Seven Years of Tribulation,

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Trekson

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Hi Retro, Your words: "This whole thread so far has been an exercise in futility! Without some common ground upon which to build, you have no basis for argument."

Yeah, sometimes it does become an "exercise in futility" and that's when I "bow out" now and then only to return at a later date. Vet and I do have some "common ground". We both believe in Christ as our Lord and Savior, we both have a pre-millennial end-times belief and we both believe that a pre-trib rapture ain't going to happen, and we both believe the two witnesses will be literal men. After that, everything else is subjective, not just for us but for everyone (including pre-tribbers and those that don't have these four things in common).
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Trekson.

Hi Retro, Your words: "This whole thread so far has been an exercise in futility! Without some common ground upon which to build, you have no basis for argument."

Yeah, sometimes it does become an "exercise in futility" and that's when I "bow out" now and then only to return at a later date. Vet and I do have some "common ground". We both believe in Christ as our Lord and Savior, we both have a pre-millennial end-times belief and we both believe that a pre-trib rapture ain't going to happen, and we both believe the two witnesses will be literal men. After that, everything else is subjective, not just for us but for everyone (including pre-tribbers and those that don't have these four things in common).

Yeah, but I have those same four things in common with you and veteran, and it STILL feels like there's no true foundation on which to build. I just feel that we need to find more to agree upon before delving into what we have for disagreement. There are just too many things which must be qualified first before we can agree. Am I making sense to you?
 

Trekson

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Hi Retro, Your words:"There are just too many things which must be qualified first before we can agree. Am I making sense to you?"

Of course it makes sense but that seems to be the crux of the problem. In most cases "agreement" won't occur until prophecy becomes history. Unless you bring up specifics, what you want "qualified" will also, in most cases, be fodder for debate. As we all see things "differently", agreement isn't necessarily the goal but hopefully the good-hearted discussion that follows our differences is. Problems arise when folks take these discussions too seriously and too personally instead of just seeing them for what they are. Exchanges of differing views, that's all, in most cases.
 

us2are1

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Hi son of man, There is no scripture that tells us that tribulation lasts 3 1/2 yrs. either. The bible doesn't call it tribulation, people do. There is no timeline given for how long it lasts, we just know it begins when the a of d is set up in the temple. Could the time of Jacob's trouble last 3 1/2 yrs? It's possible, but imo, that is a time separate for the jews. Imo, the great trib is satan's wrath upon the church per Rev. 12:17 and will be cut short (end) by the 7th seal pre-wrath rapture.

Yes there is and if you would have read a little further up you would have found it. Daniel 12 is one. Revelation 11 is the other. Two prophets torment those who dwell on the earth for 1260 days.

Dan 12
1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever. 4 "But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase." 5 Then I, Daniel, looked; and there stood two others, one on this riverbank and the other on that riverbank. 6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "How long shall the fulfillment of these wonders be?" 7(the two witnesses) Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, (Christ) when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; (three and a half years) and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.



Rev 11
3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."\
10------------because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.





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Trekson

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I repeat post #159 - Hi son of man, There is no scripture that tells us that tribulation lasts 3 1/2 yrs. either. The bible doesn't call it tribulation, people do. There is no timeline given for how long it lasts, we just know it begins when the a of d is set up in the temple. Could the time of Jacob's trouble last 3 1/2 yrs? It's possible, but imo, that is a time separate for the jews. Imo, the great trib is satan's wrath upon the church per Rev. 12:17 and will be cut short (end) by the 7th seal pre-wrath rapture.

Imo, Dan. 12 is speaking of the time of Jacob's trouble, a time separate from the great trib, imo. Yes, there is a time period of 3 1/2 yrs. but the bible doesn't use the word "tribulation". I think it's pretty plain that Daniel's "time of trouble" for the "nation", which is Israel, is pretty self-explanatory.
 

us2are1

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I repeat post #159 - Hi son of man, There is no scripture that tells us that tribulation lasts 3 1/2 yrs. either. The bible doesn't call it tribulation, people do. There is no timeline given for how long it lasts, we just know it begins when the a of d is set up in the temple. Could the time of Jacob's trouble last 3 1/2 yrs? It's possible, but imo, that is a time separate for the jews. Imo, the great trib is satan's wrath upon the church per Rev. 12:17 and will be cut short (end) by the 7th seal pre-wrath rapture.

