Smoke Screens?

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Grailhunter

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The debate over "works and or good deeds" was a question of the early church. The Apostle Paul and other believed that saved was
an instant in time. Salvation was a journey with elements that Paul broke down to several. Works have no effect on saved...it does
salvation...the walk with God.
 

justbyfaith

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NO JBF,,,you're doing what another poster does.
I'm speaking to you NOW...I don't send you to links.

I could explain John 5:28-29 in 10 words because it's easy and it's the truth.
Could YOU do the same?

Romans 2:6-11, 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile: But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile. For there is no respect of persons with God.

We must be certain in our understanding of this passage to know that, while our deeds will be judged by the Lord, even that we will be judged by our deeds, that our salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ; and that not of ourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9.

It is that, if anyone is saved by grace through faith, they are made into a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17); and that the attitude of a new creature in Christ is that he, through patient continuance in well-doing, seeks for glory and honour and immortality. The born again believer is not the kind to be contentious and/or disobedient to the truth. Eternal life belongs to those who have an eternal perspective and who fear the possibility of an eternity without Christ. Indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, belong to those who obey unrighteousness. To those who work good there will be glory and honour and peace.

The question arises, where is there anyone that it can be said that he works good? is it not written that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God? Apart from Christ, there is no one who does good: however, those who are in Christ are not under the law; and therefore what the law says to those who are under the law does not apply; because they are not under the law. Sin shall not have dominion over them because they are not under the law but under grace.

There is no respect of persons with God. This indicates that every man shall be judged on the basis of his works. If the works that he has done in life indicate the inner transformation that amounts to being born again (through faith alone in Jesus Christ), then he will enter in.

Now everyone has done evil; for we were all conceived in sin. Therefore will not all be raised unto the resurrection of damnation (John 5:29)? No; because for those who are in Christ, not only has their sin been forgiven/washed away, but they have been given a new heart and a new spirit (Ezekiel 36:25-27) so that from the point of being born again on, their inclination is towards good instead of their former evil practice. Note that God looks on the heart; so He considers mere anger without a cause to be as murder; and lusting after a woman to be as adultery. If you lack integrity, so that your yea is nay and/or your nay is yea; then you fall short in the area of being truthful; and God might consider you to be a liar. There are exceptions to this, as with the psychiatric system of this world, where a man is forced into med compliance so that his nay becomes yea whether he wants it to be or not. And he does not have the right to refuse it in the long run, because they will simply wait for a period of time and then come after him again.

But if we seek for glory, honour, and immortality, the result will be eternal life; because anyone who seeks immortality will eventually find the way into it; and that way is through the door, which door is Jesus Christ of Nazareth, even calling on His name in surrender and faith.

Why don't people realize and believe that Jesus took care of the sins of the flesh problem by paying for them on the cross?

If we live according to the flesh, we will die, Romans 8:12-13.

LOL

Not my style.

It is mine though.

This gets boring.....

YOU'RE ALREADY SAVED!

Nobody I know believes a person is saved by good works.
You do good works AFTER you're saved.

So why all the fuss about you saying that we maintain our salvation by works?

If you are saved by grace, then you are saved by grace all the way through...

But if you are saved by works, then grace isn't anywhere in the equation...see Romans 11:5-6 (kjv).

Also, if we maintain our salvation through good works, then we are indeed saved by works to a certain extent...and yet this is contrary to Ephesians 2:9 and context.
 

justbyfaith

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NO JBF,,,you're doing what another poster does.
I'm speaking to you NOW...I don't send you to links.

I could explain John 5:28-29 in 10 words because it's easy and it's the truth.
Could YOU do the same?
You can be stubborn and not go to my link...it just means that you are not open to the truth of what is posted there.

But if you wanted me to post what was in the link so that you can respond to it more easily...then I have done so in the post above.
 

Grailhunter

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You can be stubborn and not go to my link...it just means that you are not open to the truth of what is posted there.

But if you wanted me to post what was in the link so that you can respond to it more easily...then I have done so in the post above.

Say what you mean here.
 

GodsGrace

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Ah, no, no. I don't want to get pulled into a conversation again where both sides have partial truth and partial error. It never goes anywhere good. Besides, I have gout and I can't eat worms. :p
How do you see this "partial truth"?
 

H. Richard

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The ONLY sin that condemns is that of unbelief??

Brother, I must go now ---
But you state doctrine that can bring to the loss of a soul's salvation.
James 3:1
YOU will be judge by God and I fear for those who heed your words.

The Holy Spirit is placed IN US.
This is why Jesus said He must GO AWAY so the HOLY SPIRIT can come to be our paraclete.
John 16:7

And are you going to exegete
John 5:28-29 for me ??

