SLAIN IN THE SPIRIT?

[marksman]

marksman,

That's a red herring logical fallacy of a response. You did not deal with the issues I raised. You were off and running with your own twist and turn on the topic about the Brethren Bible College. That's not the topic we are discussing.

We cannot have a logical discussion when you do this.

Oz

Whatever a red herring logical fallacy is. Try putting it in everyday language. We are not all as clever as you.

And you missed the point of the post which was that I do not base my study of anything on one person's views or one verse of scripture. I canvass varying viewpoints and the overall revelation of scripture.

 

[marksman]

I will thank who I want to thank, and I will do it in my own words.

That doesn't alter the fact that you don't speak for women everywhere.

 

[marksman]

Driving a car to church, or having a building to meet in are not on the same level at all....I know you aren't the one who tried to shove those kinds of things into this foolish debate...but I felt that it needed to be said. There is no sin in using a car to get to where you need to go, including church, and certainly no sin in having a church building to meet in.

Which only goes to show you pick and choose those things that suit your theology. You slip and slide ad infinitum. No none said it was a sin to have a church building to meet in. I raised the issue and what I said was that nowhere in scripture will you find the church putting up a building to meet in so we should not do the same according to your understanding of scripture. So you slip and slide and approve of buildings which are NOT in scripture and disapprove of going down under the power of spirit because you claim it is not in scripture. So your theology is not based on what is or isn't in scripture. It is based on what you think is right or wrong.

Slip and slide. Slip and slide.

 

[marksman]

Am I "picking it apart" when I compare what the writer of that article is saying with what is written in the Bible? The Bible is my final authority on these matters....as it ought to be every Christian's final authority...and the plain fact is that there is no Biblical support for it. What that writer represented does not constitute Biblical support, as I have shown. Basically, Stan, you are chasing the wind.

And there is no biblical support for the church to put up buildings to meet in but that doesn't stop you claiming it is OK to do so. Why isn't the bible your final authority on that subject? The plain fact is there is no biblical support for buildings and the fact that you deem them OK shows that the bible is NOT your final authority on these matters. Your final authority is you.

 

[mjrhealth]

God doesnt do party tricks,

Mat_24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect

Mar_8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.

Luk 11:29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.
Luk 11:30 For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation

satan loves the flesh make it happy and the people flock in.

 

[marksman]

marksman,

In another post, you identified the fact that you attended a Brethren Bible College. Since you live in Melbourne, you are a fellow Aussie with me. Does this mean you are associated with the Christian Brethren? If you are, it may be true that the women in your assembly and other assemblies you know have no desire to have authority over men.

However, these are the facts as I know them. Women in Brethren assemblies (Plymouth Brethren, Gospel Hall) are NOT ALLOWED to speak in a mixed church gathering here in Qld. They are to remain totally silent. Even in Assemblies that have open worship, women are not allowed to even give out/announce a hymn to sing.

How do I know? My parents were Christian Brethren (they are now at home with Jesus) and my sister and brother-in-law currently attend a Christian Brethren assembly where he has been an elder. One of my closest friends attends and preaches in a Christian Brethren assembly where women are not allowed to participate in public ministry (apart from playing the organ).

It's part of their theology that women must be silent when the church gathers. I'm not talking theory. I know from practical experience.

Oz

No, I am not part of the Brethren movement. In England, I studied at a Brethren Bible College and then spent 10 years in a charismatic Brethren assembly. I don't know much about the brethren movement here as like all denominations they express themselves in different ways.

Where I live there are two Brethren Assemblies in the one town. One is now called the community church, has a paid pastor and youth pastor. it tries to emulate the charismatic church but fails miserably as they have a notice in the entrance that says "We do not accept the gifts of the Spirit here."

You would not know the other assembly existed. It meets in a building behind tall fences. Has no signage outside and it does no advertising. I pass it on the way to our house fellowship during the week. I usually follow a line of expensive cars turning right into the building.

