Should Christians Always Be Healed?

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Hidden In Him

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Sorry bro

People claiming that EVERYONE will be healed all they have to do is have faith. They are a danger to the church and to people they are teaching.


No need for apologies, bro, and I understand your position. I actually understand everyone's position here in some ways. But now, that is not actually the position I take. Quite the opposite. I was simply showing you that there are reasons for not simply becoming despondent and losing hope. Read my Post #558, the second response. If I were to have given up hope, I would not have been in a position to hear God show me what I needed to hear on that issue, and I would likely have had to have an unnecessary operation. If my condition had been more serious, who knows if I might have had a surgery that actually made me worse. I know of several people who have had nasal surgery, and lived to find out that it only made their condition worse.
 

Hidden In Him

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"The Lord created medicines out of the earth and the sensible will not despise them...By them the physician heals and takes away pain; the pharmacist makes a mixture from them...My child, when you are sick, pray to the Lord and He will heal you. Then give the physician his place,...for you need him too (Sirach 38:4, 7, 9, 12)."

I think Jesus would endorse this teaching. Too bad that teaching is absent from our Bible. No, I'm not advocating the inclusion of Sirach in our OT Canon.


Glorious, and I am in full agreement with it. I think it's the proper way to approach things, given the few qualifiers I mention in my previous posts.
 

Paul Christensen

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It is not excuse, it is the truth; you eliminate the 3 I talked about, and you will be healed every time! It does not mater if you have an incurable sickness, that the doctors gave up on, Jesus as already healed you more than 2000 years ago, all we need to do is take it by faith! By the way God is bound bty His own Name to heal you....One of Gods name is Jehovah Rophi - the Lord that healeth thee! God is bound by his promise to heal you "God is no respecter of persons, what He has done for one (if He healed one), He WILL do for another (He WILL heal another)!"

There is a forth block that I forgot, and you reminded me of with your 3ed point!

4) Not giving God glory for your healing can block the healing, and allow the devil to put it back on you!
Got any NT references to back up your four points?
 

Bob Estey

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But Bob, if the above were all there was to it, James would have simply said, "Just repent, and God will heal you." But He said more than this, correct?
The Bible says a whole lot of things. But in the end, two things matter: Love the Lord with all your heart, mind, and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself.
 

dev553344

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Well I'm not saying there is no need of physicians. :) As per my previous post, there are numerous instances where a little wisdom regarding the physical side of things can be all you really beed. But like all professions, sometimes doctors are not always as good as they could be, so it is better to rely on God first and foremost. I'm guessing most doctors would have told me I needed surgery, and that would have been needless and expensive.

But I am all in favor of going to doctors, so long as one also uses a little wisdom and doesn't rely upon them exclusively, and forget that God is the Great Physician.
I agree. I had a visitation from the Holy Spirit in power once when I was delusional and didn't know. He told me to see a doctor. And not denying the Holy Spirit I did so. And I was diagnosed with schizophrenia and put on meds. For 10 years I lived a good life because of it. And had an episode that was bad after that and now on different meds and am stable again.

But for a time I relied on doctors because of my visitation of the Holy Spirit. God then showed me that I could not solely rely on them and needed to use my own discretion when taking advice.

I recently lost 25 lbs and didn't try to. The doctor said if I had lost anymore weight he was going to check for a tumor. I am on meds that make me hungry too so he probably should have already been checking for a tumor. I have since gained the weight back and I believe God may have healed me from cancer.

My brother had pneumonia and as a result suffered a heart attack. He died in the hospital and they brought him back after 15 mins. They said he would just die and be brain dead. If somehow he recovered he would have brain damage. He miraculously recovered and is now getting out of the hospital with no brain damage.
 
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Hidden In Him

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And I feel, it agrees, for we judge ourselves when the conviction comes, so that we are not judged because of condemnation!

