Hi Saint and Vet, According to scripture the great trib is against God's church, not Israel. Israel has their own time of hardship, the Time of Jacob's Trouble per Jer. 30:7. Different times of trouble for different reasons. The great trib on the church is for 1Peter 1:7 - "[sup] [/sup]That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ.
The time of Jacob's Trouble is judgment before restoration. Not the same thing, imo.
The time of Jacob's trouble is ... the time of "great tribulation" our Lord Jesus mentioned in Matt.24:21. It will affect all ... peoples on earth, but in different ways. For those who remain standing in Christ Jesus, we may expect various persecutions by the wicked, and even by our own deceived brethren and family. For those who are deceived, they will have gone into the depths of darkness and confusion while not being aware of it until Christ reveals Himself at His coming "as a thief in the night." And Christ's Church will be here on earth to go through it. Yet only two symbolic Churches in Revelation are shown making a stand for Christ during it, which means the other five are deceived in that time, which is the actual time of Apostle Paul's 'falling away' idea in 2 Thess.2.
Vet, Regarding Dan. 7:25-27, this is just confirming that Israel will be the dominate nation in the millennium.
You're basing that on your accepted views of Dispensationalism, which wrongly teaches a division between Israelite believers and Gentile believers. That is one of men's doctrines, and if you heed it, you will miss how that prophecy is about all of Christ's Church as "the commonwealth of Israel" which Apostle Paul declared to Christians of the Church at Ephesus (Ephesians 2).
Your words: "As for the "rod of iron" which our Lord Jesus and His elect will rule with, we were already told that in the Psalms. It's for the 'nations'."
I don't just believe what I said there, I know it, because it's well written of in Psalms 2 and Revelation, especially Revelation 20 which reveals nations still existing that will side with Satan after Christ's Millennium reign. Zechariah 14 reveals that also. Surely you don't believe those nations of that time only means Christian believers, for that would be confusion, seeing how those join with Satan as Gog and Magog at the end of Christ's Millennium.
If you believe, as I do, that there are gentile nations in the millennium, why do you not believe that the survivors of the sheep and goat judgments will be the ones to re-populate the earth to form those "nations".
The idea that the nations of the lost at that future time will still be in flesh bodies of today is an assumption from men's doctrines that flesh is all we're made up of. It's a Jewish doctrine. That assumption is even why the Sadduccees didn't believe in any resurrection of the dead at all. The Pharisees believed in a resurrection, but one of flesh like today's flesh. Study Isaiah 25 in conjunction with what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15 about the resurrection, and don't forget that he said "neither doth corruption inherit incorruption".
Another area in Scripture which might be misleading you on that is the Rev.20:5 Scripture about the "dead" that lived not again until the thousand years are over. That's not about literal dead that haven't been resurrected yet. It's about the spiritually dead of the nations that are still in a lost condition while going through Christ's thousand years reign with His elect. If you'll look closely, the rebellious of those nations follow Satan at the end of the thousand years PRIOR to God's great white throne judgment. And most think at God's Judgment is when those "dead" are resurrected to stand in judgment which means automatic conflict with the Scripture. So how is it, those nations are there already prior to Satan's final release, and also prior to God's final Judgment time?
Because of that, some assume those lost nations must still be in their same flesh bodies of today going through Christ's future Milennium reign, while only His elect went go through the 'change' at the 'twinkling of an eye' that Paul taught that's to happen with Christ's return, i.e., like a mixture of peoples on earth with some in their resurrected "spiritual body", while others are still in their flesh bodies. That's not what Isaiah 25 points to where Paul was pulling the death swallowed up in victory idea from. Isaiah 25 reveals all peoples... will be changed, including the wicked, just as 1 Cor.15 does too if one pays close attention.
I never said the lake of fire was the same as gehenna or sheol or anything similar but I still believe it's been around since the fall of satan.
The "lake of fire" is an event prepared for the end, prior to the new heavens and a new earth. God said He prepared it of old for Satan and his angels, but to me that does not suggest it has ever existed yet, only that God has already ordained that it will take place. Our Lord Jesus used the burning in the valley of Hinnom to compare... it to.
Your words: "
Concerning the Rev.20:10 verse, stop and do some more thinking, and look at Rev.19:20 again. If you'll notice, Satan the devil is left out of Rev.19:20. The meaing? The "beast" and "false prophet" are ALREADY destroyed PRIOR to the devil going into that "lake of fire" at Rev.20:10. Don't stop there though, because what does that Rev.19:20 casting mean, since God's great white throne judgment of those who perish is not until later after Christ's "thousand years" reign per Rev.20:11-15? In other words, just who all... has God already judged and sentenced to perish in that "lake of fire" at that Rev.19:20 specific point in time? Understanding this is important, because it's another marker God put in His Word to understand who the final Antichrist on earth will be."
You have said that the "beast" is satan. I am trying to show you they are different beings. Rev. 20:10 is not the only vs, that points this out. Rev. 19:20 has the beast and false prophet cast into the lake of fire, which does not have to be after the GWTJ. Special evil can receive special judgment. However in Rev. 20:2-3 satan is cast into the bottomless pit, again "separate" from the beast. They are not the same. I believe my theory of "possession" adequately explains this.
The "another beast" is the devil himself, Satan, that old serpent, the dragon. The "beast" of Rev.19:20 that goes into the lake of fire at the start of Christ's thousand years reign is
the FIRST beast of Rev.13:1, a kingdom beast (i.e., the one world government system being setup today, 10 horns, 7 heads, 10 crowns).
There's 2 different beasts mentioned in Rev.13.
My main point you were to catch is this: if the false prophet, or another beast, is some flesh man, then how is it that he goes into the lake of fire PRIOR to God's great white throne judgment which is after Christ's thousand years reign? There is no prior lake of fire judgment of any flesh man other than at the end of Rev.20. If one says there is, then it would mean others that have died, like Judas Iscariot and all the wicked dead are already judged and have perished already.
At some point I'd like to discuss Ez. 40-48. Perhaps some time you can write an article on it. Even tho I may not agree, I'd love to hear your "take" on it besides the bits and pieces you mention here and there. It's not a topic I've put much study into.
I've done that already on this forum, but it's buried somewhere. Study Ezek.38-39 in conjunction with "day of the Lord" events, for that's when it's tied to. Gog and Magog in both Ezek.38 and Rev.20 serve as symbolic for those who follow the devil against God's people. Those are two separate timed events, one for just prior to Christ's second coming, and the other at the end of Christ's future Millennium reign when Satan is released to deceive the nations one final time prior to his destruction.
