Should we as Christians support the State of Israel ?
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Of course. What's sad is that she is programmed through trauma-based mind control. I know this goes right over your head. Some will get what I'm saying. (@doctrox @Psalm-147:3 @Nancy) She is bloodline cult. No doubt, handled by the likes of Trump and Benny Hinn (etc) and groomed to go into "ministry."
No one gets that close to a president unless they were born in, programmed, groomed, and handled. Sadly, the "perks" of compliance (status , fortune, etc) are more desirable than the consequence of rebellion against the cult (torture, rapes targeting, death). She has alters who are compliant with their programmed assignment. I know plenty of survivors of SRA/MK whose alters began to do things to purposefully get demoted and moved down the ranks because they didn't want to carry out their assigned/programmed roles in the elite cult. Paula White has embraced her cult role.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
her handler is not different than the handler of all who have rejected JESUS or do not yet know him .
Satan . They follow satan and have no idea they do . And how easy that is to prove .
Wrangler
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Funny! I literally just watched a vid last night that said the EXACT opposite. Matthew 12:30 “Anyone who isn’t with me opposes me, and anyone who isn’t working with me is actually working against me.
Absurd. Utterly absurd. 1st, We follow our God in fighting the fight of Good v Evil.
2nd, you are again losing a semantic argument, calling acts of justice evil. You know God loves justice but this you relegate to theory with no practical application to follow. God himself admits he brings good and evil.
The only reason there is any good in this world is because good men do bad things to bad people.
Wrangler
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A verse you invent* while ignoring verses that say the opposite. 1 Corinthians 6:3
Don’t you realize that we will judge angels? So you should surely be able to resolve ordinary disputes in this life.
I wonder what ever does resolving ordinary disputes in "this" life could possibly apply to? We are to be judges as part of this world according to Scripture.
* 1 John 5:19 doesn't say what you claim:
New International Version
We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
New Living Translation
We know that we are children of God and that the world around us is under the control of the evil one.
English Standard Version
We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
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Wrangler
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Again, Matt 5:43-44 doesn't say we can't have blood on our hands. God hates (injustice, etc) and so should we.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Funny your right JESUS DID say that . HE sure did . congratulations on that one my friend .
GUESS WHAT ELSE HE SAID .
HE WHO BELEIVES NOT that I AM HE GONNA DIE in their sin .
THAT AINT WHAT YALLS BELOVED ECUMEINCAL WHORE and her sold out anti christ intefaith interreglious dialgoue says .
AND guess what , IF you and they stay connected to this
YOU ALL GONNA SCATTER on HIS DAY . TOO LATE THEN .
GET THEM OUT of anything and far from anyone , whether right or left or anyone , or any church
CONNECTED TO ECUEMINCALISM .
b ut just as iwarned another . IF YOU STAY IN IT
THEN ON THE DAY OF THE LORD
when you stand shaking like a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs
AND HE SAYS D EPART F ROM ME
DONT EVEN BEGIN to try and say buT LORD when DID YOU WARN us to get out of that which is of anti christ .
CAUSE HELLO I WARNED YOU TODAY and have been and have been warning all to get out .
THEY ARE LEADING YOU ALL RIGHT TO THE LIE . GET OUT . GET THE HECK OUT OF IT . I am not angry at you
I AM TOTALLY TERRIFIED FOR YOU ALL . I am simply doing all i can to get this people away from it .
Marvelloustime
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Wrangler
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You speak amiss. You have NO CLUE about these things, Amigo. I am speaking of her HUMAN and nephilim handlers. Get a clue. This is exactly why I often put you on ignore. How many victims of SRA/MK have you ministered to and brought to freedom WITH FRUITS? (Zip ...ZERO.)
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For who ? Truly for who !This is the worst tragedy of it all.
They who are clearly Not worthy of Christ Jesus !
Like I enter a room or a Church and see all who are only a husk ? something like that of a Vampire has taken over their Souls ? but how sweet they are ! untill they show their true colours and a yellow streek running down their back a mile wide.
In my life time the very worst people I have ever met were always just so sweet, they use such as a front, as they only have their own deranged idiot depraved spastic agendas ! and if they do not get their way ? they are clearly exposed !
Your Mob and Hitler, I remember.
Reilgion does not Save ! Only Christ Jesus Saves ones Soul in fact !
Just remember who is the people that are way out of control. Trump is right in taking such filth on and exposing them !
Iran has a chance now like never before this Death Cult took hold of Irans People !
Thanks to Trump the People of Iran will have a good future !
