Seven Years of Tribulation,

[mark s]

Hi Mark, In my opinion, Matt. 24:31 is a picture of the rapture. As a pre-wrather we believe this will occur an est. 2-3 yrs. before the gathering of the nations at Matt. 25:32, which we believe is at the beginning of the millennium. This judgment decides who is worthy to enter the millennial age in their still human body to help re-populate the earth.

How long does the beast have authority? When does the beast receive authority?

Mark something doesn't make sense here; I have a few questions.

Is there a millennium?

Are the saints gathered prior to the millennium and given glorified bodies?

And the finial question is; is there judgment which condemns people to eternal punishment prior to the Great White Throne judgment?

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

Hi Bob,

Yes, a 1000 year time when Jesus rules the earth from Jerusalem.

At the catching of those in Christ, they are given immortal bodies. At the resurrection of the OT faithful, these too are given immortal bodies.

And, to answer a question with a question . . .

Are people eternally condemned to eternal punishment, even now?

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[Saint]

That the "gentiles" is actual Israel.

Mark as I have said; I think it is important to remember that the term gentile (goy or goyim) (ethnos in Greek) can apply to both non Israelites as well as Israelites; it simply means unbelievers among the nations. The term in the bible becomes confused because in most cases you have two groups; either the Jews (tribe of Judah, those remaining in Israel) or gentiles (unbelievers of the Jewish Faith). At the time of Yeshua the tribes of the Northern Kingdom were dispersed from the land and largely forgotten. It is those lost Israelites that Yeshua says He returned for and it is to them that He sent the apostles; they can be classified as gentiles.

Just who are the gentiles in Romans 2 and 9?

Rom 2:12-16 KJV For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (13) (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. (14) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: (15) Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another (16) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

The key words that I see here are the ones in bold. "Written in their hearts"!

The Scripture is very clear concerning who has the Law of Yahweh written in their hearts. We have three witnesses. The first is in Jeremiah 31, the second is in Hebrews chapter 8 and the third in Hebrews chapter 10.

Jeremiah 31:33 "But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says YHVH: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."

Hebrews 8:10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the YHVH: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."

and

Hebrews 10:16 "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more."

This is the important key. If you are of the house of Israel you have the law of Yahweh Elohim, written on your heart. If you have the law written on your heart then you have a physical connection to the physical house of Israel. If you don't have the law written on your heart then you are not of the house of Israel. This is New Testament teaching. Yahweh Elohim has a continuing plan for the physical house of Israel. There is no justification for spiritualizing the house of Israel here. In verse 8 the writer of Hebrews quoting from Jeremiah ties this house of Israel to the physical people (and their descendants) who Yeshua brought out of the land of Egypt.

Now for Roman 9…

It seems we are provided with a lot of clues regarding the Identity of just who the Gentiles spoken of in these two chapters really are.

They are "vessels of mercy". ​

They were prepared for "glory". ​

They were called "Gentiles". ​

They were called "not My people". ​

They are called "sons of the living God".​

“Vessels of mercy”…I think Psalms 136 details this pretty well; it is Israel.

“Prepared for glory”…Romans 9:4 says: “Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory”

“Called gentiles”… There are actually several places where we are told that Israel was to be known as Gentiles or Greeks and be living among them. We are also told that Yahweh would sift them from among the nations, Amos 9:9. One that is very much overlooked and is in the New Testament is found in John 7.

John 7:33 "Then Jesus said to them, "I shall be with you a little while longer, and then I go to Him who sent Me.
34 "You will seek Me and not find Me, and where I am you cannot come."
35 Then the Judeans[sup]1[/sup] said among themselves, "Where does He intend to go that we shall not find Him? Does He intend to go to the Dispersion among the Greeks and teach the Greeks?"

The word "dispersion" is from the Greek word "diaspora". The definition is, "Israelite residents in Gentile countries". This refers to the Assyrian captivity from which most of Israel escaped and dispersed themselves to every corner of the earth. Many Israelites went to Europe, but in John 7 the Judeans were referring to those who moved to Greece.

“Not My people”… Those who are refereed to as "not my people" and later "sons of he living God" are identified in Hosea as the House of Ephraim.
Rom 9:24-26 KJV Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? (25) As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. (26) And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Hos 1:10 KJV Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.


