Simple Chart of End Times Events

[veteran]

I now understand that false Preterism is what is the cause of much of the negative feedback I am getting about my beliefs. I believe in NO FORM of Preterism, whether full or partial, and I have shown a straight forward method of proving it to not be so.


I have shown much biblical support that Michael WILL be born as a man, and will fulfill the prophecies of the Angel with the writers inkhorn in Ezekiel and the mighty and strong Angel of Revelation. Your example has no relation to this event. You mention that since several Angels appear in the bible (and are called men by the way since you forgot to mention that) that this somehow negates Micheal following the footsteps of Jesus by being born in the flesh. You do err.

I see no Biblical support for it. But I do see your false supposition of trying to link the Archangel Michael with being our Lord Jesus Christ (like in your above tirades about Michael being The Branch of the OT prophets), which is a Jehovah's Witness leaning to equate the Archangel Michael as being our Lord Jesus; that idea is not a doctrine written anywhere in God's Word. And what I've said about angels having the image of man is... very Biblical, but it still does not mean they have to manifest in flesh to be seen as men, on earth, as there is no Biblical evidence for that supposition of fleshy angels.

First, I do not think it is any more crazy than thinking all these prophecies in both the OT and NT are already fulfilled. Preterism, either in full or part, to me is the ultimate of crazy, but everyone is entitled to their opinion. Also since Jesus Christ Himself established this unusual precedent of being born on earth in the flesh, to say that Michael could not follow suit is blind, especially considering the biblical evidence to support the physical actions being done on the earth by these people who are called both Angels and men, which have not been fulfilled yet as they are written no matter what any try to say.

You reveal you don't really understanding what the Preterist doctrines are about. Out of one side of your mouth you make the claim all these prophecies were already fulfilled, and then deny Preterist doctrine as a whole. Preterism is from the word 'preter' which means 'to be past'. What those who began the Preterist doctrines of men have done is simply opened up a can of falseness so as to pick and choose whatever prophecy they don't want to throw in it, saying it was already fulfilled historically, with new additions thrown into the can gradually.

Actually, to assume that just because our Lord Jesus was born of woman (to die on the cross), thinking that means any of God's angels could be born flesh, that reveals strong deception against what God's Word teaches. The word angel itself simply means a messenger, but in the Biblical context it is put for Heavenly messengers not of this world, not born as flesh men. That's Bible 101, which it sounds like you may have never had or need to get back to.

 

[Rex]

Its hard to say about that. Retro certainly is off base and tends to attack me more and with more venom (as seen above), but perhaps taking two guys who are both very wrong and saying one is worse than another is incorrect.


And you also.


I have been thinking about how Rex has approached me and it has made me think that perhaps I may have been too harsh in some of my responses. I have no wish to put down other peoples opinions, only to promote what I believe to be true.

I will try to do better.

Thats been my experience with veteran, he is so animate in prophesy treads and with anyone that that confronts his interpretation, I find him completely impossible.
A bully that resorts to name calling and breaking the subject into many different facets confusing the issue to the point the conversation makes no sense to the average reader. His final reprimands are If you don't see it his way your under the influence of Satan or your a false Jew is favorite label, heading for the great deception, in reality looking for a temple and displacing the 70th week is a deception. But when I mention or defend it he turns loony.

Consider your ways


I forgot to mention that veteran likes to heap, you can not talk about the destruction of the temple and Jesus declaring it desolate with-out him slapping a sticker on you labeling you as believing the second advent has taken place. He simply refuses or can not take an event from his carefully organized pigeon holes. He has a convenient label for everyone and every event. After you disagree with his plan he heeps several more false usumpition on the point as I said above, breaking the point into many other topics that have nothing to do with what was said, watch and see for yourself.


You find yourself defending against a blizzard of preconceived notions instead of the subject.
Especially when he has little or no evidence.


He hopes to appeal to others that have been taught to throw the baby out out with the bath water.