Just you wait and see ! You will see the enemy of the People exposed ! BUT NO THANKS AT ALL TO THE SOCIALIST FILTH who only wish to prolong the Wars in fact ! and not to mention their propaganda will be exposed for all to see in the future !
The State of Israel will be free ! and next door to them will become a new again, Thanks to Trump ! no more Hatred of the Jews BS people will live without such spastic relentless attacks 24/7 in them lands for once ! Thanks to Trump ! No thanks to the Socialist or Drug Barrons dictating over everyone, that the likes of you clearly do nothing about in fact ! your Mob is clearly aiding Criminal actions.
Anyone who thinks that this Iran is the good guy in all this is a retard ! same with Venezuela, one would have to be a spastic or retard to support such outright total Monsters at all ! This type stand over everyone with creating so much great fear, just in regards what they do to women you should be mighty ashamed of your self !
Wake up for God sake ! you are under delusions and deceptions. Why won't you stand up ! Jesus expose this world for all to see. you can not see it ? can you ! you are waithing for a 2ed comming ? to fix it all ? Well I have news for you, the Devil comes first ! he will wipe out 8 in 10 people, They have clearly said that is their intent, to serve their Idols !
JW clearly do not serve Christ Jesus ! for they reject so much to serve ther own Religious Idols that they can not see him ! as were the Jews who were lead astray ! for such as they did not become Christians ! but only the truly worthy Jews only became Christians in fact !
No one comes to the Father but only through his only begottern Son !
The Religious thinks it can go direct to the Father ? because they believe that their Religion will Save them. it will not because only Christ Jesus Saves ones Soul in fact ! so you must be Saved ! not just only a religious dupe who is clearly lossed !
Wrangler
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They were AND are true Christians because they obeyed their God to DO JUSTICE and their lord to buy a sword and give to Caesar what is Caesar’s
Your entire pacifist ideology is rooted in not living up to your responsibility to DO JUSTICE as God commanded.
soberxp
Well-Known Member
In Exodus and Deuteronomy, does God destroy enemies who obstruct His redemptive plan for the sake of that plan, or does He destroy people for the sake of Israel’s enemies? Please give your reasoned analysis.
This is a very profound and important theological question. The key to understanding God’s actions in *Exodus* and *Deuteronomy* lies in recognizing that the two options are not mutually exclusive—they form a complete relationship of **purpose and means**.
Simply put, **God’s central purpose is to accomplish His redemptive plan, and destroying those who are theologically defined as “enemies obstructing that plan” is the necessary and just way to achieve that purpose.**
Below is a reasonable analysis from several levels.
### 1. Primary Motivation: The Accomplishment of the Redemptive Plan
From the beginning of *Exodus*, when God reveals Himself to Moses, He makes it clear that His purpose is first and foremost “redemption”:
- **He hears their suffering:** “I have come down to deliver them from the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up from that land to a good and broad land, a land flowing with milk and honey.” (Exodus 3:8)
- **He will be their God:** The entire exodus event is not merely about liberation from slavery but about covenant relationship. “You have seen what I did to the Egyptians… Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples.” (Exodus 19:4–5)
This shows that God’s ultimate purpose is to establish a kingdom of priests belonging to Him, through whom He will bless all nations. **The redemptive plan is the absolute “first cause.”**
### 2. Destroying Enemies: As “Clearing the Obstacles” to Redemption
In the advancement of the redemptive plan, two main “obstructers” appear. God’s dealings with them reveal the interweaving of **justice and redemption**.
#### A. Regarding Egypt: A Dual Act of Judgment and Deliverance
In *Exodus*, God does not destroy Egypt as soon as Israel suffers. The narrative unfolds as a **progressive confrontation**.
- **Pharaoh’s role:** Scripture repeatedly states both that “the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart” and that Pharaoh “hardened his own heart.” Narratively, this is a form of “juridical hardening”—God gave Pharaoh over to his stubbornness in order to demonstrate the futility of Egypt’s gods and Pharaoh’s power, and to display His own might through just judgment.
- **God’s declaration:** “I will stretch out my hand and strike Egypt with all my wonders that I will do in it; after that he will let you go.” (Exodus 3:20) Also, “The Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD.” (Exodus 7:5)
- **Analysis:** Here, destruction (the plagues and the Red Sea) is the means to **break through** the barrier to redemption. Egypt was not destroyed simply because it was “Israel’s enemy” in a nationalistic sense, but because Pharaoh set himself against God, holding God’s “firstborn son” (Israel), and thus became the object of divine judgment. **Redemption is the purpose; defeating the obstructer is the necessary warfare to achieve it.**
#### B. Regarding the Canaanite Nations: Judgment and the Preservation of Holiness
In *Deuteronomy*, God commands Israel to drive out and destroy the seven Canaanite nations. This is often a focal point of theological debate.
