So, were these wrong also?...and why?

[brakelite]

Every reformer, from the 12th to the 18th century, from Wycliffe to Luther, from Calvin to Cranmer, and dozens in between, pointed their collective fingers at Rome and proclaimed the Roman papacy as the Antichrist of prophetic scripture. Were they right? If one was to give any credence to modern Christianity's view, the reformation was a major mistake, and the reformers all religious radicals deceived and influenced by the times in which they lived. If however they were right, and the Roman Catholic Church is indeed the Antichrist as they claimed, then why do so few proclaim it today? I quote here John Calvin....

24. It is not with a bishop as with a king; the latter, though
he does not execute the proper duty of a king, nevertheless retains
the title and the honour; but in deciding on a bishop respect is had
to the command of Christ, to which effect ought always to be given
in the Church. Let the Romanists then untie this knot. I deny that
their pontiff is the prince of bishops, seeing he is no bishop. This
allegation of mine they must prove to be false if they would succeed
in theirs. What then do I maintain? That he has nothing proper to a
bishop, but is in all things the opposite of a bishop. But with what
shall I here begin? With doctrine or with morals? What shall I say,
or what shall I pass in silence, or where shall I end? This I
maintain: while in the present day the world is so inundated with
perverse and impious doctrines, so full of all kinds of
superstition, so blinded by error and sunk in idolatry, there is not
one of them which has not emanated from the Papacy or at least been
confirmed by it. Nor is there any other reason why the pontiffs are
so enraged against the reviving doctrine of the Gospel, why they
stretch every nerve to oppress it, and urge all kings and princes to
cruelty, than just that they see their whole dominion tottering and
falling to pieces the moment the Gospel of Christ prevails. Leo was
cruel and Clement sanguinary, Paul is truculent. But in assailing
the truth, it is not so much natural temper that impels them as the
conviction that they have no other method of maintaining their
power. Therefore, seeing they cannot be safe unless they put Christ
to flight, they labour in this cause as if they were fighting for
their altars and hearths, for their own lives and those of their
adherents. What then? Shall we recognise the Apostolic See where we
see nothing but horrible apostasy? Shall he be the vicar of Christ
who, by his furious efforts in persecuting the Gospel, plainly
declares himself to be Antichrist? Shall he be the successor of
Peter who goes about with fire and sword demolishing everything that
Peter built? Shall he be the Head of the Church who, after
dissevering the Church from Christ, her only true Head, tears and
lacerates her members? Rome, indeed, was once the mother of all the
churches, but since she began to be the seat of Antichrist she
ceased to be what she was.
25. To some we seem slanderous and petulant, when we call the
Roman Pontiff Antichrist. But those who think so perceive not that
they are bringing a charge of intemperance against Paul, alter whom
we speak, nay, in whose very words we speak. But lest any one object
that Paul's words have a different meaning, and are wrested by us
against the Roman Pontiff, I will briefly show that they can only be
understood of the Papacy. Paul says that Antichrist would sit in the
temple of God, (2 Thess. 2: 4.) In another passage, the Spirit,
portraying him in the person of Antiochus, says that his reign would
be with great swelling words of vanity, (Dan. 7: 25.) Hence we infer
that his tyranny is more over souls than bodies, a tyranny set up in
opposition to the spiritual kingdom of Christ. Then his nature is
such, that he abolishes not the name either of Christ or the Church,
but rather uses the name of Christ as a pretext, and lurks under the
name of Church as under a mask. But though all the heresies and
schisms which have existed from the beginning belong to the kingdom
of Antichrist, yet when Paul foretells that defection will come, he
by the description intimates that that seat of abomination will be
erected, when a kind of universal defection comes upon the Church,
though many members of the Church scattered up and down should
continue in the true unity of the faith. But when he adds, that in
his own time, the mystery of iniquity, which was afterwards to be
openly manifested, had begun to work in secret, we thereby
understand that this calamity was neither to be introduced by one
man, nor to terminate in one man, (see Calv. in 2 Thess. 2: 3; Dan.
7: 9.) Moreover, when the mark by which he distinguishes Antichrist
is, that he would rob God of his honour and take it to himself, he
gives the leading feature which we ought to follow in searching out
Antichrist; especially when pride of this description proceeds to
the open devastation of the Church. Seeing then it is certain that
the Roman Pontiff has impudently transferred to himself the most
peculiar properties of God and Christ, there cannot be a doubt that
he is the leader and standard-bearer of an impious and abominable
kingdom.
(Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion 4, part 8)

Calvin was but one example of a unanimous agreement on the identity of the Antichrist. From Wycliffe to a number of early Christian leaders in the 'new world' such as Roger Williams,and dozens in between, all pointed to the papacy as the fulfilment of the prophetic word regarding antichrist. It is incumbent I believe for nay-sayers to prove otherwise, and from sources that do not emanate from the papacy herself. Calvin, Luther, Melancthon, Wesley, Knox, Foxe, Spurgeon, the writer of the preface to the KJV, the writers of the Westminster Confession, the Baptist Confession, and even Ian Paisley used two things to confirm what they saw...the scriptures, and history which correlated with the prophetic word...some of that history being played out before their eyes, some past....and in our day, we have an even greater perspective of history, the persecutions of those reformers and their followers,and the papal involvement in both world wars and in other wars such as Northern Ireland, Vietnam, and the Baltic states, as well as the current disgraceful revelations on child abuse, homosexuality, pedophilia, among priests of the roman faith only gives greater confirmation of the true nature of the RCC.

 

[Born_Again]

I honestly feel the rise of the Anti-Christ will be a little more obvious and a lot less speculation involved. Those of us who are vigilant will be more than aware of his rise to power. I don't see any credible evidence that the papacy will be involved. Most of the people you listed had an axe to grind with the Catholic church so it would stand to reason they would demonize it. If I didn't like an organization and wanted to steer others away from it I would speak ill towards and about them to keep others away. Take the JW's for instance. We generally try to steer others away as they speak false doctrine. Do I feel they too are the anti-Christ? No, that is just ludacris. "So, were these wrong also?" IMHO, Yes.

I am aware of a couple of Catholics on this forum and would defer further responses to them.

I further challenge, look not for the Anti-Christ but look towards the Kingdom of God and seek Him. Would He rather us spend time focusing on the Anti-Christ or focusing on Him? Let that one brew in your noggin for a while.......

Jeremiah 29:13-14
You will look for Me intently, and you will find Me. Yes, I will be found by you," says the Eternal, "and I will restore your fortunes and gather you from all the nations where you've been scattered - all the places where I have driven you. I will bring you back to the land that is your rightful home.

BA

 

[Keeth]

I honestly feel the rise of the Anti-Christ will be a little more obvious and a lot less speculation involved. Those of us who are vigilant will be more than aware of his rise to power. I don't see any credible evidence that the papacy will be involved. Most of the people you listed had an axe to grind with the Catholic church so it would stand to reason they would demonize it. If I didn't like an organization and wanted to steer others away from it I would speak ill towards and about them to keep others away. Take the JW's for instance. We generally try to steer others away as they speak false doctrine. Do I feel they too are the anti-Christ? No, that is just ludacris. "So, were these wrong also?" IMHO, Yes.

I am aware of a couple of Catholics on this forum and would defer further responses to them.

I further challenge, look not for the Anti-Christ but look towards the Kingdom of God and seek Him. Would He rather us spend time focusing on the Anti-Christ or focusing on Him? Let that one brew in your noggin for a while.......

Jeremiah 29:13-14
You will look for Me intently, and you will find Me. Yes, I will be found by you," says the Eternal, "and I will restore your fortunes and gather you from all the nations where you've been scattered - all the places where I have driven you. I will bring you back to the land that is your rightful home.

BA

All of the Reformers and even the vast majority of all Protestants, were first Catholics. They had no choice, it was against the law for them to be or teach anything else. If they did the state came after them to exile, imprison, torture, or murder them. They were forced to be Catholic and worship according to her teachings, yet you will not admit of the spirit of anti-christ. It is the bible itself that tells us of anti-christ and the need to warn others of her destructive deceptions, which billions are entangled in unto thier possible destruction. Go to, and leave them in their danger with no warning. The axe the Reformers, again all first Catholics, had to grind with Rome was her usurped authority above and beyond scripture. Which scriptures she outlwed in the venecular maintaining an ignorance of the same. Yet you still deny the spirit of anti-christ in the same. There testimony was and is true. Ignoring the elephant anti-christ in the living room, is supporting the same.

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[SIZE=12pt]Unless otherwise specified, all of the following quotes are taken from the four volume series THE PROPHETIC FAITH OF OUR FATHERS by Le Roy Edwin Froom. [/SIZE]

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[SIZE=12pt]HILARY OF POITIERS [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](300-368)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt] “ He [Hilary] begins by speaking the blessings of peace, which the Christians of that day could neither enjoy nor promote, beset as they were by the forerunners of Antichrist…….. They bear themselves not as bishops of Christ but as priests of Antichrist. This is not random abuse, but sober recognition of the fact, stated by St. John, that there are many Antichrists. For these men assume the cloak of piety, and pretend to preach the Gospel, with the one object of inducing others to deny Christ. It was the misery and folly of the day that men endeavoured to promote the cause of God by human means and the favor of the world. Hilary asks bishops, who believe in their office, wether the Apostles had secular support when by their preaching they converted the greater part of mankind……[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] “ The church seeks for secular support, and in so doing insults Christ by the implication that His support is insufficient. She in her turn holds out the threat of exile and prison. It was her endurance of these that drew men to her; now she imposes her faith by violence. She craves for favors at the hand of her communicants; once it was her consecration that she braved the threatening of persecutors. Bishops in exile spread the faith; now it is she that exiles bishops. She boasts that the world loves her; the worlds hatred was the evidence that she was Christ’s……. The time of Antichrist, disguised as an angel of light, has come. The true Christ is hidden from almost every mind and heart. Antichrist is now obscuring the truth that he may assert falsehood hereafter.” (E. W. Watson, Introduction to Hilary of Poitiers, in NPNF, 2d series, vol. 9, pp. lii, liii.) Vol. 1, p. 409.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=12pt]ARNULF[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] bishop of Orleans during the pontificate of John XV (985-996)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt] “What shall we say, revered fathers? To what blemish shall we attribute the fact that the first of the churches of God, once so lifted up and crowned with glory and honour, should be brought down so low and tarnished with shame and infamy? If we severely expect gravity of manners, purity of life, joined to sacred and profane learning, in every man who is ordained to the Episcopate; what ought not to be exacted in the case of him who aspires to be the teacher of all bishops. How, then, is it that those have been put in possession of that most high See, who were not worthy to fill any place whatsoever in the priesthood? What, in your eyes, reverend fathers, is that Pontiff, seated on a throne, and clad in purple and gold? If he hath not charity, and be puffed up with his learning only, he is Antichrist sitting in the temple of God, and demeaning himself as a god; he is like unto a statue in that temple, like a dumb idol, and to ask of him a reply, is to appeal to a figure of stone.” ( This English translation is from Villemain, op. cit., vol. 1 pp.175,176.) Vol. 1 chap. 22 p. 541&542[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt] “ Let us imitate the great church of Africa, which, in reply to the pretensions of the Roman Pontiff, deemed it inconceivable that the Lord should have invested any one person with his own plenary prerogative of judicature, and yet have denied it to the great congregations of his priests assembled in council in different parts of the world.” ( Quoted in Schaff, History, vol. 4, p. 291.) Vol. 1 chap. 22 p. 542[/SIZE]


[SIZE=12pt]EBERHARD II[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt], archbishop of Salzburg (1200-1246)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt] “ Under the title of Pontifex Maximus, we discern, unless we are blind, a most savage wolf, with the garment of a shepherd; the Roman priests [flamines] have arms against all Christians; made great by daring, by deceiving, by bringing wars after wars, they slaughter the sheep, they cut them off, they drive away peace and harmony from the earth, they stir up internal wars, domestic insurrections from below, day by day they weaken more and more the energies of all, so that they revile the heads of all, they devour all, they reduce all to slavery.” (Translated from Ioannes Aventinus, Annales Boiorum Libri Septem, p. 683.) Vol. 1 chap. 32 p. 799[/SIZE]