Your preaching to the choir I have spent a great deal of time sorting threw all the labels preterism historicism and futurism, believe me when I tell you none of these in and of themselves holds the complete truth. Labels are a huge disservice to the truth. The same as church labels

 

[JosyWales]

I guess we all get pretty passionate about what we believe sometimes, especially when it comes to this stuff. I mean, not me of course, I never get excited

Retro said something that made sense to me and that was that we all know something and if we can just not beat each other up when we try to share it, maybe we can finally figure out what's up. Trouble is that keeping an open mind when you are sure you are right has always been difficult.

Accepting what I am showing people here is going to be all the more difficult because it is something I found out on my own and as such, it is completely different from any thing that anyone here has ever seen before. This is bad since I have no one to support me in it and everyone's teachings that they have received from childhood is going to argue with them to not accept it. However, if it is true, then it is good because I feel most blessed that God has shown me something that has been hidden in plain sight from everyone. However, I know that since it is a new viewpoint, it may be flawed or I have missed something, which is why I have presented it in hopes of refining it and finding any obvious errors.

This is why, even though I may not seem like it, I am happy for the discourse that has ensued here, because it has allowed me to purge my work and make it better. I am more convinced than ever that I am on the right track, but only time will tell. In a way, I want it to start happening so I can know if I have it right, but simultaneously, if it does start then is that really a good thing?

 

[JosyWales]

Blur00 said, "Maybe you could elaborate on this":

Quote
“It should be mentioned here that there is a connection between the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Angels of Revelation and the Noah, Daniel and Job sequence that is repeated four times in Ezekiel 14, in that a Noah character will emerge from the events of the 1st Angel, a Daniel character will emerge from the events of the 2nd Angel and a Job character will emerge from the events of the 3rd Angel. A good understanding of these three characters is extremely helpful in interpreting the actions of these first three men (or Angels as they are referred to) during the time of the Revelation.”

I will be happy to.

I realized early on that if the future Apocalypse were based on past patterns, and if some of the Old Testament prophecies are directly related to Revelation, then they should be easy to see. The prophecy of Ezekiel was one of the first ones that showed me that a certain sequence of people, as identified by name, will occur in a certain order during the End Times.

I already had a group of 4, consisting of the 4 kings of Babylon as spoken of in Daniel, but, since there were 7 to be accounted for, I was lacking 3. Ezekiel 14 not only supplied them but also showed me how they were to be assembled.

The first thing I noticed was that in Revelation, a mysterious set of 10 days is mentioned in which God tells the Second Angel that during this time he will be given tribulation. I had already noticed that in Daniel 1, Daniel was also given this same number of days as a trial upon his arrival in Babylon. I saw the match, since it was obvious, but it was the fact that Daniel was the 2nd in the sequence of the Noah, Daniel , and Job that made me think that if Daniel was the template of the Second Angel, then Ezekiel was telling us there that Noah and Job must have some connection to the 1st and 3rd Angels.

Once I had the plan, the rest was easy to see.

In Revelation, the 1st Angel is warned that if he does not mend his ways, then his Candlestick will be taken away from him. Since we know from Rev 1 that as the Stars in Jesus hands are representative of the Angels themselves, we are also told that the 7 Candlesticks are their churches. Now, since we are told in the Bible that where at least 2 (or more) are gathered together, there is a church, I came to see that if the Angels (Stars of Rev 1) are people, then the Candlesticks are also people, and since you only need one, they may be individuals just as the Angels are, though in some instances, the Churches (Candlesticks) may represent more than one.

Since Revelation tells us that the 1st Angel (Rider of the White Horse) falls, and that his church is taken away from him by God, then the connection to the Noah-type would be the 1st Angels Church departing from him in the same way Noah departed the fallen people in his Arc. As a result I now saw a connection between the Noah reference in Ezekiel and the 1st Angel in the same way I had already seen the connection to the Daniel with the 2nd Angel.

Using the same method, I then looked at the 3rd Angel to see if there was a similarity there as well to a Job-like figure, and sure enough, it was also easy to see.

In Revelation, God chastises the 3rd Angel for associating with people who claimed to be Gods people, but were actually not. This is a match with Job’s 3 friends, who God became furious with at the end of the Book of Job for their actions. Now I had a match between Noah, Daniel and Job and the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Angels of Revelation.