- **Not based on ethnic hatred:** Deuteronomy 9:4–5 explicitly states that God is driving out the Canaanites **“not because of your righteousness”** but because of **“the wickedness of these nations”** and to fulfill the oath He swore to the patriarchs.
- **The nature of “wickedness”:** Archaeological evidence and biblical descriptions (e.g., Leviticus 18) indicate that Canaanite culture was marked by extreme moral depravity, including child sacrifice, temple prostitution, and perverse sexual practices. God describes the land as “vomiting out” its inhabitants.
- **Analysis:** In this part of the narrative, God acts as the **cosmic Judge**. Israel serves as the instrument of His judgment. Deuteronomy warns that if Israel later commits the same evils, they too will be “vomited out” (Deuteronomy 28:63).
- **Underlying purpose:** If Israel entered Canaan and quickly assimilated to the local religions, the redemptive plan (bringing forth the Messiah from this people to bless all nations) would be strangled in its infancy. Therefore, **destroying the Canaanites was both a just judgment for their “iniquity being full” and a removal of the “source of infection” to preserve the purity of the redemptive plan.**
### 3. Theological Balance: Holy War and Grace
When analyzing these two books, two important balancing points must not be overlooked:
- **Precedent of grace:** Even in the midst of judgment, God shows that He is not merely the “God of Israel.” During the exodus, “a mixed multitude” (various non-Israelites) went up with Israel (Exodus 12:38) and were incorporated into the redeemed community. At Jericho, Rahab the prostitute (Joshua) was saved by faith and became an ancestor of David and Jesus. This shows that God’s focus was never narrowly on ethnic genocide, but on **judgment against sin** and **the establishment of a community of faith**.
- **Ultimate direction of redemption:** The entire Old Testament narrative points toward the New Testament. In *Exodus*, God is the warrior who defeats Pharaoh. But in the Gospel of John, when Jesus confronts the “ruler of this world” (Satan), He accomplishes redemption not by killing Roman soldiers, but through His sacrifice on the cross. **The physical “removal of enemies” in the Old Testament foreshadows Christ’s spiritual destruction of “the one who has the power of death” (Satan) and His tearing down of the dividing wall between peoples in the New Testament.**
### Conclusion
**God destroyed the enemies who obstructed His redemptive plan for the sake of that redemptive plan.**
Reversing the order—“destroying people for the sake of Israel’s enemies”—would reduce God to a tribal deity, contradicting the repeated emphasis in Scripture (especially Deuteronomy) that it was “not because of your righteousness.”
**A reasonable analysis is this:**
In *Exodus* and *Deuteronomy*, God acts as the **righteous cosmic King**. Within a specific historical context, He **judges those powers that, through their sin, have excluded themselves from grace and systematically obstruct His saving purposes**. He does this in order to **establish a holy covenantal people**, thereby **preparing the way for the ultimate salvation of all humanity through Jesus Christ**.
Therefore, the logical relationship between the two options is this: **the redemptive plan is the purpose; judgment on the enemies is the necessary and just surgery on “systemic evil” required to achieve that purpose.**
This is a very profound and important theological question. The key to understanding God’s actions in *Exodus* and *Deuteronomy* lies in recognizing that the two options are not mutually exclusive—they form a complete relationship of **purpose and means**.
Simply put, **God’s central purpose is to accomplish His redemptive plan, and destroying those who are theologically defined as “enemies obstructing that plan” is the necessary and just way to achieve that purpose.**
Below is a reasonable analysis from several levels.
### 1. Primary Motivation: The Accomplishment of the Redemptive Plan
From the beginning of *Exodus*, when God reveals Himself to Moses, He makes it clear that His purpose is first and foremost “redemption”:
- **He hears their suffering:** “I have come down to deliver them from the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up from that land to a good and broad land, a land flowing with milk and honey.” (Exodus 3:8)
- **He will be their God:** The entire exodus event is not merely about liberation from slavery but about covenant relationship. “You have seen what I did to the Egyptians… Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples.” (Exodus 19:4–5)
This shows that God’s ultimate purpose is to establish a kingdom of priests belonging to Him, through whom He will bless all nations. **The redemptive plan is the absolute “first cause.”**
### 2. Destroying Enemies: As “Clearing the Obstacles” to Redemption
In the advancement of the redemptive plan, two main “obstructers” appear. God’s dealings with them reveal the interweaving of **justice and redemption**.
#### A. Regarding Egypt: A Dual Act of Judgment and Deliverance
In *Exodus*, God does not destroy Egypt as soon as Israel suffers. The narrative unfolds as a **progressive confrontation**.
