Should we as Christians support the State of Israel ?

[Aunty Jane]

It’s a sad day indeed for “Christians” to be wanting to take these things into their own hands.....where is God for those who put their faith in sinful men with weapons of mass destruction? What outcome can be expected? World peace?......World destruction more like it. Is that what God foretold? Is that what we can expect if humans don’t step in and take nuclear weapons out of the hands of others, when they are the only ones who ever actually used them on other humans? Isn’t that hypocrisy?

Why do we think that God never gave dominion of the human race to humans in the first place? He gave the other creatures over to man’s control, but he never gave power to humans over one another. God was to be the Sovereign Ruler....he was the one to make the laws governing humankind. Evil was not to even be known among them, so as long as they remained obedient, a wonderful future awaited them. But that is not what happened......

Free will means that no human has the right to impose their will on any other....All are created equal...remember? All are to submit to God’s will.....he alone is incorruptible.

When you give sinful humans power over other sinful humans it corrupts them to their core.....history has shown time and again that this is true....what dictatorship ever succeeded in doing anything but create slaves for the one acting as their Master?...often cruel and demanding......merciless and unfeeling....elevating himself above everyone else.

Is this situation any different? How much does propaganda incite the kind of feelings that they are designed to elicit by the one who is behind the scenes laughing at the gullibility he can manipulate in his unwitting servants.
Satan, as the “angel of light” is having his way with you and you have swallowed it all......being led by your faulty patriotic emotions to your own demise. I pray you wake up before it is too late. Patriotism with its violent reactions and peaceful Christianity are incompatible. You cannot serve the Prince of Peace with a weapon in your hand. (Matt 5:43-44)

This world is about to experience the greatest tribulation in all its history....how do you suppose that is going to happen? What is it that will set mankind against one another in a way as it has never seen before? Are we seeing the groundswell around the world? It’s a warning....take heed because once the end comes, there will be no way to jump ship at the last minute.

Those putting their faith in corrupt men will see that they should have put their faith in the one who told us that this was all going to happen....the only one who will gain a victory here is God himself, and those who have obeyed the teachings, and followed the leadership, of his Son.

Don’t be among those Jesus whom spoke about in Matt 7:21-23.....at the judgment time they will be claiming Jesus as their Lord, and trying to make excuses for why Jesus says......”I never knew you, depart from me you lawless ones”.
Whose laws are they breaking? Man’s or God’s?

Time is running out.....

 

[doctrox]

Don't go to 'church'! Stay home and STUDY the Bible so you don't burn in Hell.

This is "the church" - right here, right now. So let's "STUDY the Bible."

We are to be “ambassadors for Christ” (2 Cor 5:18-20) and ambassadors do not meddle in the politics of the nations they are sent to to represent their nations government.

Indeed. Jesus was not a politician.

You are trying to bless the wrong “Israel”....

Unless you know what the Bible says about who God defines as “Israel” you won’t know the difference.

and

Those who want to serve the political nation of Israel today are giving their support to the wrong “Israel”

Spot on!

You have no foundation for your claim that Christians can be anything but neutral in the affairs of this world which the Bible clearly states is under satan’s control. (1 John 5:19; Luke 4: 5-7) We are to be “no part” of it...Jesus’ words not mine...quotation marks for emphasis....(John 17:16; 18:36)

Ppl are obsessed with salvation through politics. What an abomination!

I will pass but am too humble to presume authority to judge you. (But it's not looking too good for you denying Scripture that teaches that God is a warrior, we're made in his image and Jesus commanded us to buy a sword and give to Caesar what is Caesar's).

Wrangle, what do you possess that belongs to Caesar? WHY would you possess any-thing that is Caesar's while knowing that a rendering to Caesar will thus be demanded of you? The result of such double mindedness is confusion and destruction. That is why God makes it a hotbed of coals in Caesar's camp so you will come over to God's side, where his burden is easy and his yoke is light. No man can serve two masters.

Your entire anti-government stand goes against the whole of Scripture. In just today's devotional reading in Jeremiah, many nations were called into Judgment. Your claim that God and Jesus has nothing to do with national government is utterly laughable.

God uses sinners as his rod of correction, to get them back on track with the One True God.

My observation that you are naive needs no back up. The whole purpose of ambassadors is to influence (aka, as you put it pejoratively "meddle")! In our exchanges, it's like you have no concept of the practical aspects of life.

Incorrect. By definition, an ambassador can only do the bidding of his master. If he does or says any other thing, then he is no ambassador and he is discounted.

Just watched a couple of vids last night about how Truman and Nixon saved Israel in their time.

