DogLady19 said:
Hmmm, thank you for the nice piece of trivia!
Aren't they called "Protestants" because they protested the concept of a church state??? Surely their whole objective was to separate the church from the state... at least that's how I learned the Renaissance...
But I totally agree that some Protestants do not have the concept in this day and age!
Yes and no. There is a difference of course between having an idea about something, and actually putting it into practice. A lot of the Reformers simply wanted to make reforms within the church, they never intended to leave it or become an enemy of it. They were forced out by a system that would not tolerate reform from within or without. After they were excommunicated and persecuted, they of course desired freedom to worship and believe as they pleased. Unfortunately, when they gained enough numbers and influence, many would not allow for the freedom they desired also when a minority. It was a little more complicated than that though. If Protestants allowed Catholics freedom to increase in numbers and influence, they always outlawed Protestantism and persecuted and killed them. So of course, Protestants under such threats, could not allow Catholics freedom to gain control again. Creating a vicious cycle of intolerance and persecution. The government of the United States included a mature Protestant stance upon separation of church and state, breaking the cycle. Many Reformers preached and taught this necessity before and leading up to the developement of a government truly separating the two. The following is just one example.
[SIZE=12pt]Excerpts from - [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Martin Luther - Temporal Authority: To What Extent it Should Be Obeyed[/SIZE]
(All emphasis mine)
[SIZE=12pt].............................................................................................................................................
It has gone so far that they have granted the imperfect estate of the sword and of the temporal authority not only to the estate of the bishops, but even to the pope, that most perfect estate of all; in fact, they have ascribed it to no one on earth so completely as to him! So thoroughly has the devil taken control of the sophists and the universities that they themselves do not know how they speak or teach.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]I hope, however, that I may instruct the princes and the temporal authorities in such a way that they will remain Christians-and Christ will remain Lord-and yet Christ's commands will not for their sake have to become mere counsels.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]For God the Almighty has made our rulers mad;
they actually think they can do-and order their subjects to do-whatever they please. And the subjects make the mistake of believing that they, in turn, are bound to obey their rulers in everything. It has gone so far that the rulers have begun ordering the people to get rid of certain bookshttp://www.augustana.edu/religion/lutherproject/TemporalAuthority/Certainbooks.htm[/SIZE], and to believe and conform to what the rulers prescribe. They are thereby presumptuously setting themselves in God's place, lording it over men's consciences and faith, and schooling the Holy Spirit according to their own crackbrained ideas.
[SIZE=12pt]Third. Here we must divide the children of Adam and all mankind into
two classeshttp://www.augustana.edu/religion/lutherproject/TemporalAuthority/Twoclasses.htm[/SIZE], the first belonging to the kingdom of God, the second to the kingdom of the world. Those who belong to the kingdom of God are all true believers who are in Christ and under Christ, for Christ is King and Lords in the kingdom of God, as
Psalm 2 [:6]http://www.augustana.edu/religion/lutherproject/TemporalAuthority/ScripturalLinks/Psalms 2.4-6.htm and all of Scripture says. For this reason he came into the world, that he might begin God's kingdom and establish it in the world. Therefore, he says before Pilate,
"My kingdom is not of the world, but every one who is of the truth hears my voice." [John 18:36-37]http://www.augustana.edu/religion/lutherproject/TemporalAuthority/ScripturalLinks/John 18.33-38.htm. In the gospel he continually refers to the kingdom of God, and says, "Amend your ways, the kingdom of God and his righteousness"
[Matt. 6:33]http://www.augustana.edu/religion/l...Authority/ScripturalLinks/Matthew 6.31-33.htm.
He also calls the gospel a gospel of the kingdom of God; because it teaches, governs, and upholds God's kingdom.
[SIZE=12pt]Fourth. All who are not Christians belong to the kingdom of the world and are under the law. There are few true believers, and still fewer who live a Christian life, who do not resist evil and indeed themselves do no evil.