Now that I had that established, I only needed to match the last 4 and they were handed to me on a silver platter so to speak in Daniel.

You see, most people think that the 4 kingdoms that Daniel spoke of, first in Daniel 2 with the statue made of the 4 metals and then again in Daniel 7 with the 4 beasts, are symbolic of kingdoms that existed well after the death of Daniel, with the exception of Babylon of course.

In other words, they think that head of Gold was representative of Babylon, the Arms of Silver as the Medio-Persian empire, the body and thighs of Brass as Greece and the Legs of Iron as Rome.

THIS IS COMPLETELY INCORRECT!

The four kingdoms of Daniel are the ones he actually lived through himself. The head of Gold was Nebuchadnezzar. There is no doubt of this since Daniel said so directly. However, the arms of Silver, the inferior Kingdom, is Belshazzar, who came after Nebuchadnezzar, Daniel is clear that Belshazzar was inferior to Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 5. The body and thighs of Brass is Darius, who Daniel 6 makes sure to tell us that he rules the entire known world of his time. The last Legs of Iron are Cyrus the Persian.

We now have the character types that we can associate with the 7 Angels of Revelation. They are in order:

1. 1st Angel = Noah type
2. 2nd Angel = Daniel type
3. 3rd Angel = Job type
4. 4th Angel = Nebuchadnezzar type
5. 5th Angel = Belshazzar type
6. 6th Angel = Darius type
7. 7th Angel = Cyrus type

If you look at each of the last 4, Nebuchadnezzar through Cyrus, and then look at the descriptions of the last 4 Angels of Revelation, Angels 4- 7, you can easily see an almost exact matchup between them, which leads back to the outline I showed you earlier about how the Chapters of Daniel tie directly into descriptions of each of the 7 Angels, starting with Chapter 1’s connection with the 1st Angel, Chapter 2’s connection with the 2nd Angel and so on which I go into great detail about in the section “Apocalypse as a Reoccurring Event and How Daniel Recorded It’s Rotation During His Time” which is toward the bottom of page 1 of this thread.

Remember that it is my belief that the 70 years of Daniel are a template for the 70 weeks of the future Apocalypse, and this is the basis of how this all ties together. It does so amazingly well too if I might say so.

 

[JosyWales]

I want to thank notreligus for asking me these questions in private, but I have no problem answering them in public. I will show his questions and observations in Green:

Until I read the "Final Rotation" I was unclear who you thought were the "People of God."

I believe the people of God to be the 144,000 virgin Jews headed by Michael and His Seven, who will be the focal point of a larger group of many who flee the Beasts rule. This larger group will be made up of people from every walk and persuasion of life.

Who is the "woman?" You know who most believe that refers to, don't you?

The Woman who has the child in Revelation is a real person, of whose identity I do not know as of yet. She is not ‘symbolic’ of anything but will most likely be Jewish since the reference to the sun, moon and stars is a replica of Joseph’s dream symbolism.

Unless I'm missing something you're not claiming that the Tribulation Period is for Israel alone.

No, it is not just for them, it is for all those who believe in Christ truly. While this will include the 144,000, it will also include everyone who stands for Christ in truth.

In Revelation real events are described in symbolic language. Why must there be an extended battle? When Christ returns I can't fathom much of a battle at all. Who can fight Him, the Creator of the World? I think that Peter got it right when he said that this world as we know it will be burned up. These battle scenes have helped sell books and movies but Satan's most organized assault against God won't be much to write home about when Christ takes him out forever.

In terms of the end battle, you are correct. It will probably not last long at all. However, the conflict that occurs before this last decisive stand will last for the 2300 day period and the extra days of 30 then 45 spoken of by Daniel in Daniel 12. The purpose for this is to train and refine those who will be allowed to have part in the 1000 year reign with Christ at the end of this event. Only those who fight the Beast will live and reign with Christ during this time, even though it will also end in failure at the end of the 1000 years.

