was not over. Same with most cases where God doesn't simply pronounce someone "dead".
Hi Martin, Your words: "But I think that would leave no one to meet him in the air concerning this event in time."
Yes, there will be a lot of martyrs but imo, the majority will still be alive to "meet Him in the air". Those who have already died, will be re-united with their physical bodies, but those bodies will become as Christ's body was, glorified, uncorruptible and immortal.
Yes, there will be a lot of martyrs but imo, the majority will still be alive to "meet Him in the air". Those who have already died, will be re-united with their physical bodies, but those bodies will become as Christ's body was, glorified, uncorruptible and immortal.
Anyone? Can any of you rapturists answer why God seems to have made a special gospel just for you?
What makes you more precious to God than his son or the first church who were fed to the Lions. Or even the end time witnesses that will be killed and laid in the street of spiritual Sodom and Egypt? What is it that makes all of you rapture people different from the rest in Gods sight?
7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,
With your last point Trekson I think I agree, though isn't it kinda hard to know at this point how many martyrs there will be? Hard to say when things start getting heated in the world. I'm surprised Son of Man hasn't latched on to my theory, I think it covers his basis for most of why he doesn't like pre wrath rapture. Because he brings up a good point, why would God let us vanish when we could let us be more like Christ? Did Christ vanish when the times were toughest or during the heaviest of persecution? That is one aspect to my theory of martyrdom and Christians in the rapture.
When you look at the previous types of anti Christs, usually genocide was a part of their theology, however that has been directed at Jews for a large part. It has always been easy to blame Jews or Christians for lacking in relationship to God, because the Jews were God's chosen intrument for salvation and so now are we. Now when our bringing of the gospel to the nations is complete, and so the gathering of the Jews is complete, persecution should then no longer be needed to spread the gospel, and if we're so called "locked in" to the end times, then I don't see why a mass genocide of Christians is an unreasonable picture in the course of coming events.
When you look at the previous types of anti Christs, usually genocide was a part of their theology, however that has been directed at Jews for a large part. It has always been easy to blame Jews or Christians for lacking in relationship to God, because the Jews were God's chosen intrument for salvation and so now are we. Now when our bringing of the gospel to the nations is complete, and so the gathering of the Jews is complete, persecution should then no longer be needed to spread the gospel, and if we're so called "locked in" to the end times, then I don't see why a mass genocide of Christians is an unreasonable picture in the course of coming events.
revturmoil
New Member
Christians have been severly indoctrinated into the belief that the men of sin would come from within the church and that he (the false prophet or anti-christ) would come in the literal name of Jesus. The biblical anti-christ is probably the Islamic dajjal. The false prophet is probably the Mahdi or the Muslim jesus.
He will not come claiming to be Israel's Messiah.
There's not one verse that say's we go to heaven when we die. To say that contradicts the resurrection.
You can try to post one but you would be the first!
Kaotic, The resurrection is just the spirits of those who have already died, being re-united with their physical bodies, but those bodies will become as Christ's body was, glorified, uncorruptible and immortal.
som & Martin, som's words:"What makes you more precious to God than his son or the first church who were fed to the Lions. Or even the end time witnesses that will be killed and laid in the street of spiritual Sodom and Egypt? What is it that makes all of you rapture people different from the rest in Gods sight."
I believe Rev. 13:7-10 is speaking of the church. I believe Rev. 12:17 is speaking of the church. I believe Matt. 24:21 is for the church. I believe the 5th seal martyr's are from the church during the great trib of satan's wrath. I could be wrong, there may be more martyr's than living at the rapture/resurrection. Christ said, for the sake of the elect He cuts the time short or no flesh (living christians, imo) would be saved. The rapture isn't just for those who believe in it, it's for everyone, the pre-tribbers, the post-tribbers and the pre-wrathers. We're not different, we're just the last. The christians that will be killed, jailed, hounded, etc. will be in the hundreds of millions world-wide. It's not a rescue or escape from hardship, it's simply the promise of God as found in three verses.
John 14:2-3 - "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
[sup]3 [/sup]And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."
Where is Christ now? He's in heaven and He is taking us where He is!
Luke 21:28 - "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."
Whether you're pre, post or prewrath, our redemption is the same. We just see it coming at different times and in different ways. Imo, our redemption is the pre-wrath rapture.
1Thes. 1:10 - "[sup] [/sup]And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."
1Thes. 5:9 - "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."