For this reason God has provided for them a different government beyond the Christian estate and kingdom of God. He has
subjected them to the swordhttp://www.augustana.edu/religion/lutherproject/TemporalAuthority/temporalsword.htm[/SIZE] so that, even though they would like to, they are unable to practice their wickedness, and if they do practice it they cannot do so without fear or with success and impunity.
[SIZE=12pt]If this were not so, men would devour one another, seeing that the whole world is evil and that among thousands there is scarcely a single true Christian. No one could support wife and child, feed himself, and serve God. The world would be reduced to chaos
. For this reason God has ordained two governments: the spiritual, by which the Holy Spirit produces Christians and righteous people under Christ; and the temporal, which restrains the un-Christian and wicked so that-no thanks to them-they are obliged to keep still and to maintain an outward peace. Thus does St. Paul interpret the temporal sword in
Romans 13 [:3]http://www.augustana.edu/religion/lutherproject/TemporalAuthority/ScripturalLinks/Romans 13.1-4.htm[/SIZE], when he says it is not a terror to good conduct but to bad. And Peter says it is for the punishment of the wicked
[I Peter 2:14]http://www.augustana.edu/religion/l...Authority/ScripturalLinks/I Peter 2.13-17.htm.
[SIZE=12pt]To such a one we must say: Certainly it is true that Christians, so far as they themselves are concerned, are subject neither to law nor sword, have need of either. But take heed and first fill the world with real Christian before you attempt to rule it in a Christian or evangelical manner. This you will never accomplish; for the world and the masses are and always will be un-Christian, even if they are all baptized and Christian in names. Christians are few and far between (as they say is).
Therefore, it is out of the question that there should be a common Christian government over the whole world, or indeed over a single country or any considerable body of the people, for the wicked always outnumber the good. Hence, a man who would venture to govern an entire country or the world with the gospel would be like a shepherd who should put together in one fold wolves, lions, eagles, and sheep, and let them mingle freely with one another, saying, "Help yourselves, and be good and peaceful toward one another. The fold is open, there is plenty of food. You need have no fear of dogs and clubs." The sheep would doubtless keep the peace and allow themselves to be fed and governed peacefully, but they would not live long, nor would one beast survive another.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]For this reason one must carefully distinguish between these two governments. Both must be permitted to remain; the one to produce righteousness, the other to bring about external peace and prevent evil deeds. Neither one is sufficient in the world without the other. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]No one can become righteous in the sight of God by means of the temporal government, without Christ's spiritual government. Christ's government does not extend over all men; rather, Christians are always a minority in the midst of non-Christians. Now where temporal government or law alone prevails, there sheer hypocrisy is inevitable, even though the commandments be God's own. For without the Holy Spirit in the heart no one becomes truly righteous, no matter how fine the works he does. On the other hand, where the spiritual government alone prevails over land and people, there wickedness is given free rein and the door is open for all manner of rascality, for the world as a whole cannot receive or comprehend it.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]This is also why Christ did not wield the sword, or give it a place in his kingdom. For he is a king over Christians and rulers by his Holy Spirit alone, without law. Although he sanctions the sword, he did not make use of it, for it serves no purpose in his kingdom, in which there are none but the upright. Hence, David of old was not permitted to build the temple
[II Sam. 7:4-13]http://www.augustana.edu/religion/lutherproject/Scriptural Links/II Samuel 7.4-17.htm[/SIZE], because he had wielded the sword and had shed much blood. Not that he had done wrong thereby, but because he could not be a type of Christ, who without the sword was to have a kingdom of peace. It had to be built instead by Solomon, whose name in German means "Frederich" or "peaceful"; he had a peaceful kingdom, by which the truly peaceful kingdom of Christ, the real
Frederichhttp://www.augustana.edu/religion/lutherproject/TemporalAuthority/frederickwise.htm and Solomon, could be represented. Again, "during the entire building of the temple no tool of iron was heard," as the text says
[I Kings 6:7]http://www.augustana.edu/religion/lutherproject/Scriptural Links/I Kings 6.7.htm; all for this reason, that Christ, without constraint and force, without law and sword, was to have a people who would serve him willingly.