[SIZE=12pt] “ Both true and false concepts of the continuance of Rome powerfully influenced not only churchmen but statesmen, but the position taken by Eberhard in 1240-that the breakup of Rome gave rise to a group of smaller kingdoms, among whom afterward came up the relgio- political power of the historical Papacy as thye Little Horn-became the standard interpretation of fourteenth-century Wyclif in Britain, then of sixteenth-century Luther and most of his associates, and next of Cranmer, Knox, and the bulk of British Reformers. Practically all the post-Reformation writers on the Continent and in Britain and America declared the same. Even the Jewish expositer Don Isaac Abravanel of Spain, in 1496, made a like explanation.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] This reformation view was the sort of belief which helped to nerve men to withstand the powerful forces under the command of the Papacy, and to go to the stake rather than yield to her spiritual despotism; for Protestant martyrs dared not obey her injunctions or follow her apostasies, and thus incur the displeasure of Heaven. Therefore they no longer feared her anathemas.” (THE PROPHETIC FAITH OF OUR FATHERS, by Froom, vol. 1, chap. 32, p. 806)[/SIZE]



[SIZE=12pt]FRANCESCO PETRARCH, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Poet (1304-1374) Concerning the church of Rome.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt] “ [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Vengeaunce must fall on thee, thow filthie whore[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Of Babilon, thow breaker of Christ’s fold,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]That from acorns, and from the water colde,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Art riche become with making many poore.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Thow treason’s neste that in thie harte dost holde[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Of cankard malice, and of mischief more[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Than pen can wryte, or may with tongue be tolde,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Slave to delights that chastity hath solde;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]For wyne and ease which settith all thie store[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Uppon whoredome and none other lore,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]In thye pallais of strompetts yonge and olde[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Theare walks Plentie, and Belzebub thye Lorde;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Guydes thee and them, and doth thye raigne uphold:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]It is but late, as writing will recorde,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]That poore thow weart without lande or goolde;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Yet how hathe golde and pryde, by one accorde,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]In wickedness so spreadd thie lyf abrode,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]That it dothe stinke before the face of God.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]( Francesco Petrarch, Sonnet CV, translated by Wyatt (?), in The Sonnets, Triumphs, and Other Poems of Petrarch, pp. 135, 136.)[/SIZE]


[SIZE=12pt] “ Thou Babylon, seated on the wild banks of the Rhone, shall I call thee famous or infamous, O harlot, who hast committed harlotry with the kings of the earth? Truly thou art the same that the holy Evangelist saw in spirit, the same, I say, and not another, sitting upon many waters. Either literally, being surrounded by three rivers, or, in the profusion of this world’s goods, among which thou sittest wanton and secure, unmindful of eternal riches; or, in the sense laid down by him that beheld thee, that the waters on which you the harlot sit are peoples and nations and languages. Recognize thine own features. A women clothed in purple and scarlet, decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand, full of abomination in the impurity of her fornication-Dost thou not know thyself, O Babylon? Unless perhaps what is written upon her forehead is wrong, Babylon the great, you indeed are Babylon the little.” ( Translated from Petrarch, Epistolarum Sine Titulo, Liber, letter headed Babylonem Gallicam Describit, in Opera, vol. 2, p. 807. )[/SIZE]



[SIZE=12pt]WALTER BRUTE [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]fourteenth-century British or Welsh layman and Lollard scholar.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt] “ Item, The said Walter hath oftentimes said, and commonly avouched, that the Pope is Antichrist, and a seducer of the people, and utterly against the Law and life of Christ,” (“Proceedings in the trial of Walter Brut for Heresy, Etc.,” original Latin in Registrum Johannis Trefnant, Episcopi Herefordensis, p. 279; translated in Foxe, Acts, vol. 1, p. 543.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt] “ If the high Bishop of Rome calling himself the Servant of the Servants of God, and the Chief Vicar of Christ in this World, do make and maintain many laws contrary to the Gospel of Jesus Christ; then is he of those that have come in Christ’s name, saying, I am Christ, and have seduced many a one, by the Testimony of our Savior in Math. Chap. 24. And the Idol of desolation sitting in the Temple of God and taking away from him the continual sacrifice for a time, times, and half a time, which Idol must be revealed to the Christian people by the testimony of Daniel. Whereof Christ speaketh in the Gospel; When ye shall see the abomination of desolation that was told of by Daniel the Prophet, standing in the holy place; let him that readeth understand.” (Registrum, p.287; Foxe, Acts, vol. 1, p. 545.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt] “ And sitting in the Temple of God, doth advance himself above all things that is called God, or whatsoever is worshipped, by the testimony of Paul to the Thess. 2 Epistle, Chap. 2. And in the defection or falling away shall the man of sin be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the breath of his mouth….He is also besides, The Beast ascending up out of the earth, having two horns like unto a Lamb, but he speaketh like a Dragon, and as the cruel Beast ascending up out of the Sea, whose Power shall continue 42 months. He worketh the things that he hath given to the Image of the Beast. And he compelled Small and Great, Rich and Poor, Free-men and Bond-slaves, to worship the beast, and to take his mark in their Forehead or their Hands, Apoc. Chap. 13. And thus by the testimony of all these places is the chief Antichrist upon the Earth, and must be slain with the sword of God’s Word, and cast with the Dragon, the cruel Beast and the false prophet that hath seduced the Earth, into the lake of fire and brimstone to be tormented world without end.” (Registrum, p. 288; Foxe, Acts, vol. 1, pp. 545, 546.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt] “ If the city of Rome do allow his Traditions, and do disallow Christ’s holy Commandments, and Christ’s Doctrine, that it may confirm his Traditions; then is she Babylon the Great, or the Daughter of Babylon, and the Great Whore sitting upon many waters, with whom the Kings of the Earth have committed Fornication, and the Inhabitants of the earth are become drunken with the Wine of her Harlotry lying open to Bawdry. With whose spiritual Whoredom, Enchantments, Witchcrafts, and Simon Magus Merchandises, the whole round world is infected and seduced; saying in her heart, I sit as a Queen, and Widow I am not, neither shall I see Sorrow and mourning. Yet is she ignorant that within a little while shall come the day of her destruction and ruine by the Testimony of the Apoc. Chap. 17. Because that from the time of the continual Sacrifice was taken away, and that abomination of Desolation placed, there be passed 1290 days, by the Testimony of Daniel [chap. Xii.], and the Chronicles added to agree to the same. And the holy City also hath been trodden under foot of the Heathen, for forty two months, and the Woman was nourished up in the Wilderness (unto which she fled for fear of the face of the Serpent) during 1260 days, or else for a time, times, and half a time, which is all one. All these things be manifest by the Testimony of the Apocalyps, and the Chronicles thereto agreeing.” (Registrum, p. 288; Foxe, Acts, vol. 1, p. 546.)[/SIZE]


[SIZE=12pt]POPES ARE ANTICHRIST BECAUSE THEY ARE PRIEST-KINGS.- [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] “ Seeing then that the Bishops of Rome do say that they are the High Priests; they say also therein that they are Kings, because they say that they have the Scriptural Sword pertaining to their Priesthood, and the corporal Sword which agreeth for a Kings State. So is it plain, that really and in very deed, they say, That they are Christs, albeit that expressly they be not called Christs. Now that they come in the name of Christ it is manifest, because they say that they are his principal Vicars in this World, ordained of Christ specially for the Government of the Christian Church. Therefore, seeing they say, that really and in very deed they are Christs, and the chief friends of Christ: If they make and justifie many Laws contrary to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, then it is plain that they themselves in earth are the principal Antichrists, because there is no worse plague and pestilence, than a familiar enemy. And if in secret they be against Christ, and yet in open appearance they say that they are his friends, they are so much more the meet to seduce and deceive the Christian people.” (Registrum, pp. 300, 301; Foxe, Acts, vol. 1, p. 550.)[/SIZE]


[SIZE=12pt]SIR JOHN OLDCASTLE 1360-1417[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt] “[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]But as touching the Pope and his spirituality, I owe them neither suit nor service, forsomuch as I know him by the scriptures to be the great Antichrist, the Son of Perdition, the open Adversary of God, and the Abomination standing in the holy place.” [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](Foxe, Acts, vol. 1, p. 636.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]“ My belief is (as I said afore) that all the scriptures of the sacred Bible are true. All this is grounded upon them I believe throughly. For I know it is God’s pleasure that I should do so. But in your lordly Laws and idle determinations have I no belief. For ye be no part of Christ’s holy Church, as your open deeds do shew: But ye are very Antichrists, obstinately set against His holy Law and Will…. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] “ And let all men consider well this, That Christ was meek, and merciful; the Pope is proud, and a tyrant; Christ was poor and forgave, the Pope is rich and a malitious Man-slayer, as his daily acts do prove him. Rome is the very nest of Antichrist, and out of that nest come all of the Disciples of him. Of whom, Prelates, Priests, and Monks, are the body, these pil’d Friers are the tail, which covereth his most filthy part.” (Foxe, Acts, vol. 1, pp.640, 641.)[/SIZE]


[SIZE=12pt]JOHN HUSS, OR HUS ( 1369-1415) “[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]I beseech you in Christ Jesus, with all your fellow members of the University, to be prepared for a battle; for the reconnoiters of Antichrist have already begun, and the fight will soon follow. The Goose also must needs flap his wings against the wings of Behemoth, and against his tail, which always conceals the abomination of the beast Antichrist……. The Lord shall destroy the head and the tail- that is, the Pope and his prophets, masters, doctors, priests, who under the false pretext of sanctity conceal the abomination of the beast. Pray, what greater abomination can their be than a harlot who should parade herself and offer herself publicly? Yes, there is still greater abomination of the beast sitting in a place of honour and offering himself for worship to all comers, as though he were God: ready to sell whatever a man may wish to buy in matters spiritual. Yea, he sells what he does not possess. Woe be to me, then, if I shall not preach, weep, and write against such an abomination!” (The Letters of John Hus, edited by Herbert B. Workman and R. Martin Pope, Letter XXVI, pp. 118, 119.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt] “ Surely now the wickedness, iniquity, and baseness of Antichrist has been revealed in the Pope and his associates in the Council: now the faithful servants of God can understand the meaning of the Saviour’s words, When ye shall see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet,….he that readeth, let him understand. Verily ‘a great abomination’ is pride, avarice, and simony: ‘in a place apart’- that is,dignity which lacks modesty, love, and other virtues; and this is whatwe clearly mark in those who win office and dignity. Would that I were allowed to point out their wickedness, in order that the faithful servants of God might beware of them! Gladly would I do so; but I am trusting that God will raise up others after me, braver men than there are to-day, who shall better reveal the wickedness of Antichrist and lay down their lives for the truth of the Lord Jesus Christ, who will grant eternal joy both to you and to me. Amen. I write this letter in prison, on the day of St. John Baptist, as I lie bound in chains, remembering that St. John also was beheaded in prison for the sake of God’s truth.” (Ibid., p. 258.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]GIROLAMO SAVONAROLA (1452-1498) “[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]The Roman church is full of simony and vileness…. I visualized a black cross over Babylon-Rome with the inscription: Wrath of the Lord. And it rained upon her swords and knives, lances and weapons of all kinds, as well as hailstones and brimstones in a terrible thunderstorm in deepest gloom. And I saw another cross of gold which reached from the sky over Jerusalem to the earth with the inscription: Mercy of God. And here was full sunshine. And on the strength of vision I declare again, that the Church must reform herself, and that very soon because God is angry.” (Savonarola, Auswahl, pp. 120, 121.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt] “ Fly from Rome, for Babylon signifies confusion, and Rome hath confused all the Scriptures, confused all vices together, confused everything. Fly, then, from Rome, and come to repentance.” (Villari, op. cit., p.413, citing Lenten Sermon (1496), for Wednesday after fifth Sunday.)[/SIZE]