Our salvation/redemption is via rapture, imo. The trumpets are the wrath of the Lamb and the vials are the wrath of God. Imo, the church won't be here for either because of the above two scriptures.
som & Martin, som's words:"What makes you more precious to God than his son or the first church who were fed to the Lions. Or even the end time witnesses that will be killed and laid in the street of spiritual Sodom and Egypt? What is it that makes all of you rapture people different from the rest in Gods sight."
I believe Rev. 13:7-10 is speaking of the church. I believe Rev. 12:17 is speaking of the church. I believe Matt. 24:21 is for the church. I believe the 5th seal martyr's are from the church during the great trib of satan's wrath. I could be wrong, there may be more martyr's than living at the rapture/resurrection. Christ said, for the sake of the elect He cuts the time short or no flesh (living christians, imo) would be saved. The rapture isn't just for those who believe in it, it's for everyone, the pre-tribbers, the post-tribbers and the pre-wrathers. We're not different, we're just the last. The christians that will be killed, jailed, hounded, etc. will be in the hundreds of millions world-wide. It's not a rescue or escape from hardship, it's simply the promise of God as found in three verses.
John 14:2-3 - "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
[sup]3 [/sup]And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."
Where is Christ now? He's in heaven and He is taking us where He is!
Luke 21:28 - "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."
Whether you're pre, post or prewrath, our redemption is the same. We just see it coming at different times and in different ways. Imo, our redemption is the pre-wrath rapture.
1Thes. 1:10 - "[sup] [/sup]And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."
1Thes. 5:9 - "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."
Our salvation/redemption is via rapture, imo. The trumpets are the wrath of the Lamb and the vials are the wrath of God. Imo, the church won't be here for either because of the above two scriptures.
revturmoil
New Member
This verse doesn't say we go to heaven when we die. Read it again! The verse states that when He returns we go there! Not before! This verse alone debunks your belief that we go to heaven 'before' the resurrection!
We go to paradise which is a place of rest in his presence.
Sorry but I just don't see anyone going to heaven when they die in Luke 21.
All that verse is saying is to wait for Christ whom God had raised from the dead and who delivered us from the 'wrath' to come. This isn't accomplished by a pre-wrath rapture!
We have to 'wait for his son from heaven' so that we can be delivered from the wrath to come. Jesus comes at the end of tribulation. Not a fabricated time before!
This verse also debunks pre-wrath because Christ comes at the end of tribulation, (which you have changed the meaning and timing of)
Thayer's say's...speaking of that day of wrath,
"The day on which the wrath of God will be made manifest in the punishment of the wicked."
I've told you before that the wrath we are not appointed to is not a tribulational wrath but the wrath that is averted by Christ through repentance!
You guys like to use this verse,
1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
But notice that the wrath we are not appointed to is due to salvation in Christ and nothing else!
Where is Heaven? Is Gods house in New Jerusalem? Is New Jerusalem the location of Gods temple and throne and is it also paradise? I think here are a few verses that would indicate they are all the same.
Christ says He is going to His Fathers house and that it has many rooms where the saints will live.
John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Christ tells the thief that today he would be with Christ in paradise which can be equated with God house.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Christ lives in heaven which equates to Gods House;
Philippians 3:20 ( NLT ) But we are citizens of heaven, where the Lord Jesus Christ lives. And we are eagerly waiting for him to return as our Savior.
Christ tells us that the tree of life is in paradise which means the tree of life is in Gods house.
Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
We are told that the tree of life is in the New Jerusalem.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
We are told that the Fathers House which is paradise and has the tree of life is in fact New Jerusalem which comes to earth.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
We are told that the tabernacle of God which includes his throne is in fact New Jerusalem.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
To me this provided pretty compelling evidence as to where God lives, where paradise is, where the tree of life is, that the temple of God exists in New Jerusalem and that New Jerusalem will come to earth and God will dwell with man and be their God.
In Yeshua Messiah,
Bob
1 Thus says the Lord: "Heaven is My throne, And earth is My footstool. Where is the house that you will build Me? And where is the place of My rest?
Heaven is everywhere above the earth because His feet are resting on the earth.
5 casting down imaginations, and every high thing that is exalted against the knowledge of God, and bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ;
Kaotic, Your words:"The verse states that when He returns we go there! Not before! This verse alone debunks your belief that we go to heaven 'before' the resurrection."
Heavy Sigh! The resurrection and rapture occur at the same time. The picture of Matt. 24:28-31 (the fulfillment of John 14:2) is one of His return to gather us to Himself and it goes hand in hand with 1Co. 15. These are pictures of the rapture, imo.