I believe the Apostle Paul and he has told us that a time of lawlessness - one like mankind has yet to experience - is coming. So, I'm not going to throw your baby out with the bathwater. There is a time coming that will make A.D. 70 pale in comparison, but that will be God's wrath, not Roman wrath, and God's wrath is not for His people. I don't say this as my personal interpretation but we both know that there is some personal interpretation in all of these end-times scenarios, including yours. I read the first three books of Genesis and compare those with the last three books of Revelation. I read what Jesus said, what Peter said, and what Paul said and compare that to Revelation. Too many Christians look for Old Testament passages to fulfill New Testament passages, when we should do the opposite. That is why so many believe that Revelation, after Chapter Three, is exclusively meant for Israel.

Some of what you say, I agree with and some I do not.

You say that God is not angry with his people, but I disagree. He is angry, just not as much as with those around them. That is why the Apocalypse is divided into two parts. The first part is where God cleans up his people and he uses the future Babylon to do it. When this is accomplished, he then unleashed the future Babylon on the world, and finally, he punishes them as well, bringing in the reign of Christ.

This is supported in the bible where God says:

Isa 47:6 I was wroth with my people, I have polluted mine inheritance, and given them into thine hand: thou didst shew them no mercy; upon the ancient hast thou very heavily laid thy yoke.

Isa 47:11 Therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence it riseth: and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to put it off: and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, [which] thou shalt not know.

I also believe that the prophecies of both the Old and New Testament are directed at the fulfillment of Revelation. They may have some application toward the time they are written for, but they are also to be used in the final form for the End Times. There are too many to list, but my explanation for my chart lists many, a great example being Eze 14, the whole chapter.

What do you believe is God's purpose with the Millennium?

Defining Gods purposes is a bit too much for me, but I have noticed that even the Millennium fails at the end. Since I believe that God's goals are to make a perfect people who he can allow to live forever, incorruptible, in complete happiness, and each one wielding the power of God, I have to assume that this is the last step He must perform to create such folks.

I must tell you that I was a hard line Dispensational for about forty five years and I have changed my mind about many things. Dispensationalism requires that the Body of Christ, the new single man in Christ, must be divided by two separate covenants during the Millennium. If that is true then we can rip the entire Book of Hebrews from the Bible and many other parts as well.

I have a dislike for titles that pigeonhole ideas into prearranged groups. My beliefs are set out quite clearly in my chart and explanation and probably encompass quite a few ideas from many different areas. I have not followed any of this, but have used the Bible to come up with a set of ideas that appears to be completely different from anything anyone has ever taught me. If anyone can see any error in my ideas, please show me so that we can discuss them.

I wanted to ask these questions directly. There are many Dual Covenant Believers at this forum and had I asked you my questions publicly they would have taken your thread somewhere you probably would not want it to go.

I welcome any input except anything that shifts away from the topic of this thread, which is my chart and how well it does or doesn’t fit into the Bible. I am not sure what Dual Covenant even is, since I have not studied the teachings of men, but have secluded myself with only the bible in an attempt to get to the pure truth, without corrupting influences. It was in this way that I developed what you see here and it is why I was able to cut through much of the incorrect thinking that has corrupted modern interpretation of Revelation and the rest of the Bible.

I appreciate your hard work and what you feel is something that the Lord revealed to you. He is not a respecter of persons and I have been baptized in the Holy Spirit and still don't get everything right. God the Father gave His Son, The Lord Jesus Christ the scroll with the pre-recorded history of the world. Only THEY know everything.

I agree with this last statement completely.

Thanks for your time.

And I thank you for your response as well. I sincerely appreciate it.

 

[veteran]

Blur00 said, "Maybe you could elaborate on this":

Quote
“It should be mentioned here that there is a connection between the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Angels of Revelation and the Noah, Daniel and Job sequence that is repeated four times in Ezekiel 14, in that a Noah character will emerge from the events of the 1st Angel, a Daniel character will emerge from the events of the 2nd Angel and a Job character will emerge from the events of the 3rd Angel. A good understanding of these three characters is extremely helpful in interpreting the actions of these first three men (or Angels as they are referred to) during the time of the Revelation.”

I will be happy to.

