Seventh day Adventism
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gadar perets
Well-Known Member
Of course I am. The word is not found in Scripture. If you have a non-secular definition, why didn't you just give it?
So how am I to answer these videos @CoreIssue ? Because the reason I ask is that there are answers to every single one of the points they raise. In fact, just 2 minutes into the video of the Kim dude he said, quote: Jehovah's Witnesses have a silly argument (chortle chortle) in that they answer texts "teaching" eternal torment by saying they are annihilated "forever and ever". So then he laughs and jokes, "how can anyone be annihilated forever and ever? Once one is annihilated they are gone right? Ha Ha ha".... I think that for a so-called doctor, this guy is very dim, and for you, a self professed intelligence analyst and politician, you are very dim for posting such nonsense. I mean, is manipulating simple grammar all he's got? And BTW, we are not Jehovah's Witnesses. Even though we may agree that eternal torment is error, doesn't mean we agree on the alternative. This thread is about SDAs. So I stopped listening after that first stupid remark, and ask again, how do I answer a video that is clearly filled with the same nonsensical arguments that have been dragged up for centuries to support the Catholic eternal torment chicken dung doctrine? If you want a discussion, then let us have one by all means. But this video nonsense? I could post numerous videos on our perspective. And they will make far more sense than anything you can produce spewing the same lies and maligning the character of God in the manner of eternal torment.
Anyone supporting eternal torment needs to get to know their God better. And their Bibles, because anyone who truly studies this topic will find the weight of Biblical evidence vastly greater in support of the concept that the wages of sin, death means exactly that...a loss of life. And you will not find one Biblical example, nor even a secular one, that says otherwise. The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Anyone supporting eternal torment needs to get to know their God better. And their Bibles, because anyone who truly studies this topic will find the weight of Biblical evidence vastly greater in support of the concept that the wages of sin, death means exactly that...a loss of life. And you will not find one Biblical example, nor even a secular one, that says otherwise. The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
There is no difference to you addressing what is said in the videos addressing links and posted quotes.
See, you just responded to one here. So do not tell me you cannot do it.
Plus the topic of the video was annihilation, so it address both JW and SDA that you both believe in that.
But here you are trying to dismiss the as a JW only video.
Giving false arguments. Just quote the parts you don't like and address them.
As with what you attempted here the video most assuredly quotes the Bible verses that states being in the lake of fire has no end, ever.
Okay, great, now we engaging on a person to person basis...having a conversation. That is what I was referring to. I don't know what verses you are referring to above specifically, as I didn't watch all the video. But I have been discussing this topic off and on for 20 years now with people just like you...just like the people in the videos and others here on this forum, convinced that man is innately immortal, and that death does not mean death, but eternal life in disguise. Or that only the body dies, but our spirits are immortal, and cannot die. Or maybe they can die, but God intervenes and deliberately works at keeping them alive in order to suffer.
But as for those verses you are referring to, I haven't had anyone actually quote such a verse to me yet...a verse that says someone will be in the lake of fire for ever, without end. You suggest that there are more than one verse saying that...strange how I haven't read any in the Bible that does actually say, sinners will suffer and burn for ever and ever without end. I have seen verses that say the fire cannot be put out. I have seen verses (one anyway) that say the smoke of their torment goes up forever. I have seen verses that say the punishment (note: noun, not verb punishing) inflicted upon sinners is eternal. But no where in scripture have I found any stating categorically that any sinner will be suffering forever in the lake of fire, conscious of his surroundings and aware of his pain and situation. In other words, alive eternally being punished continually without respite or end.
If however you know of some, then by all means produce them now, and I will leave Adventism immediately and recommend to my church that it repents for teaching heresy. If however you fail to produce such evidence, then your protestations against me, and my church's beliefs on this subject become rather moot do they not?
I don't wish to get in the middle of your discussions, but if we agree that the Lake of Fire is Gehenna, which is eternal Hell, then Jesus Himself spoke of eternal torment many times. You can check it out for yourself.
There is where I must first pull you up. Was this word, Gehenna, not a transliteration of the Hebrew place name Valley of Hinnom, a rubbish dump outside Jerusalem? Thus the word 'hell', Gehenna, was a metaphor for a place of burning, a fire which could not be quenched. However, one must ask a couple of questions. Though the fire could not be quenched, is that fire still burning? And secondly, is there anything still in that place that hasn't been long gone, decomposed, obliterated into non-existence because it is all burnt up? Surely the reason there is no fire still burning there is because there is no longer any fuel to give it life. Even fire dies without input.
Not exactly no, He didn't. He spoke of a punishment that was eternal, yes. And He spoke of fire that couldn't be put out, yes. And He spoke of sinners being thrown into that fire. Absolutely. But what He did not say in the context of our conversation, is even more important than what He did say. Because what Jesus did not say was that those sinners would burn in that fire for ever and forever. In as much as you would like there to be verses which state that, there aren't any. Not one.