Your words:"This isn't accomplished by a pre-wrath rapture!" Yes, it is. We have to 'wait for his son from heaven' so that we can be delivered from the wrath to come. Jesus comes at the end of tribulation." I agree and it's the rapture that ends it, not the end of the 70th week.
Your words: "I've told you before that the wrath we are not appointed to is not a tribulational wrath but the wrath that is averted by Christ through repentance."
There is no "tribulational wrath". There is the great trib, rapture and the trumpets are the wrath of the Lamb and the vials are the wrath of God. The great trib and God's wrath are completely separate from each other.
Your words: "But notice that the wrath we are not appointed to is due to salvation in Christ and nothing else."
From the Strong's G4991, the def. of "salvation" (soteria) "is rescue or safety, either physically or morally." So considering a rapture via physical rescue is not out of line with this verse.
Saint, Imo, the NJ will come down after the millennium and every you say will come true at that time, but that doesn't mean we won't be able to enjoy it in heaven until the NJ comes down. It is for the perfected, raptured or resurrected man not the human residents of the millennial age.
Heavy Sigh! The resurrection and rapture occur at the same time. The picture of Matt. 24:28-31 (the fulfillment of John 14:2) is one of His return to gather us to Himself and it goes hand in hand with 1Co. 15. These are pictures of the rapture, imo.
Your words:"This isn't accomplished by a pre-wrath rapture!" Yes, it is. We have to 'wait for his son from heaven' so that we can be delivered from the wrath to come. Jesus comes at the end of tribulation." I agree and it's the rapture that ends it, not the end of the 70th week.
Your words: "I've told you before that the wrath we are not appointed to is not a tribulational wrath but the wrath that is averted by Christ through repentance."
There is no "tribulational wrath". There is the great trib, rapture and the trumpets are the wrath of the Lamb and the vials are the wrath of God. The great trib and God's wrath are completely separate from each other.
Your words: "But notice that the wrath we are not appointed to is due to salvation in Christ and nothing else."
From the Strong's G4991, the def. of "salvation" (soteria) "is rescue or safety, either physically or morally." So considering a rapture via physical rescue is not out of line with this verse.
Saint, Imo, the NJ will come down after the millennium and every you say will come true at that time, but that doesn't mean we won't be able to enjoy it in heaven until the NJ comes down. It is for the perfected, raptured or resurrected man not the human residents of the millennial age.
Trek a question; will there be anything impure existing on earth after the millennium when we live in the eternal kingdom? I think your answer will have to be....NO!
If that is the case why would Rev 21:27 make it clear that nothing unclean might enter into the New Jerusalem? The implication here is that unrighteousness still exists on earth which implies the millennium to me.
In Yeshua Messiah,
Bob
revturmoil
New Member
Son of Man wrote:
" Why Terry? What makes you more precious to God than his son or the first church who were fed to the Lions. Or even the end time witnesses that will be killed and laid in the street of spiritual Sodom and Egypt? What is it that makes all of you rapture people different from the rest in Gods sight? "
I am not sure where you determined I thought of myself as more precious than Jesus or this first chuirch or any church, or even near equal. If I wrote anyting that resembles that idea, then I am wrong and stand corrected. As far as the end-time witnesses, I will. for a time, not answer.
The need for the rapture is for believers who could not, if they wanted to... deny the Mark of the Beast.
According to (as far as I know) any theologian, they all place the raptureof the Christians happening all at once. But, I give this; the Rapture can be in the twinkling of an eye - yet at the speed but not all Christians are raptured nor at the same time... Why not rapture one here, another there, or several here and there, across say the entire time of tribulations? In this method, the rapture could be more readily concealed. - just a thought.
" Why Terry? What makes you more precious to God than his son or the first church who were fed to the Lions. Or even the end time witnesses that will be killed and laid in the street of spiritual Sodom and Egypt? What is it that makes all of you rapture people different from the rest in Gods sight? "
I am not sure where you determined I thought of myself as more precious than Jesus or this first chuirch or any church, or even near equal. If I wrote anyting that resembles that idea, then I am wrong and stand corrected. As far as the end-time witnesses, I will. for a time, not answer.
The need for the rapture is for believers who could not, if they wanted to... deny the Mark of the Beast.
According to (as far as I know) any theologian, they all place the raptureof the Christians happening all at once. But, I give this; the Rapture can be in the twinkling of an eye - yet at the speed but not all Christians are raptured nor at the same time... Why not rapture one here, another there, or several here and there, across say the entire time of tribulations? In this method, the rapture could be more readily concealed. - just a thought.
You can't even hear the question?