[SIZE=12pt] “ ‘Come here thou ribald Church. The Lord saith: I gave thee beautiful vestments, but thou hast made idols of them. Thou hast dedicated the sacred vessels to vainglory, the sacraments to simony; thou hast become a shameless harlot in thy lusts; thou art lower than a beast, thou art a monster of Solomon, and soliciteth the world; he that hath gold is made welcome and may do as he will….. O prostitute Church…… thou hast multiplied thy fornications in Italy, in France, in Spain, and all other parts. Behold, I will put forth My hand, saith the Lord. I will smite thee, thou infamous wretch.” (Villari, op. cit., pp. 517, 518, citing Lenten Sermon XXII (1497), afterward suppressed by the Congregation of the Index.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]MARTIN LUTHER (1483-1546) “[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]I will send you these compositions of mine, that you may judge whether I am right in my divination when I assert, that the true Antichrist mentioned by St. Paul reigns in the court of Rome and is, as I think I can prove, a greater pest than the Turks.” (Dr. Martin Luthers Sammtliche Schriften edited by Johann Georg Walch, vol. 15, col. 2430; translated in Waddington, History of the Reformation, vol. 1, p. 201. Hereafter Luther’s Schriften, without other specification, will mean this Walch edition.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt] “I am sifting the pontifical decrials with a view to my disputation [at Leipsig]; and, to whisper to you the truth, I am not determined whether the Pope be Antichrist himself or only his apostle, so cruelly is Christ (which is the truth) corrupted and crucified by him in his decrials. I am in perfect torture when I consider that the people of Christ are thus mocked, under the pretence of the laws and name of Christ.” (Luther, Schriften, vol. 21a, col. 156; translated in Waddington, History of the Reformation, vol. 1, p. 201.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt] “I am practically concerned, and can hardly doubt any more, that the Pope is really the Antichrist, whom the world expects according to a general belief, because everything so exactly corresponds to the way of his life, action, words, and commandments.” (Translated from Luther, Schriften, vol. 21a, col. 234. In all translation a faithful, literal rendering, rather than a free, literary translation, is followed.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt] “ We here are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist, against whose deceit and vileness all is permitted for the salvation of souls. Personally I declare that I owe the Pope no other obedience than that to Antichrist.” (Luther, Schriften, vol. 15, col. 1693.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt] “ I cry aloud on behalf of liberty and conscience, and I proclaim with confidence that no kind of law can with any justice be imposed on Christians, whether by men or angels, except so far as they themselves will; for we are free from all. If such laws are imposed on us, we ought so to endure them as still to preserve the consciousness of our liberty. We ought to know and steadfastly to protest that a wrong is being done to that liberty, though we may bear and even glory in that wrong; taking care neither to justify the tyrant nor to murmur against the tyranny. ‘Who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good? (1 Pet. 3:13.) All things work together for good to the elect of God. Since, however, there are but few who understand the glory of baptism and the happiness of Christian liberty, or who can understand them for the tyranny of the Pope- I for my part will set free my own mind and deliver my conscience, by declaring aloud to the Pope and all papists, that, unless they shall throw aside all their laws and traditions, and restore liberty to the churches of Christ, and cause that liberty to be taught, they are guilty of the death of all the souls which are perishing in this wretched bondage, and that the papacy is in truth nothing else than the kingdom of Babylon and of very Antichrist. For who is the man of sin and the son of perdition, but he who by his teaching and his ordinances increases the sin and perdition of souls in the Church; while he yet sits in the Church as if he were God? All these conditions have now for many ages been fulfilled by the papal tyranny. It has extinguished faith, darkened the sacraments, crushed the gospel; while it has enjoined and multiplied without end its own laws, which are not only wicked and sacrilegious, but also most unlearned and barbarous.” (Luther, First Principles, pp. 196, 197 (Schriften, vol. 19. Cols. 70, 71).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt] “ Neither is that which Matthew hath foretold, in ch. 24, touching that Horrible Abomination (to wit) Antichrist, a less certain Signs to me then [than] the former, namely that under his Kingdome, there should be and prevail, extream blindness, the most pernicious Errors, and the highest wickednesses. All which things do most wretchedly flourish in the kingdom of the Pope, and that in the greatest impudency and tyranny that can be.” (The signs of Christ’s coming and of the Last Day, the substance of a sermon of Martin Luther, p. 6.)[/SIZE]


[SIZE=12pt] “ Oh, Christ, my Lord, look down upon us and bring upon us thy day of judgment, and destroy the brood of Satan in Rome. There sits the Man, of whom the Apostle Paul wrote (2 Thess. 2:3,4) that he will oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God,- that Man of Sin, that Son of perdition. What else is papal power but sin and corruption? It leads souls to destruction under thine own name, O Lord! …. I hope the day of judgment is soon to dawn. Things can and will not become worse than they are at this time. The papal see is practicing iniquity to its heights. He suppresses the Law of God and exalts his commandments above the commandments of God.” (Dr. Martin Luthers sammtliche Werke (Erlangen edition), vol. 21, p.339.) [/SIZE]


[SIZE=12pt]PHILIPP MELANCHTHON (1497-1560) “ [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]18. Since it is certain that the pontiffs and the monks have forbidden marriage, it is most manifest, and true without any doubt, that the Roman Pontiff, with his whole order and kingdom, is very Antichrist.” (Translated from Melancthon, Disputationes, No. 56, “De Matrimonio,” in Opera (Corpus Reformation), vol. 12, col. 535.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt] “19. Likewise in Thess. II, Paul clearly says that the man of sin will rule in the church exalting himself above the worship of God, etc.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] “20. But it is certain that the popes do rule in the church, and under the title of the church in defending idols.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] “21. Wherefore I affirm that no heresy hath arisen, nor indeed shall be, with which these descriptions of Paul can more truly and certainly accord and agree than with this pontifical kingdom….[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] “25. The prophet Daniel also attributes these two things to Antichrist; namely, that he shall place an idol in the temple, and worship [it] with gold and silver; and that he shall not honor women.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] “26 That both of them belong to the Roman Pontiff, who does not clearly see? The idols are clearly the impious masses, the worship of saints, and the statues which are exhibited in gold and silver that they may be worshiped.” (Ibid., cols. 535, 536.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]NICOLAUS VON AMSDORF (1483-1565) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]He [the Antichrist] will be revealed and come to naught before the last day, so that every man shall comprehend and recognize that the pope is the real, true Antichrist and not the vicar of Christ…. Therefore those who consider the pope and his bishops as Christian shepherds and bishops are deeply in error, but even more are those who believe that the Turk is the Antichrist. Because the Turk rules outside the church and does not sit in the holy place, nor does he seek to bear the name of Christ but is an open antagonist of Christ and His church. This does not need to be revealed, but it is clear and evident because he persecutes Christians openly and not as the pope does, secretly under the form of godliness.” (Nicolaus von Amsdorf, Funff furnemliche und gewisse Zeichen, sig. A4v.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt] ‘ This beast we know is the Roman Empire, which carries and supports the red Babylonian whore, which is the Papacy. The mark of the beast is the canons, the decrees and ceremonies of the Pope, and all ecclesiastical traditions concerning food, drink, and dress, singing, reading, and other childish things which have nothing to do with, nor belong to, the kingdom of God, which is true Christianity.” (Ibid., sig. D1r.-D2r.)[/SIZE]


[SIZE=12pt]MATTHIAS FLAGIUS (Vlacich) (1520-1575) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]The sixth and last reason for our separation from the pope and his followers be this: By many writings of our church, by the Divinely Inspired Word, by prophecies concerning the future and by the special characteristics of the papacy, it has been profusely and thoroughly proved that the pope with his prelates and clergy is the real true great Antichrist, that his kingdom is the real Babylon, a never ceasing fountain and a mother of all abominable idolatry. (Flacius, Etliche Hochwichtige Ursachen und Grunde, warumb das sich alle Christen von dem Antichrist…..absondern sollen.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]ANDREAS MUSCULUS (1514-1581) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]………And today we see and hear how the precious word has taken its course straight towards midnight and how it shall reach further and further till it comes to the very last hamlet of this world…..[On Matt. 24.9-they shall deliver you up to be afflicted and shall kill you] Whereas this was first fulfilled under the persecution of emperors….. Now since 800 years the pope of Rome from the beginning of his Antichristian kingdom has started to slay, to kill, and to destroy. Many a learned man, many pious Christians who have comprehended this abomination, protested against it, and refused to worship the Bride of Babylon, were put to death by him and exterminated.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](Translated from Andreas Musculus, Vom tungsten Tage.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]HULDREICH (ULRICH) ZWINGLI (1484-1531) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]…….Not because they do any injustice to the Papacy, for I know that in it works the might and power of the Devil, that is, of the Antichrist. (Huldreich Zwingli, Hauptschriften [Principal Works], vol. 7, p. 135.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]If we would live Christlike, everybody would fall away from Popedom, because they would recognize that nothing else than deceitful pomp stands behind it. [In this spirit] everything undertaken toward its fall will succeed. And I request that we break the might of the Papacy not by the power of hate, but by the power of love to God and to our neighbor. (Ibid., p. 137.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]You are protecting all this disorder, this most wicked profession, this antichristian Papacy, although you see the bright shining light and perceive that all nations rejoice that the wickedness of the harlot, who deceived everybody, has been revealed. (Ibid., p. 199.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]The Papacy has to be abolished or it conceals itself until it suppresses again the gospel. But by no other means can it be more thoroughly routed than by the word of God (2 Thess. 2), because as soon as the world receives this [the word of God] in the right way, it will turn away from the pope without compulsion. (Ibid., p. 205.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]HEINRICH BULLINGER (1504-1575) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]The scarlet woman of Revelation 17 is “the Romish church” and Rome the seat of the Beast. (Bullinger, A Hundred Sermons upon the Apocalips, preface; see also his Decades, decade 4, sermon 7, pp. 273 ff.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]The Pope is Antichrist because he usurps the keys of Christ and His kingly and priestly authority. (Ibid., sermon 6, p. 44.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]WILLIAM TYNDALE (1484-1536) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]And [they] have set up that great idol, the whore of Babylon, antichrist of Rome, whom they call pope; and have conspired against all commonwealths, and have made them a several kingdom, wherein it is lawful, unpunished, to work all abomination. (Tyndale, The Obedience of a Christian Man, in Works, vol. 1, p. 191.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]The apostles were clear-eyed, and espied antichrist at once, and put him to flight, and weeded out his doctrine quickly. But when charity waxed cold, and the preachers began to seek themselves, and to admit glory and honour of riches, then antichrist disguised himself after the fashion of a true apostle, and preached Christ wilily, bringing in now this tradition, and now that, to darken the doctrine of Christ; and set up innumerable ceremonies, and sacraments, and imagery, giving them significations at the first; but at the last, the significations laid apart, preached the work as an holy deed, to justify and put away sin, and to save the soul, that men should put their trust in works, and in whatsoever was unto his glory and profit; and under the name of Christ ministered Christ out of all together, and became head of the congregation himself.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]The bishop of Rome made a law of his own, to rule his church by, and put Christ’s out of the way. All the bishops swear unto the bishop of Rome, and all curates unto the bishops; but all forswear Christ and his doctrine.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]But seeing John took a sign of the last day, that he saw antichrist begin, how nigh ought we to think that it is, which, after eight hundred years reigning in prosperity, see it decay again, and his falsehood to be disclosed, and him to be slain with the spirit of the mouth of Christ. (Tyndale, The Exposition of the First Epistle of St. John, in Works, vol. 2, pp. 179, 180.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Now though the bishops of Rome and his sects give Christ these names, yet in that they rob him of the effect, and take the significations of his names unto themselves, and make of him but an hypocrite, as they themselves be, they be the right antichrists, and deny both the Father and Son. (Ibid., p. 183.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]NICHOLAS RIDLEY (1500-1555) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Yea, what fellowship hath Christ with Antichrist? Therefore is it not lawful to bear the yoke with papists. ‘ Come forth from among them, and separate yourselves from them, saith the Lord’. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](“Conferences…Between Nicholas Ridley and Hugh Latimer,” in Ridley, Works, p. 124.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]I acknowledge in no point that usurped supremacy of Rome, and therefore contemn and utterly despise all authority coming from him. (Ibid., p. 258.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]The head, under Satan, of all mischief is Antichrist and his brood; and the same is he which is the Babylonical beast, The beast is he whereupon the whore sitteth. The whore is that city, saith John in plain words, which hath empire over the kings of the earth. This whore hath a golden cup of abominations in her hand, whereof she maketh to drink the kings of the earth, and of the wine of this harlot all nations hath drunk; yea, and kings of the earth have lain by this whore; and merchants of the earth, by virtue of her pleasant merchandise, have been made rich.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Now what city is there in the whole world, that when John wrote, ruled over the kings of the earth; or what city can be read of in any time, that of the city itself challenged the empire over the kings of the earth, but only the city of Rome, and that since the usurpation of that See hath grown to her full strength? And is it not read, that old and ancient writers understood Peter’s former Epistle to be written at Rome, and it to be called of him in the same Epistle, in plain terms, Babylon! BY the abominations thereof, I understand all the whole trade of the Romish religion, under the name and title of Christ, which is contrary to the only rule of all true religion, that is God’s word. (Ibid., p. 258)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]The see is the seat of Satan; and the bishop of the same, that maintained the abominations thereof, is antichrist himself indeed. And for the same causes this see at this day is the same which St. John calleth is his Revelation Babylon, or the whore of Babylon, and spiritually Sodoma and Egyptus, the mother of fornications and of the abominations upon the earth. (“Letters of Bishop Ridley,” letter 32, in Works, p. 415.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]This whore of Babylon and the beast whereupon she doth sit maintained at this day with all violence of fire and sword, with spoil and banishment (according to Daniel’s prophecy), and finally with all falsehood, deceit, hypocrisy, and all kind of ungodliness - are as clean contrary to God’s word as darkness is unto light, or light to darkness, white to black, or black to white, or as Belial unto Christ, or Christ unto antichrist himself. (Ibid., pp. 415, 416.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]The whore of Babylon may well for a time dally with you, and make you so drunk with the wine of her filthy stews and whoredom (as with her dispensations and promises of pardon a poena et culpa), that for drunkenness and blindness ye may think yourself safe. But be ye assured,… the living Lord shall try the matter by the fire, and judge it according to his word….For he that is partner with them in their whoredom and abominations, must also be partner with them of their plagues, and on the latter day shall be thrown with them into the lake burning with brimstone and unquenchable fire. Thus fare ye well, my lords all. I pray God give you understanding of his blessed will and pleasure, and make you to believe and embrace the truth. Amen. (Ibid., p. 418.) [/SIZE]