Imo, Dan. 12 is speaking of the time of Jacob's trouble, a time separate from the great trib, imo. Yes, there is a time period of 3 1/2 yrs. but the bible doesn't use the word "tribulation". I think it's pretty plain that Daniel's "time of trouble" for the "nation", which is Israel, is pretty self-explanatory.

The bible does call it tribulation and great tribulation. This is the verse that links dan 12.

Matthew 24
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Mark 13
19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.

24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;

John 16
33 These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."






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Trekson

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Hi som, Not wanting to argue but you are assuming it is speaking of the same event. I don't believe it is. I do believe the time of Jacob's trouble and the great trib of satan's wrath upon the church may overlap, but imo, they are separate events. One is judgment, the other is a "trial by fire" so to speak.
 

veteran

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Hi Vet, There's no confusion on my part. Imo, pre-wrath flows smoothly with the prophecies of scripture. We've already discussed all the points you brought out several times over. You see your way as making sense and I see mine. Phrases like last "day" and last "trump" don't really have the authority you give them because as the Day of the Lord is a multi-year, multi-themed event, so is everything that references the phrase "last day". You build a lot on the "last trump" of 1 Co. but no belief should have a two-word phrase used only once in the bible as a foundational part of their doctrine, especially when there are logical alternative views to what the phrasing is speaking about.

Actually, I've not seen those many Pre-Wrath "points" that easily flow with Scripture that you're assuming.

The Pre-Wrath position flat denies the timing of the Rev.16:15 verse, and also the difference between the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe when Christ is not shown reigning yet, vs. the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe timing that shows at that point He is.

It also denies that the "last trump" Paul taught in 1 Cor.15 as being that 7th Trumpet of Rev.11, when it's so simple to understand that "last trump" Paul mentions IS resurrection timing. And who doesn't know that the timing of the resurrection is with Christ's second coming to gather His Church?

Moreover, the "day of the Lord" event, which is covered not just in the NT like 1 Thess.5 and 2 Pet.3:10, but also by the OT prophets, all reveal that day first involves the ending of this present world and the start of Christ's Milennium reign with His elect on earth.

So no, I see no credible evidence for the Pre-Wrath position flowing smoothing aligned with Holy Writ like you infer, but instead with many ideas of men that stand blatantly against God's Holy Writ.
 

tgwprophet

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Son of Man wrote:
" The woman is the daughter of Zion. She gave birth to Christ. Joseph took them into the wilderness of Egypt to hide out for three and a half years. The flood was the murdering of all the Jewish children under a certain age. "

You attempt to qualify Revelation scripture with events prior to Revelation, I do not believe that works. You omitted that the earth swollows the flood. That was not done... yet. And this event cannot be done unti another mother gives birth to the second comming of Chris jesus. To figure that the wilderness swollowed Mary, Joesph and Jesus but that the Bible only tells of Mary can onl;y be error also, for it would have said this wilderness swollowed all three... not just Mary. Your contention denies all the scripture reference given. This woman is carried to the wilderness by an eagle, this too means its description is not directed at the first birth of Jesus. The flood being the mudering, there is no qualifier for that either. The way I described this event entails all the scripture foretelling of this event... yours does not.

I see allot of obscure scripture being used to define instances... that makes those instances obscure. I also see allot of omittance of various parts of scripture to define what one desires to present as truth, as explained above... this method does not build a working model either. Are you really willing to omitt scripture to promote what you want instead of what is?

Ok, possibly I have no qualifier for contending the Woman ( though prrotected 7 years) begins her times of protectiuon at or just prior to the setting of the corner stone that starts the time of Tribulation. But it is Satan after being cast unto the earth that attempts to attack this woman. How is it then that Satan can be cast to earth LONG before he takes or obtains power? Some contend Satan was cast out of heaven long ago, but does that mean he was not allowed back in? Which heaven was he cast out of? And which heaven will he be cast out of just prior to the beginning of Tribulation? Noting there are more than one heaven, we can justify a 7 year tribulation and a second real and physical mother of Jesus.

