SLAIN IN THE SPIRIT?

[StanJ]

Womenshould remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.A womanshould learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;she must be quiet.

Scripture is very clear about this.. Jesus chose men as his apostles and when they voted to replace Judas they chose a man. No where in scripture or historical writings does it say a woman was promoted to a position of authority in the church. Our early church fathers preached against it. This practice of promoting women to positions of authority (priest, bishops, deacons whatever word you want to use) is a tradition started by man, not God or the apostles.

This is what happens when you extract something OUT of context. Paul was quoting from a letter he had received about this issue, he was NOT making a declarative statement, and after quoting it, he made the statement in v36-39. Notice v36 is a rhetorical question, which Paul answers himself in 37-39. You also have to understand the historical setting that this occurred in, where women and men were separated and in Judaism they would yell out to there husbands asking what the speaker meant.
Bottom line is, those two verse cannot be extracted on their own to make a rule that never existed before in terms of women being subservient to men in the congregation.
I suggest you spend a whole lot more time studying this issue, as your perspective is very skewed and not very well informed.

 

[OzSpen]

Oz,

That's the only cryptic verse dealing with tongues I know of. Given that in most of the other verses, it is pretty clear that human tongues are meant, I think we can accept that this one, though unclear, must be referring to the same phenomenon.
Remember, some of Paul's writing contains things that are difficult to understand. I think this is one of them.


If you saw my testimony about my friend who found herself praying in tongues, I think I was clear that she didn't understand what she was saying just at first. It wasn't till the lady she was helping exclaimed that she hadn't heard that old Hawaiian dialect since she had been a little child with her grandmother that my friend understood what she had been saying.

1Co 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
1Co 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

Imagine how frustrating it would be, to have God giving you a message for the people, but you can't tell anyone about it, because you don't understand it yourself.

You mean the way a Legal Assistant might need an interpreter when dealing with an illegal alien, for instance?

That's going on where I live, as well, Oz. Everyone is in a huge hurry to "show off" their "relationship" with God.
That chaos is one of the major objections.

Seeing as it is Paul who said that, you'd think they'd "get it"...But...

Barrd

The Barrd,

I have no problem with it being a language that is understood by somebody. However the important issue is that in a congregation where such a message is given, there MUST BE an interpretation so that those present will not be like 'foreigners' to the speakers (1 Cor 14:11 ESV).

What do the Scriptures state about the nature of the gift of tongues (glossolalia)?

The gift of tongues is a gift that God continues to give by his Spirit as a spiritual gift. We know this from 1 Corinthians 14:1-5,

Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. 2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. 3 On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation. 4 The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church. 5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up (ESV, emphasis added).

We are to earnestly desire all spiritual gifts, especially prophecy, but the genuine gift of tongues and interpretation continues. There is no place in the church gathering for any who speaks in tongues without interpretation. The exhortation from 1 Cor 14:13 (ESV) is, ‘One who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret’. Why? It is in required that the gift is intelligible to the remainder of the congregation that does not understand the tongue.

However, these verses teach that there is a genuine gift of tongues where one ‘speaks not to men but to God … for he utters mysteries in the Spirit’ (14:2). Please note that the biblical language does not speak of glossolalia as 'gibberish' but as speaking 'to God' and people uttering 'mysteries in the Spirit'. I have had people tell me that the alleged gift of tongues is really 'gibberish'. I find that offensive and blasphemous to the Holy Spirit's ministry in Scripture and to the congregation.

While the apostle Paul gives a preference for prophecy as a gift in the church as it ‘builds up the church’, he still gives this important teaching about tongues:

• ‘I want you all to speak in tongues’ (1 Cor 14:5 ESV). The Barrd, do you want to be obedient to this biblical teaching? :)

So the gift of tongues was available to all NT believers. Notice the contrast:

• ‘The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up’ (1 Cor 14:5 ESV).

So the gift of prophecy approximately equals tongues with interpretation for the edification of the church.

In Christ,
Oz

 

[OzSpen]

This is what happens when you extract something OUT of context. Paul was quoting from a letter he had received about this issue, he was NOT making a declarative statement, and after quoting it, he made the statement in v36-39. Notice v36 is a rhetorical question, which Paul answers himself in 37-39. You also have to understand the historical setting that this occurred in, where women and men were separated and in Judaism they would yell out to there husbands asking what the speaker meant.
Bottom line is, those two verse cannot be extracted on their own to make a rule that never existed before in terms of women being subservient to men in the congregation.
I suggest you spend a whole lot more time studying this issue, as your perspective is very skewed and not very well informed.