That was (not) your first mistake.

In Truman's case, in particular, he achieved his Zionist ends through "back door channels." These are ambassadors who facilitate the machinery of State who achieve moral ends that, if made public, would be politically risky. Truman was a few months away from an election and the electorate was weary of international affairs. Same thing in how JFK avoided nuclear war during the Cuban missile crisis.

That consumer spew reads like the "National Enquirer" tabloid. "They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them."
Rather,
"We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error." (1 John 4:5-6).

Just admit that God and man uses violence throughout all of history and this is morally justified and divinely ordained and we can be one our way to other exciting points of discussion.

The word "moral" does not even appear in the Holy Bible.

I look forward to this playing out to God's glory and Trump's greatness. Don't you?

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

 

[Wrangler]

Wrangle, what do you possess that belongs to Caesar?

The word is duty. It is nit an exchange of a material good but a service. Are you familiar with the story of Jesus carrying gear for 2 miles when only 1 mile was required?

 

[doctrox]

The word is duty. It is nit an exchange of a material good but a service.

Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Are you familiar with the story of Jesus carrying gear for 2 miles when only 1 mile was required?

... a non sequitur.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Appeal to Emotion & Ad Homenim. Pretending I have some kind of unhealthy emotional reaction to the truth shows you've lost the argument. Rather than concede how violence is used by God and man through all of history, you try to make it personal.

What point are you missing in all of this Wrangler? In ancient times God used his power to protect his people so that when invaders came and wanted their beautiful land, He repelled them in the only way that those enemies understood. All came into the battle in the name of their own gods, but Israel’s God was the only one who could defeat massive armies who greatly outnumbered them...what better way to demonstrate his superiority? He humiliated their gods in the same way he humiliated the gods of Egypt in the 10 plagues. Each plague represented one of their useless gods...the last one was Pharaoh himself who was considered a god, but whose firstborn and heir to the throne, was put to death.

Is this what you see in modern day Israel, which is not a religious entity, but a purely political nation using purely man-made weaponry....without God, as they have been for centuries due to their continued disobedience. They broke their covenants and thereby invalidated them because they were conditional.

God kept them in existence until his purpose in connection with them was fulfilled.....bringing the Messiah into the world and having his ministry in their midst exclusively.....but he was sent to “none but the lost sheep of the house of Israel”. He was not sent to overthrow the Roman rulers or to the religious leaders of his people. He was gathering his sheep...the ones he said were “skinned and tossed about like sheep without a shepherd”.
But he put no proviso on who was acceptable, helping people individually from other nations who came to him in faith.....because he knew that the Gentiles would receive an invitation in God’s due time. In God’s promise to Abraham, he said that “all the nations would be blessed” by the seed he would send by means of Abraham’s descendants.

Just admit that God and man uses violence throughout all of history and this is morally justified and divinely ordained and we can be one our way to other exciting points of discussion.

Wow.....you say things like this with such superficial knowledge of the God you speak of.
If you actually study the Bible and understand the context and background to the Scriptures you post, you would see the error of your assumptions. God’s violence in times past had a reason, but through the teachings of Jesus Christ in later times, Christians would not be relying on their own violence to fix their horrible, human induced, political situations. God allows these things for his own reasons and told us not to be a part of any of it.

When Jesus walked the earth, there was no military and no “God-given” land for Israel to defend. The Jews had been subjugated to foreign powers for centuries. The Israel of today is not the Israel of the Bible. The “holy land” is no longer holy to God because it is polluted with bloodshed and hatred. Christianity is not a Middle Eastern religion...it is a global brotherhood, not divided by race, doctrine or politics. (1 Cor 1:10)

Your support for this wayward, “stiff necked people” (God’s own description of them) is misplaced, as is your resort to weapons being used to defend them. If God was for Israel, no power on earth could defeat them. The Jews in Israel hate Christians, but will use them and their weapons and military power to support them in their constant battles.

If only you could see your misplaced trust for corrupt men and their heinous weaponry.....

The word is duty. It is nit an exchange of a material good but a service. Are you familiar with the story of Jesus carrying gear for 2 miles when only 1 mile was required?

Duty to whom? Where is your duty to God and his Christ.....again you twist Scripture to suit your twisted political agenda.....I am sad for you....

 

[Wrangler]

What point are you missing in all of this Wrangler? In ancient times God used his power

You are the one missing THE point. What part of “YHWH is a warrior” do you not understand?

 

[Wrangler]

... a non sequitur.

Nope. Exactly the answer to your question AND proving your unwillingness to answer THE question.