I realized early on that if the future Apocalypse were based on past patterns, and if some of the Old Testament prophecies are directly related to Revelation, then they should be easy to see. The prophecy of Ezekiel was one of the first ones that showed me that a certain sequence of people, as identified by name, will occur in a certain order during the End Times.

There is a relation between Christ's Revelation and the OT prophets, but not using things like Gematria like you appear to be doing. Anyone can find numerical links between NT and OT Scripture and play games with it. We don't need that, we only need read and heed the Scriptures as written, for they are simple enough once God's Word as a whole is read and studied under guidance by The Holy Spirit.

I already had a group of 4, consisting of the 4 kings of Babylon as spoken of in Daniel, but, since there were 7 to be accounted for, I was lacking 3. Ezekiel 14 not only supplied them but also showed me how they were to be assembled.

The first thing I noticed was that in Revelation, a mysterious set of 10 days is mentioned in which God tells the Second Angel that during this time he will be given tribulation. I had already noticed that in Daniel 1, Daniel was also given this same number of days as a trial upon his arrival in Babylon. I saw the match, since it was obvious, but it was the fact that Daniel was the 2nd in the sequence of the Noah, Daniel , and Job that made me think that if Daniel was the template of the Second Angel, then Ezekiel was telling us there that Noah and Job must have some connection to the 1st and 3rd Angels.

There is a connection with the 10 days between the Books of Daniel and Revelation, but it's in the tribulation sense. And the connections of Noah's time Jesus made that simple with His comparisons in His Olivet Discourse, and in Rev.11 & 12. No need to create some mystical magical mystery tour out of that.

Once I had the plan, the rest was easy to see.

In Revelation, the 1st Angel is warned that if he does not mend his ways, then his Candlestick will be taken away from him. Since we know from Rev 1 that as the Stars in Jesus hands are representative of the Angels themselves, we are also told that the 7 Candlesticks are their churches. Now, since we are told in the Bible that where at least 2 (or more) are gathered together, there is a church, I came to see that if the Angels (Stars of Rev 1) are people, then the Candlesticks are also people, and since you only need one, they may be individuals just as the Angels are, though in some instances, the Churches (Candlesticks) may represent more than one.

Well, the idea of 'stars' put for angels is not about flesh people. In Rev.1 with the layout Jesus showed John about the seven candlesticks and stars, it's involving a Heavenly pattern for a literal structure on earth. The seven candlesticks are... the seven Churches Jesus said there. Yet Jesus showed John those seven candlesticks reside in Heaven (Rev.2:5). So the meaning of the candlesticks is not some fleshy idea that Churches are literally candlesticks, but simply that the seven candlesticks in Heaven SYMBOLICALLY REPRESENT the seven Churches of Asia per Rev.2 & 3. Likewise with the seven stars (angels) over the seven Churches.

Since Revelation tells us that the 1st Angel (Rider of the White Horse) falls, and that his church is taken away from him by God, then the connection to the Noah-type would be the 1st Angels Church departing from him in the same way Noah departed the fallen people in his Arc. As a result I now saw a connection between the Noah reference in Ezekiel and the 1st Angel in the same way I had already seen the connection to the Daniel with the 2nd Angel.

This is where you really... go astray. The rider on the white horse on the first given seal of Rev.6 is not linked with any of the angels of the seven Churches. That rider coming on a white horse to conquer represents the coming Antichrist, the psueod-Christ which my Lord Jesus and His Apostles warned His Church about.

If you don't care to go astray on that Rev.6 rider on the white horse like you did, then the rest of your supposition is worse and not worthy of note.

 

[JosyWales]

There is a relation between Christ's Revelation and the OT prophets, but not using things like Gematria like you appear to be doing. Anyone can find numerical links between NT and OT Scripture and play games with it. We don't need that, we only need read and heed the Scriptures as written, for they are simple enough once God's Word as a whole is read and studied under guidance by The Holy Spirit.

Well, lets take a look at this.

First, we need to understand what Gematria is. Since I didn't know, and I figure there may be some others as well, I looked it up and this is what I found:

Gematria or gimatria (Hebrew: גימטריא/גימטריה‎ gēmaṭriyā) is a traditional Jewish system of assigning numerical value to a word or phrase, in the belief that words or phrases with identical numerical values bear some relation to each other, or bear some relation to the number itself as it may apply to a person's age, the calendar year, or the like.