[SIZE=12pt]JOHN PHILPOT (1516-1555) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]St John in the Apocalypse telleth us plainly, that none of those who are written in the book of life do receive the mark of the beast, which is, of the papistical synagogue, either in their foreheads or else in their hands, that is, apparently or obediently….Finally, in the 18th of the Apocalypse, God biddeth us plainly to depart from this Babylonical synagogue, and not to be partakers of her trespass. St Paul to the Thessalonians commandeth us, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, to ‘withdraw ourselves from every brother that walketh inordinately, and not according to the institution which he hath received of him.’[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Ponder therefore well, good brethren and sisters, these scriptures, which be written for your erudition and reformation; whereof one iota is not written in vain; which be utterly against all counterfeit collusion to be used of us with the papists in their fantastical religion. (Philpot, Examinations and Writings, letter1, p. 222.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]JOHN BRADFORD (1510-1555) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Ah, wretches then that we be, if we will defile either part with the rose-coloured whore of Babylon’s filthy mass-abomination! It had been better for us never to have been washed, than so to wallow ourselves in the filthy puddle of popery: it had been better never to have known the truth, than thus to betray it. Surely, surely, let such men fear, that their ‘latter end be not worse than the beginning.’ (John Bradford in Writings [vol. 1] {Sermons, Meditations, Examinations}, vol. 1, p. 390.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Wherefore I now am condemned and shall be burned as an heretic. For, because I will not grant the antichrist of Rome to be Christ’s vicar-general and supreme head of his church here and every where upon earth, by God’s ordinance. (Ibid., pp. 441,442.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]This bearer hath told me, that your desire is to have something sent to you concerning the usurped authority of the supremacy of the bishop of Rome, which is undoubtedly that great Antichrist, of whom the apostles do so much admonish us;………(Ibid., p. 142.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]JOHN HOOPER (1495-1555) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Because God hath given this light unto my countrymen, which be all persuaded, (or else God send them to be persuaded!) that the bishop of Rome nor none other is Christ’s vicar upon the earth; it is no need to use any long or copious oration: it is so plain that it needeth no probation; the very properties of antichrist, I mean of Christ’s great and prinipal enemy, is so openly known to all men, that are not blinded with the smoke of Rome, that they know him to be the beast that John describeth in the Apocalypse. (Hooper, A Declaration of Christ and His Office, chap. 3, in Works, vol. 1[Early Writings], p. 24)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]As the pope, under the title and pretence of God’s ministry, hath gotten himself not only a bishopric, but also the whole monarchy, in manner, of all Europe; a richer kingdom than any prince of the world; which never ceased from his beginning to move christian princes to most cruel and bloody war, under the cloak and mantle of God’s name. What means and craft hath he found to maintain this whorish and antichrist[ian] seat of abomination; idols, peregrinations, masses, dispensations, absolutions, defensions of all things abominable; tyrannies against virtue, establishments of his own laws, abrogations of God’s laws, emptying of heaven, and filling of hell, blessing of things exterior, oil, bell, bread, water, with other that be not cursed, and cursing of the souls that Christ redeemed with his precious blood; with a thousand more such abominations, under the name and pretence of God and his holy church, the which neither the patriarchs, neither the prophets, Christ, neither his apostles, never knew of, as both the testaments doth bear record. (Hooper, A Declaration of the Ten Commandments, chap. 6, in Works, vol.1, p. 325)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Of that wicked and pestilent see and chair of Rome, which is indeed the very whore of Babylon that St John describeth in the Revelation of Jesus Christ, sitting upon a seven headed beast, which St John himself interpreted to be seven hills, and the children in the grammar-school do know that Rome is called civitas septem montium, the city of seven hills. (Hooper, An Apology Against the Untrue and Slanderous Reports, in Works, vol. 2, p. 554.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]THOMAS CRANMER (1489-1556) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]And as for the pope, I refuse him as Christ’s enemy and antichrist, with all his false doctrines. (Cranmer, Works, vol.2, appendix, p. 566.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]I know in what office God hath placed me, and to what purpose; that is to say, to set forth his word truly unto his people, to the uttermost of my power, without respect of person, or regard of thing in the world, but of him alone. I know what account I shall make to him hereof at the last day, when every man shall answer for his vocation, and receive for the same good or ill, according as he hath done. I know how antichrist hath obscured the glory of God, and the true knowledge of his word, overcastting the same with mists and clouds of error and ignorance through false glosses and interpretations. It pitieth me to see the simple and hungry flock of Christ led into corrupt pastures, to be carried blindfold they know not wither, and to be fed with poison in the stead of wholesome meats. And moved by the duty, office, and place, whereunto it hath pleased God to call me, I give warning in his name unto all that profess Christ, that they flee far from Babylon, if they will save their souls, and to beware of that great harlot, that is to say, the pestiferous see of Rome, that she make you not drunk with her pleasant wine. (Cranmer, Works, vol. 1, pp. 6,7.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]After all these sprung up the pope, that tripled crown monster, and great antichrist, which took upon him authority, not only over the clergy, but also climbed above kings and emperors, deposing them at his pleasure, and settled himself in the temple of God, that is, in the consciences of men, extolling himself above God, dispensing with good laws, and giving men leave to break them, and to regard more his decrees than the everlasting commandments of God. (Ibid., vol. 2, p. 15.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]And in the seventeenth chapter he lively setteth forth the pope in his own colours, under the person of the whore of Babylon being drunken with the blood of saints; pointing, as it were with his finger, who this whore of Babylon is, and the place where she shall reign, saying: ‘The woman which thou sawest is that great city which reigneth over the kings of the earth.’ Now what other city reigned at that time, or at any time since, over the christian kings of the earth, but only Rome? Whereof it followed Rome to be the seat of antichrist, and the pope to be very antichrist himself. I could prove the same by many other scriptures, old writers, and strong reasons. (Ibid., pp. 62, 63.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Not content herewithal, more insolent than Lucifer, [the Pope] hath occupied not only the highest place in this world above kings and princes, but hath further presumed to sit in the seat of Almighty God. Which only he reserved to himself, which is the conscience of man; and to keep the possession thereof, he hath promised forgiveness of sins totiens quotiens.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]“He hath brought in gods of his own framing, and invented a new religion, full of gain and lucre, quite contrary to the doctrine of the holy scripture, only for the maintaining of his kingdom, displacing Christ from his glory, and holding his people in a miserable servitude of blindness, to the loss of a great number of souls, which God at the latter day shall exact at his hand: boasting many times in his canons and decrees, that he can dispense contra Petrum, contra Paulum, contra vetus et novum Testamentum; and that he, plenitudine potestatis, tantum potest quantum Deus; that is, ‘Against Paul, against the old and new Testament; and of the fulness of power may do as much as God.’ O Lord, who ever heard such blasphemy? If there be any man that can advance himself above him, let him be judged antichrist.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]This enemy of God and of our redemption is so evidently painted out in the scriptures, by such manifest signs and tokens, which all so clearly appear in him, that, except a man will shut up his eyes and heart against the light, he cannot but know him: and therefore, for my part, I will never give my consent to the receiving of him into this church of England, and you, my lord, and the rest that sit here in commission, consider well and examine your own consciences: you have sworn against him: you are learned, and can judge of the truth. I pray God you be not willfully blind. As for me, I have herein discharged mine own conscience toward the world, and I will write also my mind to her grace (Queen Nary), touching this matter.” (Ibid., pp. 222, 223. The forthright letter written to Queen Mary in that same month, September, 1555, appears on pp. 447-554.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]John Bale (1495-1563) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]The great antichrist of Europe is the king of faces, the prince of hypocrisy, the man of sin, the father of errors, and the master of lies, the Romish pope. He is the head of the said pale horse, whose body are his patriarchs, cardinals, archbishops, bishops, fat prebends, doctors, priests, abbots, priors, monks, canons, friars, nuns, pardoners, and proctors, with all the sects and shorn swarm of perdition, and with all those that consent with them in the Romish faith, obeying their wicked laws, decrees, bulls, privileges, decrials, rules, traditions, titles, pomps, degrees, blessings, counsels, and constitutions, contrary to God’s truth. The wickedness of these hath so darkened the blind world, that scarce was left one sparkle of the verity of the christian faith. Nowhere can men dwell to greater loss of their souls’ health, than under their abominations. (Bale, The Image of Both Churches, in Select Works, pp. 325,326.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]By the monstrous, ugly, and most odious beast rising out of the sea, with seven heads and ten horns, is meant the universal or whole Antichrist, comprehending in him all the wickedness, fury, falsehood, forwardness, deciet, lies, crafts, sleights, subtilties, hypocrisy, tyranny, mischiefs, pride, and all other devilishness, of all his malicious members which have been since the beginning…….[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]No abomination nor mystery of iniquity, as Paul calleth it, was ever found in these kingdoms, but now reigneth manifold in the detestable papacy or monstrous kingdom of antichrist, as all the world may see. (Ibid., pp.420,423.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]With this stinking strumpet have the mighty potentates of the universal earth, the emperors, kings, princes, and other notable governors, committed most shameful whoredom in the spirit by many strange worshippings, agreeing among themselves to her wickedly decreed laws and customs. Too long should we stand here in this place, if we should describe them all severally in their colours at large as they be.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Through the crafty legerdemain of the priests on the one side, and the cruel constitution of princes on the other side, the dwellers of the earth or worldly-minded multitude are drunken with the wine of her fornication spiritual, or practiced worshippings besides the prescript rules of God’s word…..[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]And I saw (saith St John) in mystery a woman (for a whore at the first blush seemeth only a woman) sitting upon a rose-colored beast. This beast is the great antichrist that was spoken of afore, or the beastly body of the devil, comprehending in him popes, patriarchs, cardinals, legates, bishops, doctors, abbots, priors, priests, and pardoners, monks, canons, friars, nuns, and so forth; temporal governors also, as emporers, kings, princes, dukes, earls, lords, justices, deputies, judges, lawyers, mayors, bailiffs, constables, and so forth, learning their own duties-offices as to minister rightly, to serve their abominations. (Ibid., pp. 494-496.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Edwin Sandys (1519-1588) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]He that sitteth in the temple of God, and termeth himself Christ’s vicar, doth in like sort offer unto the people bread, water, wine, milk, pardon of sins, grace, mercy, and eternal life; but not freely: he is a merchant, he giveth nothing, and that is nothing which he selleth. For although he make large promises to the buyer, he selleth that which he hath not to deliver. ‘Eternal life is the gift of God.’ The pope therefore selleth but wind and smoke for fire, shadows for truths: he deceiveth the buyers with false slights, false measures, false weights. Beware of this merchant, lose not your labour, cast not away your money: it is not meat but poison which he offereth you. His physic cannot heal your diseases; his holy water cannot wash away the spots of a sullied and defiled soul, as he untruly would bear you in hand; his blasphemous masses do not appease, but provoke God’s wrath; they cannot benefit the quick, much less the dead, which either need no help, or are past all help; his rotten relics cannot comfort you; his blind, dumb, and worm-eaten idols can do you no good. It is cast away which is spent upon his shameless pardons; they will not prevail-God will not admit them: by his Latin service ye cannot be edified, or made wiser. Yet this trumpery they sell for money, and upon this trash they cause silly men to waste their substance, and to these to commit their souls. Thus you see a manifest difference between Christ and antichrist. (Edwin Sandys, The Sermons of Edwin Sandys, pp. 11,12.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Christ is obscured by that great enemy antichrist, ‘the man of sin,’ who hath set himself in Christ’s peculiar place, and will be ‘exalted above all that is called God.’ To make any other mediator between God and man, saving only Christ Jesus which is not only man, but also God; to seek elsewhere remission of sins, justification, redemption, sanctification, or salvation, that only in this Jesus, and in him crucified, doth darken and make dim both him and his merits. And of the treason the Romish antichristian church, which they term catholic, is found guilty. For the children of this harlot labour by all means to obscure the Son of God, to rob him of the glory of his deserts in our salvation. (Ibid., pp. 358,359.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]We do utterly abandon this usurped and proud authority: we have happily forsaken that synagogue of Satan.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]This is our apostasy. We have forsaken him that hath forsaken God, and whom God hath forsaken: we have left that man of sin, that rose-colored harlot with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, that triple-crowned beast, that double-sworded tyrant, that thief and murderer, who hath robbed so many souls of salvation, and sucked so much innocent blood of christian martyrs, that adversary unto Christ, that pretensed vicar, who hath displaced the person, not only taking upon him Christ’s room and office, but also boasting himself as if he were a god, and being content of his parasites so to be called. This wicked man of sin is at length revealed by the sincere preaching of the gospel. Daniel in his prophecies, Paul in his epistles, and John in his revelations, have most lively described and pointed hin forth even as it were with the finger. Yea, through his pride and ambition, his usurping authority and worldly rule, his tyrrany and persecuting of Christ in his members, he hath sufficiently revealed and detected himself, if none had done it for him. (Ibid., p. 389.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]William Fulke (1538-1589) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]The see being found, it is easy to find the person by S. Paul’s description; and this note especially, that excludeth the heathen tryants, ‘He shall sit in the temple of God:’ which when we see to be fulfilled in the Pope, although none of the eldest fathers could see it, because it was performed after their death, we nothing doubt to say and affirm still, that the Pope is that ‘Man of sin,’ and ‘Son of perdition,’ the adversary that lifteth up himself ‘above all that is called God;’ and shall be destroyed ‘by the spirit of the Lord’s mouth, and by the glory of His coming. (William Fulke, A Discovery of the Dangerous Rock of the Popish Church, in Works, vol.2 p. 373.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]And concerning the usurped power of the bishop of Rome, which he most wrongfully challengeth, as the successor of Christ and Peter, we may easily perceive how false, feigned, and forged it is, not only in that it hath no sufficient ground in holy Scripture, but also by the fruits and doctrine thereof. For our Saviour Christ and St. Peter teach, most earnestly and agreeably, obedience to kings, as to the chief and supreme rulers in this world next under God; but the bishop of Rome teaches, that they that are under him are free from all burdens and charges of the commonwealth and obedience towards their prince, most clearly against Christ’s doctrine and St. Peter’s. He ought therefore rather to be called Antichrist and the successor of the Scribes abd Pharisees, than Christ’s vicar or St. Peter’s successor. (“An Exhortation Concerning Good Order and Obedience To Rulers and Magistrates” [Third Part]. In Certain Sermons or Homilies Appointed To Be Read in Churches in the Time of Queen Elizabeth [1890 ed.], pp. 119, 120: see also Wylie, op. cit., vol. 3. P. 436.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Jean (John) Calvin (1509-1564) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]I deny that see to be Apostolical, wherein nought is seen but a shocking apostasy-I deny him to be the vicar of Christ, who, in furiously persecuting the gospel, demonstrates by his conduct that he is Antichrist-I deny him to be the successor of Peter, who is doing his utmost to demolish every edifice that Peter built-and I deny him to be the head of the Church, who by his tyranny lacerates and dismembers the Church, after disserving her from Christ, her true and only head. (Calvin, Tracts, vol. 1, pp. 219, 220; see also Guiness, Romanism, p. 236.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Daniel and Paul had predicted that Antichrist would sit in the temple of God. The head of that cursed and abominable kingdom, in the Western Church, we affirm to be the Pope. When his seat is placed in the temple of God, it suggests, that his kingdom will be such, that he will not abolish the name of Christ or the Church. Hence it appears , that we by no means deny that churches may exist, even under his tyranny; but he has profaned them by sacrilegious impiety, afflicted them by cruel despotism, corrupted and almost terminated their existence by false and pernicious doctrines; like poisonous potions, in such churches, Christ lies half buried, the gospel is suppressed, piety exterminated, and the worship of God almost abolished; in a word, they are altogether in such a state of confusion, that they exhibit a picture of Babylon, rather than the holy city of God. (Calvin, Institutes, vol. 2, pp. 314,315. The English translation of 1561, fol. 15v, gives the same thought, only in the quaint but often more ivivd phrasing of the time.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Some persons think us too severe and censorious when we call the Roman pontiff Antichrist. But those who are of this opinion do not consider that they bring the same charge of presumption upon Paul himself, after whom we speak and whose language we adopt. And lest anyone should object, that we improperly pervert to the Roman pontiff those words of Paul, which belong to a different subject, I shall briefly show that they are not capable of any other interpretation than that which applies them to the Papacy. Paul says that Antichrist ‘sitteth in the temple of God.’ In another place, also, the Holy Spirit, describing his image in the person of Antiochus, declares that his kingdom will consist in ‘speaking great words,’ or blasphemies, ‘against the Most High.’ Hence we conclude that it is rather a tyrrany over the souls of men, than over their bodies, which is erected in opposition to the spiritual kingdom of Christ. And in the next place, that this tyrrany is one which does not abolish the name of Christ or of his Church, but rather abuses the authority of Christ, and conceals itself under the character of the Church, as under a mask. Now, though all the heresies and schisms which have existed from the beginning belong to the kingdom os Antichrist, yet when Paul predicts an approaching apostasy, he signifies by this description that that seat of abomination shall then be erected when a universal defection shall have seized the church, notwithstanding many members dispersed in different places, persevere in the unity of the faith. But when he adds, that even in his days ‘the mystery of iniquity’ did ‘already work’ in secret, what it was afterwards to effect in a more public manner, he gives us to understand that this calamity was neither to be introduced by one man, nor to terminate with one man. Now, when he designates Antichrist by this character,-that he would rob God of His honor in order to assume it to himself,-this is the principal indication which we ought to follow in our inquiries after Antichrist, especially where such pride proceeds to a public desolation of the church. As it si evident therefore that the Roman pontiff has impudently transferred to himself some of the peculiar and exclusive prerogatives of God and Christ, it cannot be doubted that he is the captain and leader of this impious and abominable kingdom. (Ibid., vol. 2, pp. 410,411 [in 1561 ed., fol. 45v].)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]JOHN KNOX (1505-1572) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]First, then, not only are all the impious traditions and ceremonies of the papists taken away, but also that tyranny which the pope himself has for so many ages exercised over the church, is altogether abolished; and it is provided that all persons shall in the future acknowledge him to be the very antichrist, and son of perdition, of whom Paul speaks.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]The mass is abolished, as being an accursed abomination and a diabolical profanation of the Lord’s supper; and it is forbidden to all persons in the whole kingdom of Scotland either to celebrate or hear it. (The Zurich Letters [1st series], 1558-1579, p. 199.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]As for your Romane Church, as it is now corrupted, and the Authority thereof, wherein stands the hope of your Victory, I no more doubt but that it is the Synagogue of Sathan; and the head thereof, called the Pope, to be that man of Sin of whom the Apostle speaketh, then that I doubt that Jesus Christ suffered by the procurement of the visible Church of Jerusalem. Yea, I offer myself by word or writing, to prove the Romane Church this day farther to degenerate from the purity which was in the dayes of the Apostles, then was the Church of the Jewes from the ordinance given by Moses, when they consented to the innocent death of Jesus Christ. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]These words were spoken in the open audience of the Parish Church of Saint Andrews, after the said Dean John had spoken what it pleased him, and had refused to dispute. (Knox, The Historie of the Reformatioun of Religioun Within the Realm of Scotland, book 1, pp. 75, 76.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]As far as I am concerned I am absolutely convinced, that whatever is done in the Roman church is contradictory to Christ’s blessed rule, and is nothng else than a lethal poison; and whosoever drinks of it drinks death and damnation to himself…….[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]The malice of your bishops is only to evident, their impure lives contaminate the very air; the innocent blood they shed cries to God for vengeance; the idolatry and abominations they with impunity commit perverts and defiles the whole country. And none amongst you has the courage to do away with these villainies. Will not God consider you guilty? Do not decieve yourselves, dear bretheren. Do not sleep in your sins, for vengeance is near to all the disobedient. Flee from Babel, if you do not want to partake in her destruction. (Translated from Brandes, op. cit., p. 494.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]JOHN NAPIER (NEPER) (1550-1617) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]In the former proposition was described the holie Spouse of Christ, here is to bee described the filthie whoore of Sathan, there that Ladie, who is adorned with the Sunne, Starres, and heavenlie virtues: here that Adultresse, who glories in golde, silver, precious stones, and worllie pleasures: there shee, who is persecuted by the Dragon, here she unto whome the Dragon doeth give authoritie: There she, who is chaced into the wilderness, and hath no lodge to hide her in; here she who impireth above all people, and is the Metropolitane citie of the world. And finallie, seeing in al things this Whoore, or whoorish Babylon, is contrarious to Christes holie Spouse, lette us, and all Christians trie her out, as our detestable and deadlie enemie, and see what Babylon she is. We say then, that this Babylon, is not that reall Babylon of Chaldee, but Rome, for these reasons. First, for that this Babylon is called mysterium Babylon, that is to say, mysticall or figurative Babylon: Therefore, it is not Babylon it self in Chaldee. (John Napier, A Plaine Discovery of the Whole Revelation of Saint Iohn., p. 34. This first reason was supported by a series of supplemental arguments.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]For firste (saieth the text) the Woman that sate upon this Beast, is the great Citie, that sitteth over the Kings of the earth: So the chiefe seate and citie of the Latine or Romane Empire, is that great citie Rome, that had Empire overe all the kingdomes of the earth. Secondly, saith Daniel, there shal foure chief kingdomes arise upon the earth, under the figure of foure beastes: Whereof (by plaine interpretation hee saith) the fourth beast that had these ten horns, is the fourth kingdome of the earth: And so it is, that the firste greate kingdome or Monarchie being the Babylonians: The seconde, of the Medes and Persians: The thirde, of the Graecians. The fourth and laste, is certainlie the Monarchie of the Latines or Romanes:and therefore, that fourth beaste which both there in Daniel, & here in Iohns Revelation, hath ten horns, must necessarily be the Romane or Latine Empire. (Ibid., pp. 36,37; and introductory table.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Cotton Mather (1663-1728) (Congregational Theologian) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]"The oracles of God foretold the rising of an Antichrist in the Christian Church: and in the Pope of Rome, all the characteristics of that Antichrist are so marvelously answered that if any who read the Scriptures do not see it, there is a marvelous blindness upon them."
Taken from The Fall of Babylon by Cotton Mather in Froom's book, The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Vol. 3, pg. 113. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]John Wesley (1703-1791) (Methodist) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Speaking of the Papacy he said, "He is in an emphatical sense, the Man of Sin, as he increases all manner of sin above measure. And he is, too, properly styled the Son of Perdition, as he has caused the death of numberless multitudes, both of his opposers and followers... He it is...that exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped...claiming the highest power, and highest honour...claiming the prerogatives which belong to God alone."
Taken from Antichrist and His Ten Kingdoms by John Wesley, pg. 110. [/SIZE]