“Sons of the living God”… Hos 1:10 KJV Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

So who are the gentiles… I think it is obvious; the House of Israel has to be the answer. To read Romans 9:24-25 and suggest the reference taken from Hosea are some otherpeople would be to misread Paul’s intent.

Just a side note: going back to Romans 2 and the statement “written in their hearts”; I think this fits well with John 10:27 when Yeshua declares that “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me”. Yeshua came for the gathering of the Lost House of Israel.

Please show me anywhere in the OT where Yahweh says He intends to save anyone other than the House of Jacob or for that fact anywhere where Yeshua says He will write the New Covenant on the hearts of anyone other than the House of Jacob.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

Also I might add; Yeshua is quite specific in stating His mission:

Mat 15:24 YLT and he answering said, `I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.'

 

[us2are1]

It is made up by men and not in scripture. The scripture states a time, times and half time which is three and a half years. It states forty two months which is also three and a half years and it states 1260 days which is also three and a half years. In the book of Daniel 12th Chapter it uses these four terms which run concurrent.

1. time, times and a half time
2. one thousand two hundred and ninety days.
3. one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

The great tribulation starts when the two witnesses of God remove the weather and water from earth.

In Revelation 11 the term forty two months is used to show the amount of time that the pagans will trample Gods courts. These are those who call themselves the church but throught the lust of the flesh do the abomination of desolation.

forty two months is three and a half years which is also the 1260 days of the two witnesses ministry. they run concurrent.

 

[Saint]

Also I might add; Yeshua is quite specific in stating His mission:

Mat 15:24 YLT and he answering said, `I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.'

 

[mark s]

Mark as I have said; I think it is important to remember that the term gentile (goy or goyim) (ethnos in Greek) can apply to both non Israelites as well as Israelites; it simply means unbelievers among the nations. The term in the bible becomes confused because in most cases you have two groups; either the Jews (tribe of Judah, those remaining in Israel) or gentiles (unbelievers of the Jewish Faith). At the time of Yeshua the tribes of the Northern Kingdom were dispersed from the land and largely forgotten. It is those lost Israelites that Yeshua says He returned for and it is to them that He sent the apostles; they can be classified as gentiles.

Hi Bob,

Firstly . . . thank you for the big type . . . these old tired eyes, you know! Just kidding, small is OK!

I'll need to answer this more fully later, as I don't have time to address point by point, however, a couple of quick things . . .

Just who are the gentiles in Romans 2 and 9?

Rom 2:12-16 KJV For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (13) (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. (14) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: (15) Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another (16) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Who are the Gentiles in this passage?

the Gentiles, which have not the law,

There are those who were given the Law - the Israelites. And then there are the others, who were not given the Law - the gentiles.

As far as the Israelites having the Law written in their hearts . . . this has to be something different, since it hadn't happened yet. The prophets foretold it for a day yet to come.

One of the wonderful things about truth is that it is so simple.

Love in Christ,
mark

btw . . . "all" who call upon the Name of the LORD will be saved.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Mark, Your questions: "How long does the beast have authority? When does the beast receive authority?"

Rev. 13:5 - "And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months."

This verse answers both questions, but in regards to exactly when within the context one could only give an educated guess. This is what I believe. I believe the beast/antichrist is a human being who exercise authority in one way or another for the duration of the 7 yrs. plus. We first see him as the first rider coming to conquer by deception. In Rev. 13:3 we are told - "And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast."

It is my personal opinion that this happens at the same time as Rev. 12:9. When satan is cast out he possesses the body of the a/c who is near death or in a coma and "miraculously" gets healed. We know according to Dan.11:31, 9:27 and 12:11 that the abomination of desolation will be 'set up" (erected) around the middle of the 70th week.

We see this being fulfilled in Rev. 13:14-15 - "And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. [sup]15 [/sup]And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed."

I hope that I have answered the questions you were asking, at least from my pov.

 

[mark s]

The standard answer would be, the beast receives 42 months authority at the middle of the 70th week, or 3.5 years before Jesus returns. Would you agree with this?

 

[Trekson]

Hi Mark, Not exactly. I believe the 70th week ends with the 7th trumpet. The vial judgments occur during the first thirty days after, culminating in Armageddon (the 1290 days of Daniel). This is for His physical return to earth. I believe Matt. 24:29-31 occurs sometime around year 4 or 5 of the 70th week.

 

[mark s]

So then you believe a rapture a couple of years ahead of Jesus' standing upon the earth? And this to occur during the time of the beast's authority? Is this correct?

