Should we as Christians support the State of Israel ?

[Jack]

What do you understand about covenants? What would you call one in today’s language?

Please read the opening words of Deut 28 and see why there was always a problem with Israel’s side of the covenants they made...their conduct...their disobedience....invalidated them.

Rev 3:9...
“Look! I will make those from the synagogue of Satan who say they are Jews yet are not, but are lying—look! I will make them come and bow before your feet and make them know that I have loved you”.

Natural Israel lost their place because the covenants that God made with them were conditional....and Israel broke their covenants by their disobedience. God upheld his side of these agreements, but Israel always let him down. God kept them in existence until his purpose in connection with them was fufilled. They produced the Messiah and they not only rejected him, but also orchestrated his murder. God was done with them and chose a new Israel to bless with his Kingdom promises.

Paul explained the exchange....Rom 9:6-8...

“However, it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who descend from Israel are really “Israel.” 7  Neither are they all children because they are Abraham’s offspring; rather, “What will be called your offspring will be through Isaac.” 8  That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the offspring.”

Aunty still doesn't have a clue where Jesus will return.

 

[Wrangler]

Aunty still doesn't have a clue where Jesus will return.

That’s awesome! She writes a dozen paragraphs of rationalizations, filled with using words in “quotes” to mean a different language and you blow it all away with this simple statement.

 

[amigo de christo]

Both bloodline and Spiritual.

He is not a jew which is one outwardly .
He is a jew whose circumcision is of the heart and not the flesh , THE SPIRIT .
A true jew BELEIVES ON JESUS the CHRIST . for the flesh profits nothing .
Remember always the dire necessity to POINT to CHRIST .
IT is JESUS preaching time in the building and round the world .

 

[amigo de christo]

In Exodus and Deuteronomy, does God destroy enemies who obstruct His redemptive plan for the sake of that plan, or does He destroy people for the sake of Israel’s enemies? Please give your reasoned analysis.

This is a very profound and important theological question. The key to understanding God’s actions in *Exodus* and *Deuteronomy* lies in recognizing that the two options are not mutually exclusive—they form a complete relationship of **purpose and means**.

Simply put, **God’s central purpose is to accomplish His redemptive plan, and destroying those who are theologically defined as “enemies obstructing that plan” is the necessary and just way to achieve that purpose.**

Below is a reasonable analysis from several levels.

### 1. Primary Motivation: The Accomplishment of the Redemptive Plan
From the beginning of *Exodus*, when God reveals Himself to Moses, He makes it clear that His purpose is first and foremost “redemption”:

- **He hears their suffering:** “I have come down to deliver them from the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up from that land to a good and broad land, a land flowing with milk and honey.” (Exodus 3:8)
- **He will be their God:** The entire exodus event is not merely about liberation from slavery but about covenant relationship. “You have seen what I did to the Egyptians… Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples.” (Exodus 19:4–5)

This shows that God’s ultimate purpose is to establish a kingdom of priests belonging to Him, through whom He will bless all nations. **The redemptive plan is the absolute “first cause.”**

### 2. Destroying Enemies: As “Clearing the Obstacles” to Redemption
In the advancement of the redemptive plan, two main “obstructers” appear. God’s dealings with them reveal the interweaving of **justice and redemption**.

#### A. Regarding Egypt: A Dual Act of Judgment and Deliverance
In *Exodus*, God does not destroy Egypt as soon as Israel suffers. The narrative unfolds as a **progressive confrontation**.

- **Pharaoh’s role:** Scripture repeatedly states both that “the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart” and that Pharaoh “hardened his own heart.” Narratively, this is a form of “juridical hardening”—God gave Pharaoh over to his stubbornness in order to demonstrate the futility of Egypt’s gods and Pharaoh’s power, and to display His own might through just judgment.
- **God’s declaration:** “I will stretch out my hand and strike Egypt with all my wonders that I will do in it; after that he will let you go.” (Exodus 3:20) Also, “The Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD.” (Exodus 7:5)
- **Analysis:** Here, destruction (the plagues and the Red Sea) is the means to **break through** the barrier to redemption. Egypt was not destroyed simply because it was “Israel’s enemy” in a nationalistic sense, but because Pharaoh set himself against God, holding God’s “firstborn son” (Israel), and thus became the object of divine judgment. **Redemption is the purpose; defeating the obstructer is the necessary warfare to achieve it.**

#### B. Regarding the Canaanite Nations: Judgment and the Preservation of Holiness
In *Deuteronomy*, God commands Israel to drive out and destroy the seven Canaanite nations. This is often a focal point of theological debate.