Your whole rapture theory, has a group of sinners, who give nothing more than mouth service to god, going to heaven to sit on gods throne with Him.
So the vanity of man gets to do all of that because they are better than the son of God, who was crucified. More loved by God than His apostles who were murdered for their testimony and higher than the first church who were beaten crucified and fed to hungry lions.
The truth of the matter is that none of you are going anywhere. Because there is no rapture and you will all panic and start killing each other when God takes His daily oblation away from you.
.
Hi Saint, This was brought up on another the thread and the point is I guess that we don't really have any idea of what it will be like after the millennium. There are still things that are unclear to all of us and, imo, it's a little early to worry about it. I believe what I believe but it ain't going to break my heart if I'm wrong. Time will tell.
Where in all of our Lord's Book of Revelation did He specifically give 3 Woe periods attached to anything else other than the last 3 Trumpets?
If you fail to understand that, then you will have a difficult time understanding that the 7 Trumpets all occur in order, like 1,2,3,4,5,6,7.
Then it's a simple matter of rightly dividing the timeline structure of the 5th Trumpet - 1st Woe period all the way to the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe period.
Apparently, because our Lord Jesus did attach 3 Woe periods with those last 3 trumpets and not with any of the other seals, trumpets or vials, then He was attaching special importance to the events of those last 3 trumpets.
You're mocking again. That's not going to help others to listen to what you have to say. It's nothing but speech clutter. And this time you've including LIBEL, because I've never attached any such, "thus saith the Lord" to what I've written here on this forum. So you just told a LIE. That's not going to help others to listen to what you have to say either.
No, that division in the middle of the one week of Dan.9:27 is... the only way to interpret it. Hebrew 'chetsiy' specifically is about a half, middle, two parts. It's even the Hebrew word used for 'mid' in 'midnight'. So the rest of what you said about it is irrelevant.
Dan 12:1
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
(KJV)
You're wrong again. That phrase "such as never was since there was a nation" is about the idea of ANY nation in general. It is NOT a specific pointer to the nation of Israel.
Now then, just who are Daniel's people per that? Definitely Israel. But WHICH Israel? Flesh seed only? Of course not, which is WHY... what our Lord Jesus taught about that event in His Olivet Discourse cannot simply be thrown out when interpreting that Dan.12:1 verse, which is obviously what you've wrongly... been taught to do.
You're doing that reveals something else too. It reveals how you're heeding men's doctrines instead of the simplicity of the Scripture as written. You've obviously got a 'that's the seed of Israel only' Dispensationalist type mentality going on there that by design is used to support the Pre-Wrath theory you're on. That kind of junk is not going to help you're Bible understanding.
This is getting tiresome. Read the Scripture again...
Rev 13:5-7
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
(KJV)
I'm not going to get into stupid arguments about what words like "continue" means. You've obviously got a HUGE problem with denying the coming tribulation God's Word has already said will be upon His Church here on earth just PRIOR to Christ's return.
(For others reading this: I really feel like I'm talking more to a Pre-Tribulational Rapture believer than somone who holds to the Pre-Wrath Rapture, which is an oxymoron term. How? The phrase 'pre-wrath' should only point to the position of Christ gathering His Church AFTER the tribulation but just PRIOR to His pouring out His cup of wrath upon the wicked at His return, and not a rapture prior to the Antichrist's time of tribulation upon the saints.)
Here's the same messages about that trib time upon the saints in Daniel as in Rev.13...
Dan 7:21-22
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
(KJV)
Dan 7:25-27
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
(KJV)
That part's true, there's two halves, two 1260 day periods with a division in the middle. It's the latter half that's about false messiah's reign though.
Problem is, the two witnesses being raised, the great earthquake in Jerusalem, 7,000 slain there, and Armageddon (day of The Lord timing) all occur with the space of that "same hour" Rev.11:13 verse mentions. If you look closely at the last Vial of Rev.16, that's the time of Armageddon, and Christ's return to gather us. Deeper study in the OT prophets helps cement that timeline understanding, because God said that final event of this present world on the day of the Lord will occur at an instant. How fast can you turn a bottle up-side down with its contents poured out? That's one of the ideas in Isaiah God used about that event that ends this world of today.
The "same hour" phrase in Rev.11:13 is given why? It's to show us that event though those events in Rev.11 leading up to our Lord's return are written in a spread out fashion, it doesn't mean a long time is required for those events to happen.
Hate to burst your bubble, but our Lord Jesus specifically said the time would be shortened for His elect's sake (Matt.24; Mark 13). We can still use the 7 years timeline to study the events, but the literal time has been shortened per our Lord Jesus.