Which brings us to another conclusion. A conclusion based on another truth of scripture which you and Core Issue and numerous others do not like to confront...a truth which clearly is revealed throughout scripture, that man is not immortal, either in body, soul, or spirit, or in any other form you would like to present. This truth is based primarily on two undebatable truths. One, only God is immortal. Two, eternal life is given as a gift to the redeemed only...not to sinners. Thus the conclusion we must come to if we are willing to consider scripture in all its context without assumption and tradition spoiling the recipe, is that the sinner's fate in the lake of fire, Gehenna, a fire which no man can put out being unquenchable (the normal understanding of that word) , must be limited to the time appointed him as to the severity of the 'stripes', whether few or many, that is proportional to the punishment deserved. And in the end, he dies. Literally.
Now of course I cannot force you to agree with what I have presented above. You can disagree with it until the day you pass into eternity. But what you cannot do is convince me that what I have presented is not Biblical. Nor can you convince me that Jesus taught anything different. At least not without a "thus sayeth the Lord" as evidence in support. Thus far I have never seen that. And I believe that if you and others here were honest before man and God, you would admit as much.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
yes, it's very primary. It cannot get more primary.....the soul that sins will die. Did God need to qualify his words? I don't think so but he did add from dust you came, to dust you will return. Adam knew he was a living soul and what he was composed of, so did the entire watching universe. They also understood the sentence succinctly as did Satan yet he said to Eve, you will not surely die; the polar opposite.
We are left to choose who we will believe.
gadar perets
Well-Known Member
I totally agree with these words by Ellen G. White. The "testimony" of Isaiah 8:20 refers to the Ten Commandments. The "law" in that verse refers to Torah or the rest of YHWH's commandments, including His holy Feast Days. Concerning the seven annual sabbaths and holy convocations known collectively as the Feasts, Ellen G. White wrote, "If the children of Israel needed the benefit of these holy convocations in their time, how much more do we need them in these last days of peril and conflict!" - 6 Testimonies 39,40. Why, then, don't SDAs keep the Feasts?
Phoneman777
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As a Seventh-day Adventist, I don't mind his videos or his criticism. He's doing what he believes is right, however wrong he is about my faith. However, if he starts publishing encyclicals bragging "the church lit the fires of the Spanish inquisition" (like you know who), that would be a bit problematic for me LOL
Phoneman777
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Would you define a Christian "cult" as a group who departs from the teaching and example of Jesus?
Phoneman777
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Theologically, a cult is a group that claims to be part of a mainstream religion but rejects core teachings and beliefs thereof.
So yes, a Christian cult is one that claims to be Christian but does not adhere to biblical teaching on issues of salvation, who Christ is and who God is.
As with the SDA, they push salvation by works, identify Jesus as Michael the Archangel, deny spirits are eternal as in annihilation of the damned.
They make Ellen G White the arbitrator of the Bible, who gives Bible prophecy not found in the Bible.
Good question. I think personally that it's great to understand fully their significance as shadows and the means to a more complete appreciation of Christ's ministry as sacrifice, priest, prophet, mediator, and intercessor. However, actual observation of the feasts as a ritual I think is a matter of choice rather than obligation such as is the weekly Sabbath. Many SDAs do observe them, and the church itself does not upbraid them for doing so.
We do indeed. That is because only God, who is Spirit, is immortal. Thus the only immortal spirit. Humans it seems to us are excluded from possessing that rather exclusive and unique attribute.
Please forgive me, but I, born and raised and to the age of about 30 years a Seventh day Adventist, just CANNOT stomach the cowardice and hypocrisy, first of the SDA and next equally, the cowardice and hypocrisy of the evangelicals and others supposedly Protestants. I just despise the LOT.
Now everything the 'big churches' accuse and critisize the SDA of, THEY ARE GUILTY OF AS WELL.
I know, because I experienced it like no one else ever did.
HEAR THERE the silence!
Another living proof of what I am saying. Just HEAR the silence.
You can't hear it? GOD HEARS IT.
AND, you, hear it; listen to me, Gerhard Ebersöhn. And what you hear but say you don't hear, is the STONES Jesus said would call out : to you, ALL, his DEAF AND BLIND, confessing but living in denial, Church.
Now everything the 'big churches' accuse and critisize the SDA of, THEY ARE GUILTY OF AS WELL.
I know, because I experienced it like no one else ever did.
HEAR THERE the silence!
Another living proof of what I am saying. Just HEAR the silence.
You can't hear it? GOD HEARS IT.
AND, you, hear it; listen to me, Gerhard Ebersöhn. And what you hear but say you don't hear, is the STONES Jesus said would call out : to you, ALL, his DEAF AND BLIND, confessing but living in denial, Church.
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