- **Not based on ethnic hatred:** Deuteronomy 9:4–5 explicitly states that God is driving out the Canaanites **“not because of your righteousness”** but because of **“the wickedness of these nations”** and to fulfill the oath He swore to the patriarchs.
- **The nature of “wickedness”:** Archaeological evidence and biblical descriptions (e.g., Leviticus 18) indicate that Canaanite culture was marked by extreme moral depravity, including child sacrifice, temple prostitution, and perverse sexual practices. God describes the land as “vomiting out” its inhabitants.
- **Analysis:** In this part of the narrative, God acts as the **cosmic Judge**. Israel serves as the instrument of His judgment. Deuteronomy warns that if Israel later commits the same evils, they too will be “vomited out” (Deuteronomy 28:63).
- **Underlying purpose:** If Israel entered Canaan and quickly assimilated to the local religions, the redemptive plan (bringing forth the Messiah from this people to bless all nations) would be strangled in its infancy. Therefore, **destroying the Canaanites was both a just judgment for their “iniquity being full” and a removal of the “source of infection” to preserve the purity of the redemptive plan.**

### 3. Theological Balance: Holy War and Grace
When analyzing these two books, two important balancing points must not be overlooked:

- **Precedent of grace:** Even in the midst of judgment, God shows that He is not merely the “God of Israel.” During the exodus, “a mixed multitude” (various non-Israelites) went up with Israel (Exodus 12:38) and were incorporated into the redeemed community. At Jericho, Rahab the prostitute (Joshua) was saved by faith and became an ancestor of David and Jesus. This shows that God’s focus was never narrowly on ethnic genocide, but on **judgment against sin** and **the establishment of a community of faith**.
- **Ultimate direction of redemption:** The entire Old Testament narrative points toward the New Testament. In *Exodus*, God is the warrior who defeats Pharaoh. But in the Gospel of John, when Jesus confronts the “ruler of this world” (Satan), He accomplishes redemption not by killing Roman soldiers, but through His sacrifice on the cross. **The physical “removal of enemies” in the Old Testament foreshadows Christ’s spiritual destruction of “the one who has the power of death” (Satan) and His tearing down of the dividing wall between peoples in the New Testament.**

### Conclusion
**God destroyed the enemies who obstructed His redemptive plan for the sake of that redemptive plan.**

Reversing the order—“destroying people for the sake of Israel’s enemies”—would reduce God to a tribal deity, contradicting the repeated emphasis in Scripture (especially Deuteronomy) that it was “not because of your righteousness.”

**A reasonable analysis is this:**
In *Exodus* and *Deuteronomy*, God acts as the **righteous cosmic King**. Within a specific historical context, He **judges those powers that, through their sin, have excluded themselves from grace and systematically obstruct His saving purposes**. He does this in order to **establish a holy covenantal people**, thereby **preparing the way for the ultimate salvation of all humanity through Jesus Christ**.

Therefore, the logical relationship between the two options is this: **the redemptive plan is the purpose; judgment on the enemies is the necessary and just surgery on “systemic evil” required to achieve that purpose.**

And BY WHO and WHO alone can any be REDEEMED . JESUS THE CHRIST . FAITH IN HIM .
That is the redemptive plan for both jew and gentile . Any who opposes that WILL SURELY BE DESTROYED on the day of the LORD .
If even we examine what God did to those nations that came against israel
we would see it was ONLY when Israel was in obediance and NOT IN DIRE REBELLION
that GOD would d estroy those . OTHERWISE we see HIM use such enemies TO destroy the rebellious house of israel .
I think a lot of folks are very partial in their views .
Always seeming to forget WHO is THE BLESSED and upon whom cometh the destruction .
And that GOD was not always pleased with israel , just as He is now not pleased with much of chrsitendom .
REBELLION is being taught and embraced as being the love of God . And how i shudder for every soul that partakes
of that there harlots love . Let us cling to Christ and let us teach HIS words and later the Spirit filled
words of the apostels who had known him , had walked with him . Even paul who was a one born out of due time .
YOU will see ONE THING they had in common . THEY POINTED ONLY TO JESUS .
And guess what , they were all jews too . I DIDNT see any of them give israel FALSE HOPE either .
THEY warned the jew ,they warned the gentile , IT WAS ALL ABOUT having to BELEIVE ON and to FOLLOW CHRIST
I sure advise us all to go and do likewise . Be encouraged my friend . but as i say often
IT IS JESUS POINTING TIME and TIME for all to get into the bible again for to learn and be refreshed in such lovely pure truth .