I didn't know I was doing that, but perhaps in a way, I am, but not in this traditional way.

I did notice that there seems to be a direct link between Noah, Daniel and Job in Ezekiel and the first 3 angels of Revelation, and perhaps that is what he is talking about. He does mention a bit later something that might be an example of what he means, but it is a very bad example. If he had others, I would like to hear them.

There is a connection with the 10 days between the Books of Daniel and Revelation, but it's in the tribulation sense. And the connections of Noah's time Jesus made that simple with His comparisons in His Olivet Discourse, and in Rev.11 & 12. No need to create some mystical magical mystery tour out of that.

I like the Beatles too, but, apart from that, seeing a link between the 10 days of Daniel and the 10 days of the 2nd Angel is pretty straight forward. I do see an obvious link between Jesus and Noah, but that would start a different topic entirely. I have simply pointed out that the Noah mention in Ezekiel and the separation of the Church from the 1st Angel look to me to have some connection, especially when combined with all the other connections.

Well, the idea of 'stars' put for angels is not about flesh people. In Rev.1 with the layout Jesus showed John about the seven candlesticks and stars, it's involving a Heavenly pattern for a literal structure on earth. The seven candlesticks are... the seven Churches Jesus said there. Yet Jesus showed John those seven candlesticks reside in Heaven (Rev.2:5). So the meaning of the candlesticks is not some fleshy idea that Churches are literally candlesticks, but simply that the seven candlesticks in Heaven SYMBOLICALLY REPRESENT the seven Churches of Asia per Rev.2 & 3. Likewise with the seven stars (angels) over the seven Churches.

Partially right and also partially wrong.

I think it is quite easy to see the connection between the stars and the 7 Angels since the whole of Revelation revolves around them. Also, it is my contention that the 7 churches of Asia are used as representative of the type of people the Angels (who are born as men on earth during the Apocalypse) will be like.

If you read the whole of Revelation, you have to notice that after identifying the 7 churches by name in Rev 1 and 2, John then goes on to repeat this pattern of 7 three more times, all concerning what are pretty clearly the actions of individuals that occur during the Apocalypse. I am not sure how one does not see that.

So yes, there is a symbolic representation here based on the old churches, but they are symbolic of the nature of the 7 Angels and their churches, who are real flesh and blood people, that are to appear during the End Times. My chart shows that the events shown in Revelation happen in real time and are done by real individuals.

This is where you really... go astray. The rider on the white horse on the first given seal of Rev.6 is not linked with any of the angels of the seven Churches. That rider coming on a white horse to conquer represents the coming Antichrist, the psueod-Christ which my Lord Jesus and His Apostles warned His Church about.

How in the world can you not see the direct connection between the rider of the White Horse being the 1st Angel is somewhat beyond me. I don't think the Bible could be any clearer on that. The fact that you cannot see it indicates to me that your theology wont permit you to do so, and you have to make this separation to be able to hold on to whatever you have been convinced of. This must also mean that you have to disconnect the Red Horse rider with the 2nd Angel, the Black Horse rider with the 3rd Angel and the Pale Horse rider with the 4th Angel. I can only say that you are incorrect in this assumption and are basically ignoring outright what is written in the Bible.

If you don't care to go astray on that Rev.6 rider on the white horse like you did, then the rest of your supposition is worse and not worthy of note.

Your wording is a bit odd, but I take it to say that since I have somehow made an error in the understanding that the White Horse rider and the 1st Angel are connected, that you then use that as the basis to throw the rest of it out too. This is a shame since the obvious error is in your inability to see this clear cut connection.

 

[Trumpeter]

It was clear to me upon reading the scripture found in Zec 1 that this mention of Myrtle trees in this instance in association with the Angel of the Lord who is the Rider of the RedHorse, was somehow symbolic of something, but I had no idea what it could be.

Wow, The Lord just revealed this to me.

Josy did you know that Obama took a tree to give the PM of Israel when he was over there in March?