 

[doctrox]

Exactly the answer to your question...

Ahhh, I see you are among them, "who justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God." You're in a pickle because you're serving two masters. You go ahead and buy into it and strike hands with the heathen (that's disobedience) and then cry when their "duty" hammer comes down. You're angry and looking for others to commiserate with, twisting the word of God, attempting to justify your ungodly behavior e.g. allegiance to a second master aka the State.

 

[Aunty Jane]

You are the one missing THE point. What part of “YHWH is a warrior” do you not understand?

What part of the Warrior God do you misunderstand because you cannot, or will not see that your loyalties are entirely misplaced.....Jesus, the Prince of Peace, is the final judge....we have to go by his teachings, not your twisted interpretation of them.....this is the mentality that got Israel into trouble all their lives....they could never just do as they were told....

it’s God’s will that must be done...not man’s.....remember the words of the Lord’s Prayer? God’s Kingdom will “come” and put all things to right...only then can God’s will be “done on earth as it is in heaven”....do you understand what he was teaching us to pray for?....the exact opposite of what you are praying for. (Isa 1:15)

 

[Wrangler]

What part of the Warrior God do you misunderstand

Not an answer to my question. OTOH, you admit we worship a warrior God but OTOH, you somehow dismiss its implications and practical applications for us being made in his image, etc.

Jesus, the Prince of Peace

Not king of peace, meaning peace in the waiting as prince.

it’s God’s will that must be done...not man’s

God’s will is DO JUSTICE, which is what war is all about!

 

[Aunty Jane]

No further replies are necessary @Wrangler....you are apparently too far gone in your patriotism and fail to see that Christians cannot use violence because it is “returning evil for evil”, putting yourselves on the same level the ones you are fighting.

When Israel fought in ancient times it was always in defence of their God-given land, not aggressive in wars fought in other people’s countries. No land on earth at this present time, is God-given.....it is mostly stolen from indigenous people with violence and bloodshed. Does God sanction that? How could he?

Perhaps you can read James 1:19-27....TLB...
“Understand this, my dear brothers and sisters: You must all be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to get angry. Human anger does not produce the righteousness God desires. So get rid of all the filth and evil in your lives, and humbly accept the word God has planted in your hearts, for it has the power to save your souls. But don’t just listen to God’s word. You must do what it says. Otherwise, you are only fooling yourselves. For if you listen to the word and don’t obey, it is like glancing at your face in a mirror. You see yourself, walk away, and forget what you look like. But if you look carefully into the perfect law that sets you free, and if you do what it says and don’t forget what you heard, then God will bless you for doing it. If you claim to be religious but don’t control your tongue, you are fooling yourself, and your religion is worthless. Pure and genuine religion in the sight of God the Father means caring for orphans and widows in their distress and refusing to let the world corrupt you.”

Obedience to Christ is not in your words, attitude, or actions. Have you allowed the world to corrupt you?

 

[Jack]

This is "the church" - right here, right now. So let's "STUDY the Bible."

There are more Bible attackers in this Unorthodox forum than Christians, BY FAR!

 

[Aunty Jane]

There are more Bible attackers in this Unorthodox forum than Christians, BY FAR!

You know what they say Jack....”if you can’t stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen”.....

You are not a Bible student who knows anything about the Bible, or what it teaches, so I really don’t know what parroting other peoples view of the Bible accomplishes here.....none of it is your own work.

If you ever had the heart to really study the Bible for yourself, instead of borrowing other people’s ideas and interpretation of it...you might have something to offer, but your posts are empty echo chamber, copy and paste stuff.
You chide others for what you do yourself....

 

[Jack]

You know what they say Jack....”if you can’t stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen”.....

I leave the HEAT for JW's!

Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

You are not a Bible student who knows anything about the Bible, or what it teaches, so I really don’t know what parroting other peoples view of the Bible accomplishes here.....none of it is your own work.

The reason you don't know is because I "parrot" Jesus all the time! You 'parrot' your WatchTower masters who tell you you're a Greek and Hebrew expert.

If you ever had the heart to really study the Bible for yourself, instead of borrowing other people’s ideas and interpretation of it...you might have something to offer, but your posts are empty echo chamber, copy and paste stuff.
You chide others for what you do yourself....

What would you like to know about the Bible Aunty? The eternal home for JW's maybe?

Matthew 13:49-50
49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be SCREAMING and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Wrangler]

No further replies are necessary @Wrangler....

I accept your surrender in this foolish argument you make.

you are apparently too far gone in your patriotism and fail to see that Christians cannot use violence because it is “returning evil for evil” ...