 

[Wrangler]

In Exodus and Deuteronomy, does God destroy enemies who obstruct His redemptive plan for the sake of that plan, or does He destroy people for the sake of Israel’s enemies? Please give your reasoned analysis.

This is a very profound and important theological question.

Great question! I look forward to people's answer to this thoughtful question.

 

[ProDeo]

Great question! I look forward to people's answer to this thoughtful question.

In the OT -- meaning Israel being God's people and God being their King -- wars were ordered by God, not obeying that principle and starting wars without His guidance Israel was punished.

Let that sink first.

 

[Triumph1300]

not obeying that principle and starting wars without His guidance Israel was punished.

One of the most effective things one can do to damage Christianity is stand before the world with a cross around your neck and repeat the presidents lies.
It will not go unpunished by God.

 

[amigo de christo]

In the OT -- meaning Israel being God's people and God being their King -- wars were ordered by God, not obeying that principle and starting wars without His guidance Israel was punished.

Let that sink first.

In the OT -- meaning Israel being God's people and God being their King -- wars were ordered by God, not obeying that principle and starting wars without His guidance Israel was punished.

Let that sink first.

Many are very partial in how they see things .
many forget all those IFS even GOD had told ISRAEL
and later JESUS would tell his own and later his own told the church .
GOD was not well pleased with much of israel now was HE .
Not man y walked as DID abraham now did they .
Always the LORD would warn for HE desired not their d eath
but when the rebellious would not repent , would not hear , OH DEATH and destruction would come upon them .
So many see the flesh and see the earthen
when all along it should have been the spiritual and the heavenly they had sought .
Many will wail on the da y of the LORD . And that many includes even many who had used HIS NAME
and yet never knew him but had followed only men who led them to their own destruction .

 

[NayborBear]

Natural Israel lost their place because the covenants that God made with them were conditional....and Israel broke their covenants by their disobedience

Merely an FYI here for ya AJ:
Do you really think they wanted to break their end of the Covenant?
Or, would it be because of a "gross underestimation" of the adversary?

Another FYI indicating that really not that much has changed from "back in the day?"
1 John 4:
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
It was around then?
It is around now!

 

[TLHKAJ]

In the OT -- meaning Israel being God's people and God being their King -- wars were ordered by God, not obeying that principle and starting wars without His guidance Israel was punished.

Let that sink first.

Most of those wars in the OT were to extinguish the nephilim populations. That's why God said not to spare even women, children, babies, and animals. (nephilim, hybrids)

Of course, not all were nephilim wars.

BUT... since Jesus came, we are under grace, and a New Covenant. We aren't told to go about killing people who are heathens or our enemies. We're told to love them, pray for them, and do good to them. It would be different if they were a threat on our own turf.

 

[amigo de christo]

Aunty still doesn't have a clue where Jesus will return.

Where did the decisples watch him ascend from . A hint MOUNT of olives .
A hint that be your answer . BUT he aint coming as man of peace . NO THAT ONE BE ANTI CHRIST .

 

[TLHKAJ]

Can't agree ,natural Israel was, and is whom Yah made His covenant with ...He spoke with one group of people .... Only one group of people that fits Deuteronomy 28

Rev 2 and 3 :9 is speaking of those who stole the identity of true Israel ...

Actually, in the NT and until present, those who believe on Christ are the children of Abraham. Those who reject Christ aren't Abraham's seed.

Galatians 3:26-29
26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[Aunty Jane]

You repeat this false maxim despite over 1,500 years of Christians being political AND using violence to achieve their political ends. From the Roman Empire to the establishment of the Holy Roman Empire and the many Christian nations around the world.

You don’t seem to realise how soon after the death of Christ that the “apostasy” that he and his apostles foretold, would set in....please tell me what was holy about the pagan Roman Empire? Bloodshed and conquest is not a Christian trait.
The Bible says that Christ’s apostles were “acting as a restraint” against this falling away from the faith, way back in the first century...

The apostle Paul wrote.....2 Thess 2:1-12......
“However, brothers, concerning the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you 2  not to be quickly shaken from your reason . . .
Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. . . . 6  And now you know what is acting as a restraint, so that he will be revealed in his own due time. 7  True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who is right now acting as a restraint is out of the way. 8  Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence. 9  But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10  and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11  That is why God lets a deceptive influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12  in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.”

