Seventh-day Adventist
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Brakelite
Well-Known Member
This is true, however, there are several basic scriptural indications in favor of the Adventist position.I would agree except that I don't get to make such determinations. It will prove to be either a correct interpretation of God's will as expressed in His Word or an error.
1. Whoever received the mark of the beast, voluntarily submits to the authority of the beast.
2. A correct identification of the beast will bring light as to the nature of the beast's mark.
3. That mark, whatever it is, distinguishes the beast as separate and in direct opposition to the authority of God.
4. It must be a spiritual mark, made manifest by a physical response.
5. Those who do receive it, are clearly distinguishable from those who don't.
6. Those who don't, are identified in scripture as those who keep the commandments of God. (Revelation 14:12)
7. Those who receive the mark obviously do not keep God's commandments as they are excluded from heaven.
8. Those who do receive the mark persecute those who by keeping God commandments refuse the mark.
9. The beast considers his mark so sacred that he places a death sentence on those refusing his authority.
10. If those who have rejected His mark are keeping all God's 10 commandments, and those who are in Babylon, the global religious institution headed by the beast confess to keeping 9 of the commandments, what conclusion would you draw?
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Well, if by "I would agree" you thought I meant "I would agree that 'I would certainly not limit that to those who worship on Sunday instead of Saturday,'" then let me set the record straight:
I hold to the Protestant and Historicist view of the identification of the beast of Daniel and Revelation as the bishopry of Rome. I can do no other and yet preserve my own conscience.
I simply do not believe that that determination rests on my interpretation or authority.
We Adventists often refer to our view of eschatology as something objective and humanly logical, but I've come to believe that nothing could be further from the truth.
I can distinctly remember a time when my reasoning would not allow for an Adventist worldview, and the only thing that has changed in my perception is that I reached a point where I was staring the necessity of making a choice to be willing to do God's will right in the face (and I have come to understand many other wonderful things since then but I do not think my wisdom is extraordinary). And, bless God, I was able, by His amazing grace, to follow on to know Him. It is a decision every man has to make; some take a long time, and sometimes in virtually imperceptible degrees.
I don't truly understand what went on even in my own heart, much less do I presume to recognize the progress of others. I could quote dozens of Scripture references to support this, but suffice it to ask: When is the last time you saw or heard someone quote John 7:17 or Daniel 12:10?
For those of us who count on the righteousness of Christ day by day, it is not too humiliating a thing to admit that we count not ourselves to have apprehended, but for many who are hinging their hopes on an isolated, captive, assurance-based salvation encounter these are, indeed, hard sayings. Not that I reckon my own experience to be any more virtuous than even the greatest sinner. I have seen too much of what the LORD has, in His great mercy, been pleased to suffer in me.
I just came from a thread where the divinity of Christ is being debated as the most important issue a man can consider. I confess it brings me much grief to see such wasteful striving. I thought I would be less likely to suffer a salutary flogging if I mentioned it here, as off-topic as it is. It's just that with the delusion that will take the whole world by overwhelming surprise right around the corner, it is so deeply disappointing to see folks relishing arguments over things we can't possibly understand.
Have you (and I'm sure you have) given any thought to how short time is, in light of the latest projections of chronic, degenerative disease that threatens to steadily depopulate the world within a few decades? If Christ doesn't come back soon, we will have eaten, drank, and smoked ourselves into extinction with none "which are alive and remain" left to "be caught up to meet the LORD in the air." More and more of my generation are going down to diabetic, cancerous, and atherosclerotic graves every day.
I saw just a day or two ago someone rebuking another for wishing Jesus would come already because they had things they wanted to do before they leave this world. They can have my "things to do." I used to have a lot of trouble internalizing the "Even so, come, LORD Jesus" attitude. Not anymore, Brother. The only thing I'd care to wait for is that my unsaved dear ones be claimed. And I know God can accomplish that in an instant, so I say:
EVEN SO, COME, LORD JESUS!!!
(How's that for a ramble?)