LoL! Forgive me for chuckling a little, as it seems you are holding on to that position for everything it's worth : )

But now, I still think this totally contradicts what the passage is telling you. The reason physical judgments were coming upon the early church Christians was because they were walking in disobedience and NOT repenting of it. Hence it follows that they were not coming under any conviction either. The problem is not with His children feeling conviction, it is with them NOT feeling any conviction and not repenting. This is when God's judgment comes, and for those who never did feel any conviction, the result was sometimes death (See Revelation 2:20-23).
But, I feel, the point is lost here. Bad things happen, people don't always receive there healing...

No. I think the proper teaching is that bad things happen because people sin and do not repent.
All I need is to know what the Bible says for MY situation; all I need to know is that I can walk in health according to the Word! I don't need to explain why someone else did not receive their healing, I don't know where they are at in faith, or what is going on in their life.

But what if sin or a lack of wisdom of some sort is the cause of someone's physical condition, and the Lord is trying to get that over to you, or them? A famous Faith quote is "My people perish for lack of wisdom."
I can't answer if someone in under judgment... All I can do is trust the Word of God is true, and take it for my own life.

Ah, but you see, the New Testament church could. They were often pinpointing exactly what the problem was, and telling the person, so that they could make the necessary changes to be healed or avert judgment. That's one of my biggest problems with the excesses in the modern Faith movement. Without realizing it, they create a different religion; one based solely on principles and formulas rather than hearing from God specifically about specific situations, and what the specific solutions need to be to solve the problem.
 

Hidden In Him

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My friends, I am gracefully bowing out of this conversation; Paul says don't get caught up in futile arguments. The point I have been trying to get across is getting lost, that point is it does not matter what experience you, me, or someone else may have, the word of God is final authority!

Well blessings to you, and I appreciate the discussion. I think you were the one who inspired me to start the thread. I disagree that it is a futile argument, because I think healing and how to properly receive it (and not just believe we have) is a very important issue.

But on things like this I don't hold things over people's heads. I let people be free to believe whatever it is they want to. I encourage you in your faith. I would just add that wisdom in matters makes an excellent companion to faith in many instances.

God bless,
- H
 

Hidden In Him

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The Bible says a whole lot of things. But in the end, two things matter: Love the Lord with all your heart, mind, and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself.

Well I agree, and this is what you would call an overriding principle in everything we should do. I just think we disagree on how the specifics of receiving forgiveness from one another and thus receiving healing from God actually takes place.
 

Hidden In Him

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I agree. I had a visitation from the Holy Spirit in power once when I was delusional and didn't know. He told me to see a doctor. And not denying the Holy Spirit I did so. And I was diagnosed with schizophrenia and put on meds. For 10 years I lived a good life because of it. And had an episode that was bad after that and now on different meds and am stable again.

But for a time I relied on doctors because of my visitation of the Holy Spirit. God then showed me that I could not solely rely on them and needed to use my own discretion when taking advice.

I recently lost 25 lbs and didn't try to. The doctor said if I had lost anymore weight he was going to check for a tumor. I am on meds that make me hungry too so he probably should have already been checking for a tumor. I have since gained the weight back and I believe God may have healed me from cancer.

My brother had pneumonia and as a result suffered a heart attack. He died in the hospital and they brought him back after 15 mins. They said he would just die and be brain dead. If somehow he recovered he would have brain damage. He miraculously recovered and is now getting out of the hospital with no brain damage.


Wonderful testimony! :)
 
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Paul Christensen

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I would agree with most of this, Paul, except with that the reasons should remain something known only to God Himself.

As a charismatic, do you believe we have the ability to find out what His specific will is regarding an individual person or situation, or no? Maybe this is the question I should be asking more people here, as it has great significance.
Yes. The problem is that nine out of every ten impressions we get are from the world, flesh, or the devil. This means that being able to determine whether the impression we get is really the Holy Spirit giving an answer to our question, or whether it comes from the fleshly desire to be healed or have the person we are praying for healed, or it could come from the devil in order to deceive us through his lies.