What is the beast's authority over?

 

[Trekson]

Yes, Pre-wrath believes the rapture will end the great trib which is satan's wrath upon the church per Rev. 12:17. Our time of persecution and martyrdom is depicted in Rev. 13:7-10. The 5th seal martyr's are part of that future persecution with the signs of the sixth seal heralding the start of the Day of the Lord. Our arrival in heaven is depicted in Rev. 7:9.

The beast/anti-christ authority will end at Armageddon, imo and I believe he is given political power over the majority of the earth eventually.

If you're still here we could take this to the chat room. Just a suggestion.

 

[us2are1]

Daniel 11
27 Both these kings' hearts shall be bent on evil, and they shall speak lies at the same table; but it shall not prosper, for the end will still be at the appointed time.

​These kings are a type. They are reminiscent of those who use a kings signet. "Their signature" to swear a false oath. They are also those who believe the lies of the devil. They bask in their vanity and talk it over with each other to secure their falsehood with each other. Still the truth of God will overtake them and consume them and their love for a lie.

They believe vanity like rapture and going to heaven to instruct God on His throne. They love the added on concepts that are not in the bible such as a seven year tribulation and trinity. Those who are Christ's can always identify them by the vain conversations that proceed from their mouths.

 

[veteran]

Hi Vet, Good post and I agree with most of it except for one small but important typo.

Your words:Altogether, the 70 weeks total up to 532 years, each week = one seven.

Actually they come to 490 years. 70 x 7 = 490.

Yep, you're right. I stand corrected on that.

What I want to know is where do you find in scripture that "false Jews", what ever they are, will accept a coming false messiah?

False Jews idea; Rev.2:9 and 3:9 defined by Christ Jesus; those who 'say' they are Jews, but are not, and do lie.


John 5:38-47
38 And ye have not His word abiding in you: for Whom He hath sent, Him ye believe not.
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of Me.
40 And ye will not come to Me, that ye might have life.
41 I receive not honour from men.
42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43 I am come in My Father's name, and ye receive Me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed Me: for he wrote of Me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe My words?
(KJV)

A false Jew will only CLAIM what Moses wrote, yet not believe it nor follow it. The coming false messiah is coming in his own name, and those false Jews will believe on him. He is specifically prepared for those.

Hi Mark, There is no verse that calls for a 7 yr. or 3.5 yr. tribulation. The great trib according to pre-wrath theory is satan's wrath against the church per Rev. 12:17 and will end an undetermined time later with the rapture at the 7th seal. We believe it begins right after the abomination of desolation is set up at the mid point of Daniel's 70th week. Per Matt. 24:22, those days of great trib will be shortened or none of the church would survive.

Well, now it's my turn to correct you. Daniel 7:25 gives us a specifc time of 3.5 years that the false one coming will wear out the saints and be given into his hand for that amount of time. That's the same time period which Revelation is pointing to with the 42 months or 1260 days. The direct parallel to Dan.7:25 is in Rev.12:14 and Rev.13:5-7.

kaotic. "We" are pre-wrathers. There is very little scriptural support for the "7th trump" to be the last trump of 1 Cor. 15.

Mark, You are correct in your clarification of Matt. 24:22 but, imo, God isn't concerned that "no flesh" survive. He is only concerned with His elect in this verse, only because at this time the church is still included with the "no flesh". Once the church is raptured than the judgments begin upon all remaining unrepentant flesh and the death to humanity will be massive.

Truly though, you may as well move that up a little bit and believe the pre-trib rapture idea too. Fear of God's wrath is their main fear.

I wonder who first created the idea that Christ's Church had to be removed off this earth so as to not suffer God's wrath upon the wicked? Do you know?

Hi Saint, Prophetically speaking, National Israel, made of the end-time believing remnant, has a future earthly destiny to re-populate the earth (along with some gentiles) and to act as His priests (the 144,000+) during the millennium. The church (spiritual Israel) has a heavenly destiny although I believe we will be going back and forth from heaven to earth as Christ wills, imo and yes some of us saints will be reigning on earth, but certainly not all.

Where in the world did you that kind of idea that a remnant left on earth is going to re-populate it? That's nowhere written in God's Word.