Stan,

Which of the words of 1 Cor 14 do you think are coming from the letter Paul is quoting? My study has revealed that 1 Cor 14:34-35 being regarded as a quote, is only one of the possible ways of overcoming the difficulty with this passage.

See these articles for some other options: ,

• 'Examining the authenticity of 1 Corinthians 14:34-35…Part 4: a review of various interpretations'.
• 'Interpretations and Applications of 1 Corinthians 14:34-35'.

Oz

 

[Wormwood]

No, but that IS the point. The Greek does NOT connote it being directed at ONLY men, so asserting that is what Paul meant, is inserting a bias into scripture.
Not only that but the context of Paul saying women should not teach, is NOT in the context of corporate gatherings, but in the context of the family.

Huh? This makes no sense to me. Paul speaks to Timothy about women teaching in the context of eldership and deacons in the church and the Greek word for "brothers" in a greeting has nothing to do with Paul's discussion about women in leadership. I have never heard these arguments proposed by those arguing for women preachers/teachers. In any event, I suggest we start a thread on the issue if we want to discuss it so we don't derail the discussion of the Spirit slaying phenomenon.

 

[Wormwood]

Wormwood,

You have provided not one Scripture to substantiate what you are saying.

I have provided evidence from the Greek lexicons and an eminent word study (Kittel) that when adelphos is addressed to a group (as in the Corinthian church) as in 1 Cor 14:6; 14:26, it means brothers and sisters who are engaged in vocal ministry in the church.

Your 2 paragraphs are a promotion of the traditional view against women in a teaching/preaching/eldership ministry in the local church. However, you have not dealt with the difficulties of this view when consistent exegesis is attempted. I have tried to deal with some of these matters in this thread.

Oz

Oz, I was just trying to get clarification. I'd be happy to discuss this in detail with you in a thread dedicated to this topic.

 

[tom55]

This is what happens when you extract something OUT of context. Paul was quoting from a letter he had received about this issue, he was NOT making a declarative statement, and after quoting it, he made the statement in v36-39. Notice v36 is a rhetorical question, which Paul answers himself in 37-39. You also have to understand the historical setting that this occurred in, where women and men were separated and in Judaism they would yell out to there husbands asking what the speaker meant.
Bottom line is, those two verse cannot be extracted on their own to make a rule that never existed before in terms of women being subservient to men in the congregation.
I suggest you spend a whole lot more time studying this issue, as your perspective is very skewed and not very well informed.

I am not sure what I am extracting out of a very clear statement from scripture. In the beginning of the letter Paul says: I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers and sisters, some from Ce’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you.

He has made it clear women can do other things in the church ( such as prophecy) but they can't be elders, priest, presbyter's (leaders of the church)....whatever you want to call them. The reason he made it clear was so that all of them would agree with one another in what they say so that there would be no divisions among them and they would be perfectly united in mind and thought. Paul was attempting to end their quarrels with VERY CLEAR instructions.

Jesus did not choose men to lead.
No woman in the NT was a preacher.
The apostles practiced what Jesus taught them and chose a man to replace Judas and men to start new churches, not women.
Paul preached against it in Corinthians and Timothy.
The VERY early church fathers wrote letters supporting the fact that women can't be ordained and they based this on scripture.
The early church did not practice it and the early Christians that did were called heretics.

Here is my answer to your suggestion that I spend a whole lot more time studying this issue and your accusation that my perspective is very skewed and not very well informed:

This issue was settled 2000 years ago. We are not reinventing the wheel here. It was settled in scripture and by church theologians that were alive within 200 years after the death of Jesus. Men much smarter than you and I. So if you are saying that my perspective is skewed then I am proud to be put in the category of some of the greatest Christian theologians and apologist of all time. Thank You StanJ for the compliment.

 

[Barrd]

The Barrd,

I have no problem with it being a language that is understood by somebody. However the important issue is that in a congregation where such a message is given, there MUST BE an interpretation so that those present will not be like 'foreigners' to the speakers (1 Cor 14:11 ESV).

What do the Scriptures state about the nature of the gift of tongues (glossolalia)?

The gift of tongues is a gift that God continues to give by his Spirit as a spiritual gift. We know this from 1 Corinthians 14:1-5,


We are to earnestly desire all spiritual gifts, especially prophecy, but the genuine gift of tongues and interpretation continues. There is no place in the church gathering for any who speaks in tongues without interpretation. The exhortation from 1 Cor 14:13 (ESV) is, ‘One who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret’. Why? It is in required that the gift is intelligible to the remainder of the congregation that does not understand the tongue.