We have video clips of some of the most prominent prophets who were adamant that God told them that Donald Trump would certainly win the U.S. election. Some were so sure that they told Sid Rolf that they had absolutely no doubt they had heard the voice of God. Yet they were all proved wrong. So did God make a mistake, or was the impression from a difference source (the flesh or the devil)?

So, how are we going to know whether God is going to heal a specific sick person when we ask Him the question. Peter asked Jesus a question about what was going to happen to John and Jesus answered, "What is that to you? Follow me!" If one got an answer like that, would he or she accept that as the word of God? If they are emotionally involved in seeing the person healed, they may not accept an answer like that. Even Nathan the prophet got it wrong with David when he answered him about building the Temple. He said, "Do whatever is in your heart". As Nathan walked away, God spoke to him and told him to tell David that he was not to build the temple after all, but his son will do the job." So how did Nathan know that it was God who spoke to him? We are not told, so we don't know the difference between Nathan's own thoughts, and God speaking to his heart.

So there doesn't seem to be a user's manual about hearing God's voice and being able to distinguish it from our own thoughts and desires. Even if a person hears and audible voice, how is that person going to know whether it is the voice of the Holy Spirit or a deceiving demon posing as the Holy Spirit?

The only real clue we get is from Hebrews 5:13-14:

"For everyone who lives on milk is still an infant, inexperienced in the message of righteousness. But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained their senses to distinguish good from evil."

I believe that the training we need is continued fellowship with God in prayer, and extensive on-going study of the Old and New Testament Scriptures. The maturity is not a five-minute affair. It has been said that it can take 20 years to give the perfect sermon because it can take 20 years to prepare the man to give it. Paul said that church leadership is not to be given to novices, lest they be lifted up with pride and fall into the condemnation of the devil.

It was in 1969 when the Holy Spirit made God real to me and started me on the road of fellowship with Him. I was just 21 years old. Over the years I have thought that God has spoken to me, and I even wrote a book detailing my experiences of hearing God's voice. But now, after 53 years, I am still not sure that when I receive something that seems like God's voice, that it really is His voice. So, if after having constant fellowship with the Lord in prayer and His Word for all these years I am still not sure, I have my doubts that someone who has been in the faith only a few years is really hearing God's voice when they tell us that they are.

It is interesting though that when I have a discussion with the Lord concerning an issue, a verse of Scripture that I have never memorised will come to me that totally puts me in the right direction of thought about it. Sometimes it is a verse of Scripture that I haven't read or thought about for 40 years and didn't know it was in the Bible until I went and looked it up. One night in the early hours, I was woken up with a reference from Psalms repeating over and over in my mind. I couldn't go back to sleep until I took my bedside Bible and looked it up. It was the exact answer to an issue that I was struggling with that week. When I was doing my M.div, I would ask the Lord's help when writing an essay, and after writing one draft, I would send it off, and when it came back it was graded at 95%! That happened with all the essays I wrote, plus my main research paper, over the three years I took to complete the degree. Did the Lord help me to write those essays? I think He did, because how can every essay I wrote got 95%? That wouldn't have been possible unless the Holy Spirit helped me put the words on the page. I have written a few devotional books, and each one has started with an idea coming strongly to my mind, and as I start writing, the words come almost like a prophecy, and flows on until the flow stops. When I read it through for typos and errors, I am amazed over what I wrote. It seems that I am reading a book that someone else wrote! Is that the result of the Holy Spirit helping me with the words and ideas? I think so. It is interesting that as I would make a point in the book, the exact consistent verse or verses of Scripture would come to me that was the exact Scripture confirmation. This makes me think that the inner voice of the Holy Spirit and the written Scriptures work in tandem with each other. Well, that is how it is with me, anyway.
 

dev553344

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Yes. The problem is that nine out of every ten impressions we get are from the world, flesh, or the devil. This means that being able to determine whether the impression we get is really the Holy Spirit giving an answer to our question, or whether it comes from the fleshly desire to be healed or have the person we are praying for healed, or it could come from the devil in order to deceive us through his lies.