Did you know that the tree he gave Israel was the myrtle tree?

Could this be a prophetic indication that the red horse of war is about to ride in Israel?

 

[JosyWales]

Posted Today by Trumpeter, 06:30 PM


Quote

It was clear to me upon reading the scripture found in Zec 1 that this mention of Myrtle trees in this instance in association with the Angel of the Lord who is the Rider of the RedHorse, was somehow symbolic of something, but I had no idea what it could be.

Wow, The Lord just revealed this to me.

Josy did you know that Obama took a tree to give the PM of Israel when he was over there in March?

Did you know that the tree he gave Israel was the myrtle tree?

Could this be a prophetic indication that the red horse of war is about to ride in Israel?

Trumpeter, this might indeed have some type of symbolism from God indicating that the time is short. As you know, the bible says that the Lord speaks once, yea twice, but man perceives it not. I very much believe that the time is very short for these things to begin.

As I previously mentioned, I found out that Esther's Hebrew name, which is Hadassah, means Myrtle, I think that the symbolism of the Rider of the Red Horse in Zech standing among the Myrtle Trees might be a reference linking the prophecy of the 7 women and the Branch in Isa 4 (who I think is Michael) and the 7 thunders of Revelation and the Mighty and Strong Angel (who I also believe to be Michael) mentioned therein, since I think that Michael is the Rider of the Red Horse who is also the 2nd Angel of Revelation.

If this action by Obama is somehow indicative of the time being short, then I can see it being well within the way God speaks to us and yet we perceive it not.




I also see a post from Vet that I overlooked earlier and, since I don't want to appear as if I am avoiding anything I will respond now, though a bit late. Vets words are in Green:

JosyWales, on 31 Mar 2013 - 20:13, said:

I now understand that false Preterism is what is the cause of much of the negative feedback I am getting about my beliefs. I believe in NO FORM of Preterism, whether full or partial, and I have shown a straight forward method of proving it to not be so.


I have shown much biblical support that Michael WILL be born as a man, and will fulfill the prophecies of the Angel with the writers inkhorn in Ezekiel and the mighty and strong Angel of Revelation. Your example has no relation to this event. You mention that since several Angels appear in the bible (and are called men by the way since you forgot to mention that) that this somehow negates Micheal following the footsteps of Jesus by being born in the flesh. You do err.

I see no Biblical support for it. But I do see your false supposition of trying to link the Archangel Michael with being our Lord Jesus Christ (like in your above tirades about Michael being The Branch of the OT prophets), which is a Jehovah's Witness leaning to equate the Archangel Michael as being our Lord Jesus; that idea is not a doctrine written anywhere in God's Word. And what I've said about angels having the image of man is... very Biblical, but it still does not mean they have to manifest in flesh to be seen as men, on earth, as there is no Biblical evidence for that supposition of fleshy angels.

I would like to point out that I in NO WAY think that Michael and Jesus are the same person. Far from it. Michael is his own person and will be here to greet Jesus on his return to Earth. I and the JWs have had many lively discussions of our disagreement on this matter.

I also stand by the fact that, while every angel mentioned in the Bible is not necessarily flesh and blood, there are some instances in the OT that show that they certainly are, such as when they met with Abraham and Sarah and predicted her soon to be birth of Isaac. In the same manner, the 7 Angels of Revelation are absolutely real flesh and blood men, because they must be to fulfill the prophecy about them in Revelation. The timetable I have shown in my chart supports this completely.



JosyWales, on 31 Mar 2013 - 20:13, said:

First, I do not think it is any more crazy than thinking all these prophecies in both the OT and NT are already fulfilled. Preterism, either in full or part, to me is the ultimate of crazy, but everyone is entitled to their opinion. Also since Jesus Christ Himself established this unusual precedent of being born on earth in the flesh, to say that Michael could not follow suit is blind, especially considering the biblical evidence to support the physical actions being done on the earth by these people who are called both Angels and men, which have not been fulfilled yet as they are written no matter what any try to say.

You reveal you don't really understanding what the Preterist doctrines are about. Out of one side of your mouth you make the claim all these prophecies were already fulfilled, and then deny Preterist doctrine as a whole.