Once Christ returns and gathers His saints, we all... will be on earth, and won't be going back and forth anywhere. It's Christ that will move back and forth, hinted at in Ezekiel. The "mansions" Christ promised His disciples are on the earth, not up in the clouds somewhere. They're the abodes of the priests in the temple of Ezekiel 40 through 44. The Heavenly dimension is going to be revealed upon this earth, which is what Paul's change at the twinkling of a eye is about, pulling from Isaiah 25.

Hi Mark, Matt. 24:22 speaks of the "elect" which I'm assuming you mean by chosen. 1Peter. 1:1-2 (NIV)defines them for us: "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, [sup]2 [/sup]who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood.

The gathering of the nations (all human survivors after Armageddon) in Matt. 25 is for the sheep and goat judgment (believers have previously been gathered at the rapture and judged between the timing of the rapture and when Christ's 2nd physical advent occurs). They will be judged according to the parameters of Matt. 25:35-36. The human Israeli and Gentile sheep shall be allowed to enter the millennium, the goats won't.

well what do ya know, kaotic and I actually agree on a small point of prophecy.

then you're both wrong, because the 'goats' won't be destroyed until the "lake of fire" event, which occurs at what point per Rev.20? At the END of Christ's future "thousand years" reign.

 

[revturmoil]

43 I am come in My Father's name, and ye receive Me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

The word IF is a conditional participle and means that there is no certainty of it's fulfilment.

Try again!

Thayer's say's...

...which makes reference to time and to experience, introducing something future, but not determining, before the event, whether it is certainly to take place

http://www.bluelette...ngs=G1437&t=KJV
Who do you say the synagogue of Satan is???

 

[mark s]

Hi Bob,

To recap, the gentiles, who do not have the law, have God's law written in their hearts, according to Romans 2.

The Israelites, on the other hand, will have the law written in their hearts at some future time.

So these must refer to 2 different concepts.

In the case of the Gentiles having the law written in their hearts, their consciences both accuse and excuse, meaning that they do things which both agree and disagree with their “internal law”.

In the case of the Israelites, when they will have the law written in their hearts, they will keep the law completely.

So then in the case of the gentiles, it is the knowledge of right and wrong that Paul was talking about.

In the case of the Israelites, it is a behavioral change, and I think actually a new nature, that causes them to become completely compliant to the law.

These are two different things.

The Scripture is very clear concerning who has the Law of Yahweh written in their hearts. We have three witnesses. The first is in Jeremiah 31, the second is in Hebrews chapter 8 and the third in Hebrews chapter 10.

Jeremiah 31:33 "But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says YHVH: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."

This makes the point very well. These who will have the law written on their hearts are the people of God.

But lets read a little further:

Jeremiah 31:33-34 ESV
(33) But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(34) And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

These are forgiven and accepted.

Compare to:

Romans 2:12-16 ESV
(12) For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.
(13) For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
(14) For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
(15) They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them
(16) on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

This is not the same thing. Hebrews 8 and 10 reaffirm the same thing, displaying the same difference.

There is one place you did not mention.

Ezekiel 11:17-20 ESV
(17) Therefore say, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: I will gather you from the peoples and assemble you out of the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.'
(18) And when they come there, they will remove from it all its detestable things and all its abominations.
(19) And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh,
(20) that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Again, this affirms the same point, albeit more strongly.

You've made the assertion:

If you don't have the law written on your heart then you are not of the house of Israel

But let's return to Jeremiah momentarily:

Jeremiah 31:33-34 ESV
(33) But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

God's Covenant with the house of Israel is that He will – future – write His law on their hearts. This is the house of Israel. God's law is not written on their hearts at the time of this prophecy. We know that is true because prophet foretells it to come in the future. Yet they are the house of Israel.

OK, since this is so clearly stated, I'm not going to reply to every passage you've cited. There are none that actual make the case, only that you've defined gentile as “unbelieving Jew”.

One more though that I will respond to:

John 7:33 "Then Jesus said to them, "I shall be with you a little while longer, and then I go to Him who sent Me.
34 "You will seek Me and not find Me, and where I am you cannot come."
35 Then the Judeans said among themselves, "Where does He intend to go that we shall not find Him? Does He intend to go to the Dispersion among the Greeks and teach the Greeks?"

The word "dispersion" is from the Greek word "diaspora". The definition is, "Israelite residents in Gentile countries". This refers to the Assyrian captivity from which most of Israel escaped and dispersed themselves to every corner of the earth. Many Israelites went to Europe, but in John 7 the Judeans were referring to those who moved to Greece.