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Nice to get stuff off the chest huh. What I was agreeing with was what you said, in effect, that in the final analysis, quote...It will prove to be either a correct interpretation of God's will as expressed in His Word or an error.Well, if by "I would agree" you thought I meant "I would agree that 'I would certainly not limit that to those who worship on Sunday instead of Saturday,'" then let me set the record straight:
I hold to the Protestant and Historicist view of the identification of the beast of Daniel and Revelation as the bishopry of Rome. I can do no other and yet preserve my own conscience.
I simply do not believe that that determination rests on my interpretation or authority.
We Adventists often refer to our view of eschatology as something objective and humanly logical, but I've come to believe that nothing could be further from the truth.
I can distinctly remember a time when my reasoning would not allow for an Adventist worldview, and the only thing that has changed in my perception is that I reached a point where I was staring the necessity of making a choice to be willing to do God's will right in the face (and I have come to understand many other wonderful things since then but I do not think my wisdom is extraordinary). And, bless God, I was able, by His amazing grace, to follow on to know Him. It is a decision every man has to make; some take a long time, and sometimes in virtually imperceptible degrees.
I don't truly understand what went on even in my own heart, much less do I presume to recognize the progress of others. I could quote dozens of Scripture references to support this, but suffice it to ask: When is the last time you saw or heard someone quote John 7:17 or Daniel 12:10?
For those of us who count on the righteousness of Christ day by day, it is not too humiliating a thing to admit that we count not ourselves to have apprehended, but for many who are hinging their hopes on an isolated, captive, assurance-based salvation encounter these are, indeed, hard sayings. Not that I reckon my own experience to be any more virtuous than even the greatest sinner. I have seen too much of what the LORD has, in His great mercy, been pleased to suffer in me.
I just came from a thread where the divinity of Christ is being debated as the most important issue a man can consider. I confess it brings me much grief to see such wasteful striving. I thought I would be less likely to suffer a salutary flogging if I mentioned it here, as off-topic as it is. It's just that with the delusion that will take the whole world by overwhelming surprise right around the corner, it is so deeply disappointing to see folks relishing arguments over things we can't possibly understand.
Have you (and I'm sure you have) given any thought to how short time is, in light of the latest projections of chronic, degenerative disease that threatens to steadily depopulate the world within a few decades? If Christ doesn't come back soon, we will have eaten, drank, and smoked ourselves into extinction with none "which are alive and remain" left to "be caught up to meet the LORD in the air." More and more of my generation are going down to diabetic, cancerous, and atherosclerotic graves every day.
I saw just a day or two ago someone rebuking another for wishing Jesus would come already because they had things they wanted to do before they leave this world. They can have my "things to do." I used to have a lot of trouble internalizing the "Even so, come, LORD Jesus" attitude. Not anymore, Brother. The only thing I'd care to wait for is that my unsaved dear ones be claimed. And I know God can accomplish that in an instant, so I say:
EVEN SO, COME, LORD JESUS!!!
(How's that for a ramble?)
And yes. Even secular elites can figure out where humanity is headed, hence the present "existential crisis", although their reasoning that our demise will be due to outside forces rather than our own stupid decisions, (and theirs') is terribly skew-wiff. Their boastful and arrogant proclamations that humans can now be "hacked" and controlled using under skin chips so those same elites can rule and become gods so reminds me of Babel. There are several areas of society that reflect satanic goals to destroy the image of God in man. Personally, like you, I really do not think God will tolerate this continuing confrontation for very much longer at all. His love for us, and the determination to not allow the enemy to impugn His character beyond a certain point compels Him to act. But. Big but. We aren't ready. Bigger but though. He can make us ready. He will do it. That's His promise. And it's coming soon . Not in some distant uncertain future as per popular hermeneutics, but soon, very soon.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
AMEN, Brother! I couldn't think of much to add to that.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
One more thing that is really getting to me is how how much younger the sick are getting and/or how much sicker the young are getting. People are walking around sick with no symptoms!
Aside from Brakelite's reliable insights, just some of my patented rambling.
@_wrangler likes to call them "streams of consciousness." I think he's much too kind - lol.
Pavel Mosko
Member
OK everybody I just got banned on Christian Forums for posting stuff against Seventh Day Adventists, aka SDA.