However, these verses teach that there is a genuine gift of tongues where one ‘speaks not to men but to God … for he utters mysteries in the Spirit’ (14:2). Please note that the biblical language does not speak of glossolalia as 'gibberish' but as speaking 'to God' and people uttering 'mysteries in the Spirit'. I have had people tell me that the alleged gift of tongues is really 'gibberish'. I find that offensive and blasphemous to the Holy Spirit's ministry in Scripture and to the congregation.

While the apostle Paul gives a preference for prophecy as a gift in the church as it ‘builds up the church’, he still gives this important teaching about tongues:

• ‘I want you all to speak in tongues’ (1 Cor 14:5 ESV). The Barrd, do you want to be obedient to this biblical teaching? :)

So the gift of tongues was available to all NT believers. Notice the contrast:

• ‘The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up’ (1 Cor 14:5 ESV).

So the gift of prophecy approximately equals tongues with interpretation for the edification of the church.

In Christ,
Oz

Okay...I'm going to make a rather long post here, but I think we need to make clear what Paul is talking about:

1Co 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
1Co 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
1Co 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
1Co 14:6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
1Co 14:7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
1Co 14:8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
1Co 14:9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
1Co 14:10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
1Co 14:11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
1Co 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
1Co 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
1Co 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
1Co 14:16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
1Co 14:17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
1Co 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
1Co 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
1Co 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
1Co 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
1Co 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
1Co 14:24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
1Co 14:25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

I still believe that "tongues" are human languages, not known to the speaker. If I came to you speaking in Cantonese, (for instance), and neither one of us spoke Cantonese, or understood it, how would you know what I was saying? You wouldn't, of course. Unless, of course, we had someone with us who could interpret.
But Paul says that he would rather speak five words with his understanding than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

He seems to think that we ought to desire the gift of prophesy over and above the gift of tongues. I think he's right....

 

[Barrd]

Okay.
Look, guys, this is how it is.
Women are teaching and preaching, and participating in the ministry in every possible way...and God has blessed their efforts.
I know this irks your souls, but that's just the way it is.
If God had a problem with these gals doing what they do, why is He blessing them?

And if God is okay with it, do you really wish to be found fighting against God?

Now, how 'bout we get back to the actual topic of this thread?

If you insist on discussing this, make a new thread where everyone who is interested might have a chance to participate...

 

[mjrhealth]

Okay.
Look, guys, this is how it is.
Women are teaching and preaching, and participating in the ministry in every possible way...and God has blessed their efforts.
I know this irks your souls, but that's just the way it is.
If God had a problem with these gals doing what they do, why is He blessing them?

And if God is okay with it, do you really wish to be found fighting against God?

Now, how 'bout we get back to the actual topic of this thread?

If you insist on discussing this, make a new thread where everyone who is interested might have a chance to participate...

In this one I completely agree with you. God is no respector of person, it is man who has isolated women not God.

 

[OzSpen]

Okay...I'm going to make a rather long post here, but I think we need to make clear what Paul is talking about:

1Co 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
1Co 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
1Co 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
1Co 14:6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
1Co 14:7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
1Co 14:8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
1Co 14:9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
1Co 14:10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
1Co 14:11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
1Co 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
1Co 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
1Co 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
1Co 14:16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
1Co 14:17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
1Co 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
1Co 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
1Co 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
1Co 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
1Co 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
1Co 14:24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
1Co 14:25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

I still believe that "tongues" are human languages, not known to the speaker. If I came to you speaking in Cantonese, (for instance), and neither one of us spoke Cantonese, or understood it, how would you know what I was saying? You wouldn't, of course. Unless, of course, we had someone with us who could interpret.
But Paul says that he would rather speak five words with his understanding than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

He seems to think that we ought to desire the gift of prophesy over and above the gift of tongues. I think he's right....

The Barrd,

I agree. But to use the verses you quoted, we learn:

1Co 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
1Co 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

It it not an either or. It is both and.

However, you forgot to include 1 Cor 14:39 from your favourite KJV, 'Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues'.

Yes, Paul prefers intelligibility when the church gathers. That includes prophecy AND tongues + interpretation. He does prefer prophecy, but has no problem with tongues if it is accompanied by the gift of interpretation because that equals intelligibility.

Oz

 

[Barrd]

The Barrd,

I agree. But to use the verses you quoted, we learn:

It it not an either or. It is both and.

However, you forgot to include 1 Cor 14:39 from your favourite KJV, 'Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues'.