They wondered if Jesus was going to where the Jews lived among the Greeks, to teach the Greeks. This in no wise identifies gentiles as unbelieving Jews.

Please show me anywhere in the OT where Yahweh says He intends to save anyone other than the House of Jacob or for that fact anywhere where Yeshua says He will write the New Covenant on the hearts of anyone other than the House of Jacob.

Genesis 12:1-3 ESV
(1) Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you.
(2) And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing.
(3) I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

Out of the many places Greeks are mentioned in the NT, clearly indicating that non-Israelites (Israelites = children of Jacob) were being saved, this is perhaps the more interesting in this context:

Acts 17:4 ESV
(4) And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a great many of the devout Greeks and not a few of the leading women.

“Devout Greeks” forestalls your argument that “Greeks” is euphemistic for “unbelieving Jews”.

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[Trekson]

Veteran, Your words: “Well, now it's my turn to correct you. Daniel 7:25 gives us a specifc time of 3.5 years that the false one coming will wear out the saints and be given into his hand for that amount of time. That's the same time period which Revelation is pointing to with the 42 months or 1260 days. The direct parallel to Dan.7:25 is in Rev.12:14 and Rev.13:5-7.

That’s a valid theory. I see things a little differently. Are “saints’ in this passage representative of the church or Israel? Rev. 12:14 is definitely Israel and she is being protected and cared for, not persecuted in this verse. Imo, these are the 144,000 plus those of Zech. 12:10. In this context, the church is those of Rev. 12:17 - “…rest of her offspring, those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.” The bible doesn’t tell us how long the “time of Jacob’s Trouble” will last but I would say that Dan. 7:25 falls in line with that prophecy. Considering that Rev.11:2 references the “time of the Gentiles” for that same period, I believe it is emphasizing Israel & Jerusalem in particular at this point and not the church in general.

Your question: “I wonder who first created the idea that Christ's Church had to be removed off this earth so as to not suffer God's wrath upon the wicked? Do you know?”

You’re probably thinking of Darby and all that, however, I believe it is God’s stated plan in scripture.



Your question: “Where in the world did you that kind of idea that a remnant left on earth is going to re-populate it? That's nowhere written in God's Word.”

Yes, it is. Millennial life is portrayed in several areas in scripture including Ez. 40-48 that you keep bringing up. This is the earthly millennial temple, imo and the “priests“ are the 144,000. If all are believers, why animal sacrifices? (That has always puzzled me!). All the millennial references to the “nations” verifies that. There are a lot of verses that speak of millennial life in the OT. Where do you think the rebellion comes from in Rev. 20:7-9? Why would Christ need to rule us with a “rod of iron”? One of the reasons the Jews rejected Christ was because if He was who He claimed to be, than they expected the millennial kingdom at that time. Google, “life in the millennium”, I’m sure you’ll find out a lot about it. Whether you believe it or not is of course up to you.


Your words: then you're both wrong, because the 'goats' won't be destroyed until the "lake of fire" event, which occurs at what point per Rev.20? At the END of Christ's future "thousand years" reign.

This is another valid viewpoint, however, I believe their judgment occurs as stated. The lake of fire has always been around. Nothing implies that it will be “created” at the end of the millennium. To change the topic a little bit. While researching this I read Rev. 20:10 which separates, the beast (a/c), the false prophet and satan into three different beings.

 

[revturmoil]

Vet said,

Your question: “I wonder who first created the idea that Christ's Church had to be removed off this earth so as to not suffer God's wrath upon the wicked? Do you know?”

Trek said,

You’re probably thinking of Darby and all that, however, I believe it is God’s stated plan in scripture.

We know that Christ returns at the end of the tribulation. I don't think any of us deny that. BUT! If the rapture is the major event we all see in scripture. And if the event is said to occur at a time other than at the end of tribulation, then I'm sure that pre-trib, mid, and pre-wrath believers could show us at least ONE scripture that says Christ returns at a time other than the end of tribulation.

SO Trek,

Are you saying the Lord returns at the sixth seal even before the scroll is opened?

And again where is there a verse that you say believers won't suffer God's wrath during the tribulation?