And its been maybe 2 years or so, since I've been on this site. The last time, was when I got a one month ban on the political board at Christian Forums for offending liberal atheists there.
And its been maybe 2 years or so, since I've been on this site. The last time, was when I got a one month ban on the political board at Christian Forums for offending liberal atheists there.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Don't feel bad. I got banned there for debating with a ravenous Adventist-hater.
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Pavel Mosko
Member
This is one of those things that I knew would happen eventually, and I would not normally be that aggressive for such things. Where I knew Adventists were a little weird but still considered them within the boundaries of Christianity. But all their antics over Sabbath and Sunday caused me to research more of what they believed. And I eventually became appalled, I heard some rumors of some things, but the more you dig with Adventism, the more appalled you get. So I actually believe now I have some calling towards Apologetics, and especially against them! I have always had some affinity for Apologetics, but Adventism I believe is probably the best-case study in why we need it. Things like Sunday worship have been settled in Christianity going back to the times of Apostles and Apostolic Fathers. That is why most Christians don't know much about why Christians do the things we do. And of course, the wedge nature of why they make this issue so important does not speak well of them, not when you consider the range of definitions given for the term "cult" by Walter Martin one of which is a group that makes a peripheral issue polarizing.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
I guess I'm a little foggy on what you mean by "antics" and "peripheral issues."
Most of Christs teachings were about the way in which we are to keep God's law.
The Jews had it, but they got way off track on how it was supposed to be applied from the heart. They never got Deuteronomy 5:29.
Most Adventists don't rave about the Sabbath; most just try to keep it out of love to Christ, the LORD of the Sabbath.
The most effective teaching is done by example.
Sure, there is evangelizing work to do and, to be equally sure, the Sabbath is excellent news to the socio-economic climate in which we find ourselves today. If you think the Sabbath is not good news, you should maybe read up on Dan Buettner's Blue Zones research at NatGeo. He found that the only one of the Blue Zones that is perpetuating its vitality and happiness is the one that stops what they are doing once a week and takes 16 hours to gaze headlong into the face of Jesus.
There are a lot of misguided assumptions made by folks who are dead set on warring against the 4th commandment. We didn't put the Sabbath commandment in the middle of the ten commandments—God did that. I'm well aware that the ten commandments have been slowly shelved, but I personally remember a time as a child in the Southern Baptist church that the ten commandments weren't poo-pooed by hardly anyone—even hardened criminals knew their worth as a moral code. Folks can grab the new baton and rail all they want—I was there. And I had all of the other trappings that make for being "appalled" by Adventism.
I'm not sure that taking up apologetics for the purpose of being against something isn't just a little backward, but folks gotta do what they gotta do, I guess. But the "us-and-them" mentality has never ended well for anyone that I know of.
As far as the "appalling" stuff goes, this definitely isn't my first rodeo, so... you'll know where to find me. Don't expect me to be too intimidated by the glut of information that circles the Interweb, though. Most of it is sloppy, uninspired, and unabashedly biased.
Again, nice to have you onboard!
Pavel Mosko
Member
By antics, I refer to the passive aggressive attempts to proselytize using the Sabbath and Sunday issue. Some of the Adventists are so bad, they really do everything in their power try to instill some kind of fear or paranoia in you over it. And it is never really clear why that would be based on the New Testament, the epistles of saint Paul especially. The reason itself comes from Adventist teachings and visions like the Three Angels Messages, the Investigative Judgement, and the Great Controversy.
Peripheral issues in this context refers to what some would term "The Essentials of Faith". That is more of a Protestant Calvinist term and concept, I am more Eastern Christian in official theology at least as far as paradigm goes. I'm talking Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, as well as having a background in Assyrian Church of the East. But I agree with it as far as message board participation and Ecumenicism is concerned.
But basically I would not dogmatize days of worship, per saint Paul's epistles especially two passages in particular that speak about doing so concerning "Sabbaths, new moons and festivals". But Sunday is pretty important to the witness of the ancient church and how they did things so if a group tries to make Sunday into something evil, and claims things via revelation then we do got major problems.