Once that restraint was gone, (with the death of the last apostle John, who was still to receive his Revelation) the apostasy took no time at all to take Christianity to the same place as the Jews had taken Israel’s worship....Jesus told them....

“You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: 8 ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. 9  It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’”

Their apostate form of Christianity with its military bloodlust invalidated their worship too. How can you possibly think that God handed the world over to the devil, only to ask the peaceful disciples of his son to go to war? Read Isaiah 2:2-4...

“In the final part of the days,
The mountain of the house of Jehovah
Will become firmly established above the top of the mountains,
And it will be raised up above the hills,
And to it all the nations will stream.
3  And many peoples will go and say:

“Come, let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah,
To the house of the God of Jacob.
He will instruct us about his ways,
And we will walk in his paths.”
For law will go out of Zion,
And the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem.
4  He will render judgment among the nations
And set matters straight respecting many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
And their spears into pruning shears.
Nation will not lift up sword against nation,
Nor will they learn war anymore.”

As Isaiah had also told Israel when they engaged in unsanctioned bloodshed....
“And when you spread out your palms,
I hide my eyes from you.
Although you offer many prayers,
I am not listening;
Your hands are filled with blood.”

Do you think God condones unsanctioned war when innocent lives are wiped out in a flash with no regard for the sanctity of that life. There is no such thing as “collateral damage” to God. He alone has the first and last word on life and death. He gave the nations permission to rule themselves but not for the reasons you use to justify war.

Jesus’ words to his disciples were “do to others as you would have them do to you”.....which applied individually.......yet you seem to twist that to “kill others before they kill you”....nationally.
What the world under satan Does is none of our concern....what God permits, he does so for a reason....which seems to be totally lost on you.

God’s words to Noah upon exiting the ark, gave humans permission for the first time to eat flesh, but with the shedding of blood, came responsibility....and accountability.

“Besides that, I will demand an accounting for your lifeblood. I will demand an accounting from every living creature; and from each man I will demand an accounting for the life of his brother. 6  Anyone shedding man’s blood, by man will his own blood be shed, for in God’s image He made man.” (Gen 9:5-6)

If anyone sheds blood, they are accountable to God for it....both individually and nationally. But since we are to be “no part of the world”, that admonition only applies individually to Christians who are told to ‘love their enemies and to pray for them’. (Matt 5:43-44)
The nations will still account to God for their wanton bloodshed....so will you if you are part of it.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Then there are all the Scriptures supporting this historical record, such as constantly speaking in terms of nations and impacts at the national level, the command to Buy a Sword and to give Caesar what is Caesar's. Finally, there is the present and future actions of Christ using violence in establishing his, what, his political kingdom. God has supported and commanded wars in ancient times and modern times. Revelation 20 informs us Christ will do what for 1,000 years? Give tantalizing sermons and warn us repeatedly to remain apolitical? No, he will rule, meaning political rule.

Wow...you still don’t get why Jesus told his apostles to buy swords and tell them that 2 was enough...?....against an armed mob?

You still don’t get what it means to be “no part of the world”? (1 John 5:19)

Can you take your patriot fingers out of your ears for a minute and actually listen....or am I wasting my efforts here? Perhaps there are readers here who are not indoctrinated to see only what they want to see....

I heard a quote from DT the other day where he said “smart people don’t like me”....doesn’t that make you ask then.... who does? Is the political corruption not obvious to you? What do you think the “No Kings” protest was telling the world? The groundswell of people waking up to the political propaganda is building.....why do you think that is? Why do you think that Bible foretold a “great tribulation”? The worse time of trouble among mankind that the world has ever seen.....and what do you think they will all do in the name of peace? It will be very interesting to see how it all plays out....but we will be innocent bystanders...unarmed and leaving God and his Christ to do what they said they will......without any help from us.

God’s Kingdom is the reestablishment of his Sovereignty over the earth as it is rightfully his. His kingdom will rule mankind from heaven as it is a global rulership requiring no physical place on earth as his Temple and his rulers are all in heaven, as is Jerusalem. (Heb 12:22-23)

The devil has you stuck in his system trying to prop up rulership that God is about to destroy......(Daniel 2:44) None will survive, so unless your loyalties rest with God and his Kingdom, you will have no place in it.