 

[Trekson]

Hi Kaotic, It all depends on how you define tribulation. Seeing as how there is nothing in scripture that says that tribulation lasts 7 yrs. or 3.5 yrs, imo, calling the 70th week, "the tribulation period" is a misnomer. There is a "great trib" spoken of by Christ in Matt. 24:21 and it ends per Christ in Matt. 24:29. As stated, we believe the rapture "ends" the great trib, thus we are raptured at the "end" of the great trib. We just differ on when the great trib ends. It is a short time period within the context of the 70th week. Cut short by Christ because He will only let His children be persecuted for so long. This is shown in Rev. 7:14 where it describes where the group in Rev. 7:9 came from. We came out of the great trib because it was the last thing we were experiencing before the rapture, imo. When we leave, the wrath of the Lamb begins followed by the wrath of God.

No, we do not believe Christ returns at the 6th seal. We believe He comes just prior to the opening of the 7th which iniates the first trumpet judgment. The 6th seal, imo, contains the signs we are to look for per Luke 21:25-28. We believe the phrase, "your redemption" means the rapture.

On a personal level, can't we just agree to disagree without you going all postal with your debunking talk. You ask questions and I'm polite enough to answer them. You don't have to like them, agree with them or believe them. If you don't want to hear my answers, don't ask the questions. We can disagree without being disagreeable. I believe many of your "theories" are wrong but I don't "attack" your belief in them. I just show you scripture and explain how I believe differently. Showing a little "brotherly love" never hurt anyone.

 

[revturmoil]

Hi Kaotic, It all depends on how you define tribulation. Seeing as how there is nothing in scripture that says that tribulation lasts 7 yrs. or 3.5 yrs, imo, calling the 70th week, "the tribulation period" is a misnomer. There is a "great trib" spoken of by Christ in Matt. 24:21 and it ends per Christ in Matt. 24:29. As stated, we believe the rapture "ends" the great trib, thus we are raptured at the "end" of the great trib. We just differ on when the great trib ends. It is a short time period within the context of the 70th week. Cut short by Christ because He will only let His children be persecuted for so long. This is shown in Rev. 7:14 where it describes where the group in Rev. 7:9 came from. We came out of the great trib because it was the last thing we were experiencing before the rapture, imo. When we leave, the wrath of the Lamb begins followed by the wrath of God.

No, we do not believe Christ returns at the 6th seal. We believe He comes just prior to the opening of the 7th which iniates the first trumpet judgment. The 6th seal, imo, contains the signs we are to look for per Luke 21:25-28. We believe the phrase, "your redemption" means the rapture.

On a personal level, can't we just agree to disagree without you going all postal with your debunking talk. You ask questions and I'm polite enough to answer them. You don't have to like them, agree with them or believe them. If you don't want to hear my answers, don't ask the questions. We can disagree without being disagreeable. I believe many of your "theories" are wrong but I don't "attack" your belief in them. I just show you scripture and explain how I believe differently. Showing a little "brotherly love" never hurt anyone.

I suppose you don't see the contradictions in what you just said. I can reveal them to you if you like but then you would again be DEBUNKED!
The more you tell me about what you believe the more I want to blow it right out of the water and DEBUNK it!
I'm not attacking you. I'm just standing up for the truth in the Word of God. All debunk means is to be proven wrong. Well prove me wrong without fabrication!

 

[Trekson]

I know you want to "debunk" it but no one has been able to in 25 yrs. I doubt you'll be the first. You can disagree with it, you can argue against it but until prophecy becomes history, NO ONE will be able to debunk it.

 

[mark s]

Pre-wrath? It doesn't work. You end up having to say that passages mean other than what they say. That's always an indicator . . .

Hi Kaotic, It all depends on how you define tribulation. Seeing as how there is nothing in scripture that says that tribulation lasts 7 yrs. or 3.5 yrs, imo, calling the 70th week, "the tribulation period" is a misnomer. There is a "great trib" spoken of by Christ in Matt. 24:21 and it ends per Christ in Matt. 24:29. As stated, we believe the rapture "ends" the great trib, thus we are raptured at the "end" of the great trib.

Jesus said . . . after the tribulation of those days . . . then comes the gathering of the chosen. Now, for the sake of the debate . . . let's say that this actually were the rapture (it's not), it does not "end the great trib", the great trib is already ended before that gathering occurs.

You need to pay attention to the details, and take every word seriously. Oh, I know I won't change your mind . . .

Love in Christ,
Mark