[SIZE=12pt]Thus you observe in the words of Christ quoted above from Matthew 5http://www.augustana.edu/religion/lutherproject/Scriptural Links/Matthew 5.38-42.htm[/SIZE] that he clearly teaches that Christians among themselves should have no temporal sword or law. [SIZE=12pt]He does not, however, forbid one to serve and be subject to those who do have the secular sword or law. Rather, since you do not need it and should not have it, you are to serve all the more those who have not to such heights as you and who therefore do still need it. Although you do not need to have your enemy punished, your afflicted neighbor does. You should help him that he may have peace and that his enemy might be curbed, but this is not possible unless the governing authority is honored and feared. Christ does not say, "You shall not serve the governing authority or be subject to it," but rather, "Do not resist evil"
[Matt. 5:39]http://www.augustana.edu/religion/lutherproject/TemporalAuthority/Matthew 5.38-42.htm[/SIZE], as much to say, "Behave in such a way that you bear everything, so that you may not need the governing authority to help you and serve you or be beneficial or essential for you, but that you in turn may help and serve it, being beneficial and essential to it. I would have you be too exalted and far too noble to have any need of it; it should rather have need of you."
[SIZE=12pt]Christ pursued his own office and vocation, but he did not thereby reject any other. It was not incumbent upon him to bear the sword, for he was to exercise only that function by which his kingdom is governed and which properly serves his kingdom. Now, it is not essential to his kingdom that he be a married man, a cobbler, tailor, farmer, prince, hangman, or constable;
neither is the temporal sword or law essential to it , but only God's Word and Spirit. It is by these that his people are ruled inwardly. This is the office which he also exercised then and still exercises now, always bestowing God's Word and Spirit. And in this office the apostles and all spiritual rulers had to follow him. For in order to do their job right they are so busily occupied with the spiritual sword, the Word of God, that they must perforce neglect the temporal sword and leave it to others who do not have to preach, although it is not contrary to their calling to use it, as I have said. For each one must attend to the duties of his own calling.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Therefore, although Christ did not bear or prescribe the sword, it is sufficient that he did not forbid or abolish it, but actually confirmed it; just as it is sufficient that he did not abolish the state of marriage but confirmed it, though without himself taking a wife or setting forth a teaching concerning it. He had to manifest himself wholly in connection with that estate and calling which alone expressly served his kingdom, lest from his example there should be deduced the justification or necessity of teaching or believing that the kingdom of God could not exist without matrimony and the sword and similar externals (since Christ's example is necessarily binding), when in fact it exists solely by God's Word and Spirit. This was and had to be Christ's peculiar function as the Supreme King in this kingdom. Since not all Christians have this same function (although they are entitled to it), it is fitting that they should have some other external office by which God may also be served.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Part Two[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]How Far Temporal Authority Extends[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]The temporal government has laws which extend no further than to life and property and external affairs on earth, for God cannot and will not permit anyone but himself to rule over the soul. Therefore, where the temporal authority presumes to prescribe laws for the soul, it encroaches upon God's government and only misleads souls and destroys them. We want to make this so clear that everyone will grasp it, and that our fine gentlemen, the princes and bishops, will see what fools they are when they seek to coerce the people with their laws and commandments into believing this or that. When a man-made law is imposed upon the soul to make it believe this or that as its human author may prescribe, there is certainly no word of God for it. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]If there is no word of God for it, then we cannot be sure whether God wishes to have it so, for we cannot be certain that something which he does not command is pleasing to him. Indeed, we are sure that it does not please him, for he desires that our faith be based simply and entirely on his divine word alone. He says in Matthew 18 [16:18], "On this rock I will build my church."; and in John 10 [:27,14,5], "My sheep hear my voice and know me; however, they will not hear the voice of a stranger, but flee from him." From this it follows that with such a wicked command the temporal power is driving souls to eternal death. For it compels them to believe as right and certainly pleasing to God that which is in fact uncertain, indeed, certain to be displeasing to him since there is no clear word of God for it. Whoever believes something to be right which is wrong or uncertain is denying that truth, which is God himself. He is believing in lies and errors, and counting as right that which is wrong.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Hence, it is the height of folly when they command that one shall believe the Church, the fathers, and the councils, though there be no word of God for it. It is not the church but the devil's apostles who command such things,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] for the church commands nothing unless it knows for certain that it is God's word. As St. Peter puts it, "Whoever speaks, let him speak as the word of God" [I Pet. 4:11]. It will be a long time, however, before they can ever prove that the decrees of the councils are God's word.