Despite going over all this, you repeat what is demonstrably not true. Sad. Maybe JW are apolitical but that is not based on Christianity.

Seeing as how the Jews had no military in the first century as they had been subjugated by foreign powers for centuries, and the Christians were told to ‘love their enemies’....and ‘not to be part of the world’.....being politically neutral and non-military is the only Christian position....who told you otherwise? The apostate church whose desire is to be “friends with the world”? (James 4:4)

Did I include enough Scripture, Wrangler?

 

[Aunty Jane]

That’s awesome! She writes a dozen paragraphs of rationalizations, filled with using words in “quotes” to mean a different language and you blow it all away with this simple statement.

LOL...."emphasis on the word “simple”.....which can have a variety of meanings too....one would never want that word to apply to us, now would we, Wrangler?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Merely an FYI here for ya AJ:
Do you really think they wanted to break their end of the Covenant?
Or, would it be because of a "gross underestimation" of the adversary?

Why would a “gross underestimation of the adversary” warrant returning evil for evil, when the instructions for Christians was not to obtain vengeance? God said that vengeance belongs to him.

Rom 12:17-21...
“Return evil for evil to no one. Take into consideration what is fine from the viewpoint of all men. 18  If possible, as far as it depends on you, be peaceable with all men. 19  Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ says Jehovah.” 20  But “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals on his head.” 21  Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.”

How do you conquer evil with more evil? Is that what Christians are told to do?
“If God is for us, who can be against us”...?

Another FYI indicating that really not that much has changed from "back in the day?"
1 John 4:
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
It was around then?
It is around now!

The devil has ruled this world since Eden when it was handed over to him as the rulership that humans had chosen (Luke 4:5-7).....they obeyed the devil, but disobeyed God....the only way to show them the benefits of obedience was to allow them to see the results of their disobedience....we have been reaping what was shown there ever since....but it was not without purpose.

Since the devil is a master deceiver, he will make the truth look like lies, and the lies look like truth.....and since the majority of those in Christendom hold to the main core teachings of the Roman Catholic church, it seems as if he has been very successful in leading the majority of mankind down a very dark path that has not led them to the peace promised to Christ’s disciples, but to politically motivated bloodshed and religious and racial hatred. People become slaves of the devil because they obey him....as Paul’s said....

“Do you not know that if you keep presenting yourselves to anyone as slaves to obeyhim, you are slaves of him because you obey him, either of sin with death in view or of obedience with righteousness in view?” (Rom 6:16)

God does not sanction the unrighteous wars of men.....

 

[Wrangler]

You don’t seem to realise how soon after the death of Christ that the “apostasy” that he and his apostles foretold, would set in

Going against your ideology is not apostasy to Christianity!

I provided, both practical, historical, modern examples of how you are wrong IN ADDITION to OT and NT verses at great length. This includes what Christ said, did, has done and will do. God is a warrior and so are we, being made in his image, commanded to DO JUSTICE and authorized to judge Angels and this life. You just ignore it all and repeat your pacifist ideology.

Putting aside all the overwhelming evidence against you, you’re right.

 

[Wrangler]

Wow...you still don’t get why Jesus told his apostles to buy swords

He wanted his friends to have dust collectors. There’s no other reason anyone would buy a sword.

You still don’t get what it means to be “no part of the world”? (1 John 5:19)

This verse does not state what you claim. 1 John 5:19
19 We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

I confronted you before about this deception. You just ignored being corrected, as you tend to do.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I’ll leave you to your delusion @Wrangler ......Jesus will correct all of us, but it might just be a bit late to eat our own words.....who will that be I wonder?

Christians cannot be patriots.....we have no spiritual citizenship in the devil’s kingdoms.....we will not fight for the devil’s agenda, or give our lives for the devil’s puppets...we will not disobey the Christ to satisfy some kind of warmongering bloodlust.

Your choices are made...so are mine....they are opposing positions......Jesus will be the one to tell us who are loyal to him, unarmed and at peace with our enemies....not to our nation in combat gear with weapons of mass destruction.

Will the real Christians please stand up....

 

[Triumph1300]

How do you conquer evil with more evil? Is that what Christians are told to do?

According to some on this Christian forum that's exactly what they are told to do.
(According to them that is.)

More wars the better it is in order to defeat evil.

As long as they can stay behind their keyboards of course.

According to them it is all by instructions given by Jesus Christ.
Sad story.

When visiting people see this kind of preaching on this forum they think "why would I get involved with Christianity"?