Son of Perdition

[waquinas]

(tomwebster;58086)
waquinas,I have no idea what you are saying half of the time. I just want you and every one to know what I am saying.I am saying Satan IS the son of perdition. Satan IS the ONLY son of perdition. Perdition is another name for Satan. Judas is NOT the son of perdition. Judas is not in Hell, fact is no one is in hell right now, unless you want to call being on the wrong side of the gulf (Luke 16)hell. I believe Judas was forgiven and will be in his seat with the 24 in heaven.
well just so you and everyone are clear. Since you appeared to be agreeing with me on who "them" and "they" are in John 17 am not sure how you include Satan as being "one of them". Clearly verse 12 indicates that "none (them implied) are lost", except the "son of perdition". Did you not agree with me that the pronouns in verse 12 refered to the disciples there, believers, followers of Jesus ministry? I do understand you think John 17:12 refers to Satan as the son. Just not sure given who you said you understood "them" and "they" to be how you resolve Satan as being part of those definitions.And just so you are clear, my only claim is that Judas in Jhn 17.12 is the person being refered to as the son of perdition. I make no such claims about other references to that son. The ONLY people claiming that our understanding of verse 12 requires Judas to be in Hell or judged already are the people agreeing with you. Which is rather silly people telling me what I believe about Judas's fate. Judas at that point in time is not even dead, how could I think he was in hell? There is nothing in my posts or in my understanding of verse 12 that allows me to say I know where Judas is now or will be in the future. Am glad to know you think you know where he is.

 

[Jordan]

(treeoflife;58087)
(thesuperjag;58073)
So to your opinion and others, Christ is not Saviour of the world?
No, I just believe Jesus is referring to Judas.If Christ says that the "son of perdition" is Judas, well that contradicts your statement and quite a few scriptures. (John 4:42, I John 4:14) And the fact that He lied, and you know liars can't go to Heaven. (unless they repent) God can't lie. (Romans 3:4) nor can He sin. (II Corinthians 5:21, I Peter 2:22, I John 3:5, Hebrews 4:15)

 

[waquinas]

(kriss;58090)
4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. 6I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Men is just as easily disicples followers as it is just 12 apostels this is mans narrow view not Gods and pronouns in scripture are not always the same as English so if you are basing your entire reasong on pronouns be very careful
Am not really sure you are saying here. God's Word in John 17 gives us definitions for these pronouns, we do not need to think about it or insert the opinions of others.

 

[Christina]

Does anyone here get who Satan was? How have you fallen oh son of the morning he was the anointed cherub the most beautiful/knowledgeable Angel ever created he guarded the mercy seat He was one of Gods Anointed a son of God if Christ always was you dont think he knew Satan Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

 

[tomwebster]

(waquinas;58093)
...God's Word in John 17 gives us definitions for these pronouns, ...
Do you know Greek? Greek is the language of the New Testament, not English. The New Testament is written with Greek rules not English rules.Added:Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost,(G622), but the son of perdition;(G684); that the scripture might be fulfilled. You did not understand my response in #52, maybe I didn't make it clear enough. Son of perdition in verse 12 is NOT included in the "them" of verse 12

 

[Christina]

(waquinas;58093)
Am not really sure you are saying here. God's Word in John 17 gives us definitions for these pronouns, we do not need to think about it or insert the opinions of others.
The Word was not written in English Words that have multiple meaning are often translated at the translators best assumption,of how he perceived them when you have a language for example Hebrew they used the same word for he,she,it the same is true of Greek so if something is translated "it" in English it could just as easily been originally "he" not a big deal most often but if you are going to use pronouns to cause a discrepancy in Gods Word you better be careful

 

[waquinas]

(kriss;58094)
Does anyone here get who Satan was? How have you fallen oh son of the morning he was the anointed cherub the most beautiful/knowledgeable Angel ever created he guarded the mercy seat He was one of Gods Anointed a son of God if Christ always was you dont think he knew Satan Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
We all get that i think. What some of us do not get is how that matters in verse 12. The "son of perdition" in verse 12 is clearly lost and also clearly part of "them" as implied by "none of them is lost, but" . Even you have said "they" and "them" in these verses refers to people following Jesus during his ministry on earth. So our problem is how Satan becomes one of "them".

 

[waquinas]

(kriss;58096)
The Word was not written in English Words that have multiple meaning are often translated at the translators best assumption,of how he perceived them when you have a language for example Hebrew they used the same word for he,she,it the same is true of Greek so if something is translated "it" in English it could just as easily been originally "he" not a big deal most often but if you are going to use pronouns to cause a discrepancy in Gods Word you better be careful
AM sorry, DO WHAT???? I do not know Greek, but every language I do know has pronouns and there are rules for using them. In writing you must define a reference the first time one is used. It would surprise me to know Greek would be any different in that respect. In fact a quick concordance check tells me "autos" in verse 12 is a pronoun. The use of any pronoun is only understandable if everyone reading or listening agrees on who or whom it refers to. In this case it is easy for us as John has said 3 times who or whom these pronouns refer to (2, 6,12). In NONE of those definitions, (and you agreed already on this) would anyone here include Satan.Have already said I have no idea where Judas ends up and that "son of perdition" elsewhere refers to someone else. What remaining descrepancy do you see in my view of verse 12?

 

[Christina]

Christ is talking to God saying none are lost father except one Im sure God understood just fineAnd why is it most commentaries bible experts clearly understand this to be Satan, the devilIm not saying we just take the popular opinion the Lord knows I do not but this causes a contradiction in Gods Word.

 

[waquinas]

(kriss;58098)
Christ is talking to God saying none are lost father except one Im sure God understood just fine
Am not God. Am happy though that John made sure we had a definition for those pronouns. IF someone here is claiming to be God or having a definition from God for "them" in verse 12 that is outside what John wrote then I guess no one could argue against that. Again if that works for you Kriss am ok with it, really!