[SIZE=12pt]SECOND SCOTCH CONFESSION OF FAITH [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]In special, we detest and refuse the usurped authoritie of that Romane Antichrist upon the scriptures of God, upon the Kirk, the civill Magistrate, and consciences of men. (Philip Schaff, Creeds, vol. 3, p. 481.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]The statement from the Westminster Confession of Faith of the Church of England, which was later used by the Presbyterians, is significant:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]There is no other head of the church but the Lord Jesus Christ, nor can the pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof, but is that antichrist, that man of sin and son of perdition that exalteth himself in the church against Christ and all that is called God. (The Westminster Confession of Faith, Section 6, chapter 25)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Irish Articles of Faith (adopted in 1615): "The Bishop of Rome...be that 'man of sin', foretold in the holy Scriptures."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Westminster Confession of Faith: "The Pope of Rome...is that man of sin and son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the church against Christ."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Savoy Declaration: "The Pope of Rome...is that Antichrist, that man of sin and son of perdition."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Baptist Confession 1688: "The Pope of Rome...is no other than Antichrist, that man of sin and son of perdition."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]The Waldensian treatise titled the Noble Lesson, dated 1100 A.D., stated: "Antichrist, the predicted murderer of the Saints, hath already appeared in his true character, seated monarchally in the seven-hilled city." In 1120 or 1160 A.D., A Treatise Concerning Antichrist identified the Pope of Rome as the Antichrist. George Faber identifies this as a production of Peter the Valdo (Faber, pp. 379-384). [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]In 1206, the Albigenses made the following confession: "That the Church of Rome was not the spouse of Christ, but the Church of confusion, drunk with the blood of the martyrs. That the polity of the Church of Rome was neither good nor holy, nor established by Jesus Christ" (Peter Allix, The Ecclesiastical History of the Ancient Churches of the Albigenses, 1821 edition, first published in 1692, p. 178). [/SIZE]