Vet, Your words: "I'm not going to get into stupid arguments about what words like "continue" means. You've obviously got a HUGE problem with denying the coming tribulation God's Word has already said will be upon His Church here on earth just PRIOR to Christ's return.
(For others reading this: I really feel like I'm talking more to a Pre-Tribulational Rapture believer than somone who holds to the Pre-Wrath Rapture, which is an oxymoron term. How? The phrase 'pre-wrath' should only point to the position of Christ gathering His Church AFTER the tribulation but just PRIOR to His pouring out His cup of wrath upon the wicked at His return, and not a rapture prior to the Antichrist's time of tribulation upon the saints.)"
I thought you actually took the time to read what I write but apparently not. You just blather and speak nonsense and claim I teach the exact opposite of what I've been saying for months. The words in blue are what I have always said. I have NEVER claimed the words in red. The problem is you can't see His return as a two-part event, as the bible describes, NOT a singular event at Armageddon, which is nowhere implied, but you make up all these things that silences the word and puts your interpretation above God's, by utilizing false symbolism and spiritualizing things that should be taken literally. When I give you the "literal" interpretation of a verse and you turn around and say NO that's not what it means then you are implying, "thus saith the Lord". So, it's not a lie. You don't use phrases like "I believe" or "in my opinion". When you don't use them then yes, you are implying the above.
You also seem to have a hard time distinguishing tribulation from wrath and acknowledging the "time of Jacob's trouble" is on Israel, not the gentile church.
(For others reading this: I really feel like I'm talking more to a Pre-Tribulational Rapture believer than somone who holds to the Pre-Wrath Rapture, which is an oxymoron term. How? The phrase 'pre-wrath' should only point to the position of Christ gathering His Church AFTER the tribulation but just PRIOR to His pouring out His cup of wrath upon the wicked at His return, and not a rapture prior to the Antichrist's time of tribulation upon the saints.)"
I thought you actually took the time to read what I write but apparently not. You just blather and speak nonsense and claim I teach the exact opposite of what I've been saying for months. The words in blue are what I have always said. I have NEVER claimed the words in red. The problem is you can't see His return as a two-part event, as the bible describes, NOT a singular event at Armageddon, which is nowhere implied, but you make up all these things that silences the word and puts your interpretation above God's, by utilizing false symbolism and spiritualizing things that should be taken literally. When I give you the "literal" interpretation of a verse and you turn around and say NO that's not what it means then you are implying, "thus saith the Lord". So, it's not a lie. You don't use phrases like "I believe" or "in my opinion". When you don't use them then yes, you are implying the above.
You also seem to have a hard time distinguishing tribulation from wrath and acknowledging the "time of Jacob's trouble" is on Israel, not the gentile church.
The Pre-Trib Rapture school believes Christ's coming is a 2-part event. I do not, because no such 2-part event idea is written in God's Word.
So now, I'm actually starting to believe you're actually on the Pre-trib Rapture theory, and have been all along, but have come to here to SPREAD CONFUSION.
You are NOT going anywhere until the very LAST day of this present world. You, myself, and everyone else that doesn't die first WILL go through the coming tribulation our Lord Jesus taught. And then on the LAST DAY of this present world is when He will come to gather us, that's is IF you remain faithful to Him all the way unto that future time.
That is the SAME timing as the battle of Armageddon, and the 'change' at the 'twinkling of an eye' that Paul taught for the "last trump", and it is... the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe timing of Rev.11, all of which YOU deny so you can believe a LIE instead.
And it's obvious, ANYTHING one writes that disturbs those ideas of men you have, you don't like. Tough, I say! All that's going to do is make you look more foolish than you already have appeared.
I do NOT spiritualize anything in God's Word. God's usage of symbols and history as "ensamples" are NOT spiritualizations! Nor is the idea of God's Word using the titles of historical kings like the Assyrian for Satan a spiritualization.
What a spiritualization is, is doing things like you do, inferring that Christ returns TWICE like some bouncing ball up in sky! Your mentality is a product by those false prophets you listen to that have created that stupid idea in your mind, you didn't INVENT it. It was an idea of MEN long before you ever latched onto it!
And you are telling a LIE about not having that doctrine of being raptured prior to the Antichrist's tribulation. Lately you appear to be modifying that view a bit, by saying you're not going to be here but for a very short time right after the false messiah is setup. SAME THING, as that WRONGLY SUPPOSES to miss the latter half of Daniel's SYMBOLIC "one week" which is the time of the tribulation.
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