The seals being opened the trumpets being sounded and more are being used to decide when and/or what events transpire. My contention is these obscure the event unless they are allowed to present themselves as they occur.

The second coming of Christ Jesus is preceeded by his new physical birth, his ascention to Heaven, Satan being cast unto the earth, the Woman being taken into the wilderness for 42 months by an eagle, Satan trying to harm this Woman by a flood, an earthquake swollowing. this flood and this Woman being protected anew for a time and times and the dividing of a time - another 3 1/2 years

Trekson wrote:
" I repeat post #159 - Hi son of man, There is no scripture that tells us that tribulation lasts 3 1/2 yrs. either. The bible doesn't call it tribulation, people do. There is no timeline given for how long it lasts, we just know it begins when the a of d is set up in the temple. Could the time of Jacob's trouble last 3 1/2 yrs? It's possible, but imo, that is a time separate for the jews. Imo, the great trib is satan's wrath upon the church per Rev. 12:17 and will be cut short (end) by the 7th seal pre-wrath rapture. "

Tribulation begins with the setting of the corner stone for the new temple, NOT at the time of the Abomination of Desolation. And the Bible does call this Tribulation, I am not sure what bible you are reading.
 

veteran

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Our Lord Jesus did reveal a specific... period of tribulation upon His servants within the Matt.24 and Mark 13 Scriptures. The phrase "great tribulation" is Greek 'megas thlipsis' which literally translates to 'great' 'pressure, trouble, persecution, or tribulation' (Strong's no. 3137 & 2347). So I don't see how in the world any believer on Him could argue against that point.

Prior to the setting up of the "abomination of desolation", He called the previous period, "the beginning of sorrows" (Matt.24:8). But after His defining of the abomination being setup He then declared that time as a period of "great tribulation". Then in Matt.24:29 He declared His coming and our gathering immediately after that tribulation.

For the 70 weeks prophecy of Dan.9 to be complete, the final "one week" period has to be accounted for based on its prophetic events, irregardless of falseness the Jews are being taught about that "one week" today. And that "one week" period of Dan.9:27 must equal a period of 7 years per the prophecy, a point that the false prophets especially do not want us to declare nor consider.

So it's not by chance that our Lord Jesus revealed in His Revelation a 1260 day period of trials which links to that Dan.9:27 "one week". It has to mean the "beginning of sorrows" represent the prior 1260 day period before the middle of the "one week", and then the setting up of the abomination represents the mid-point, and then the final 1260 days of the "great tribulation" time then follows.

Are we given any evidence that that's the case? I say yes, big time.

Per Rev.11 the mission of God's "two witnesses" does not begin until the latter half of the "one week", a 1260 day period. That's 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe timing, with that 1260 days ending with their death and 3.5 days, and then quickly, the sounding of the final 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe within the "same hour" they rise.

And per Rev.13:5 we're shown the 'dragon' is given power to work for 42 months. That 42 months period is ALSO given in Rev.11 about the Gentiles who tread the temple under foot. (there's a reason why those two prophetic times are given differently as 1260 days vs. 42 months. Per God's calendar system, which is Solar based, 1260 days is not the exact length of time as a 42 month period based on the lunar cycle. The 42 months is given in relation to the dragon's and his servants working. But the 1260 days period is given in relation to God's servants. We are children of the day per Apostle Paul in 1 Thess.5, not children of the night).

Christ declaring His coming and our gathering after... that "great tribulation" He mentioned is denied by both the Pre-trib Rapture theorists, and the Pre-Wrath theorists. What I can't figure out is, why would any true believer on our Lord Jesus deny His declaration there about His coming and our gathering after that tribulation???
 

us2are1

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Hi som, Not wanting to argue but you are assuming it is speaking of the same event. I don't believe it is. I do believe the time of Jacob's trouble and the great trib of satan's wrath upon the church may overlap, but imo, they are separate events. One is judgment, the other is a "trial by fire" so to speak.
I am assuming nothing. I know it is talking about the same event in Matthew 24 and Daniel 12.