I really don't think Vet has ever really read my posts if he can say this. I have mentioned that some prophecies are related to events that occurred before Christ, but that is so that we can understand how they are meant to be applied to their actual fulfillment in Revelation, such as the 70 years of Jeremiah relating to the 70 weeks of Daniel, but I do not believe that many or even most of those OT prophecies have been fulfilled yet, for they are to be fulfilled in Revelation as my chart shows.

Preterism is from the word 'preter' which means 'to be past'. What those who began the Preterist doctrines of men have done is simply opened up a can of falseness so as to pick and choose whatever prophecy they don't want to throw in it, saying it was already fulfilled historically, with new additions thrown into the can gradually.

I agree with you on that. I believe that very little of the prophecies have been fulfilled yet. Those that try to say that 69 of the 70 weeks of Daniel are already fulfilled are a great example of what I believe to be a false interpretation, especially since I have shown above in the chart that these days are to be taken literally and that no part of the 70 weeks has occurred yet.

Actually, to assume that just because our Lord Jesus was born of woman (to die on the cross), thinking that means any of God's angels could be born flesh, that reveals strong deception against what God's Word teaches. The word angel itself simply means a messenger, but in the Biblical context it is put for Heavenly messengers not of this world, not born as flesh men. That's Bible 101, which it sounds like you may have never had or need to get back to.

Perhaps I should treat you to a little Bible 101 and refresh your memory about the above mentioned story in which Angels are identified as men. It occurs in Gen 18-19. The first time in Chapter 18 it speaks of the Lord coming to Abraham in the form of 3 men, with the term men and the Lord used interchangeably. However a better reference in in Ch 19 where it first says:

Gen 19:1 ¶ And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing [them] rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;

Gen 19:3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.

Lot proceeds to feed and bath their feet and as we all know, eating was the way in which our Lord Jesus proved to the disciples that He was indeed flesh. Further in the same chapter these 2 Angels are directly called men here:

Gen 19:12 ¶ And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring [them] out of this place:

Gen 19:13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it

So as you can see, there is shown here that Angels can be men, since it identifies them as such. Now, were these Angels born on Earth or did they take on this form just for this mission. This is not stated either way, but I am only referencing it here to show Angels being called and seen as men, even to the point of eating and being touched, has biblical backing. It is in this way that I know that Angels can indeed be men if that is the will of God and I think it is so in the case of the 7 Angels of Revelation, especially since all the other evidence I have provided points to this being the case.

 

[veteran]

Well, lets take a look at this.

First, we need to understand what Gematria is. Since I didn't know, and I figure there may be some others as well, I looked it up and this is what I found:

Gematria or gimatria (Hebrew: גימטריא/גימטריה‎ gēmaṭriyā) is a traditional Jewish system of assigning numerical value to a word or phrase, in the belief that words or phrases with identical numerical values bear some relation to each other, or bear some relation to the number itself as it may apply to a person's age, the calendar year, or the like.

I didn't know I was doing that, but perhaps in a way, I am, but not in this traditional way.

I did notice that there seems to be a direct link between Noah, Daniel and Job in Ezekiel and the first 3 angels of Revelation, and perhaps that is what he is talking about. He does mention a bit later something that might be an example of what he means, but it is a very bad example. If he had others, I would like to hear them.

There can even appear to be direct links to assigned Scripture verse numbers in different Bible Books that are covering the very same topic. Doesn't mean that's a tool we should depend upon. Different numerical values do have meaning in God's Word, but not with applying them in some mystical numerology system, which essentially is the system of the Hebrew Gematria from Jewish Kabbalah practice. Remember the Bible Codes junk? There will always be men that God has not opened up His Word to in understanding that will seek some secret method to get around the limitations He set upon them. And the more precise and scientific their system seems to them, the more they fall into the trap of their own making. God is able to create grand illusions for those who think to find a hidden path to Him, with their trying to take the Kingdom of Heaven by force. And to think, all they had to do in the first place was simply believe on Him and ask Him for understanding in His Word, and study to show theirselves approved of Him.