 

[Jordan]

(waquinas;58097)
We all get that i think. What some of us do not get is how that matters in verse 12. The "son of perdition" in verse 12 is clearly lost and also clearly part of "them" as implied by "none of them is lost, but" . Even you have said "they" and "them" in these verses refers to people following Jesus during his ministry on earth. So our problem is how Satan becomes one of "them".
And another thing, the only person who can be the son of perdition is the Wicked who knew God's Word in and out, in short have FULL knowledge of God's Words but he did not keep it.By the way, did Judas ever by chance have full knowledge of God's Words?

 

[Christina]

What I dont understand your post and John wrote in Greek he didnt have anything to do with the English translations

 

[tomwebster]

(waquinas;58099)
... I do not know Greek, but every language I do know has pronouns and there are rules for using them. ...
Rule, your rules??? Look at 2 Thess 2:6-7;2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. The "he's here are two different subjects.

 

[Christina]

Its not about language anyway you are the one making it so, by insisting it says what it does not causing contradictions and anti biblical teachings based on pronouns. Im done with this conversation unless one produce scripture showing Judas was prejudged on some speacial judgement day to be utterly destroyed/forever condemned then you have nothing but an assumption

 

[Christina]

You might find this 1599 first print bible comentary enlighting hereJoh 17:1117:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be {c} one, as we [are].© He prays that his people may peaceably agree and be joined together in one, that as the Godhead is one, so they may be of one mind and one consent together. Joh 17:1517:15 {4} I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.(4) He shows what type of deliverance he means: not that they should be in no danger, but that in being preserved from all they might prove by experience that the doctrine of salvation is true, which doctrine they received from his mouth to deliver to others.Do you not think he did not want their deliverance to be by One Lost the Son of Perdition Satanand this is what he was refering to

 

[waquinas]

Am certainly no Bible commentator - but I did some google and these guys are.Here is a result of their comments on John 17 verse 12 regarding "son of perdition" identityAdam Clarke - ADAM CLARKE'S BIBLE COMMENTARY - JudasChuck Smith – JudasDavid Guzik – JudasMatthew Henry – JudasDavid Brown – Judas – with a twist that Judas was never “given” to the Son, ie not really one of “them”.John Wesley – JudasIVP commentary – JudasB W Johnson – Judashttp://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/4027/john17.html - Judas - but connects the “son of perdition” reference as Judas being the personification of Satan in this case. Which I would have to agree.Wycliff – JudasMarsh Bible commentary – JudasTertullian – JudasAugustine – JudasGregory of Nyssa – Judas – but an interesting and maybe enlightening explanation for some – “For in Scripture the term child of wrath is used, and son of perdition John 17:12, and product of a viper ; and in such names surely no community of nature is apparent. For Judas, who is called the son of perdition, is not in his substance the same with perdition, according to what we understand by the word . For the signification of the man in Judas is one thing, and that of perdition is another. And the argument may be established equally from an opposite instance. For those who are called in a certain sense children of light, and children of the day 1 Thessalonians 5:5, are not the same with light and day in respect of the definition of their nature, and the stones are made Abraham's children when they claim their kindred with him by faith and works; and those who are led by the Spirit of God, as the Apostle says, are called Sons of God Romans 8:14, without being the same with God in respect of nature; and one may collect many such instances from the inspired Scripture, by means of which deceit, like some image decked with the testimonies of Scripture, masquerades in the likeness of truth.”John Gill – JudasJ W McGarvey – JudasPhilip Y Pendleton – JudasJohn Darby – JudasCanon Wadsworth - Judas

 

[waquinas]

(tomwebster;58104)
Rule, your rules??? Look at 2 Thess 2:6-7;2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. The "he's here are two different subjects.
THanks for playing Tom. I am certainly no expert at the rules, but am certain there are rules about using pronouns. There must be in order to avoid confusion.You are correct about the pronouns here refering to two different persons/subjects. However am not sure why you see that as making your point about John 17.12. The writer in Thessaloians is defining 'he' just as John did in chapter 17, define it and use it. It is not a difficult concept to grasp.Here in Thessalonians the writer earlier (you left this part of the Chapter out) identifies the first "he" in verse 6 as being the anti-christ - the son of predition. In verse 7 'he" is redefined as someone or anyone restraining the lawlessness who is then taken out of the way. Or as KJV renders it "he who now letteth, until he be taken out". Those two "he" in verse 7 are the same individual and not to be confused with the 'he" in the prior verse. In verse 7 "he" is given the general definition of anyone doing something (restraining or letteth-ing depending on your translation version) against the "son of perdition" mentioned in the prior verse.

 

[tomwebster]

(waquinas;58119)
Am certainly no Bible commentator - ....
You can quote all the commentators you want, I will quote Paul: 2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Course, maybe he was talking about Judas also :angel10:

Did you read the addition I made to post #85? In the 9 minutes between making the original post and adding the new part several more posted had been added. I never was a fast typist.

 

[Christina]

You are so right Tom there is only one who ever dared to rise himself above God and it wasn't Judas. Read your companion Bible it breaks down the Greek and/or Hebrew in the right column you can download it from the top page of this site.

 

[Jordan]

(kriss;58129)
You are so right Tom there is only one who ever dared to rise himself above God and it wasn't Judas. Read your companion Bible it breaks down the Greek and/or Hebrew in the right column you can download it from the top page of this site.
I agree as well. Amen! All those commentators waquinas quoted makes me wonder that if people today really believe Lord Yeshua / Jesus Christ as Saviour of the world, (John 4:42, I John 4:14) the Saviour of ALL men. (I Timothy 4:10) Anyway, that's just sickening...