Matthew 24 also refers to the abomination of desolation when people who call themselves Christians start hunting and killing people for food.

Because they never understood that their faith toward god would be tested. when Christ's two witnesses take the water from the planet. everyone will be tested.

Time to build up that mountain moving faith.
 

Trekson

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Sorry som but this:"Matthew 24 also refers to the abomination of desolation when people who call themselves Christians start hunting and killing people for food."

is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard.

Vet, I'm well aware of all the prophecies concerning 1260 days, 42 months, a time, times and 1/2 a time, etc. and yes it makes a nice pretty mathematical picture when you divide the 70th week that way. However, scripture doesn't define it as the first half or the latter half of the 70th week. We do because it seems to make sense. There is nothing about the two witnesses prophecy that defines it as being first or latter half. It could just as easily be a combination of the two, (year 2-year 51/2 for example). The only thing regarding these time frames that I am pretty sure of is that Rev. 12:14 will be the latter half. I'm not closing my mind to the possibility that it is first/second half, I'm just keeping an open mind that it might not be, that's all, simply because a lack of sciptural clarification.

I believe God is a very logical, rational being and if He prophecies something will last for 1260 days, I believe He means exactly that. I don't believe He would prophecy that same time frame to be "shortened" to 1260 days as many like to imply. The great trib has no prophesied time period, it is only assumed that wrath and judgment are the great trib when I believe I have adequately shown they are different.

Let's face it Vet, you're not going to believe anything I say that will change you from your post-trib belief and the same with my pre-wrath belief. I'm going to assume you're making adequate preparation, as best as one can, because of your belief. My concern is mainly those pre-tribbers who because of their beliefs fail, to make adequate preparation for a longer stay.
 

revturmoil

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Hi som, Not wanting to argue but you are assuming it is speaking of the same event. I don't believe it is. I do believe the time of Jacob's trouble and the great trib of satan's wrath upon the church may overlap, but imo, they are separate events. One is judgment, the other is a "trial by fire" so to speak.

Re-trib and pre-wrath believers always have to change things to fit their theology but never see the fabrication and complications.


Mark 13:24-27

Matthew 24:29-31

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

Mark 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Different authors describe the same event a little differently. But the word elect just about proves that this is the same event. The gathering in both Mark 13 and Mt. 24 are said to occur after the tribulation. To counter that truth, pre-trib and pre-wrath believers had to change and fabricate several things to make it all fit. I don't know why it is that people just can't see it. I can only assume that they adhere to their beliefs as loyalty to the doctrine than loyalty to discovering truth.
 

Trekson

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Kaotic, Your words:" But the word elect just about proves that this is the same event. The gathering in both Mark 13 and Mt. 24 are said to occur after the tribulation."

Pre-wrath agrees with everything you imply by these scriptures. The difference is in how we view the great trib. We see the great trib as a short-time occurrance within the context of the 70th week. We see the great trib ending with the 7th seal rapture. We do not believe the great trib is the latter part of the 70th week. There is a different name for that and it is called wrath and judgment upon the world in general, from which scripture says the church will be delivered from. There is also the time of Jacob's trouble, that is not the great trib, but is most likely the latter 3 1/2 yrs. and that is only for the nation of Israel. We don't change anything! We take a more realistic, literal approach based on what scripture actually says, not on what we think it says or want it to say. Here's the facts, There is no verse in the KJV that gives a time frame for any kind of tribulation. Anybody that says it's 1260 days or 42 months, etc, is assuming that it is speaking of trib or great trib when the scripture doesn't actually say it.

It's the same thing with the 144,000. Many folks say they are preachers or witnesses to the world but the fact is, the bible doesn't say they do anything! I presume them to be part of the "woman" that goes into hiding per Rev. 12:14.
 

revturmoil

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Kaotic, Your words:" But the word elect just about proves that this is the same event. The gathering in both Mark 13 and Mt. 24 are said to occur after the tribulation."