We have video clips of some of the most prominent prophets who were adamant that God told them that Donald Trump would certainly win the U.S. election. Some were so sure that they told Sid Rolf that they had absolutely no doubt they had heard the voice of God. Yet they were all proved wrong. So did God make a mistake, or was the impression from a difference source (the flesh or the devil)?

So, how are we going to know whether God is going to heal a specific sick person when we ask Him the question. Peter asked Jesus a question about what was going to happen to John and Jesus answered, "What is that to you? Follow me!" If one got an answer like that, would he or she accept that as the word of God? If they are emotionally involved in seeing the person healed, they may not accept an answer like that. Even Nathan the prophet got it wrong with David when he answered him about building the Temple. He said, "Do whatever is in your heart". As Nathan walked away, God spoke to him and told him to tell David that he was not to build the temple after all, but his son will do the job." So how did Nathan know that it was God who spoke to him? We are not told, so we don't know the difference between Nathan's own thoughts, and God speaking to his heart.

So there doesn't seem to be a user's manual about hearing God's voice and being able to distinguish it from our own thoughts and desires. Even if a person hears and audible voice, how is that person going to know whether it is the voice of the Holy Spirit or a deceiving demon posing as the Holy Spirit?

The only real clue we get is from Hebrews 5:13-14:

"For everyone who lives on milk is still an infant, inexperienced in the message of righteousness. But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained their senses to distinguish good from evil."

I believe that the training we need is continued fellowship with God in prayer, and extensive on-going study of the Old and New Testament Scriptures. The maturity is not a five-minute affair. It has been said that it can take 20 years to give the perfect sermon because it can take 20 years to prepare the man to give it. Paul said that church leadership is not to be given to novices, lest they be lifted up with pride and fall into the condemnation of the devil.

It was in 1969 when the Holy Spirit made God real to me and started me on the road of fellowship with Him. I was just 21 years old. Over the years I have thought that God has spoken to me, and I even wrote a book detailing my experiences of hearing God's voice. But now, after 53 years, I am still not sure that when I receive something that seems like God's voice, that it really is His voice. So, if after having constant fellowship with the Lord in prayer and His Word for all these years I am still not sure, I have my doubts that someone who has been in the faith only a few years is really hearing God's voice when they tell us that they are.

It is interesting though that when I have a discussion with the Lord concerning an issue, a verse of Scripture that I have never memorised will come to me that totally puts me in the right direction of thought about it. Sometimes it is a verse of Scripture that I haven't read or thought about for 40 years and didn't know it was in the Bible until I went and looked it up. One night in the early hours, I was woken up with a reference from Psalms repeating over and over in my mind. I couldn't go back to sleep until I took my bedside Bible and looked it up. It was the exact answer to an issue that I was struggling with that week. When I was doing my M.div, I would ask the Lord's help when writing an essay, and after writing one draft, I would send it off, and when it came back it was graded at 95%! That happened with all the essays I wrote, plus my main research paper, over the three years I took to complete the degree. Did the Lord help me to write those essays? I think He did, because how can every essay I wrote got 95%? That wouldn't have been possible unless the Holy Spirit helped me put the words on the page. I have written a few devotional books, and each one has started with an idea coming strongly to my mind, and as I start writing, the words come almost like a prophecy, and flows on until the flow stops. When I read it through for typos and errors, I am amazed over what I wrote. It seems that I am reading a book that someone else wrote! Is that the result of the Holy Spirit helping me with the words and ideas? I think so. It is interesting that as I would make a point in the book, the exact consistent verse or verses of Scripture would come to me that was the exact Scripture confirmation. This makes me think that the inner voice of the Holy Spirit and the written Scriptures work in tandem with each other. Well, that is how it is with me, anyway.
The Holy Spirit has fruits. Not that God uses them all the time to talk to us. But the fruits of the Holy Spirit are from Galatians 5:22-23.
 