But anyway for the record, I'm OK with groups like Messianic Jews that somehow have a mission to preach to nonbelieving Jews and do things like worship on Saturday etc. I have a friend who is a Messianic rabbi etc. I do however take exception when folks start to bring in all the Conspiracy theory stuff into Church history. Like the Messianics sometimes want to make Anti-Semiticism a grand unifying theory of Church history that has a lot of big problems, most of which down plays or completely ignores a lot of the big problems going on in the ancient Church with heresy, persecution, the tendency of the ancient Christians to want all worship together in the various cities "as one Body of Christ", the changing demographic shifts in Jews and Gentiles, and also anti-gentile sentiments in Judaism itself.
Pavel Mosko
Member
Well, the first instance of this I have seen has been with apologetics against Islam. There is a Coptic priest that has something like a 60 million dollar price on his head for speaking out against Islam. He does so because in Islam they believe their faith is the most beautiful, true and noble Faith in the World. The only way to really get through to them is to deliver "a short sharp shock".
Now Seventh Day Adventism is not as bad as Islam, but the whole hit and run tactics thing does get old. And I kind of see the thing as a plea for help. 30 years ago, I was in school to be a mental health counselor. A goal I did not succeed at due to not having much aptitde for mathematics and took a hit in the stats class of my degree. But I still have retained my old background. Anyway concerning topics like suicide, people often act in various ways and that is one of these signs to look for. Anyway I see the Adventists doing this sort of things likewise.
On top of that, I would point to the entire history of Christian teaching. If you analyze the New Testament, I think it has been quoted that as much as 62% of it was written motivated to correct some kind of heresy or error in praxis. This is even true with the Gospel of John, which was written when the Docetics were in full swing and the emphasis of "The Word was made Flesh and dwelt among us" is a footnote message against that. This goes on into the Creeds, and ends up going on into the early Church Fathers writings etc.
Hobie
Well-Known Member
Well then, the issue is what is the truth and where can it be found, it is in Gods Word. So what church follows what God says, most dont bother to follow the Ten Commandments because the Sabbath is there, others dont want to hold that God is coming to resurrect the saints and take us at the Second Coming to heaven because they've allowed error to creep in, and we can just go through all the denominations. The scripture is Gods truth to us and we must allow the Holy Spirit to guide us into its truth, not follow traditions of man.
So what do Adventist believe, well, the following list comes from Steve Wohlberg's (an SDA pastor and theologian) website.
His page entitled is "We Believe..." and I think it speaks accurately of the general SDA attitude on what we hold and believe...
1. The Bible (Old and New Testaments) is fully inspired by God, and is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness (2 Tim. 3:16)
2. God created our world in six literal, 24-hour days, and rested on the seventh day (Gen. 1; 2:1-3; Exodus 20:11).
3. Satan (a fallen angel), led Eve into sin (Gen. 3:1-6; Isaiah 14:12-14; Rev. 12:9)
4. Jesus Christ is the Messiah of Israel and the Savior of the world (1 John 4:14)
5. Jesus Christ has revealed to the entire human family God's loving character (John 3:16; 14:9)
6. Jesus Christ is fully God and fully Man (John 1:1-3, 14; 1 Tim. 2:5)
7. Jesus was born of a virgin and died on the cross for the sins "of the whole world" (Matthew 1:23; 1 Cor. 15:3; 1 John 2:2)
8. On the third day (Sunday morning), Jesus rose from the dead, as predicted in advance by the Scriptures (Luke 24; 1 Cor. 15:3,4)
9. God is not prejudiced against any race, color, or nation (Acts 17:26; Rom. 2:11; Rev. 7:9)
10. Eternal life is a free gift through Jesus Christ (Rom. 6:23)
11. God's love brings a sinner to repentance (Rom. 2:4)
12. God calls all to repent and believe in Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21)
13. We must be born again by the power of the Holy Spirit (John 3:6,7)
14. Believers in Jesus should be baptized by immersion (Mat. 3:16,17; Mark 16:15; Acts 2:38,41)
15. We should follow God's Word above man's traditions (Mat. 4:4; Col. 2:8)
16. We should treat everyone with love and respect (Eph. 4:25, 5:1, 9)
17. We should keep ourselves "unspotted from the world" (James 1:27)
18. We are living in "the time of the end" (Daniel 12:4,10)
19. By His grace and motivated by love, God's end-time people will keep the Ten Commandments and the faith of Jesus Christ (John 14:15; Rev. 14:12)