Pre-wrath agrees with everything you imply by these scriptures. The difference is in how we view the great trib. We see the great trib as a short-time occurrance within the context of the 70th week. We see the great trib ending with the 7th seal rapture. We do not believe the great trib is the latter part of the 70th week. There is a different name for that and it is called wrath and judgment upon the world in general, from which scripture says the church will be delivered from. There is also the time of Jacob's trouble, that is not the great trib, but is most likely the latter 3 1/2 yrs. and that is only for the nation of Israel. We don't change anything! We take a more realistic, literal approach based on what scripture actually says, not on what we think it says or want it to say. Here's the facts, There is no verse in the KJV that gives a time frame for any kind of tribulation. Anybody that says it's 1260 days or 42 months, etc, is assuming that it is speaking of trib or great trib when the scripture doesn't actually say it.

It's the same thing with the 144,000. Many folks say they are preachers or witnesses to the world but the fact is, the bible doesn't say they do anything! I presume them to be part of the "woman" that goes into hiding per Rev. 12:14.

One shouldn't base anything about a rapture by Daniel's 70th week.

The church isn't exempt or delivered from tribulation by any means and it isn't found in God's Word.
We are removed right before the Lord does battle.

You say you haven't changed anything but you make up two different events out of one and broke the tribulation up to fit your theology. Jesus said that the gathering occurs at the end of tribulation. So you have changed the true meaning of tribulation to fit pre-wrath. We are removed before the Lord does battle in order to avoid "friendly fire!"
 

us2are1

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Sorry som but this:"Matthew 24 also refers to the abomination of desolation when people who call themselves Christians start hunting and killing people for food."

is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard.

When the Lords two witnesses take away the rain and moister from the planet and after they have turned all of the oceans, seas, rivers, lakes, canals, levies, and all water supplies to blood. Those without full grown faith in God will suffer loss even to death. That is when the group who call themselves Christians will form and unite a band of devils who will start hunting and killing people for food. For where the carcass is there the eagles will be gathered together.

Rev 11
10 --------- because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.

Matthew 24
28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
 

tgwprophet

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When Satan (notice I did not say the beast nor the anti-christ - for he is not powerful enough) kills the 2 witnesses... time is needed to recover political damage... for after 3 1/2 days... after the world has rejoyced.. these 2 witnesses rise then ascend to heaven. This certainly puts a damper on any campaign against Israel. Next a tenth of the city falls and 7000 die. this also puts a damper on any campaign. These things would require time to be forgotten and to be manupliated before a campaign can proceed. When you attempt to put all the prophecies that transpire during Tribulation into a 3 1/2 year period you attempt to makee these events take place too quickly to be possible. Many people will not be Christian but will have heard from their parents or others about these prophecies and will recognize them... this certainly will instill doubt even to the point of them wantinng to do an about face and against Satan.

Personally. i think when the Chinese with an army of 100 thousand thousand attack, this doubt is put on a back burner and then forgotten. But then after this attack time again is needed before a final campaign led by Satan. Notice how the years have passed as many theologians predicted an on-coming Tribulation... yet it did not arrive. Many attempt to speed these events up to their desire but these things will take place in their own time as God wishes. And 7 years for Tribulation to last will still seem very quick.

Gentiles trod the courtyard 42 months.. but after the Abomination of Desolation is committed Israel will kick non-Jews out. Why? The Jews will recognize Satan for who he is, for at the time the Mark of the Beast will be made manditory and the Jews will deny it! How can the Jews deny this mark with Gentiles all over their country with his mark? I can tell you it has to be this way but you would not believe it....unless I provided substantial proof??? How is it these or any Gentile could remian in a country with only a mark for buying or selling... and that country have no ability to exchange goods and services for payment becasue Israel cannot/will not read this mark? Welcome also to more proof of a 7 year Tribulation.
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Son of Man wrote:

" When the Lords two witnesses take away the rain and moister from the planet and after they have turned all of the oceans, seas, rivers, lakes, canals, levies, and all water supplies to blood. Those without full grown faith in God will suffer loss even to death. That is when the group who call themselves Christians will form and unite a band of devils who will start hunting and killing people for food. For where the carcass is there the eagles will be gathered together. "