What?! No reference to Scripture? We can't use violence must be why Christ commanded us to buy a sword! Luke 22:36

Another display of putting "words" in quotes! Using the same words but speaking a different language. It is you who are too far gone in avoiding our God-given responsibility and duty to DO JUSTICE (Micah 6:8) and BE ARMED (Luke 22:36) by calling it evil. Your semantic arguments will not save you on Judgement Day.

Repeating the lie that "Christians cannot use violence" in the face of millions of Christians having done so for centuries shows the depth of your cognitive dissonance. The Bible is uniquely violent, arguably the most violent book ever written, where much of the violence is not merely tolerated by God but commanded by God, who is himself, a warrior. Exodus 15:3. God has helped humans win battles throughout all of history, and not just in OT times - which I have detailed at length!

We are made in God's image and commanded to be like him. Genesis 1:26-27, Psalm 82:6, Matthew 5:48, John 10:33-34, Romans 8:16-17, Ephesians 5:1 and Revelation 3:21. YHWH is the Lord of Heaven's Armies. Psalm 46:7. Zechariah 8:7. There's an army in heaven for the purpose of doing righteous and divinely ordained violence and we are made in YHWH's image. We have dominion and authority to judge things in this world even though it is ruled by Satan, in this life. 1 Corinthians 6:3-4.

Then, there is our perfect role model Jesus, who flipped over tables, whipped at people, told us to be armed, commanded us to give to Caesar what is Caesar's and the first thing he'll do upon his 2nd coming his smite his enemies and the last thing he'll do is raise judged people from the dead to violently throw them in the Lake of Fire to be annihilated.

... putting yourselves on the same level the ones you are fighting.

Your lack of discernment is appalling in claiming righteous and divinely commanded use of violence puts us on the same level as evil doers. IF you cannot discern the difference between beings who seek to steal, rape, enslave and destroy image bearers of God from those with the courage to stop it - including YHWH and his son - then you are lost!

Regarding the thread topic of supporting Israel ... Numbers 24:9 Whoever blesses Israel will be blessed, And whoever curses Israel will be cursed.”

 

[soberxp]

What?! No reference to Scripture? We can't use violence must be why Christ commanded us to buy a sword! Luke 22:36

What a stupid understanding.If you think this sword is a weapon, then I don't know if the word of God is also a sword.God's word is like a two-edged sword.Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

 

[Aunty Jane]

What a stupid understanding.If you think this sword is a weapon, then I don't know if the word of God is also a sword.God's word is like a two-edged sword.

Its no use sxp...he is too far gone down that track and nothing will dissuade him from his truth....supporting the wrong “Israel”....they are not “the Israel of God”. (Gal 6:16) That Israel is living in peace.

He’ll find out.....but it won’t be from us....he has been shown the meaning of the Scriptures he ignorantly quotes, but there are none so blind as those who will not see....can’t say we didn’t try....

Regarding the thread topic of supporting Israel ... Numbers 24:9 Whoever blesses Israel will be blessed, And whoever curses Israel will be cursed.”

What a sad misuse of Scripture......You are supporting the wrong “Israel”.....that “Israel” no longer exists....if God was fighting for Israel, they would not need support from the ones whose worship is abhorrent to them....spiritual Israel is not physical Israel.....if you are blessing or cursing the wrong Israel, you will be the one who ends up on the wrong side of this battle. You will never be able to say you weren’t warned....

 

[Wrangler]

What a sad misuse of Scripture......You are supporting the wrong “Israel”.

More quotes! LOL

you are apparently too far gone in your patriotism

I was going to edit my previous reply to more fully address this point. I am patriotic, that is true. However, my primary duty is to God, who commands the righteous use of violence, in his affairs and in ours as I've detailed my citing much Scripture.

 

[soberxp]

Its no use sxp...he is too far gone down that track and nothing will dissuade him from his truth....supporting the wrong “Israel”....they are not “the Israel of God”. (Gal 6:16) That Israel is living in peace.

He’ll find out.....but it won’t be from us....he has been shown the meaning of the Scriptures he ignorantly quotes, but there are none so blind as those who will not see....can’t say we didn’t try....

That's because they rely on weapons more than rely on God.

This is idolatry, and they have committed it.The first rule in The Ten Commandments.

 

[Wrangler]

if God was fighting for Israel, they would not need support from the ones whose worship is abhorrent to them

<sigh> So passive are you AS IF we have no role in God's Kingdom despite Scripture constantly commanding us to act. Despite all your Bible study, this is lost on you. We agree that God uses agents but in this case, there is a wall you put up. See Cyrus the Great.