Still more foolish is it when they assert that kings, princes, and the mass of mankind believe thus and so. My dear man, we are not baptized into kings, or princes, or even into the mass of mankind, but into Christ and God himself. Neither are we called kings, princes, or common folk, but Christians. No one shall or can command the soul unless he is able to show it the way to heaven; but this no man can do, only God alone. Therefore, in matters which concern the salvation of souls nothing but God's word shall be taught and accepted.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Again, consummate fools though they are, they must confess that they have no power over souls. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]For no human being can kill a soul or give it life, or conduct it to heaven or hell. If they will not take our word for it, Christ himself will attend to it strongly enough where he says in the tenth chapter of Matthew, "Do not fear those who kill the body, and after that have nothing that they can do; rather fear him who after he has killed the body, has power to condemn to hell."
I think it is clear enough here that the soul is taken out of all human hands and is placed under the authority of God alone.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Now tell me: How much wit must there be in the head of a person who imposes commands in an area where he has no authority whatsoever? Would you not judge the person insane who commanded the moon to shine whenever he wanted to? How well would it go if Leipzigers were to impose laws on us Wittenbergers, or if, conversely, we in Wittenberg were to legislate for the people of Leipzig! They would certainly send the lawmakers a thank-offering of hellebore to purge their brains and cure their sniffles. Yet our emperor and clever princes are doing just that today. They are allowing pope, bishop, and sophists to lead them on-one blind man leading the other-to command their subjects to believe, without God's word, whatever they please. And still they would be known as Christian princes, God forbid![/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]A court should and must be quite certain and clear about everything if it is to render judgment. But the thoughts and inclinations of the soul can be known to no one but God. Therefore, it is futile and impossible to command or compel anyone by force to believe this or that. The matter must be approached in a different way. Force will not accomplish it. And I am surprised at the big fools, for they themselves all say: De occultis non Ecclesia, the church does not judge secret matters. If the spiritual rule of the church governs only public matters, how dare the mad temporal authority judge and control such a secret, spiritual, hidden matter as faith?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Furthermore, every man runs his own risk in believing as he does, and he must see to it himself that he believes rightly. As nobody else can go to heaven or hell for me, so nobody else can believe or disbelieve for me; as nobody else can open or close heaven or hell for me, so nobody else can drive me to belief or unbelief. How he believes or disbelieves is a matter for the conscience of each individual,
and since this takes nothing away from the temporal authority the latter should be content to attend to its own affairs and let men believe this or that as they are able and willing, and constrain no one by force. For faith is a free act, to which no one can be forced. Indeed, it is a work of God in the spirit, not something which outward authority should compel or create. Hence arises the common saying, found also in Augustine, "No one can or ought to be forced to believe."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Moreover, the blind, wretched fellows fail to see how utterly hopeless and impossible a thing they are attempting. For no matter how harshly they lay down the law, or how violently they rage, they can do no more than force an outward compliance of the mouth and the hand; the heart they cannot compel, though they work themselves to a frazzle.
For the proverb is true: :Thoughts are tax free." Why do they persist in trying to force people to believe from the heart when they see that it is impossible? In so doing they only compel weak consciences to lie, to disavow, and to utter what is not in their hearts. They thereby load themselves down with dreadful alien sins, for all the lies and false confessions which such weak consciences utter fall back upon him who compels them. Even if their subjects were in error, it would be much easier simply to let them err than to compel them to lie and to utter what is not in their hearts.