- **Pharaoh’s role:** Scripture repeatedly states both that “the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart” and that Pharaoh “hardened his own heart.” Narratively, this is a form of “juridical hardening”—God gave Pharaoh over to his stubbornness in order to demonstrate the futility of Egypt’s gods and Pharaoh’s power, and to display His own might through just judgment.
- **God’s declaration:** “I will stretch out my hand and strike Egypt with all my wonders that I will do in it; after that he will let you go.” (Exodus 3:20) Also, “The Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD.” (Exodus 7:5)
- **Analysis:** Here, destruction (the plagues and the Red Sea) is the means to **break through** the barrier to redemption. Egypt was not destroyed simply because it was “Israel’s enemy” in a nationalistic sense, but because Pharaoh set himself against God, holding God’s “firstborn son” (Israel), and thus became the object of divine judgment. **Redemption is the purpose; defeating the obstructer is the necessary warfare to achieve it.**
#### B. Regarding the Canaanite Nations: Judgment and the Preservation of Holiness
In *Deuteronomy*, God commands Israel to drive out and destroy the seven Canaanite nations. This is often a focal point of theological debate.
- **Not based on ethnic hatred:** Deuteronomy 9:4–5 explicitly states that God is driving out the Canaanites **“not because of your righteousness”** but because of **“the wickedness of these nations”** and to fulfill the oath He swore to the patriarchs.
- **The nature of “wickedness”:** Archaeological evidence and biblical descriptions (e.g., Leviticus 18) indicate that Canaanite culture was marked by extreme moral depravity, including child sacrifice, temple prostitution, and perverse sexual practices. God describes the land as “vomiting out” its inhabitants.
- **Analysis:** In this part of the narrative, God acts as the **cosmic Judge**. Israel serves as the instrument of His judgment. Deuteronomy warns that if Israel later commits the same evils, they too will be “vomited out” (Deuteronomy 28:63).
- **Underlying purpose:** If Israel entered Canaan and quickly assimilated to the local religions, the redemptive plan (bringing forth the Messiah from this people to bless all nations) would be strangled in its infancy. Therefore, **destroying the Canaanites was both a just judgment for their “iniquity being full” and a removal of the “source of infection” to preserve the purity of the redemptive plan.**
### 3. Theological Balance: Holy War and Grace
When analyzing these two books, two important balancing points must not be overlooked:
- **Precedent of grace:** Even in the midst of judgment, God shows that He is not merely the “God of Israel.” During the exodus, “a mixed multitude” (various non-Israelites) went up with Israel (Exodus 12:38) and were incorporated into the redeemed community. At Jericho, Rahab the prostitute (Joshua) was saved by faith and became an ancestor of David and Jesus. This shows that God’s focus was never narrowly on ethnic genocide, but on **judgment against sin** and **the establishment of a community of faith**.
- **Ultimate direction of redemption:** The entire Old Testament narrative points toward the New Testament. In *Exodus*, God is the warrior who defeats Pharaoh. But in the Gospel of John, when Jesus confronts the “ruler of this world” (Satan), He accomplishes redemption not by killing Roman soldiers, but through His sacrifice on the cross. **The physical “removal of enemies” in the Old Testament foreshadows Christ’s spiritual destruction of “the one who has the power of death” (Satan) and His tearing down of the dividing wall between peoples in the New Testament.**
### Conclusion
**God destroyed the enemies who obstructed His redemptive plan for the sake of that redemptive plan.**
Reversing the order—“destroying people for the sake of Israel’s enemies”—would reduce God to a tribal deity, contradicting the repeated emphasis in Scripture (especially Deuteronomy) that it was “not because of your righteousness.”
**A reasonable analysis is this:**
In *Exodus* and *Deuteronomy*, God acts as the **righteous cosmic King**. Within a specific historical context, He **judges those powers that, through their sin, have excluded themselves from grace and systematically obstruct His saving purposes**. He does this in order to **establish a holy covenantal people**, thereby **preparing the way for the ultimate salvation of all humanity through Jesus Christ**.
Therefore, the logical relationship between the two options is this: **the redemptive plan is the purpose; judgment on the enemies is the necessary and just surgery on “systemic evil” required to achieve that purpose.**
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Let me just mention that the translation you chose is incorrect.....but worded so that it appears to suggest what you want to believe....let me show you how other translations render that passage and see if you can spot the difference...?
“Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews say that the place to worship is in Jerusalem.” Jesus told her, “Believe me, woman, an hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You Samaritans worship what you do not know. We worship what we do know, because salvation is from the Jews. But an hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and in truth. Yes, the Father wants such people to worship him.” (CSB)
“Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship.” Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him.” (ESV)
“Our fathers worshiped in this mountain, and you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.” Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.” (NASB)
“Our fathers worshipped on this mountain, but you people say that the place where one has to worship is in Yerushalayim.” Yeshua said, “Lady, believe me, the time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Yerushalayim. You people don’t know what you are worshipping; we worship what we do know, because salvation comes from the Jews. But the time is coming — indeed, it’s here now — when the true worshippers will worship the Father spiritually and truly, for these are the kind of people the Father wants worshipping him.” (CJB)
So what does this passage actually say without the spin that you put on it?
It states two unequivocal truths......no mountain or city on earth will be the seat of Jehovah’s worship in the future...why? Because God’s Kingdom is based in heaven, and Christ and his elect will rule the whole world from that incredible vantage point.
Earthly Jerusalem, and the Jews, as a political nation, will have no part in it. Salvation is “from the Jews” because it was they who were to bring the Messiah into the world...but after they rejected him and orchestrated his murder, God was done with them....his patience had run its course and He had given them every opportunity to become that “kingdom of priests and a holy nation” as He had promised, but they broke their covenant with God by their disobedience......the wording of all God’s covenants required obedience above all else. They were never obedient and subsequently lost their place....God chose a new “Israel” and invited people of all nations to qualify for that privilege.
You are stuck in old Jewish mentality and a vested interest in Israel that will not come to its desired conclusion.....God will not bless anyone who supports the wrong Israel in the wrong kind of warfare.
Being a Jew by birth carries no advantage, as John B so clearly stated.
“But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.” (Matt 3:7-10 ESV)
The axe fell and the tree was cut down......members of natural Israel can be grafted back in but not the political nation that has unsanctioned blood on its hands.....laughing behind the backs of those foolish enough to believe that they are still God’s people....and supporting them with an ulterior motive...completely selfish!
Your ignorance and twisting of the Scriptures will come back to bite you Wrangler, and all those who think that Christians need to fight for God and Israel any other way but spiritually, will see that Christ will reject them for their blatant disobedience. You cannot fight evil with evil...you can only conquer evil with good....murder is not good.
You will soon see where your loyalties should have been.....and you will lament your decisions.
You don’t need to take my word for that.....Jesus will let you know soon enough.
What @soberxp has posted, answers all your accusations and dismantles them entirely....
Open your eyes and see that you have no Scriptural legs to stand on....only wishful thinking based on your carnal understanding of the spiritual battle that we have to wage...no carnal weapons required.
Do I detect another WatchTower puppet? If you think JW's are Christians you don't have a clue what the Bible says!
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Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
They believe what the watch tower society tells them to believe
If they don't they get the left foot of fellowship as the JWs proclaim they are hell bound.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Do you?.....Do you know that JW’s actively opposed Hitler’s regime by not supporting it...not giving the Nazi salute, or fighting in Hitler’s armed forces. We were persecuted and many were executed in the Nazi concentration camps for refusing to serve Hitler’s agenda....totally neutral to the whole war effort.
We were not fighting in a war where those who claimed to be Christians were killing their brothers in Christ just because of political ideologies (1 John 4:20-21)......not following corrupt world leaders, sending their young men and women to their deaths for purely political reasons......whose side was God on? Both claimed obedience to his teachings, but betrayed it by their actions.
No it doesn’t....religion never saved anyone...but obedience to Christ will.....and obedience means not returning evil for evil. The world can do that and justify....but we are to be “NO PART OF THE WORLD”.
God will hold the world to an accounting for its bloodshed.....
No human can give any nation a better future.....temporarily perhaps, but not long term. Only God’s Kingdom can bring lasting peace and security to the whole world....not just to parts of it while other parts are fighting and killing one another....peace and security for all.
You have no idea who are pulling his strings....he has no idea who are licking his boots either....not many of them do...
Reggie, I have already explained that there are no good guys in a world ruled by the devil. A lesser of two evils is not much of a choice....when you have an incorruptible King who is ruling his disciples right now, why serve another master?
What religious idols would that be, since we do not have any....God has always used men with spiritual qualification to guide and direct his people.....when has he ever left them without spiritual guidance.....?
He never left them to fend for themselves.
God’s word was used for the foundations of their beliefs and conduct, and they were obligated to obey all that God had told them....we follow the same pattern.....Christianity is not what you do...it’s who you are.
We serve Jesus Christ every day because he is part of who we are, guiding our journey. You obviously know nothing about us from personal experience.....you apparently judge us by hear-say.....they did that to Jesus too....(John 15:18-21)