In my charismatic Brethren Assembly in the UK, women were allowed to do a lot of things. The one thing that was missing from their repertoire was teaching men. Otherwise, everything was open to them. Our first national conference was organised by a committee of five people. Three men and two women. I was one of the men and my wife was one of the women.

 

[Barrd]

So you're claiming to be MORE than a MERE human being? Well that would explain a lot.

Of course not, Stan. There is no need for you to say such a thing.

If you think you're perspective is the ONLY correct one then why are you here? Obviously NOT to seek truth or learn.

Why are you here, Stan? Are you here to learn? Or do you see yourself as a teacher?
There are those here that I can learn from, and there are those who have nothing to teach me. There may even be one or two that might learn something from me.

As far as the article is concerned, I'm sure if you look hard enough, you'll find a way to connect with him.

I'm really not that interested. I read what he had to say, and I checked it out with the Bible.
And what I found was that there is no real support in the verses he listed.

 

[Barrd]

Which only goes to show you pick and choose those things that suit your theology. You slip and slide ad infinitum. No none said it was a sin to have a church building to meet in. I raised the issue and what I said was that nowhere in scripture will you find the church putting up a building to meet in so we should not do the same according to your understanding of scripture. So you slip and slide and approve of buildings which are NOT in scripture and disapprove of going down under the power of spirit because you claim it is not in scripture. So your theology is not based on what is or isn't in scripture. It is based on what you think is right or wrong.

Slip and slide. Slip and slide.

What we were discussing was gifts of the Holy Spirit.
How you get that having a church building or driving a car are gifts of the Holy Spirit is beyond me.

My theology is based on the Lord, Jesus Christ.

 

[Barrd]

And there is no biblical support for the church to put up buildings to meet in but that doesn't stop you claiming it is OK to do so. Why isn't the bible your final authority on that subject? The plain fact is there is no biblical support for buildings and the fact that you deem them OK shows that the bible is NOT your final authority on these matters. Your final authority is you.

Didn't I just address this?
You're repeating yourself, here, Marksman....a sure sign that you're about to have an "episode".
You need to calm down.

When my son gets this way, what we usually do is recite the Shepherd's Psalm together. It works for us.
You might want to try it.

 

[mjrhealth]

The plain fact is there is no biblical support for buildings and the fact that you deem them OK shows that the bible is NOT your final authority on these matters. Your final authority is you.

Actually it is the Holy Spirit, Jesus and God that are the final authority on all things, its when they get left out we end up with this mess..

1Jn_5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

1Jn_5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

 

[marksman]

You are the one accusing me, 'That is your perception'. I gave you an example of your flaming comment about The Barrd. She does not deserve to get that kind of goading from you. It has nothing to do with perception. It is what you did. To call her, 'You silly, silly woman ' is goading her and is an unchristian action.

Are you telling me that people crawling around the floor and barking like dogs, allegedly under the influence of the Holy Spirit, is the work of God?

You ask of Rom 16:7 (ESV), 'And how can Junia be a kinsman if he is a woman?' You were the one who told me you had studied Greek. I cannot believe you made this kind of comment without providing me with the exegesis.

Your claim is that 'None of those verses say that they taught men'. None of these verses said that they did not teach men.

I must admit that it doesn't bother me one little bit what people call me. I guess that is one blessing of being autistic. I am very secure in myself and what I believe. So, sticks and stones and all that is water off a duck's back.

Can you show me where I said barking like a dog is the work of God?

When I have made it clear that Junia being a woman does not have a consensus and people keep going on that Junia is a she it invites derisive comment like that.

As for none of these verses say they did not teach men...roll of the eyes!! I study the word of God to learn what IT DOES SAY, not what it doesn't say. Just imagine going into the lecture theatre at Bible College and the lecturer says "In the lecture this morning we are going to study the gospel based on what the Bible doesn't say."

Gimme strength.

 

[marksman]

 

[marksman]

Didn't I just address this? You're repeating yourself, here, Marksman....a sure sign that you're about to have an "episode". You need to calm down.