 

[ManOnFi59238829]

Every reformer, from the 12th to the 18th century, from Wycliffe to Luther, from Calvin to Cranmer, and dozens in between, pointed their collective fingers at Rome and proclaimed the Roman papacy as the Antichrist of prophetic scripture. Were they right?

They were not wrong to a degree. Some are gifted to be Apostles, some Prophets, some Evangelists, some Pastors, and so on. Where is the Prophetic Ministry in the Catholic Church? If I speak the words of God, and have a prophetic calling, but the Pope is God's viceroy on Earth, then we have issues. The Roman Church went wrong when various Popes started to assert themselves based on Geography and not God, and what God was doing. There were originally 5 Patriarchs, and the Pope was one of five, and not first among equals.

Personally, I do not care what denomination you are as long as you have God's Spirit, and your fruit shows it. If you can hear the Spirit of God, then what is it telling you right now?

If we are talking about the Anti-Christ, then there are some layers to it. We have The Body of Christ, that is, the Greater Church or Body of believers. They are all joined together by God's Spirit which is represented by the blood. God is like an AI, and when everyone has his Spirit, then everyone is working together towards building his Kingdom, and bringing Glory. In the Book of Judges Israel did not have a King. They just had the Spirit of God till they fell away. There is also an Anti-Christ body that is born in sin, and it links people together in a similar way. You can see it with the unholy alliance many Secular people have at Universities and in the Government with Muslims. You can see it with the arguments athiest make. The Anti-Christ is already here or has been.

There is Good in Catholism and Orthodoxy, and they have pieces of the puzzle that Protestant's don't have. Satanists, like the Satanists in Oklahoma City, would not go through all the trouble of having a Black Mass if Catholics did not. Heaven is a mirror, and there are parts of the puzzle in Catholic rituals and traditions.

 

[Born_Again]

Wow, Keeth, awesome cut and paste job! I hope you feel better. I will say this, it is hard to find creditability in someone who needs to see if spell check is working and might take a look at their "prediction" feature on whatever device they are using. Quoting a surpassed amount of people proves nothing. To me, you might as well quote a bunch of philosophers. Why? Well, all you are asking me to do is believe what they say. You have no basis to prove what they say is true other than who they are. At that rate, I might as well make Stephan Hawking an authority on the Bible. "But he doesn't believe in God..." Nope he sure doesn't! But the evidence he provides to there not being a "God" holds about the same amount of value as all the quoted material listed above. We look for scriptural proof!

And Keeth,

We have asked that members do their best to avoid large cut and paste jobs.

BA

 

[aspen]

There certain were some nasty Popes during Church history. I do not believe they were the Antichrist, but I do believe they were antipopes (including many popes not recognised by the Catholic church as antipopes) who were seduced
by the world or the beast power

 

[brakelite]

Okay, so @Born Again, I see you don't believe the testimony of the reformers. That's alright, so long as its for the right reasons. I agree that the final arbiter must be the scriptures. That is why I asked why? You gave as your reason for their being wrong initially as a personal grudge against the church. But as you can see from Keeth's post, (and I have at my disposal many more quotes from many more people over the same time period of over 1000 years) they weren't condemning the church on account of any personal vendetta, but as a result of comparing the character of the papacy with the character of the Antichrist, man of sin, little horn etc of the Bible. Even their incomplete understanding of prophecy was sufficient to draw them to the same conclusion. Also, as Keeth said, most if not all of them were Catholics. Many of them priests. their initial desire was not to start new churches, far from it. They wanted the church they loved, the only church they knew, to reform. The 'Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church' that they grew up in, the one that educated them, the one they had devoted most of their lives to, they realized was no longer holy, Catholic, nor apostolic. They wanted change. It was not the reformers that left the church to form another, but rather the church that left the truth, then when being brought to account, threw them out, persecuted them, and killed them. It was the followers who were left with little choice but to form their own congregations if they were to continue in any form of communal worship, and to carry out the commission of preaching the gospel. So I think you will have to look elsewhere for a reason why you believe they were wrong on their identifying of the RCC as the Antichrist.

Many of those reformers spent hours and hours every day in prayer. Their insights into truth that brought freedom for millions of Christians since from the errors of Rome came at the cost of their lives. Christians today think that 10 minutes when they are free is sufficient to understand truth. They read Daniel and Revelation and come up with all manner of interpretations, so that today within the church, unlike the reformation churches, we have dozens of interpretations of who the antichrist is and how he will appear. Not to prayerfully study prophecy, in particular Daniel and Revelation, would be a grave mistake. God has included such books in Holy Scripture for a purpose. He wants a people prepared, wise, and impervious to the most dangerous deceptions that will arise in the last days. In these two books in particular, (and in Matt 24 and others) God has provided much detailed information as to the character, the nature, and the practices of the enemy, and his arch representative, the 'antichrist'. From this detail we can garner enough information to accurately identify who it is. The reformers did it, and well known students and teachers of the Bible since their day agreed...it is only in the last 100 years that their teachings on this subject have been cast aside, unbelieved, and made ineffective in favour of clairvoyant prognostications on some imagined evil 'super-devil' of the future who they think they will recognise immediately and not be deceived. Already they are deceived!!!

However @Born Again, if you or anyone else can up with some good sound scriptural reasons why the reformers were wrong, then, and only then, can we confidently cast aside over 1000 years of agreed testimony and proclaim them all in error, and the reformation a mistake. Until then, the RCC stands as the only viable candidate.

 

[Keeth]

Wow, Keeth, awesome cut and paste job! I hope you feel better. I will say this, it is hard to find creditability in someone who needs to see if spell check is working and might take a look at their "prediction" feature on whatever device they are using. Quoting a surpassed amount of people proves nothing. To me, you might as well quote a bunch of philosophers. Why? Well, all you are asking me to do is believe what they say. You have no basis to prove what they say is true other than who they are. At that rate, I might as well make Stephan Hawking an authority on the Bible. "But he doesn't believe in God..." Nope he sure doesn't! But the evidence he provides to there not being a "God" holds about the same amount of value as all the quoted material listed above. We look for scriptural proof!

And Keeth,

We have asked that members do their best to avoid large cut and paste jobs.

BA

Surely you can understand why people who were being persecuted, imprisoned, tortured, and murdered for not submitting to the Roman church, would consider her anti-christ? If so, then why can't you see how those who have studied these matters out, would agree with their assesment. When people forget the lessons of history, they are doomed to repeat them. The information I shared does not even scratch the surface, over a thousand years of history and terrible abuse have been swept under the rug as it were, while the institution which perpetrated such horrors is steadily climbing the exact same mountain that lead to all of the same in the first place. When she arrives safely at the summit with the ever increasing aid of indifference and apathy, history will repeat itself. It already is and will only continue to do so. Some will not stand by and watch without giving a warning. My apologies if it offends, but no apologies for sharing the truth. Lest we forget, this world woud only tolerate three and one half years of our Lord and Saviors truthful testimony before it silenced him. Unfortunately, in this world of sin and woe especially, the truth hurts.

 

[DogLady19]

Every reformer, from the 12th to the 18th century, from Wycliffe to Luther, from Calvin to Cranmer, and dozens in between, pointed their collective fingers at Rome and proclaimed the Roman papacy as the Antichrist of prophetic scripture. Were they right? If one was to give any credence to modern Christianity's view, the reformation was a major mistake, and the reformers all religious radicals deceived and influenced by the times in which they lived. If however they were right, and the Roman Catholic Church is indeed the Antichrist as they claimed, then why do so few proclaim it today? I quote here John Calvin....

Rome, indeed, was once the mother of all the churches, but since she began to be the seat of Antichrist she ceased to be what she was.

I think it is prudent to note that Calvin and the others did not call the Pope THE antichrist... they simply said "antichrist"... a state of being in opposition to Christ. I think many modern scholars make the same mistake and think that antichrist is a distinct individual instead of a spiritual state. This is evident in Calvin's statement: "all the heresies and schisms which have existed from the beginning belong to the kingdom of Antichrist, yet when Paul foretells that defection will come, he by the description intimates that that seat of abomination will be erected, when a kind of universal defection comes upon the Church"

Some of the other quotes provided by another poster are taken out of context. The quote supposedly by Luther is actually a commentary by someone who published Luther's letters. Luther said the Pope was the devil's mother, but he used the term "antichrist" the same way Calvin did.

Wesley clearly calls the pope the Son of Perdition. But not just the sitting pope during Wesley's time, and he also said the Son of Perdition sits in churches other than the Roman Catholic Church. So, obviously, he is speaking of a state of being, not a specific person.

1 John 2:18 uses "antichrist" in the plural, so this makes it clear it is not a specific person. "Antichrist" simply means an opponent of the Messiah, anyone who denies that Jesus came in the flesh. And the Bible never refers to antichrist as THE antichrist.

Satanists, like the Satanists in Oklahoma City, would not go through all the trouble of having a Black Mass if Catholics did not. Heaven is a mirror, and there are parts of the puzzle in Catholic rituals and traditions.

The only thing that proves is that Satanists believe in Catholicism!

 

[brakelite]

I think it is prudent to note that Calvin and the others did not call the Pope THE antichrist... they simply said "antichrist"... a state of being in opposition to Christ. I think many modern scholars make the same mistake and think that antichrist is a distinct individual instead of a spiritual state. This is evident in Calvin's statement: "all the heresies and schisms which have existed from the beginning belong to the kingdom of Antichrist, yet when Paul foretells that defection will come, he by the description intimates that that seat of abomination will be erected, when a kind of universal defection comes upon the Church"

Some of the other quotes provided by another poster are taken out of context. The quote supposedly by Luther is actually a commentary by someone who published Luther's letters. Luther said the Pope was the devil's mother, but he used the term "antichrist" the same way Calvin did.

Wesley clearly calls the pope the Son of Perdition. But not just the sitting pope during Wesley's time, and he also said the Son of Perdition sits in churches other than the Roman Catholic Church. So, obviously, he is speaking of a state of being, not a specific person.

1 John 2:18 uses "antichrist" in the plural, so this makes it clear it is not a specific person. "Antichrist" simply means an opponent of the Messiah, anyone who denies that Jesus came in the flesh. And the Bible never refers to antichrist as THE antichrist.