Yes, Paul prefers intelligibility when the church gathers. That includes prophecy AND tongues + interpretation. He does prefer prophecy, but has no problem with tongues if it is accompanied by the gift of interpretation because that equals intelligibility.

Oz

I could have posted the entire chapter, I suppose. There is quite a bit more.

There is this:

1Co 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
1Co 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

And again:
1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Let us not forget this jewel:
1Co 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

And finally:
1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
1Co 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

I think that about covers all the important stuff that has to do with speaking in tongues.
I am still as sure as I can be that tongues are human languages.

Have you ever wondered whether the language the Apostles spoke in Acts 2 might have been the language all mankind spoke before God confused our languages at Babel? Perhaps if we heard it, we'd hear whatever language we are born in.
If this is so, then we are both right.

The Barrd

 

[marksman]

Well you certainly said God does not allow women to teach men, which is just as false as the former.

No Stan, that is not the case. I could say to my son, you can't use the power saw but you can use any of my other tools. That does not mean he cannot help me. All it means is that the use of power tools is not allowed because he is not old enough to use them.

 

[marksman]

That's another red herring! :wub:



You are incorrect in saying 'deaconess' is used in only one translation, the ISV. It is also used in The New Jerusalem Bible in Rom 16:1.

If you understood that the Greek has only 2 genders for this word, diakonos (masculine) and diakonon (neuter) - used in Rom 16:1 - and NO feminine, you would understand why many of the translations use 'Phoebe, a servant' (ESV) or 'Phoebe, a deacon' (NRSV). That fact that Phoebe is a 'sister' in the Lord, and thus a female, makes her a female deacon.

Oz

No, that is not another red herring. That is the truth.

So every women who is my sister in the Lord is a deacon?

 

[marksman]

Your 2 paragraphs are a promotion of the traditional view against women in a teaching/preaching/eldership ministry in the local church. However, you have not dealt with the difficulties of this view when consistent exegesis is attempted. I have tried to deal with some of these matters in this thread.

I don't think so as the 25 verses that speak about Elders are male. Can't get anything more conclusive than that.

 

[Barrd]

No Stan, that is not the case. I could say to my son, you can't use the power saw but you can use any of my other tools. That does not mean he cannot help me. All it means is that the use of power tools is not allowed because he is not old enough to use them.

I can see you are not going to give up, nor are you willing to start another thread, but must derail this one.

Now, I just want to know one thing.
Why does this bother you so much?
If you don't want to be in a church where women participate in the ministry, there is a simple answer.
Don't go to a church where women participate in the ministry.

Now, could we please get back to the actual topic of this thread?

 

[StanJ]

Stan,

Which of the words of 1 Cor 14 do you think are coming from the letter Paul is quoting? My study has revealed that 1 Cor 14:34-35 being regarded as a quote, is only one of the possible ways of overcoming the difficulty with this passage.

See these articles for some other options: ,

• 'Examining the authenticity of 1 Corinthians 14:34-35…Part 4: a review of various interpretations'.
• 'Interpretations and Applications of 1 Corinthians 14:34-35'.

Oz

As I said, v36.

 

[StanJ]

As long as we all understand that "tongues" are human languages, as spoken in Acts 2.

That is YOUR opinion, but not fact. Tongues spoken in Acts 2 were NOT known languages and were NOT the tongues Paul speaks about in 1 Cor 14.

 

[StanJ]

I don't think so as the 25 verses that speak about Elders are male. Can't get anything more conclusive than that.

You actually have to SHOW it to make it conclusive. What 25 verses?

 

[StanJ]

Huh? This makes no sense to me. Paul speaks to Timothy about women teaching in the context of eldership and deacons in the church and the Greek word for "brothers" in a greeting has nothing to do with Paul's discussion about women in leadership. I have never heard these arguments proposed by those arguing for women preachers/teachers. In any event, I suggest we start a thread on the issue if we want to discuss it so we don't derail the discussion of the Spirit slaying phenomenon.

Sorry, we were talking about 1 Cor 14, not what Paul said in Timothy, but I agree, IF someone wants to undertake it as the OP. I have no desire to do so, but would contribute.

 

[StanJ]

No Stan, that is not the case. I could say to my son, you can't use the power saw but you can use any of my other tools. That does not mean he cannot help me. All it means is that the use of power tools is not allowed because he is not old enough to use them.

You're just digging a deeper hole for yourself with that analogy. I said YOU advocated women cannot teach. YOUR assertion is wrong, let's not play words games.