I am not sure where you have arrived at these 2 witnesses doing these things to everything you stated and to that degree, but it is not their intention, i can assure you of that. There are so many atrocities out here that do require attention by these 2 and they will have their plate full amassing campaigns against powers and principalities of oh so many countries and because their abilities are only limited by their imaginations... these things you described are simply not necessary to that degree. Doing them as ou suggest would mean they would be affecting true Christians and Jews, that is not thier intention. Consider also, that first on thier to do list...if it has not already been done is... to give israel ALL the land it should have and to kick the philistines out...completely.

If you think I think I think what they think more than what you think they think... i think you're right, if not, you are wrong.
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What would you or anyone here do if... one of the two witnesses came to you and told you who they are? I know the answer to this question and i think it is an out right shame. You would first get mad. Then you would fill yourself wwith your ego and deny the witness. But there is no reward in doing that. however there is a reward in acceptance... and that reward is the same reward as a prophet receives for being a prophet. And so.. these two witnesses whereever they go, carry with them the reward of a prophet to give to any who accept them. To date.. no one has received that reward though many may contend they are close ..by not denying them.

What is the demerit for accepting one of these two witnesses as one of the two witnesses? There is no demeit... only problems if one follws a false prophet and sucumbs to their whims. Whims a true prophet would neverr require and so, is easily spotted as false prophets. Also these two witnesses are called two witnesses, though they also be prophets... for a reason. See there is no Bonus for pretending to be one of these witnesses if one is not one of these witnesses. For they will not chase money, fame, or power. They will not seek followers, though they will provide understanding to thse willing to listen. Does anyone here know how to test a prophet? Now, understanding the 1.260 days of power the two witnesses will have is not here...yet... does anyone know how to test these two witnesses?

I can tell you all this... if anyone can provide a viable test for one of these two witnesses now.. before the 1,260 day period, i know one of them will reveal themself for a test. Have i seen on or both of these two witnesses? Yes i have. I know them very well too. Will I receive the reward of a prophet?.... yes! without a doubt. If any of you have the courage...stick your high horse out to pasture before entering this arena and hop aboard your wise, talking ..... welll lets say.... steed and proceed. Or must I spoon feed this information a tid bit at a time untli the start of the 1,260 days? Its been so strange this information has been around since 2004 but no one is willing to listen, no one is willing to get off their high horse and mount their wise steed. I am i now to be bombarded with attacks in insults? or questions and debates? I think it will be attacks and insults but I hope for the latter....

What to expect from a witness.... the wisdom of Solomon?...no...Solomon had that gift. the strength of Samson?.... no.. Samson had that. the righteousness of Jesus? really - you are kidding right? The righteousness of Enoch and or Elijah?... guess again.. these two witnesses die... they are not rewarded for their righteousness... Remember David.. a man after God's own heart, but how did he obtain bathsheba as a wife? In God's wisdom. he choose who he desires for his own reason... please allow God that ability.
God chose a lowly people to be his people.. the Jews. Why would or should God choose a haughty people to be his 2 witnesses? Everyone expects they think they know who these two witnesses are, but that is just one good reason they will not recognize them...including the Jews. Do you expect them to know scripture better than any PHT? if so why? One can possibly expect them to know scripture and its wisdom to a greatly elevated status after the 1,260 days but that would be because of their link with God, for they are prophets.
 

veteran

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Vet, I'm well aware of all the prophecies concerning 1260 days, 42 months, a time, times and 1/2 a time, etc. and yes it makes a nice pretty mathematical picture when you divide the 70th week that way.

No man divided it that way; God did as shown within the Daniel prophecy about the end of the daily sacrifice and placing of the abomination instead, as per Dan.9:27; Dan.11:31, and Dan.12:11. Coupled with that timing is the 3.5 years the saints are given into the hand of the false one of Daniel, which is a direct parallel to the dragon's 42 months reign given in Rev.13.