Hi. I think for the most part I agree with you. As I said in my opening post you quoted, I believe, like I think Calvin et al also believed, that rather than one individual pope being the antichrist, it was the system of the papacy that is the antichrist. It is the system that places the pope at the head of the church in place of Christ. It is the system that has incorporated into her beliefs and doctrines numerous dogmas and traditions invented by men which lead people in empty worship. (Matt 15:9) It is the system that has established in the minds of millions a mind-set whereby the church and its sacramental services and all manner of auxiliary appendages are seen as the source of salvation as opposed to the person of Jesus Christ and what He accomplished on Calvary. That 'replacing Christ motif' is the spirit of Antichrist. And because the papacy, the system, answers to every single criteria demanded of scripture, (and no other entity does that, not even the future antichrist of the novels and movies), then to look elsewhere is to be honest imho, unbelief , not in me or others who teach these things, but unbelief in the word of God. Oh, and also a slap in the face of the reformers who died because they refused to recant the truth of what they taught and believed.

 

[DogLady19]

Hi. I think for the most part I agree with you. As I said in my opening post you quoted, I believe, like I think Calvin et al also believed, that rather than one individual pope being the antichrist, it was the system of the papacy that is the antichrist. It is the system that places the pope at the head of the church in place of Christ. It is the system that has incorporated into her beliefs and doctrines numerous dogmas and traditions invented by men which lead people in empty worship. (Matt 15:9) It is the system that has established in the minds of millions a mind-set whereby the church and its sacramental services and all manner of auxiliary appendages are seen as the source of salvation as opposed to the person of Jesus Christ and what He accomplished on Calvary. That 'replacing Christ motif' is the spirit of Antichrist. And because the papacy, the system, answers to every single criteria demanded of scripture, (and no other entity does that, not even the future antichrist of the novels and movies), then to look elsewhere is to be honest imho, unbelief , not in me or others who teach these things, but unbelief in the word of God. Oh, and also a slap in the face of the reformers who died because they refused to recant the truth of what they taught and believed.

Yes, and any church that holds their leader up as a Christ representative is antichrist. Those churches that have a "prophet" or "leader" who cannot be challenged in his theology are antichrist.

Many antichrists exist in this world. The RCC might be the biggest, but it has plenty of company.

If something takes a person's eyes off of Jesus as the source of salvation and the path to God, it is antichrist.

 

[aspen]

Any church that is seduced by the world is flirting with the antichrist, which is worldliness. No group or individual that is made up of human beings is immune to temptation, but with repentance comes reconciliation. Pointing fingers at different groups is meaningless - it is like walking into a nursery full of babies and pointing out the baby in the room.

All we can do is continue to repent and rely on Gods justification, sanctification and eventual redemption.

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

Calvin also had those who disagreed with him theologically put to death.

 

[Keeth]

Calvin also had those who disagreed with him theologically put to death.

Yes, it took Protestants a good while to figure out the biblical concept of separation of church and state. Some never did, and still have not.

 

[DogLady19]

Calvin also had those who disagreed with him theologically put to death.

Hmmm, thank you for the nice piece of trivia!

Yes, it took Protestants a good while to figure out the biblical concept of separation of church and state. Some never did, and still have not.

Aren't they called "Protestants" because they protested the concept of a church state??? Surely their whole objective was to separate the church from the state... at least that's how I learned the Renaissance...

But I totally agree that some Protestants do not have the concept in this day and age!

 

[Born_Again]

Hmmm, thank you for the nice piece of trivia!

Aren't they called "Protestants" because they protested the concept of a church state??? Surely their whole objective was to separate the church from the state... at least that's how I learned the Renaissance...

But I totally agree that some Protestants do not have the concept in this day and age!

Correct! It doesn't help our case if we are pushing an agenda vs showing the love of Christ and living how He lived. All too often, I think, the Church as a whole forgets what it means to follow Christ. We can share His love and His word. But shoving it in faces and pushing agendas doesn't help.

 

[Keeth]

Hmmm, thank you for the nice piece of trivia!
Aren't they called "Protestants" because they protested the concept of a church state??? Surely their whole objective was to separate the church from the state... at least that's how I learned the Renaissance...

But I totally agree that some Protestants do not have the concept in this day and age!

Yes and no. There is a difference of course between having an idea about something, and actually putting it into practice. A lot of the Reformers simply wanted to make reforms within the church, they never intended to leave it or become an enemy of it. They were forced out by a system that would not tolerate reform from within or without. After they were excommunicated and persecuted, they of course desired freedom to worship and believe as they pleased. Unfortunately, when they gained enough numbers and influence, many would not allow for the freedom they desired also when a minority. It was a little more complicated than that though. If Protestants allowed Catholics freedom to increase in numbers and influence, they always outlawed Protestantism and persecuted and killed them. So of course, Protestants under such threats, could not allow Catholics freedom to gain control again. Creating a vicious cycle of intolerance and persecution. The government of the United States included a mature Protestant stance upon separation of church and state, breaking the cycle. Many Reformers preached and taught this necessity before and leading up to the developement of a government truly separating the two. The following is just one example.

[SIZE=12pt]Excerpts from - [/SIZE]​

[SIZE=12pt]Martin Luther - Temporal Authority: To What Extent it Should Be Obeyed[/SIZE]​

(All emphasis mine)​

​

[SIZE=12pt]............................................................................................................................................. It has gone so far that they have granted the imperfect estate of the sword and of the temporal authority not only to the estate of the bishops, but even to the pope, that most perfect estate of all; in fact, they have ascribed it to no one on earth so completely as to him! So thoroughly has the devil taken control of the sophists and the universities that they themselves do not know how they speak or teach.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]I hope, however, that I may instruct the princes and the temporal authorities in such a way that they will remain Christians-and Christ will remain Lord-and yet Christ's commands will not for their sake have to become mere counsels.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]For God the Almighty has made our rulers mad; they actually think they can do-and order their subjects to do-whatever they please. And the subjects make the mistake of believing that they, in turn, are bound to obey their rulers in everything. It has gone so far that the rulers have begun ordering the people to get rid of certain bookshttp://www.augustana.edu/religion/lutherproject/TemporalAuthority/Certainbooks.htm[/SIZE], and to believe and conform to what the rulers prescribe. They are thereby presumptuously setting themselves in God's place, lording it over men's consciences and faith, and schooling the Holy Spirit according to their own crackbrained ideas.

[SIZE=12pt]Third. Here we must divide the children of Adam and all mankind into two classeshttp://www.augustana.edu/religion/lutherproject/TemporalAuthority/Twoclasses.htm[/SIZE], the first belonging to the kingdom of God, the second to the kingdom of the world. Those who belong to the kingdom of God are all true believers who are in Christ and under Christ, for Christ is King and Lords in the kingdom of God, as Psalm 2 [:6]http://www.augustana.edu/religion/lutherproject/TemporalAuthority/ScripturalLinks/Psalms 2.4-6.htm and all of Scripture says. For this reason he came into the world, that he might begin God's kingdom and establish it in the world. Therefore, he says before Pilate, "My kingdom is not of the world, but every one who is of the truth hears my voice." [John 18:36-37]http://www.augustana.edu/religion/lutherproject/TemporalAuthority/ScripturalLinks/John 18.33-38.htm. In the gospel he continually refers to the kingdom of God, and says, "Amend your ways, the kingdom of God and his righteousness" [Matt. 6:33]http://www.augustana.edu/religion/l...Authority/ScripturalLinks/Matthew 6.31-33.htm. He also calls the gospel a gospel of the kingdom of God; because it teaches, governs, and upholds God's kingdom.

[SIZE=12pt]Fourth. All who are not Christians belong to the kingdom of the world and are under the law. There are few true believers, and still fewer who live a Christian life, who do not resist evil and indeed themselves do no evil. For this reason God has provided for them a different government beyond the Christian estate and kingdom of God. He has subjected them to the swordhttp://www.augustana.edu/religion/lutherproject/TemporalAuthority/temporalsword.htm[/SIZE] so that, even though they would like to, they are unable to practice their wickedness, and if they do practice it they cannot do so without fear or with success and impunity.

[SIZE=12pt]If this were not so, men would devour one another, seeing that the whole world is evil and that among thousands there is scarcely a single true Christian. No one could support wife and child, feed himself, and serve God. The world would be reduced to chaos. For this reason God has ordained two governments: the spiritual, by which the Holy Spirit produces Christians and righteous people under Christ; and the temporal, which restrains the un-Christian and wicked so that-no thanks to them-they are obliged to keep still and to maintain an outward peace. Thus does St. Paul interpret the temporal sword in Romans 13 [:3]http://www.augustana.edu/religion/lutherproject/TemporalAuthority/ScripturalLinks/Romans 13.1-4.htm[/SIZE], when he says it is not a terror to good conduct but to bad. And Peter says it is for the punishment of the wicked [I Peter 2:14]http://www.augustana.edu/religion/l...Authority/ScripturalLinks/I Peter 2.13-17.htm.

[SIZE=12pt]To such a one we must say: Certainly it is true that Christians, so far as they themselves are concerned, are subject neither to law nor sword, have need of either. But take heed and first fill the world with real Christian before you attempt to rule it in a Christian or evangelical manner. This you will never accomplish; for the world and the masses are and always will be un-Christian, even if they are all baptized and Christian in names. Christians are few and far between (as they say is). Therefore, it is out of the question that there should be a common Christian government over the whole world, or indeed over a single country or any considerable body of the people, for the wicked always outnumber the good. Hence, a man who would venture to govern an entire country or the world with the gospel would be like a shepherd who should put together in one fold wolves, lions, eagles, and sheep, and let them mingle freely with one another, saying, "Help yourselves, and be good and peaceful toward one another. The fold is open, there is plenty of food. You need have no fear of dogs and clubs." The sheep would doubtless keep the peace and allow themselves to be fed and governed peacefully, but they would not live long, nor would one beast survive another.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]For this reason one must carefully distinguish between these two governments. Both must be permitted to remain; the one to produce righteousness, the other to bring about external peace and prevent evil deeds. Neither one is sufficient in the world without the other. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]No one can become righteous in the sight of God by means of the temporal government, without Christ's spiritual government. Christ's government does not extend over all men; rather, Christians are always a minority in the midst of non-Christians. Now where temporal government or law alone prevails, there sheer hypocrisy is inevitable, even though the commandments be God's own. For without the Holy Spirit in the heart no one becomes truly righteous, no matter how fine the works he does. On the other hand, where the spiritual government alone prevails over land and people, there wickedness is given free rein and the door is open for all manner of rascality, for the world as a whole cannot receive or comprehend it.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]This is also why Christ did not wield the sword, or give it a place in his kingdom. For he is a king over Christians and rulers by his Holy Spirit alone, without law. Although he sanctions the sword, he did not make use of it, for it serves no purpose in his kingdom, in which there are none but the upright. Hence, David of old was not permitted to build the temple [II Sam. 7:4-13]http://www.augustana.edu/religion/lutherproject/Scriptural Links/II Samuel 7.4-17.htm[/SIZE], because he had wielded the sword and had shed much blood. Not that he had done wrong thereby, but because he could not be a type of Christ, who without the sword was to have a kingdom of peace. It had to be built instead by Solomon, whose name in German means "Frederich" or "peaceful"; he had a peaceful kingdom, by which the truly peaceful kingdom of Christ, the real Frederichhttp://www.augustana.edu/religion/lutherproject/TemporalAuthority/frederickwise.htm and Solomon, could be represented. Again, "during the entire building of the temple no tool of iron was heard," as the text says [I Kings 6:7]http://www.augustana.edu/religion/lutherproject/Scriptural Links/I Kings 6.7.htm; all for this reason, that Christ, without constraint and force, without law and sword, was to have a people who would serve him willingly.

[SIZE=12pt]Thus you observe in the words of Christ quoted above from Matthew 5http://www.augustana.edu/religion/lutherproject/Scriptural Links/Matthew 5.38-42.htm[/SIZE] that he clearly teaches that Christians among themselves should have no temporal sword or law. [SIZE=12pt]He does not, however, forbid one to serve and be subject to those who do have the secular sword or law. Rather, since you do not need it and should not have it, you are to serve all the more those who have not to such heights as you and who therefore do still need it. Although you do not need to have your enemy punished, your afflicted neighbor does. You should help him that he may have peace and that his enemy might be curbed, but this is not possible unless the governing authority is honored and feared. Christ does not say, "You shall not serve the governing authority or be subject to it," but rather, "Do not resist evil" [Matt. 5:39]http://www.augustana.edu/religion/lutherproject/TemporalAuthority/Matthew 5.38-42.htm[/SIZE], as much to say, "Behave in such a way that you bear everything, so that you may not need the governing authority to help you and serve you or be beneficial or essential for you, but that you in turn may help and serve it, being beneficial and essential to it. I would have you be too exalted and far too noble to have any need of it; it should rather have need of you."