In addition, it is not right to prevent evil by something even worse.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Would you like to know why God ordains that the temporal princes must offend so frightfully? I will tell you. God has given them to a base mind [Rom. 1:28] and will make an end of them just as he does of the spiritual nobility.
For my ungracious lords, the pope and the bishops, are supposed to be bishops and preach God's word. This they leave undone, and have become temporal princes who govern with laws which concern only life and property. How completely they have turned things topsy-turvy! They are supposed to be ruling souls inwardly by God's word; so they rule castles, cities, lands, and people outwardly, torturing, souls with unspeakable outrages.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Similarly, the temporal lords are suppose to govern lands and people outwardly. This they leave undone. They can do no more than strip and fleece, heap tax upon tax and tribute upon tribute, letting loose here a bear and there a wolf. Besides this, there is no justice, integrity, or truth to be found among them. They behave worse than any thief or scoundrel, and their temporal rule has sunk quite as low as that of the spiritual tyrants.
For this reason God so perverts their minds also, that they rush on into the absurdity of trying to exercise a spiritual rule over souls, just as their counterparts try to establish temporal rule. They blithely heap alien sins upon themselves and incur the hatred of God and man, one scoundrel with the other. Then they lay all the blame on the gospel, and instead of confessing their sin they blaspheme God and say that our preaching has brought about that which their perverse wickedness has deserved-and still unceasingly serves-just as the Romans did when they were destroyed. Here then you have God's decree concerning the high and mighty. They are not to believe it, however, lest this stern decree of God be hindered by their repentance.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]But, you say: Paul said in Romans 13 [:1] that every soul [
seele] should be subject to the governing authority; and Peter says that we should be subject to every human ordinance [I Pet. 2:13]. Answer: Now you are on the right track, for these passages are in my favor. St. Paul is speaking of the governing authority.
Now you have just heard that no one but God can have authority over souls. Hence, St. Paul cannot possibly be speaking of any obedience except where there can be corresponding authority. From this it follows that he is not speaking of faith, to the effect that temporal authority should have the right to command faith. He is speaking rather of external things, that they should be ordered and governed on earth. His words too make this perfectly clear, where he prescribes limits for both authority and obedience, saying, "Pay all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, honor to whom honor is due, respect to whom respect is due" [Rom. 13:7], Temporal obedience and authority, you see, apply only to taxes revenue, honor, and respect. Again, where he says, "The governing authority is not a terror to good conduct, but to bad" [Rom. 13:3],
he again so limits the governing authority that it is not to have the mastery over faith or the word of God, but over evil works.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]If your prince or temporal ruler commands you to side with the pope, to believe thus and so, or to get rid of certain books, you should say, "It is not fitting that Lucifer should sit at the side of God.
Gracious sir, I owe you obedience in body and property; command me within the limits of your authority on earth, and I will obey. But if you command me to believe or to get rid of certain books, I will not obey; for then you are a tyrant and overreach yourself, commanding where you have neither the right or the authority," etc. Should he seize your property on account of this and punish such disobedience, then blessed are you; thank God that you are worthy to suffer for the sake of the divine word. Let him rage, fool that he is; he will meet his judge. For I tell you, if you fail to withstand him, if you give in to him and let him take away your faith and your books, you have truly denied God.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Again, you say, "The temporal power is not forcing men to believe; it is simply seeing to it externally that no one deceives the people by false doctrine; how could heretics otherwise be restrained?" Answer: This the bishops should do; it is a function entrusted to them and not to the princes. Heresy can never be restrained by force. One will have to tackle the problem in some other way, for heresy must be opposed and dealt with otherwise than with the sword. Here God's word must do the fighting. If it does not succeed, certainly the temporal power will not succeed either, even if it were to drench the world in blood. Heresy is a spiritual matter which you cannot hack to pieces with iron, consume with fire, or drown in water. God's word alone avails here, as Paul says in II Corinthians 10 {:4-5], "our weapons are not carnal, but mighty in God to destroy every argument and proud obstacle that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and to take every thought captive in the service of Christ."[/SIZE]