No you didn't. You avoided addressing it. I repeat it because you have not addressed it. Slip and slide. Slip and slide. As for your snide and derogatory remark. Ha ha ha ha ha .

 

[mjrhealth]

As for none of these verses say they did not teach men...roll of the eyes!! I study the word of God to learn what IT DOES SAY, not what it doesn't say. Just imagine going into the lecture theatre at Bible College and the lecturer says "In the lecture this morning we are going to study the gospel based on what the Bible doesn't say."

Can you imagine what it would be liek if christians got on there knees before God and cried "teach me", the whole world would be rocked. But who need God, who need teh Holy Spirirt when we have men to teach us and the bible.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Belongs to nothing and no one else

 

[marksman]

What we were discussing was gifts of the Holy Spirit.
How you get that having a church building or driving a car are gifts of the Holy Spirit is beyond me.

My theology is based on the Lord, Jesus Christ.

​More slip and slide. What we were discussing your penchance to make things up as you go along. Can you show me where I said that having a church building or driving a car are gifts of the Spirit?

Last time you said your theology is based on the Word of God. Now you are saying it is based on the Lord Jesus Christ. Slip and slide. Slip and slide.

 

[Barrd]

Can you imagine what it would be liek if christians got on there knees before God and cried "teach me", the whole world would be rocked. But who need God, who need teh Holy Spirirt when we have men to teach us and the bible.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Belongs to nothing and no one else

For once, Mj, I totally agree with you.
Good post.

 

[Barrd]

​More slip and slide. What we were discussing your penchance to make things up as you go along. Can you show me where I said that having a church building or driving a car are gifts of the Spirit?

I guess you must be involved in a separate discussion. I am discussing the gifts of the Holy Spirit...what He does, and what He does not do.

By the way, the word you were looking for is "penchant"...not "penchance". Just trying to help you out.

Last time you said your theology is based on the Word of God. Now you are saying it is based on the Lord Jesus Christ. Slip and slide. Slip and slide.

Do you see a difference between the things Jesus teaches and the Word of God?
That is interesting...
You do know that Jesus is God manifested in the flesh, I hope?
Therefore, every word out of His mouth is the Word of God....

 

[Barrd]

Uh....what?
I think you may have missed something here, Marksman....

 

[Barrd]

No you didn't. You avoided addressing it. I repeat it because you have not addressed it. Slip and slide. Slip and slide. As for your snide and derogatory remark. Ha ha ha ha ha .

Excuse me, what "snide and derogatory remark"?
My son, who is autistic, also repeats himself when he gets excited, and what I tell you about reciting the Shepherd's Psalm is true...it helps him to calm down.
I was actually making a helpful suggestion.
I have no animosity toward you, Marksman...in spite of the rude treatment I have been receiving from you all through this thread.

I belong to Jesus Christ.

 

[OzSpen]

Basically by your comments, but let's not beat around the bush....HAVE YOU received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues?

How do you know they were real languages if you didn't know the languages? you seem well prepared to accept second hand accounts as factual but not first hand accounts, nor what the scriptures say? How convenient is that?

We're not discussing miracles Barrd. The devil may APPEAR as an angel of light, but he can NOT duplicate real miracles or gifts of the Holy Spirit. John is talking about the spirit of false teaching, NOT works of the Holy Spirit. Sad you don't see the difference.

Careful Barrd....he may just knock you over one day for doubting what He can do.

Acts 9:4 - And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

Revelation 1:17 - And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Ezekiel 1:28 - As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so [was] the appearance of the brightness round about. This [was] the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw [it], I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

John 18:6 - As soon then as he had said unto them, I am [he], they went backward, and fell to the ground.

2 Chronicles 5:14 - So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of God.

I even gave them to you here in the KJV.

Stan,

You are really stretching hermeneutics big time to make these verses you have quoted refer to being 'slain in the Spirit'. The context of these quotes tells a very different story.

So do you believe that a person needs the initial evidence of speaking in tongues to demonstrate he/she has been filled with the Holy Spirit? Is that your theology?

Oz