[SIZE=12pt]Christ pursued his own office and vocation, but he did not thereby reject any other. It was not incumbent upon him to bear the sword, for he was to exercise only that function by which his kingdom is governed and which properly serves his kingdom. Now, it is not essential to his kingdom that he be a married man, a cobbler, tailor, farmer, prince, hangman, or constable; neither is the temporal sword or law essential to it , but only God's Word and Spirit. It is by these that his people are ruled inwardly. This is the office which he also exercised then and still exercises now, always bestowing God's Word and Spirit. And in this office the apostles and all spiritual rulers had to follow him. For in order to do their job right they are so busily occupied with the spiritual sword, the Word of God, that they must perforce neglect the temporal sword and leave it to others who do not have to preach, although it is not contrary to their calling to use it, as I have said. For each one must attend to the duties of his own calling.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Therefore, although Christ did not bear or prescribe the sword, it is sufficient that he did not forbid or abolish it, but actually confirmed it; just as it is sufficient that he did not abolish the state of marriage but confirmed it, though without himself taking a wife or setting forth a teaching concerning it. He had to manifest himself wholly in connection with that estate and calling which alone expressly served his kingdom, lest from his example there should be deduced the justification or necessity of teaching or believing that the kingdom of God could not exist without matrimony and the sword and similar externals (since Christ's example is necessarily binding), when in fact it exists solely by God's Word and Spirit. This was and had to be Christ's peculiar function as the Supreme King in this kingdom. Since not all Christians have this same function (although they are entitled to it), it is fitting that they should have some other external office by which God may also be served.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Part Two[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=12pt]How Far Temporal Authority Extends[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=12pt]The temporal government has laws which extend no further than to life and property and external affairs on earth, for God cannot and will not permit anyone but himself to rule over the soul. Therefore, where the temporal authority presumes to prescribe laws for the soul, it encroaches upon God's government and only misleads souls and destroys them. We want to make this so clear that everyone will grasp it, and that our fine gentlemen, the princes and bishops, will see what fools they are when they seek to coerce the people with their laws and commandments into believing this or that. When a man-made law is imposed upon the soul to make it believe this or that as its human author may prescribe, there is certainly no word of God for it. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]If there is no word of God for it, then we cannot be sure whether God wishes to have it so, for we cannot be certain that something which he does not command is pleasing to him. Indeed, we are sure that it does not please him, for he desires that our faith be based simply and entirely on his divine word alone. He says in Matthew 18 [16:18], "On this rock I will build my church."; and in John 10 [:27,14,5], "My sheep hear my voice and know me; however, they will not hear the voice of a stranger, but flee from him." From this it follows that with such a wicked command the temporal power is driving souls to eternal death. For it compels them to believe as right and certainly pleasing to God that which is in fact uncertain, indeed, certain to be displeasing to him since there is no clear word of God for it. Whoever believes something to be right which is wrong or uncertain is denying that truth, which is God himself. He is believing in lies and errors, and counting as right that which is wrong.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Hence, it is the height of folly when they command that one shall believe the Church, the fathers, and the councils, though there be no word of God for it. It is not the church but the devil's apostles who command such things,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] for the church commands nothing unless it knows for certain that it is God's word. As St. Peter puts it, "Whoever speaks, let him speak as the word of God" [I Pet. 4:11]. It will be a long time, however, before they can ever prove that the decrees of the councils are God's word. Still more foolish is it when they assert that kings, princes, and the mass of mankind believe thus and so. My dear man, we are not baptized into kings, or princes, or even into the mass of mankind, but into Christ and God himself. Neither are we called kings, princes, or common folk, but Christians. No one shall or can command the soul unless he is able to show it the way to heaven; but this no man can do, only God alone. Therefore, in matters which concern the salvation of souls nothing but God's word shall be taught and accepted.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Again, consummate fools though they are, they must confess that they have no power over souls. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]For no human being can kill a soul or give it life, or conduct it to heaven or hell. If they will not take our word for it, Christ himself will attend to it strongly enough where he says in the tenth chapter of Matthew, "Do not fear those who kill the body, and after that have nothing that they can do; rather fear him who after he has killed the body, has power to condemn to hell." I think it is clear enough here that the soul is taken out of all human hands and is placed under the authority of God alone.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Now tell me: How much wit must there be in the head of a person who imposes commands in an area where he has no authority whatsoever? Would you not judge the person insane who commanded the moon to shine whenever he wanted to? How well would it go if Leipzigers were to impose laws on us Wittenbergers, or if, conversely, we in Wittenberg were to legislate for the people of Leipzig! They would certainly send the lawmakers a thank-offering of hellebore to purge their brains and cure their sniffles. Yet our emperor and clever princes are doing just that today. They are allowing pope, bishop, and sophists to lead them on-one blind man leading the other-to command their subjects to believe, without God's word, whatever they please. And still they would be known as Christian princes, God forbid![/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]A court should and must be quite certain and clear about everything if it is to render judgment. But the thoughts and inclinations of the soul can be known to no one but God. Therefore, it is futile and impossible to command or compel anyone by force to believe this or that. The matter must be approached in a different way. Force will not accomplish it. And I am surprised at the big fools, for they themselves all say: De occultis non Ecclesia, the church does not judge secret matters. If the spiritual rule of the church governs only public matters, how dare the mad temporal authority judge and control such a secret, spiritual, hidden matter as faith?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Furthermore, every man runs his own risk in believing as he does, and he must see to it himself that he believes rightly. As nobody else can go to heaven or hell for me, so nobody else can believe or disbelieve for me; as nobody else can open or close heaven or hell for me, so nobody else can drive me to belief or unbelief. How he believes or disbelieves is a matter for the conscience of each individual, and since this takes nothing away from the temporal authority the latter should be content to attend to its own affairs and let men believe this or that as they are able and willing, and constrain no one by force. For faith is a free act, to which no one can be forced. Indeed, it is a work of God in the spirit, not something which outward authority should compel or create. Hence arises the common saying, found also in Augustine, "No one can or ought to be forced to believe."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Moreover, the blind, wretched fellows fail to see how utterly hopeless and impossible a thing they are attempting. For no matter how harshly they lay down the law, or how violently they rage, they can do no more than force an outward compliance of the mouth and the hand; the heart they cannot compel, though they work themselves to a frazzle. For the proverb is true: :Thoughts are tax free." Why do they persist in trying to force people to believe from the heart when they see that it is impossible? In so doing they only compel weak consciences to lie, to disavow, and to utter what is not in their hearts. They thereby load themselves down with dreadful alien sins, for all the lies and false confessions which such weak consciences utter fall back upon him who compels them. Even if their subjects were in error, it would be much easier simply to let them err than to compel them to lie and to utter what is not in their hearts. In addition, it is not right to prevent evil by something even worse.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Would you like to know why God ordains that the temporal princes must offend so frightfully? I will tell you. God has given them to a base mind [Rom. 1:28] and will make an end of them just as he does of the spiritual nobility. For my ungracious lords, the pope and the bishops, are supposed to be bishops and preach God's word. This they leave undone, and have become temporal princes who govern with laws which concern only life and property. How completely they have turned things topsy-turvy! They are supposed to be ruling souls inwardly by God's word; so they rule castles, cities, lands, and people outwardly, torturing, souls with unspeakable outrages.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Similarly, the temporal lords are suppose to govern lands and people outwardly. This they leave undone. They can do no more than strip and fleece, heap tax upon tax and tribute upon tribute, letting loose here a bear and there a wolf. Besides this, there is no justice, integrity, or truth to be found among them. They behave worse than any thief or scoundrel, and their temporal rule has sunk quite as low as that of the spiritual tyrants. For this reason God so perverts their minds also, that they rush on into the absurdity of trying to exercise a spiritual rule over souls, just as their counterparts try to establish temporal rule. They blithely heap alien sins upon themselves and incur the hatred of God and man, one scoundrel with the other. Then they lay all the blame on the gospel, and instead of confessing their sin they blaspheme God and say that our preaching has brought about that which their perverse wickedness has deserved-and still unceasingly serves-just as the Romans did when they were destroyed. Here then you have God's decree concerning the high and mighty. They are not to believe it, however, lest this stern decree of God be hindered by their repentance.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]But, you say: Paul said in Romans 13 [:1] that every soul [seele] should be subject to the governing authority; and Peter says that we should be subject to every human ordinance [I Pet. 2:13]. Answer: Now you are on the right track, for these passages are in my favor. St. Paul is speaking of the governing authority. Now you have just heard that no one but God can have authority over souls. Hence, St. Paul cannot possibly be speaking of any obedience except where there can be corresponding authority. From this it follows that he is not speaking of faith, to the effect that temporal authority should have the right to command faith. He is speaking rather of external things, that they should be ordered and governed on earth. His words too make this perfectly clear, where he prescribes limits for both authority and obedience, saying, "Pay all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, honor to whom honor is due, respect to whom respect is due" [Rom. 13:7], Temporal obedience and authority, you see, apply only to taxes revenue, honor, and respect. Again, where he says, "The governing authority is not a terror to good conduct, but to bad" [Rom. 13:3], he again so limits the governing authority that it is not to have the mastery over faith or the word of God, but over evil works.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]If your prince or temporal ruler commands you to side with the pope, to believe thus and so, or to get rid of certain books, you should say, "It is not fitting that Lucifer should sit at the side of God. Gracious sir, I owe you obedience in body and property; command me within the limits of your authority on earth, and I will obey. But if you command me to believe or to get rid of certain books, I will not obey; for then you are a tyrant and overreach yourself, commanding where you have neither the right or the authority," etc. Should he seize your property on account of this and punish such disobedience, then blessed are you; thank God that you are worthy to suffer for the sake of the divine word. Let him rage, fool that he is; he will meet his judge. For I tell you, if you fail to withstand him, if you give in to him and let him take away your faith and your books, you have truly denied God.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Again, you say, "The temporal power is not forcing men to believe; it is simply seeing to it externally that no one deceives the people by false doctrine; how could heretics otherwise be restrained?" Answer: This the bishops should do; it is a function entrusted to them and not to the princes. Heresy can never be restrained by force. One will have to tackle the problem in some other way, for heresy must be opposed and dealt with otherwise than with the sword. Here God's word must do the fighting. If it does not succeed, certainly the temporal power will not succeed either, even if it were to drench the world in blood. Heresy is a spiritual matter which you cannot hack to pieces with iron, consume with fire, or drown in water. God's word alone avails here, as Paul says in II Corinthians 10 {:4-5], "our weapons are not carnal, but mighty in God to destroy every argument and proud obstacle that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and to take every thought captive in the service of Christ."[/SIZE]

 

[DogLady19]

Yes and no. There is a difference of course between having an idea about something, and actually putting it into practice. A lot of the Reformers simply wanted to make reforms within the church, they never intended to leave it or become an enemy of it. They were forced out by a system that would not tolerate reform from within or without.

Thanks for the response... Reformers and protesters always come in with the gifts they have to offer for the cause... some are thinkers, some are communicators, some are organizers, and some are out-right catalysts for upheaval. Of course they didn't want to leave the church... it was ingrained in them that doing so was rejection of Jesus Himself. But the truth set them free... Then came those who saw the opportunity for personal gratification and gain, and we have too many of them today because too few called them out on their acts of the flesh.

PS: A link would have sufficed over an entire copy/paste of a website! :blink:

 

[OzSpen]

Keeth,

You sure know how to bore people into not reading your posts. I urge you to engage with us and not drown us with your prodigious efforts of copy and paste. If you carry on with this approach, I'll avoid reading further than the name, 'Keeth'. What gets into your system to make you do this?

Oz

 

[Angelina]

Please stop cut and pasting stuff. It does nothing to help with convincing anyone other than drowning the O/P. Members are not likely to read reams of information, I certainly do not...

Thanks