When are you going to understand that according to prophesy this age of grace (over 1900 years) is not the age of the law which has passed away.

This grace age will pass away too with the completion of the body of Christ (this age of grace)

When the children of God have been taken (caught up) out of this world God will go back to dealing with the Jews. There will be 7 years of God pouring out His wrath on those that refused to believe Him, both Jew and Gentile. This is the promised "Jacob's trouble", meaning Israel's trouble. After that 7 years Jesus will reign for a 1,000 years on this earth in a Jewish kingdom. At the end of the 1,000 years all those who have not already been resurrected will be resurrected and judged. But the children of God have already been taken out of the world before the 7 years because they will not go through the wrath of God on an unbelieving world.

John 5:28-30
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 and come forth — those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.
NKJV

this will help;
First I wish to say that what is written in this post is what I believe. I do not write it to refute, or criticize anyone. I give everyone the right to believe as they wish. I also take that right for myself. I offer this post as food for thought.

My interpretation of 1 Cor. 15:20-28

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

*** No one had been resurrected into new bodies that will not die until Christ. He is the firstfruit.

21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

*** Indeed, "All men shall be resurrected from the dead (made alive)." The use of the word "all" is inclusive and means all. In John 5:27-29 below we see again that “all” men will be resurrected.

23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.

*** NOTE, NOTE; The statement "But each one in his own order" indicates that there is a set order (time) for each event. It is also important to notice the words "those who are Christ's at His coming." There is no mention of those who are not Christ's because they will not be resurrected at His coming. This is important and must not be overlooked. See John 5:27-29 below. --- It should also be noted that between verse 23 and 24 there will be an earthly kingdom rule of Christ for a thousand years.

24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.
28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
(NKJ)

*** During the 1000 year rule of Christ (verse 25) there will be people who are still in the flesh living on the earth and Christ will rule over them. These people can still die (their first death). It should be noticed that those who died ""without"" Christ have not been resurrected because it is not yet their time. At the end of Christ's rule on earth all the remaining dead will be resurrected and death of the flesh will be destroyed. But not the "Second Death." Flesh bodies will no longer exist. Only resurrected bodies that do not die will exist. In the statement "The last enemy that will be destroyed is death" THERE IS NO MENTION OF "THE SECOND DEATH." At this time there will be the "Great White Throne Judgment." All names that are NOT found written in the "Book of Life" will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, which is "THE SECOND DEATH." (see John 5:27-29 and Revelations 20:12-15 below). If death and the second death are the same death then why call it by another name?

John 5:27-29 . (NIV)
27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice
29 and come out-- those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

Verse 29 Those who have done evil will rise from the first death of the flesh and then die the 'Second Death.'

*** Although "ALL" will be resurrected not "all" will be saved. Some will die the "second death" mentioned in the scriptures. The second death is being in the lake of fire separated from God. But they will finally know that God exists and that they rejected Him. They will know it forever. As the scriptures say "all men will be drawn to Christ," some to be the children of God and some to be judged by Christ. It is written in John 3:18; "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Jesus is the rightful judge. For those that say the word condemned does not mean that the person will not go to heaven let me give another reference; John 3:36, "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." The message is very clear 'shall not see life.'

Rev 20:12-15
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
(NKJ)
 

GodsGrace

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Okay.

But that is not how it has worked in my life.

Just an illustration...
We had a church back in England and we were very bust "working FOR God."

We used to be called out at two am in the morning to go to help families who called us in distress, problems between husband and wife, with kids, you name it...we were there. "Work for Jesus". Doing what all good christians 'should' be doing. God should do.

One day a wise man said to us. Do you ever listen to the Lord before you run hither, thither and yon..."for Jesus" , or do you just do what you feel good servants of God 'should' do?
( ie wishing to take pie to everyone, wanting to heal everyone at the Pool of Bethesda, unlike Jesus, who only healed the ONE that Father told Him to heal)

He told us that so many pastors and worker FOR God , burn out, because they do not LISTEN , but just do what they "think" that God wants them to do.

We took note. Sometimes when the phone run in the wee hours we would listen to God's Spirit. And pray with people over the phone...and not go rushing out.

This wise old man also taught us the difference between people who work FOR God, (because they believe it's the right thing to do) And the people who work WITH God... via the hearing of the ear...and listening TOO God's direction.

....H
A thin red line.
I'm not willing to go there.
I just do the best I can....and sometimes not even that for one reason or another.
 