VictoryinJesus

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Apparently you don’t realize. For some odd reason most people believe the scripture is talking about physical healing. Like blindness deafening, cancer, restoring of limbs.

After all that time posting healing scriptures and asking if God wants everyone healed, that was the conclusion I come to in regards to healing. that what I needed healed most of all went far deeper than the surface of the physical.

For example how a person can outwardly appear strong and untouchable, yet brokenness is hidden inwardly. Or how a person can appear broken and weak outwardly, yet strengthened inwardly. like children who go through traumatic illnesses never complaining how it isn’t fair or how they have been short-changed by circumstances. Instead their perspective is appreciation for every day given.

agree about the restoring of limbs. Seems significant how Jesus Christ healed the withered hand…showing how even that which has been withered; can also be restored. Like:A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it. And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture. Luke 8:5-6
 

Bob Estey

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Well I agree, and this is what you would call an overriding principle in everything we should do. I just think we disagree on how the specifics of receiving forgiveness from one another and thus receiving healing from God actually takes place.
I think that if you repent, you are okay. You don't have to wait for me to forgive you. If you've repented, it's my responsibility to forgive you, isn't it?
 

Hidden In Him

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Yes. The problem is that nine out of every ten impressions we get are from the world, flesh, or the devil. This means that being able to determine whether the impression we get is really the Holy Spirit giving an answer to our question, or whether it comes from the fleshly desire to be healed or have the person we are praying for healed, or it could come from the devil in order to deceive us through his lies.


Yes. I think many would view my expectations as unrealistic, but I'm not really an advocate of going by impressions. I am an advocate of the Holy Spirit making His will known through the gifts. This appears to be what was referenced in passages like 1 Corinthians 5:1-5.

1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

For excommunication to take place here, the implication is that the Spirit Himself would excommunicate the man, as referenced by "In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, deliver such a one to Satan." Paul's reference to being "present in spirit" appears to be a reference to "beholding" them in the Spirit supernaturally, as he makes reference to in Colossians, in which case he was telling them that the Spirit of God was governing the entire affair, He Himself would see to the excommunication with all present, and all in a agreement with what the Spirit was saying.
We have video clips of some of the most prominent prophets who were adamant that God told them that Donald Trump would certainly win the U.S. election. Some were so sure that they told Sid Rolf that they had absolutely no doubt they had heard the voice of God. Yet they were all proved wrong. So did God make a mistake, or was the impression from a difference source (the flesh or the devil)?

Ugh. Don't remind me. With all due respect to those who think the prophecies will be fulfilled in 2024, I will not go too heavy on this, but this right here shines light on the problem. For the church to move in what she needs to, we are going to have to draw much closer than we have in the past. If what amounts to manifestations of the "gifts' are fraudulent, we are still a long ways from living out New Testament Christianity.
So, how are we going to know whether God is going to heal a specific sick person when we ask Him the question. Peter asked Jesus a question about what was going to happen to John and Jesus answered, "What is that to you? Follow me!" If one got an answer like that, would he or she accept that as the word of God? If they are emotionally involved in seeing the person healed, they may not accept an answer like that.

I could give a whole teaching here on that this is what Revelation 3:14-22 predicts is going to happen when the Lord enters His church again in earnest. When we finally "sup" with Him in true spiritual communion like the early church did, He is going to "spew out" the form of Christianity we have been offering Him as FAR too lukewarm and distasteful to Him. We just won't know it until He begins speaking to us directly again, through the gifts of the Spirit, and begins cleaning house and revealing what is truly pleasing to Him and what is not.
So there doesn't seem to be a user's manual about hearing God's voice and being able to distinguish it from our own thoughts and desires. Even if a person hears and audible voice, how is that person going to know whether it is the voice of the Holy Spirit or a deceiving demon posing as the Holy Spirit?