So your negative affirmations against that simply do not work with those who do heed the Scripture as written to see that simple interlocking association with our Lord's Revelation.


However, scripture doesn't define it as the first half or the latter half of the 70th week.

That's simply another one of your negative affirmation attempts against the Scripture, since the Dan.9:27 verse about the "one week" (7 years) and the middle of that one week are specifically given. Once again, the Dan.9:27 verse divides that "one week" (7 years) period in half. So phrases like "first half" and "latter half" don't have to be specifically written to understand that's exactly what is meant.

So when other Daniel Scripture is giving info about a 3.5 year period of trial upon the saints, it doesn't take a lot of common sense to realize that's about either the first half or last half of that "one week" division. Doesn't require a lot of common sense to realize that's the period our Lord Jesus was talking about also in His Revelation, and in His Olivet Discourse when He quoted from the Book of Daniel.


We do because it seems to make sense.

Those you are listening to may tell you that, but that's just their excuse in order to hold to their own doctrines. Further, correct me if I'm wrong, but the Pre-Wrath position depends on Christ's coming and gathering of His Church at the time the abomination of desolation is setup, which is the mid-point of Daniel's "one week" period. Even you have preached that idea here on this forum.

So let's see; our Lord Jesus specifically showed His coming and our gathering after... the tribulation He mentioned in Matt.24. And He also showed the time of "great tribulation" being right after the point of that abomination of desolation being setup. Rev.13 reveals the dragon will have power over the saints for 42 months (i.e., 1260 days, or 3.5 years period, i.e., half of Daniel's "one week" period). Tribulation upon the saints? 42 months reign of the dragon? Abomination setup and then tribulation? Tribulation not over until Christ returns to end it? God's two witnesses prophecy for 1260 days through the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period, and then Christ shown reigning right after the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe period? I think the order of events were made very clear per all that.

But you, have been found denying the "great tribulation" Jesus mentioned being for when after the AOD is setup, and the dragon being given power over Christ's saints for 42 months, and that the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe period represents the end of the tribulation time when Jesus begins His reign on earth.

What you're doing is denying the Scripture in order to serve the doctrines of men you'd rather hold to, i.e., the Pre-Wrath position which is just as false as the Pre-Trib Rapture theory.



There is nothing about the two witnesses prophecy that defines it as being first or latter half. It could just as easily be a combination of the two, (year 2-year 51/2 for example). The only thing regarding these time frames that I am pretty sure of is that Rev. 12:14 will be the latter half. I'm not closing my mind to the possibility that it is first/second half, I'm just keeping an open mind that it might not be, that's all, simply because a lack of sciptural clarification.

Wrong: the two witnesses are given to prophecy for a specific period and duration, 1260 days, as written in Rev.11. That period is the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe timing. It is also the time when the Gentiles will tred the courts of the temple under foot for 42 months. That 42 months is the same timing the dragon is given power over Christ's saints per Rev.13.

So... if Christ RETURNS with the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe period as written in Rev.11, then it has to mean that 1260 days period began when and ended when? Simple, the 1260 days the two witnesses prophesy end 3.5 days just prior to the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. And that 7th Trumpet sounds within the "same hour", and then Christ is shown reigning over the nations with His elect. Not difficult at all to figure out that the 1260 days the two witnesses prophesy is the last half of Daniel's "one week". Not only does that make 'sense', but it's what is actually written also.

It's foolishness to imply a doctrine is false because it makes sense. True Doctrine per God's Holy Writ will always... make sense, which is what the simplicity that is in Christ is about.
 

tgwprophet

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The time of the two witnesses is the firt half of Tribulations as they reveal the beast... the anti-christ that receivesd the mortal wound and is healed. The beast would seek to kill the two witnesses, but alas, his power is not great enough, it will require Satan to do this deed. Oh and Veteran, another reason I can state this wound is done to a person and is healed... For if one of these "heads" has a peron who leads it and that person receives this wound the prophecy remains intact even with most or all of your understanding.

Dang, on earth, with all the armour of God on it is hot in here... guess i should have built a back pack with an airconditioner built in.