GodsGrace

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ByGrace and GodsGrace...salutations to you. Got some questions for you. As far as the Good that you do...does it matter if you are successful or what other people think of it?
I like when the work is successful.
I worry that maybe God wasn't in it when it's not.
But, in any case, I tried and somehow or other someone gained from it in a physical earthly way --- which is also necessary.

I don't really care what other people think...
(although I'd like for them to think well)
But if I feel I have to do it,,,I just do it.
 

Grailhunter

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I like when the work is successful.
I worry that maybe God wasn't in it when it's not.
But, in any case, I tried and somehow or other someone gained from it in a physical earthly way --- which is also necessary.

I don't really care what other people think...
(although I'd like for them to think well)
But if I feel I have to do it,,,I just do it.

As humans we are at our best when we show compassion...Mother Theresa. But we do not have all the control of how it turns outDo what is right...do all things in love....don't worry about anyone else. You cannot please the world.
 
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GodsGrace

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As humans we are at our best when we show compassion...Mother Theresa. But we do not have all the control of how it turns outDo what is right...do all things in love....don't worry about anyone else. You cannot please the world.
Amen to that.
 

stunnedbygrace

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ByGrace and GodsGrace...salutations to you. Got some questions for you. As far as the Good that you do...does it matter if you are successful or what other people think of it?

I have some thoughts on this, but I need to practice quietness when I am not addressed. I will wait to hear. :)
 

Helen

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A thin red line.
I'm not willing to go there.
I just do the best I can....and sometimes not even that for one reason or another.

Thats fair.

I guess it all hangs on whether we believe that when Jesus said- Matt 4
"It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.” That is what He was saying...

And He was quoting Deut 8.3
"...that He might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live."

Which ever translation you use...it is in the present tense.
Not what God said...but what God is saying today.
Direction, guidance, ....that is why Jesus sent the Holy Spirit.

Some believe God is a Father who speaks and has a relationship today, some believe He is a Father who 'has spoken', and doesn't converse with us today, except via reading the bible.

No sweat at all. :)
 
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stunnedbygrace

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How do you see this "partial truth"?

Well, that would have to be a really long conversation. Let me start by saying that Richard is the one I was responding to. I always forget to hit quote, sorry.

So by partial truth, what I mean is...

One man comes in and says: I believe Jesus died for my sins and I'm saved, are you saved? And the other man says, oh yeah, you betcha', I'm saved too!
And then, as our friend Bbyrd says, they just start singing "when we all get to heaven." The mindset is on how wonderful that future time will be.

Then another man comes in and points out verses that are scary. Not the pleasant sounding ones we are happy to grab. And right then is the point at which we could learn balance, but...that would only be if we were here to learn.
 
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Helen

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ByGrace and GodsGrace...salutations to you. Got some questions for you. As far as the Good that you do...does it matter if you are successful or what other people think of it?

Note:- if you want to get our attention to your post , its best to tag us. :)
If you just write " ByGrace" it is not 'alive', and wont show up in our alerts.

But if you write it as @GodsGrace she will now get an Alert when she check back on here. just a heads up.

Good question.

I can only answer via my own experience.
The Lord called my hubby and I to do Bar and Pub work.
Every Friday night my dad would babysit our kids and we would go around the Pubs, Clubs and Bars in our area and towns outside our area.

( what made this easy... David was a 'professional' drinker... :) It almost ruined our marriage...so he knew every bar in a 150 mile radius. )

God gave us the passion and desire for this ministry. Our home church prayed for us while we were 'out there' on Fridays. We talked to hundreds.
We also got into many dangerous situations...so were thankful for prayer covering.

We did it for five years.
Two years in we were getting a bit down about it because we didn't SEE a whole lot of fruit for our labours.
We were talking to two of our prayer covering and they were retired Missionaries from Africa.
They encouraged us and said ..."Fruit or not , is not your business, you just do what God has told you to do, = sow seed.
God will take care of the 'watering' and the 'harvest'...which you probably wont even see. "

That encouraged us. And the next three years we did what we were called to do.
So "successful " cannot be measured here, ... but for each of us Obedience is the issue at hand...the outcome is in Fathers hands.

That's my two cents. :)
 

stunnedbygrace

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Two years in we were getting a bit down about it because we didn't SEE a whole lot of fruit for our labours.
We were talking to two of our prayer covering and they were retired Missionaries from Africa.
They encouraged us and said ..."Fruit or not , is not your business, you just do what God has told you to do, = sow seed.
God will take care of the 'watering' and the 'harvest'...which you probably wont even see. "

:)
 

stunnedbygrace

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Having computer issues. The part I quoted from ByGrace, I think that is excellent!