20. Christians should endure tribulation "to the end" (Mat. 24:13; Acts 14:22)
21. The Antichrist of prophecy is "already in the world" (1 John 2:18; 4:3)
22. The major Protestant Reformers were correct about the Antichrist.
23. Jesus Christ is the only Mediator between God and fallen humanity (1 Timothy 2:5)
24. Jesus will not return secretly, but openly and visibly for all to see (Mat. 24:26,27,30,31)
25. There will be "a resurrection of the dead, both the just and the unjust" (Acts 24:15; John 5:28,29)
26. Jesus Christ is "the seed of Abraham" (Galatians 3:16)
27. True believers in Jesus Christ - Jews and Gentiles - become part of Abraham's seed, "the Israel of God" (Gal. 3:28,29; 6:14-16)
28. Our final home is the New Jerusalem (Hebrews 12:22-24; Rev. 21:1-4, 10-27)
29. All the lost will end up in "the lake of fire, which is the second death" (Revelation 20:14,15)
30. God will make a new heaven and a new earth for His people to live in, where righteousness dwells (2 Peter 3:9-14)
31. The truth of the Bible is bigger than any church or denomination.
32. The Bible is our final authority.
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And because the Bible is our final authority, the doctrine of the "Investigative Judgment" is not to be found in the Bible, neither is the year 1844. This doctrine was omitted in your list, but is an integral part of SDA teachings.
- #1. REASONS WHY THE INVESTIGATIVE JUDGEMENT IS CONTRARY TO SCRIPTURE
- Introduction 1
- #1.02 Because it is Contrary to Scriptural Principles of Interpretation
- #1.04 Because God is All Knowing
- #1.06 Because God has Chosen his People for Salvation
- #1.08 Because we were Predestined to Eternal Life
- #1.10 Because we were Chosen Before the Foundation of the World
- #1.12 Because the Spirit of Christ Dwells in all Saved Christians
- #1.14 Because we should not Believe that Christ is in the Secret Chambers
- #1.16 Because Jesus now has an Unchangeable Priesthood
- #1.18 Because Christ Entered the Heavenly Sanctuary Before the Book of Hebrews was Written
- #1.20 Because the Full Gospel was Preached to and by the Apostles with no Mention of the 1844 Return of Christ
- #1.22 Because Believer's Sins are not Remembered After they Become Partakers of the New Covenant
- #1.24 Because no one Knows the Day of Christ's Return
- #1.26 Because Jesus Himself Does Not Know the Day of His Return
- #1.28 Conclusion
THE INVESTIGATIVE JUDGEMENT REFUTED
This bible study is a scriptural refutation of the Investigative Judgment teaching based on Daniel 8:14.
www.logosapostolic.org
Also, the Antichrist will appear in the future, and the Protestant Reformers were clearly mistaken is calling the pope (or the papacy) the Antichrist. Of course this is not a critical matter but it violates Revelation 13.
So while 99% of what you listed is biblical, there is a small percentage that ruins everything. Also Ellen G. White is not generally regarded as a prophetess by most Christians.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Didn't those whose who had Jesus murdered quote scripture?.....I s'pose that was biblical!
Didn't the slave owners in the South of your country justify their practice by quoting scripture?....I s'pose that was biblical!
Does present day Israel persecute the Palestinians because they quote scripture as to their right for the land....I s'pose that's biblical!
Aren't you righter than others in your view because you can quote scripture.....I s'pose that's biblical!
From my perspective, this is the crux of the SDA bugaboo. It's obvious Satan is behind this maneuver, perverting resurrection Sunday into the mark of the beast and deceiving us into flying that flag. Just another day at the office for the prince of darkness.
Perverting? Wow!!!! It is one of the 10 commandments. Jesus NEVER said to celebrate His resurrection, just to commemorate His death by Communion.
Again, I maintain, if it doesn't matter what day it is, why worry 'bout it?
Again, I maintain, if it doesn't matter what day it is, why worry 'bout it?
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