The only real clue we get is from Hebrews 5:13-14:

"For everyone who lives on milk is still an infant, inexperienced in the message of righteousness. But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained their senses to distinguish good from evil."

Good verse. As already alluded to, I believe the manual is the entire New Testament, but it will finally need to be without compromise, in keeping with the way they were originally operating.
I believe that the training we need is continued fellowship with God in prayer, and extensive on-going study of the Old and New Testament Scriptures. The maturity is not a five-minute affair.

Agreed. I think it was you who said the Lord will not confirm inaccurate teaching, and right now that may still be the principle thing.
It was in 1969 when the Holy Spirit made God real to me and started me on the road of fellowship with Him. I was just 21 years old.

So was I. Lookie there! We have more in common than we thought, Lol.
It was the exact answer to an issue that I was struggling with that week.

I have dreams that will do that, but I digress.
That happened with all the essays I wrote, plus my main research paper, over the three years I took to complete the degree. Did the Lord help me to write those essays? I think He did, because how can every essay I wrote got 95%? That wouldn't have been possible unless the Holy Spirit helped me put the words on the page.

Same sort of thing happened to me in college. I would ask Him to help me for exams, but I kinda hated half the stuff I was taking because I couldn't get my head out of the Bible. So I would wait till the last minute and then ask Him to help me cram. It worked, though (Not something to tell the youth these days, LoL).

Good post. Thanks for sharing.
 
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Hidden In Him

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I think that if you repent, you are okay. You don't have to wait for me to forgive you. If you've repented, it's my responsibility to forgive you, isn't it?

Yes, but what if you (or someone in your position) refuses to? That's the issue at hand here. Have you truly "repented" if you refuse to publicly ask for forgiveness?
 

Bob Estey

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Yes, but what if you (or someone in your position) refuses to? That's the issue at hand here. Have you truly "repented" if you refuse to publicly ask for forgiveness?
I don't think you need to ask forgiveness. I've sinned a million times or more. Do I have to have to apologize a million times to each and every person affected by my sin? That could be ten million apologies. I see nothing in the Bible that says I need to do that. The Bible tells us to repent forgive. There have been times I've felt a need to apologize for something I've done, and felt far better after I did, but not for every single sin.
 

Hidden In Him

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I don't think you need to ask forgiveness. I've sinned a million times or more. Do I have to have to apologize a million times to each and every person affected by my sin? That could be ten million apologies.

That sounds like a few too many, LoL. :)
I see nothing in the Bible that says I need to do that. The Bible tells us to repent forgive. There have been times I've felt a need to apologize for something I've done, and felt far better after I did, but not for every single sin.

I just think you are applying the Bible over into your own time and the modern lifestyle rather than letting your lifestyle be conformed to New Testament Christianity. But I understand it. You're not the only one who does this. I view it as a common problem throughout most of Christianity today.
 

Bob Estey

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That sounds like a few too many, LoL. :)


I just think you are applying the Bible over into your own time and the modern lifestyle rather than letting your lifestyle be conformed to New Testament Christianity. But I understand it. You're not the only one who does this. I view it as a common problem throughout most of Christianity today.
No, I think I try to obey the Lord's commandments, without adding extra ones. You might remember the Pharisees added extra ones, and it didn't work.
 

Mayflower

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My friends, I am gracefully bowing out of this conversation; Paul says don't get caught up in futile arguments. The point I have been trying to get across is getting lost, that point is it does not mater what experience you, me, or someone else may have, the word of God is final authority! I will continue to believe the word of God - and continue to walk in perfect health until the day I go home. And you can also; if you don't put God in a box by saying that healing in only spiritual healing. Have Faith in God! Have Faith in His Word!

God Bless You All!

Thanks for your thoughts! Bless you, brother!
 
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